Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Daniel Paul.'s Forum Activity | 316 posts in 3 forums


Forum: Experimenter's Corner Fri, 29 May 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

after all what was recently said...for my own life, I see the need of a catalyst of some sort because thinking cannot go beyond thinking, yet it tries hard ,exactly like my lawnmower cannot fly from Ireland to the north pole....well the lawnmower did not try yet..

A catalyst is triggering and participating somehow in a reaction, the result will not contain the catalyst in it...it is vital to start and help with a reaction...

before any insight, revealing, meditation, kundalini, turning on of the other process etc etc etc something (must) happens to trigger somehow, such event!

For me , I mean not as a Universal truth, yet it could be, what is found in our unhappy lives is such a trigger; to be so called unhappy is part of a process which has a purpose to bring us from a the known to somewhere else unknown.., it is practically a mean to awake some sort of guidance for us, when I sense what it is!!

to seek for happiness is again finding for more unhappiness, yet of course from time to time some rewards do work up to a point, the analyser has its own world and so its own rewards, always containing in all cases some suffering of some sort(fear ,anxiety,more cravings etc etc etc).......when thought is touching such trigger with its dirty hands, then nothing new, radical, different and in goodness never happens..the trigger does not work.....so there is no other process turned on, shitty life..yet pretending that all is fine of course..and for some it can be yes...this demands possession and means to do all what I want, and this is going to be stolen from others of course as alone I do not even survive...

well of course here I mention suffering-sorrow as a catalyst..so far I do not see any other..if there are some I do not see them....

In what I am saying , it is then somehow sorrow which decides instead of me as an analyser where to go...as sorrow cannot be analytically solved, understood etc..it is the perfect trigger........

then at some stage,when having spent much time in this corner it can be perceived for what it is, a warning ,a signal that what I am up to is wrong, when it happens; we know sorrow because we do not listen, and we do not listen because we do not know about such warning, which can be perceived as a helper of some sort....

then each time something is wrong in my thoughts , this warning can eventually be operational,if I can sense it each time....

A question with no answer sought: let us say that I am not loony, what or who is guiding then ??

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Mon, 15 Jun 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Dan McDermott wrote: Thanks for your posts. I always find them interesting as I'm sure others do.

Well I appreciate , the point to write here is to try to say to others a quite precise experiment reproducing itself differently each time but on the same wavelength, so then it is fine...I was thinking about leaving soon, so far each time this idea came to me something, like here your words, happens, so I keep on writing...

I use that post to say that behind the word sorrow I put this: frustration, discontentment, mental suffering, boredom, sadness, depression, meaningless life, fear, anxiety, dissatisfaction, etc...so it is quite a wide spectrum... what a job for a single word... the word dukkha in the past times of the Buddha would have such job...but this is an old word,which is more than fine, but now the meaning is gone ...

All those words to signify that whatever I-we are up to, it is never good enough,as long as it is in the field of the analyser...

when the otherness is there ,there is none of that is what I know..such life was free of sorrow , fear, etc..and meaningful..

sorrow says: I am here to help, please leave me alone, do not touch me...etc

and I say yes that is precisely the point...and for me it is not coincidence.

Here I find too a remarkable possible more than a coincidence, that it works like physical pain up to a point...this point being : I do not know if physical pain is a catalyst too,as it is obviously a symptom...so when I am in some physical pain, I recently had gall stone so a heavy pain for 8 hours ish I tried to be aware of that..I did come to any obvious observation yet..I must precise that I am not at all a masochist :-))

the thing is that pain whether mental or physical could use the same "program", the same stream...this is more playing with logic for the moment and may be just wrong..

thanks..the other dan..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Wed, 17 Jun 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Dan McDermott wrote:

max greene wrote:

If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

That sounds right...it's the 'truly realized' part that seems, for me, to be the difficulty.

max greene wrote: The difficulty for all of us.

hello Max and the other Dan....

without the so called self producing something very painful, unknown, perceived as a suffering so immediately rejected mentally yet this does not work at all, , without that I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..as for me this is what it is about....I have nothing as such against intellectual ideals but so far in my life, this brought nothing in goodness at all, never but cruel delusions and sorrows ...when something else did brought goodness..

so far I only came across experiment wise, since very young, about what is behind pain as a symptom and a catalyst to leave free in order to force the analyser to totally distrust itself WITHOUT ANY MOTIVE BEHIND, so that includes what is unconscious.The "no motive behind" is vital I explain why for me it is so, down below..

This "doing" , this defeat, implies that the usual analytical bla bla bla goes on and that for once "something " can hear it and not listen to this BS...this is one talent of sorrow as a catalyst to be able to force the analyser to sort of freeze its dictatorship, even for a second, because for a second it will be living sorrow, which is its true mental state...it is like a switch-on button that his living sorrow is, because for such "time", the analyser is not the leader of the brain....

in such moment, the analyser still is there active as usual and somehow sorrow as a catalyst plays its part in creating "something X" which allows anyone in such state to not listen to the usual analytical bla bla bla .....sorrow is then lived, it can be so ONLY if there is no desire to go beyond and even to solve it.....this includes again the unconscious..

I know that for me because since I have seen for myself the depth and strength of this unconscious, it is unconscious for the superficial analyser , I know that in most cases this unconscious had been hiding the real roots of my own deep deep pain of sorrow, the roots showed themselves by leaving sorrow alone, me is defeated...so to actually live sorrow, if it is a real doing with no intention but just somehow to leave it alone, is a "realising" factor...something else not there before ,comes into being and start functioning...the analysing system can negate itself when in pain....

If there is another way or other ways I really have nothing against that at all...but it is then possible too that there is nothing else at all to start with..but sorrow...this goes along with k words actually..it seemed quite "easy" for him..

this is what I know for me.....

but the subject is huge...here I stick to an eventual starting of another process by being defeated by sorrow which if let alone by turning on another process is allowing the discovery of what is that pain of life about....another movement has started then , what may come next is not any more in the analyser capacities anyway...

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 18 Jun 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

That is, thought identified with an 'idea' has continuance as the 'I' but a thing that continues is constantly decaying, it knows birth and death. In that sense it continues , but the 'thing' that continues can never renew itself. There is renewal only when there is an 'ending'. Say, for example, that I am worried over a problem which I am trying to solve, and I keep on worrying. What happens ? There is no renewal, is there? The problem continues day after day, week after week, year after year. But when the worrying is ended, there is a renewal, and then the problem has a different significance.

....death as an absolute potential always present is a very "relaxing trick"..in fact death like sorrow and many other right living is producing the same "mental chemical reaction".....I mean, the state of mind where the search for a meaning to a no life is gone...it is not that it is found or not found, such question, and all search as an adult caught in suffering like we all are despite the negation of that fact , is not asked or a subject at all....the end of suffering means the birth of "something else" X...

so death I find that vital to like sorrow is....of course those are not subjects ,as this is what we fear most..bearing in mind that fear means : running away....fear is for me a no word, a poor symbol, an incomplete symbol...

if one starts being conscious that this "no word" fear, hides a running away...then inquiry can start somehow...the word fear is a huge mistake for me..

now about the problem I am trying to solve as in k's example..if the problem is deeply known it will be solved by the very seeing of its roots is what I know, meaning the analyser is not the one which does that..we already are entering here in the missing process competencies, this "world" already has a very different taste than ordinary life caught in thought....what I have observed here too is this : I feel let us say awfully down, to use more words that the usual ones...the analyser is trying to solve that, to get rid of it would be more adequate.

Often the reality was that the analyser always finds many reasons for such state awful of mind, money, work, the neighbours, society, politician, the priest, the left ,the right,death, lack of this, lack of that etc up to name everything it can remember or imagine , then it becomes an activist in some fields or a slave to the master, same energy behind ...the analyser tried to search everywhere but NEVER considered that the problem could be itself...this is an effect of the dividing analytical program, this produces too the so called completion for example, which in fact is a process of elimination directly originated from the analytical capacities...it just does its blind work in all fields including where it should never go..

anyway...what I have observed each time of crisis lived and not escaped, so again the sorrow of it must be left free without any search for anything..this is the immense difficulty of it, what I have observed is this..when the root problem related to the sorrow, the pain the awful state etc is found , not once the analyser had been able to find it, never........... and I stay with that for now..as I have to go.....

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 25 Jun 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

max greene wrote: Dan,

It might be that this "other energy" is in the understanding of the limitations and the errors inherent in thinking and thought (the "self.") There is then an abandonment of thinking -- which is the "time" of entropy and becoming.

max

Dan McDermott wrote: It would seem that what is necessary for thought to no longer 'move', control, in this sphere is, as K. said somewhere, for the brain to see its own limitation; that thought can never, being the past, the known, understand the 'unknown', i.e.. That its creation of the 'self', the 'I' for its own security and continuity ultimately gives neither... But how does this take place?

Max and Dan, as far as I understand something, if there is no sorrow, pain, suffering, anxiety, frustration, discontentment and so on, I do not see one single reason why the thinking process is going to change anything at all...2500 years of man's insane history shows that alas, this is a fact..apart from a few exceptions in 2500 years..but look the four noble truth of the buddha, it is about dukkha , so suffering etc and what k said about suffering too...

the thing ,for me, is that in many talks, suffering and so what is unconscious for the analyser are out of the way as it could have been k's state of the brain, but as to other participant they have not solved those problems and the talk goes on as if they dit solve suffering and all that....

Lately , I am not even sure about security and even survival instinct, as you mention security the other dan, because based on the revealing of the analysing program it could well be instead , closer to the origin , the fact that the analyser can only analyse the known...when it meets something unknown, it just can't work, because it analyses the past only, including the 1 micro second past, so this movement when the analyser does to go back to something known instead of staying with the unknown unable to analyse is translated by the analyser as a search for security and survival instinct....well now I think that I have seen that this is false.. does this change much ?

Yes absolutely....if there is no security seeking and survival instinct...we are even more in the error than we may think....

instead of that there is just a proper functioning,and we human do not function properly with at least 80% of the brain gone...

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 25 Jun 2015
Topic: The Doctrine of the 'Moon'

Patricia Hemingway wrote: And - in genuine inquiry - K is not the authority. As he very well understood - there is no authority.

Hello Patricia, just passing by the neighbourhood to say a quick hello cup of tea and sandwiches..

would you agree to say that k was in fact "simply" and as factually as possible telling his life's story in the very depth of it and not some intellectual guesses or whatever else, false...having been in touch for himself with something so unusual and in goodness in his life that he had to speak of it all his life, probably seeing that in that direction lies all non human answers to our petty insane problems ??

no need for an answer, it is more to say hello ...

Nice visiting you..

Bye now ..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Fri, 26 Jun 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Then this has brought many deep vision about my personal own roots disorder and some global vision which I do not really know about their validity; nevertheless they are in my brain..like there had been somehow unknown creation and movement within the limited even if huge perimeter of matter, creation and movement so no big bang with expansion, like the root of "me" could originally simply be the vital need to differentiate each one so each me as not obviously you, to physically differentiate one with the environment, as well as metaphysically separate each me from the environment in order to factually create the analyser ,which is a vital survival tool..like there is no evolution of species but changes and possibly was included from the very beginning the global intention behind, what the Universe would have a motive? this is not krishnamurtian by the way ..but I know that when k mention motive he only mentions analytical ones..by the way ,change, was the real meaning of the word evolution long ago..then "we" ( leaders of the actual empire) included long into that word a movement from the worse to the better.., behind was an evil plan to intellectually justify all colonisation so wars,killing,staling etc ,because of this argument: look at the universe and our evolution, there is no alternative but to fight each other, to be in competition etc etc

As well as now there is for me this involuntary questioning of security and survival instinct as roots, I am not sure any more that this is so the root...I see something behind that, so as such security and survival instinct are not root subjects...I see the simple functioning of the analyser which cannot analyse the unknown so it cannot live it at all...and instead of understanding all that it does not even try out of laziness and decides that there is a quest for security and a quest for survival at any cost...for me this is not true,but again this argument is so welcome for any power...it cut us from deep truth

Well what is fact is simply always passionate....and amazingly brings some peace with itself....like real history and not the false one we are told is in fact interesting...and a real threat to the gangsters leading the world, the real and factual history of the past 120 years still have to be written...

like I don't see how our possible ancestors, some big apes with so many missing links that it sounds much like a joke of our dear scientist slaves of the powers for money and fame ,so how our alleged ancestors would have anything to see with our insanity, not is it the alleged past where we are supposed to have spend all our time fighting each other which for someone having a bit of clue about food searching, hunting, and producing is just impossible ..cooperation and sharing was necessary the basement of societies long ago..then something got wrong and still is up to now..

when all this insanity for me is just the absence of the other process(es) not turned on which drives us mad insane as we are..

So there are at least in us two totally different processes , one analyses to create means to physically live, this process has a polarity, a duality base, which is extracting the analyser from the present in order for itself to be able to analyse; its field of competences are the means , the tools etc,

the other one is not separated from the present this on is for anything else but tools, practicality ....it does not function on memories...

both are vital and must function together which they do when both are turned on...

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Sun, 05 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

QUESTION: Can one help others by influencing them consciously?

KRISHNAJI: If you think you are wiser than anybody else, then you interfere. I would never voluntarily interfere with anybody unless they asked me to interfere and asked my advice and questioned me. Then I would give my opinion, but unasked I should never think of interfering. Why should you interfere with another? It may be his karma to walk a different path, to walk in a different direction, to have his mind differently composed from yours; and if you force him to adapt himself to you, you are doing him wrong.

QUESTION: For a practical mystic what would be the most effective way of helping others to reach Liberation? By becoming a fit channel for love and peace?

KRISHNAJI: I think the best way of helping others to reach Liberation is by reaching it yourself. If you had not reached it, and talked vaguely about it, you would soon be found out. The moment you are liberated, or struggling for Liberation, you do become a channel; but I dislike the word channel because it implies that you are acting for somebody else, and that somebody else is master over you, which personally I do not like.

QUESTION: What qualities do you consider most necessary for those who would be your disciples?

KRISHNAJI: It all depends. Suppose you went to a painter and asked him what qualities were necessary to become a painter, it would be very difficult for him to answer you. In the same way it would be difficult if you went to a musician, a composer or a writer and said: "Look here, I want to become what you are." He could only teach you the technique; he cannot give you the qualities of a great artist.

QUESTION: Do you look on the work of the World-Teacher as that of teaching individual men the way to liberation, only, or also as inspiring civilisation with new ideals in all departments -in art and religion, as well as in political and social life?

KRISHNAJI: I will explain my answer with a simile. We go into a garden and see a rose in magnificent bloom. One person who is an artist merely thinks of that rose in terms of painting; another who looks at that rose will go away and meditate; a third will translate that delight into some social activity. People approach religion in the same way as they approach that rose; it depends on the individual, on his temperament, his point of view, his idea of how best he can translate it to the outer world. For instance, say I am interested in education. I want to translate that Liberation in terms of educational ideals and to put it before young people, and children, so as to make them grow according to those ideals. Another person, seeing that Liberation, might be a keen social worker and might translate it in social terms and so help people to attain it.

QUESTION: How should suppression be used in control of the self?

KRISHNAJI: There should be no suppression. You know what happens when you kill some poison on the surface -that same poison will break out again somewhere else. If you try to cure a sore on the body without curing its real cause, it will come out somewhere else. I should never personally suppress anything, for the moment you do so it comes out in another form; but you should learn to control it and to transmute it -and translate it into activity.

QUESTION: What would you define as intelligent revolt?

KRISHNAJI: I feel every person should be in revolt because he should not mould himself to anyone's pattern. You should not mould yourselves to me any more than to somebody else. But in revolting you should be intelligent; that means that you should use the accumulation of your experience, use your intelligence as your guiding point, and revolt with that guide always in view, not just kick blindly, because that means that you are creating karma.

QUESTION: Some of those who in life are acquiring Liberation may have made certain ties which must be fulfilled, but for the younger people who have not formed such ties, would you say it meant not incurring them or incurring them in a new way?

KRISHNAJI: I have always wanted to attain Liberation; I have always wanted to come near the Buddha so that there should be no barrier between Him and myself. I let nothing interfere with that desire: I put aside all other desires; I said, I want to arrive at a certain stage as soon as I can, and anything which interferes must be set aside, must be conquered. I incurred no responsibility, which would come, in the way of my desire, and I have attained it. But do not think I mean that if you are longing to marry, longing to paint, that you should stop yourselves.

QUESTION: Is it not true that action done as duty and with detachment does not make karma?

KRISHNAJI: Yes, I think so.

QUESTION: In The Kingdom of Happiness you said it does not matter what is the degree of evolution of the individual; does that mean that at every degree of evolution one can attain Liberation?

KRISHNAJI: I am sure of it. Take a Sudra (of the lowest caste): if his desire to attain is so burning, so intense, that he throws aside everything, he will attain.

QUESTION: Do you mean by Liberation only a degree or stage of Liberation? Is it union with the Manifested Deity or with the Absolute?

KRISHNAJI: To me Liberation means, as I said yesterday, the destruction of the separate self, because it is the separate self, the self that is so dominant in each one that creates karma that binds. Once you have destroyed that self you are liberated and it does not matter whether you belong to the Manifested or to the Unmanifested, whether you belong to this house or that house, to this stage or that stage, for these are only technical terms.

QUESTION: If Liberation is the cessation of self, why do you associate happiness with it any more than unhappiness?

KRISHNAJI: 'Where the idea to live is a mistake and the idea not to live is an error...' You can call it happiness or unhappiness -Nirvana, Kailas, Heaven- until we find a word that everyone understands.

Early Writings EERDE GATHERING 1927, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Eerde, Holland, 1927

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Mon, 06 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Public Talk, March 7th, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Aren't you under the belief that your thoughts are separate from yourself? This very question implies that, doesn't it? - that there is the controller and the controlled, the observer and the observed. Now, do we know this process to be a fact, that there is the observer and the observed, the controller and the controlled? Is this separation real? It is real in the sense that we are indulging in it. But is it not a trick of the mind? Please, in this question a great deal is involved, so don't accept or deny, don't defend or put aside what I am suggesting. Most of you believe that the thinker is separate, the higher self, the Atman, the watcher, dominating the lower self, and so on. Why is there this separation? Isn't this separation still within the field of the mind? When you say the thinker is the Atman, the watcher, and the thoughts are separate, surely that is still within the field of the mind.

Now, is it not that the mind, the thinker, has separated himself from his thoughts in order to give himself permanency? Because he can always modify his thoughts, he can always change his thoughts, put a new frame around them, while he remains apart and therefore gives himself permanency. But without the thoughts, the thinker is not. He may separate himself from his thoughts, but if he ceases to think, he no longer exists, does he? So, this separation of the thinker from his thoughts is a trick of the thinker to give himself security, permanency. That is, the mind perceives that thoughts are transient, and therefore it adopts the cunning trick of saying that it is the thinker apart from its thoughts, it is the Atman, the watcher, apart from action, from thought. But, if you observe the process very closely, putting aside all your acquired knowledge of what others have said, however great, then you will see that the observer is the observed, that the thinker is the thought. There is no thinker apart from thought; however widely, deeply and extensively he may separate himself or build a wall between himself and his thoughts, the thinker is still within the field of his thinking. Therefore, the thinker is the thought; so when you ask, `How can thought be controlled?', you are putting a wrong question.

When the thinker begins to control his thoughts, he does so merely to give himself continuity, or because he finds his thoughts are painful to him. Therefore, he wants to modify his thoughts, while he remains permanent behind the screen of words and thoughts. When once you admit that, which is true, then your disciplines, your pursuit of the higher, your meditations, your controls, all collapse. That is, if you are willing to look at the obvious fact that the thinker is the thought, and when you become fully aware of that fact, then you no longer think in terms of dominating, modifying, controlling, or canalizing your thoughts. Then the thought becomes important, and not the thinker. The emphasis then is not on the controller and how to control, but the thought which is controlled becomes important in itself. Understanding the thought process is the beginning of meditation, which is self-knowledge. Without self-knowledge, there is no meditation; and meditation of the heart is understanding. To understand, you cannot be tethered to any belief.

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Wed, 08 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

krishnamurti: It appears that man has always escaped from what he is, from where he is going, from What all this is about ? – of the universe, of our daily life, of the dying and the beginning. It is strange that we have never realized that however much we may escape from ourselves, however much we may wander away consciously, deliberately or unconsciously, subtly, the conflicts , pleasure, the pain, fear and so on are always there. And they ultimately dominate .

You may try to push them away deliberately with an act of will but they surface again. And pleasure is one of the factors that predominate; it too has the same conflicts, the same pain, the same boredom. The weariness of pleasure and the fret is part of this turmoil of our life. You can't escape it, my friend. You can't escape from this deep unfathomed turmoil unless there is a careful attention, a diligent watching of the whole 'movement of thought' and the 'self'. You may say all this is perhaps unnecessary. But if you do not pay attention to this the future of mankind is not only going to be more destructive, more intolerable but without much significance. All this is not a depressing point of view, it is actually so. What you 'are' now is what you 'will be' in the coming days. You can't avoid it. It is as definite as the sun rising and setting. This is the share of all man, of all humanity unless each one of us change to something that is not projected by thought.

Dan McDermott wrote: If what we are in essence is this 'awareness', passive awareness, choiceless awareness etc., how did we get so far from that, so lost in our 'individuality'? So full of ourselves that there is so little 'space' from which to see ourselves? It must start as children when we were compared and measured against each other (changing now in some parts of the world into how 'special' each child is.) I think that the 'space' to see (watch) ourselves comes through 'meditation'.

I think that without an unbearable trigger, the analyser has not one reason to even mediate,whatever you mean yourself by that word..

We have tons of triggers to be honest...but this implies to stop running away from what we are....what life is whether we like it or not..

yes indeed as a child , we tend to reproduce the same pattern we were put into, and could well have refused but did not,apart from exceptions..here I globally mean the false competition organised by the leading thieves..with the plain support of the flock, both playing the same game ,as k mentioned on the above quote, to escape from ourselves.

Escaping being the root of fear, fear is one of those words which says nothing for me..a non word...that was clever to make people talk or think about fear when there is no real meaning behind..

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

again, it implies, clearly, something else than thought..

Indeed, Dan, it requires the clarity and objectivity of direct perception. In this case, thought can just confirm the accuracy of what has been 'seen'- like 'yes, it does make sense' but then, it just stops there. So this quality of such insightful perception has to be integrated in our everyday life- and all thought can do here is...to abstain from any mental action except when it is really necessary

thought as it seems to me cannot unless there is an event of some sort for that..

Such insightful perception rather seems to integrate itself , if and when something proper is done for such happening to take place by itself...would not you say so ??

So the analyser has some work to do, no one will tell him what it is and how to do it..yet it is more than worthy to talk about , so k decided to do so.

As Soon as I am "conscious", the analyser is concerned..

the analyser is feeling a void whatever it does and reach, this is painful

well that a point to star with...then pain overwhelmed anyone if let alone..

this has the property to freeze the usual thinking ,still there but something in me is there now that makes me not listen to my own thoughts...

this something I can't say what it is...

etc..

a new journey has already started..the analyser keeps going on, bit by bit it is forced to question itself...in the case I am mentioning, it is not searching..

cheers..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 16 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: Every year she's asking the same questions! Doesn't she realise that she's knocking at an open door ?

John Raica wrote: paul daniel wrote:

i have a question to the Origin: are you going to interfere somehow ??

Hello John, somehow it is actually indirectly interfering I sense.....and the right question should have been : "are you going to interfere MORE "

each time we go analytical ,when it is not the right tool to be used in the concerned field, we get a signal that it is wrong........and it contains a repellent feeling in it..

having no clue about that, then after some time, it is reaching a state where the light signal becomes pain..then unbearable pain,whether conscious or more obviously a lot of it is totally embedded within the unconscious zone created by the superficial analyser ..

Still having no clue, this signal is meant to increase by inertia....

It can lead to destruction of one, killing himself as a last resource to run away from pain which is not lived, and global destruction as well due to "me running away" multiplied by X billion...in both destructive cases, it is the very same wrongness which is provoking that..

There is no running away happening at all of course, just the will of it...it does not exist.

Well it would have been interesting to know about the question..

cheers

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 16 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: To the Buddhist, the image, (suggested by) the word Buddha creates great reverence, great feeling, devotion; he seeks refuge in the image which thought has created. And as the thought is limited, that very 'image' brings about (a subtle inner cleavage?) conflict

while the feeling of reverence to a person, or to a certain long-established tradition divorced from all the external images, symbols and so on, is not (necessarily?) a factor of conditioning the brain. There, sitting in the next chair, was a 'modified' Christian. And when across the table one mentioned 'Christ' one could immediately feel the restrictive, reverential reserve. That word has (culturally) 'conditioned' his brain.

The suffering of mankind is common, is shared by all human beings.

Dan...about conflictual inner conflict...what is conflictual in such situation ? K says that thought is limited, but why is limitation bringing conflict so fight so pain ?

choice again is at the root of this..

each choice is loaded with a potential absolute happiness to be found in it, the expected result is never there......etc etc

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Wed, 22 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: Q : The whole structure of society is based on this premise : competition, success : that will 'activate' us, otherwise you will 'go under' or go to sleep

Hello John, was away for some days ,

As often I started by the end of this quite interesting talk about the now famous insights..

Well as I see this now, before I had some direct involuntary visions about how the analytical process works , about its program, to be honest apart from some usual blah blah, I would have nothing "real" to say here, competition,success, go under, go to sleep etc etc

From what I have seen, there is no competition as such at all...what there is is division, and this division starts within one's brain, when the analyser/analysed is working fully, and when there is nothing else to it...

The analyser does not simply stand everything so everyone which is not itself ,unless it can use it...because it is only looking at itself, its memory its innate capacities and nothing else..

yet this sentence is not right , as the fact is that the analyser is only able to watch itself , whatever the all itself is...including memories,etc etc

When it is in presence of some other "it-selves" , having no relation apart from profit , it tries to use or suppress, eradicate, eliminate all other selves....

this is what is meant to bring harmony, peace, ,wise persons on earth...good very sad joke !!

this is what we wrongly call competition, there never had been at a deep level any competition between human beings..never!! we just do not relate at all, unless there is a gain in sight,so it is not a relation but a use of someone and this too is just a part of the analytical program, which is needed in order to find a good enough technique, tool, etc in practical fields only, there is no matter of relationship in the analysing program....

So the questioner here talks about himself only, because he is totally caught in what he perceives as a rat race and a vital need to push himself, without knowing that this is just a normal effect of functioning only with the analytical program.....having not a clue about his own functioning as a me...well...

then k for me brings the right question:

K : Of course ! That's all we know. So we are asking is there an energy which is not brought about through friction ? Suppose I say 'Yes' . For you, it may be just a theory. But if you are interested, if you say ; By Jove, I will give (dedicate?) my life to find that out' You will have it there (laughs)

So on the way or we have a normal life from birth to death...or we have met sorrow, pain, we lived all that, then what happens is the revealing of the roots of some of then ,so the relief and so on, then bit by bit as it wishes there is this analytical process which is revealing itself.......etc etc

.................

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 23 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: K : There's (an inner) discipline which is order.Look : my urge is to tell you something ; He( K) does it every other day, he feels intensely ; but will you listen ? That's all he says : For God's sake, please listen ! And you say : sorry, I have got my wife, my job, my family. I listen because it sounds very nice theoretically...

Q : Yes, but is he intrinsically capable of listening in the state in which he presently is ?

K : Of course, sir, when you are in a crisis, you listen. When someone near to you dies , you listen damn well ; you are shocked by it. You are in a state of concentrated energy.

Q : Yes, because that suffering is affecting me within the field.

K : No ! It is challenging you to question the field ! It is challenging you to say For God's sake, what is this ? Why am I going through this ? Why is everybody going through this ? But you (usually) say : I need comfort, it must be somewhere- and you're off ! We've got plenty of (such ) challenges, all the time. I am challenging you right now, but you wouldn't even listen...

Q : If it was voluntary, I would listen !

K : Then, don't listen ! Carry on, knowing that you are living in a field where nothing good is going to flower !

Q : When you see that, I think the 'carrying on' will become even more difficult....

K That's all ; But he won't listen to that, he is already arguing that there is something good in the field : Gandhi has done some good, and Mrs Gandhi has done some good and Hitler has not done good...He didn't listen to what is being said. ...........................

Well that is what I would call a serious reprimand...is not it ?

and he is talking to some fine scientist....for me it is OK as I never had any admiration for anyone so it is fine..but to them such talk must have been a shock afterwards back to usual life...where they are perceived by themselves and others as a part of some sort of elite of this planet....

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 23 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Dan McDermott wrote: Yes...'colossal laziness' and 'need for comfort' and 'reward and punishment' has been ringing in my head!

Hello the other Dan...

well yes it does, but is it so simple ? I don't think so....

I think that one main factor is quasi ignorance of what oneself is, of what sorrow is, of what is going on, on what desire are etc etc etc so basically what is life all about? and of what am I suppose to do or not to do with all that..as it is written nowhere...

if what we have done with life generally speaking ,I mean what mankind has made of it, for me a disaster at all levels..apart from machines but really and so what ?? if I find this totally appalling , insane, demented,cruel etc etc then maybe will I find with much luck something else than this nonsense...

laziness ,comfort , etc comes after when I am totally stuck in such no life so in pain , in sorrow etc etc trying to make something at least comfortable out of it..

cheers..

PS: in my worse ever time at least I was considering life as holidays...constructive holidays with nature...walking, meeting people,sharing,voluntary cooperation so of sharing of course as they go together.. etc etc ..and certainly not competition which means elimination ,achieving, reaching , eliminating others so war..all this is WAR...that is utterly insane..the entire occidental world is drowning into that ,what a mess !!(started some 2500 years ago at least for me) ..as for the rest possible they do go that way..yet..something seems to happen..

And I do not give any right to anyone to touch this....somehow it has worked quite well but must add that I am very stubborn when it comes to that, I would stand for that minimum in my life, ready to face consequences for such conduct,which i did..and for the deeper moments, well this is something else , so another story...much told by k and possibly others too..

cheers.

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 23 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

All what we talk about here, under the guide line made by k ,has a direct incidence too on the outer, of course it has, ....when such a journey within has started, one of the first thing to be insightfully perceived is that there is no competition at all but an insane process of elimination directed by the ones willing to eliminate in order to win, all this having deep roots in the thought process functioning, so program itself!! from the whole Universe down to one me, this is just a slow suicide, something which had been said by k too somewhere....the deep nature of what we are is clearly not the one of our so called ancestors, this is something that k did not see, as he goes along with the darwinian bullshit....

if our past was totally clean in peace and bliss we would surely be in the very same mess, as what matters is what is missing in us..giving full power to a blind to the global tool that thought is..

what i have seen for me is that it is the absence of some capacities which are there but turned off which is creating our insane conduct and life , it has strictly nothing to see with the past whatever this past is..

of this I am not sorry to sat that it is in the obvious ....

I still do not see any other way than to go through sorrow without any expectation when it is there..because sorrow has the capacity as a catalyst to reveal the unconscious when it is lived , it is part of its job to help here, a capacity which the full and total bliss when totally connected does not reveal....

so there seem to be at least two major steps,one is the proper dealing with what is wrong in the analytical life so in thought in sorrow....and the second is what is happening when thought somehow is not in the way....but here it is already fee of sorrow,fear and all of it...

when I rethink about this, which is something I lived ,it is not guessing or intellectual I say for god sake what a mess have we created,!!!worse is impossible ...

If so, we are touching the bottom of it....mentally we clearly are...

I am 60, since 10 years old ish, this is my feeling...then I felt that some of today’s quote would fit in here

the building is crumbling, the walls are giving way, there is a fire destroying it. You must leave the building and start anew in a different place, with different values, with different foundations. But those who are making a profit out of education, whether the State or the individual, will go on, because they do not see the destruction, the deterioration, the degradation. But those who really see the whole catastrophe, not just in a few spots, but the world over, have to strip themselves of everything and start anew. I don't mean stripping off the outward knowledge, the technical knowledge. I know it can never be stripped off; but you can strip yourselves inwardly, see yourselves as you are, your ugliness, your brutality, your ruthlessness, your deceptions, your dishonesty, your utter lack of love. Seeing all that, you can start anew, and become honest, clear, simple, direct. Surely, only then is there a possibility of a new world and a new order. Peace does not come through patch-work reform. Peace does not come through mere adjustment of things as they are. Peace comes only when we understand what is, beyond the superficial. Peace can come into being only when the wave of destruction, which is the wave of our own action, is stopped. Sirs, how can we have love? Not through the pursuit of the ideal of love, but only when there is no hatred, when there is no greed, when there is consideration, when there is generosity; but a man who is occupied with exploitation, with greed, with envy, can never know love. When there is love, systems become of very little importance. When there is love, there is care, there is consideration, not only for the children, but for every human being

it is so simple.......

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Fri, 24 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: I spent 4 days at typing it, but it was a totally worthwhile endeavour. I'll keep posting other excerpts but this was definitely the essence of it

Yes please go on John and thanks of course..

This morning I was wondering what life would be if only the analyser was not dictating everything...would we still have complex machines, planes, nano technology , factories, selling stuff to make people sick and same company selling possible cure , pollution by chemicals,radioactivity, noise, etc etc

not sure we would have that,when it appears now impossible to have life without all that technique...especially for those living in town and doing no work related by this "togetherness" used too in fields for production of vital needs... so practically 90% of the planet..

as when the analyser does not lead all those may or may not exist to the extend we know it, or to the totalitarianism we know it...as this is not the point, the point being the frame of the brain mind..the state of mind so..then anything else finds its right place......

and for sure when the analyser is not dictating there is no competition hiding in fact the analytical eliminating process basic program(choice) for concepts so not to be used on people and in mental fields of course, no division with oneself so with the entire universe, no business, no war, no poverty nor wealth , no hierarchy, no comparison, no value given, and a relative security brought by the togetherness...and a sort of global sense of art, art for me being a relative notion ONLY of "nicely done", "beauty", a sort of natural global "good job" at all levels....but not any more a quest for an impossible absolute as it is now for the poor analyser,still seeking for an impossible way out of its misery ,an impossible task as it never will get that it is the core problem with the absence of some other capacities by itself....as we do try to only reject sorrow like we reject anything else blindly and automatically, an awakening seems to me not possible in those conditions..

tu sum this up: I feel awful ?? great!!! that is THE good start,something is at work to push me/anyone on the right track..will I listen ??

of course not is what usually happen...

the difficult part of that seems to be that I am going to be entirely lost for a while and around that there is a lot of unknown,an unknown that again the analyser is not able to deal with as it analyses only the recorded past....no psychological landmarks or so few are sometimes left, death is a constant probability as soon as there is planning and continuity involved , i see all about the rat race, i get all what is happening on the planet, all the crimes due to my own conduct too etc etc .

One word on what is recorded, it is only a tiny superficial fraction of "what is" which is recorded, the superficial part of it, plus what is rejected, so that at the end of the day it is so logical to become specialised in one single part of this immensity of possible subjects... this is why limitation is a problem....I guess that there is no life as one only , as acting as we were not totally interdependent is THE mistake of course....we are told that so we believe it blindly by not even properly using the analytical program which is not that bad when used to its limits by just properly using this yes/no and I do not know..conclusions...

so much for the self glory of "me" ....

the turning on of our other capacities seems the problem.....so far what I get is that "I" necessarily have the last word in its field to agree for some X reasons to let its dictatorship so arrogance wither away in one go....

well......??

blah blah is easy ,then what?

Well what can be radically changed right now is clearly the relation I am having with others..if this is radically changed then bit by bit all materialistic aspects will find their right place of course....

Of course there is the temptation to add here: so must radically be changed this sort of bizarre relation I pretend to have with whatever is myself which i see as a global running away combined with some reaching...of which I have no clue about.

So me X by 7 billion is by all means using others to do so....

me is just a tool....science the new god of some too, they don't have any answers for our mental problems .........................................

k: Most of us do not want to be intensely aware, it is too disturbing

Questioner: How is it possible to be intensely aware while one is occupied with a particular job?

Krishnamurti: I do not see the difficulty. Why can't one be intensely aware while doing the job? Whether the job is mechanical, scientific, or bureaucratic, in being intensely aware while you are doing that job, you will not only do it more efficiently but you will also begin to be aware of why you are doing it, what are the motives behind your work. You will find out if you are afraid of your boss; you will observe how you talk to your underlings and to those above you. Being intensely aware in your relationship with others, you will know whether you are creating enmity, jealousy, hatred; you will see all your own responses in relationship, whether you are here, in a bus, in your office, or in the factory. All this is implied in intense awareness. Also, if you are intensely aware, you might give up your job. Therefore, most of us don't want to be intensely aware;it is too disturbing; we would rather continue with what we are doing, even if it is very boring. At best, we break away from that which bores us and find a job which is less boring, but this too soon becomes routine.

So, we are caught in habit: the habit of going to the office every morning, the habit of smoking, the sexual habit, the habit of ideas, concepts, the habit of being an Englishman, and so on. We function in habit. To be intensely aware of habit has its own danger, and we are afraid of danger. We are afraid of not knowing, of not being certain There is great beauty, there is great vitality, in not being certain. It is not insanity to be completely insecure; it doesn't mean that one becomes psychotic. But none of us want that. We would rather break one habit and create a more pleasant habit.

Collected Works, Vol. XIII,212,Choiceless Awareness

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Sat, 25 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: The understanding of the nature of what you are, without any reactions to what you discover you are, is the beginning of austerity. The awareness, of every thought, every feeling, like watching a bird in flight - that watching brings about an extraordinary sense of austerity that goes beyond all the fooling around with this ideas of self- improvement and self-fulfilment. In this watching there is great freedom and in that freedom there dignity of austerity. But ( unfortunately?) if you said all this to a 'modern' group of students or children, they would probably look out of the window in boredom because the world is bent on its own pursuit of pleasure.

Hello John, i was back to this....

Talking for myself, this "watching", that k is talking about is not the one I-we usually know in normal life, the one lead by all of us, he is talking about something very different....of a part of the missing process, at least this is my view on that.

I see my own students at home caught in such process of entertainment,which is totally unavoidable yet I am banning since 15 years TV,radio false main news and so on for myself so for them, so no advertising at all and an intense and concerned presence in times of trouble, as this is where "something" deeply different and interesting may happen; pursuit of pleasure yes like the old man in fact, but was it so different some 2500 years ago deeply at the level of the bottom brain mind? I don't think so, what we live today is only the continuity of the same day again and again..with superficial variations ..not long ago I catch a text by Socrates talking about the children of his time, it could have been written yesterday..

what we live are just the convolutions of the analytical mind since ages, caught in its own making, its own trap, lost , in suffering, pretending that all is fine because it even fears to acknowledge that its life is a perfect nonsense so is terrified to admit that, as it sees that if it does such thing, it is going to be destroyed...which is what must be done, but does not want to do!! but for me all human have not been like that since our beginning..many civilisations show that man had been totally different mentally, like what is left of the native Indian for example but not only of course and far from it..

You know to be a leader you need to want it, who is willing to do that and on what bases? From ages only the thieves and violent people mainly to gain on the collective work would go for it, today some call them pervert narcissistic or just psychopath ,and we keep stubbornly working for such people but why ? we are not so different, this is why !!! so they lead us, and we do not act against as we have nothing really different to say..after all don't we all, apart from exceptions ,want the same as they do...?? that is a terrible assessment..as it brings leaders and followers as being deeply and basically the same type of person, all fighting which necessarily bring the worse in charge and not the good man of course...the children of the divisive analytical mind.....our failure and disaster.

Here incidentally I am so questioning authority,all authority,any aspect of it, apart the firm but gentle and caring one needed when it comes to children.......as I see it, we are not adults mentally in fact..so we see in ourselves what result gives a perverted child mind..

and so on, all this have roots in one single brain mind which has lost possible 80% of its capacities...X by 7 billion,less one or two every 2500 years..wow !!

--Back to the future is now and changing yourself changing the world...all is definitively linked...the democratic coalition for peace and freedom bombs will again kill today somewhere there is something to be stolen, now using false "east-slamic" mercenaries to hide itself of course, because itself it is more ashamed of its insane conduct and do not want the flock (us)to realise how mad they are!!!, for my comfort today, those bombing are "me" too....and I know it deeply, this is why I am terribly concerned too..for others, for those dying because of me today, whether in bombing, by organised starvation, out of hopelessness, tortures,.........I am the killer too....:-(

sounds as if it was lost is not it ???

Well , that is" what is" , this hopeless situation is the present what is...what is factual with "what is" when you have learnt to live it with no expectation of any kind ,this is learnt when dealing properly with sorrow, is that the problems are going to be solved....if they are lived....that is a great catch 22 again because to be able to live "what is" instead of out usual running away, for myself I have learnt that I must not intend to solve anything as a divided analytical "I" ...as soon as I have such intention, it is again the divisive analyser which is at work and again will mess it up all as usual..that is the trick , I must not try to solve anything...but learn to live the situation only...this is where for me is the vital trick..from which all will follow then as it wishes...

it seems to me that "me" needs" to be totally stuck...if so we are reaching a vital moment....

will we live it, or escape from it ??

As a "we" being global I have no clue, as a personal "I" well it is entirely up to me....

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Mon, 27 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: But K was uncompromising that no other person can heal your mind- you must heal it yourself. But where it was a case of possession , some evil spirit dominating some person, he was able to rid him of that. He could just get the spirit out and say : Get out and don't touch this person again. I have never seen him so sad as when he said to me ' Look, this chap is ill and I've healed him. He was living stupidly and I gave him a chance , but will he take the chance or he will go back and live as stupidly as before ? To him the pity of it was heartbreaking.

Dan: amazingly by reading that, somehow it seems to me that the analyser, thought, the thinking process,"me" etc etc is no more at all even working properly in its field of competencies...because he drop the basic yes I know as an experimented fact, no I don't now as an experimented fact, and the last one which is I don't now anything about this or that..then it has brought at the same level facts, lies, hopes and desires, as well as illusions and so on, then it has abandoned facts to conceptually live in lies, hopes, illusions and desires, facts seem to have disappear...( grosso modo bien sur) it is more complex but for now this is enough to see

John Raica wrote: I think K was a man who wanted nothing from anybody. He did not want anyone to form a 'sangha' (community?)( ensemble des pratiquants du bouddhisme) and to further the teachings. He said : don't do anything for another unless it is an authentic expression of your own uniqueness.

Dan: this gives me the feeling of walking alone , so being egotistic, which never meant to me using others ,to steal, to work for me only without caring for others etc etc I think that we are not at all egotistic but just conceptually running away from what the censor have chosen to reject and think we are reaching what the censor have chosen to reach,which is something which is in psychological fields absolutely non existent in fact..It seems that we may be living such illusion we take for real, but that there is nothing in it, it is empty...me is empty whatever clever name is given to this emptiness....in other words from other times: the sacred link had been broken,....we are empty shells..and since a while nuts shells as in nut bar.

then living psychologically alone, there is no master and no slave accepted, then I meet others at this level....in peace with me so with them.

John Raica wrote: Q : Why is it that no-one has been able to make this 'radical) transformation in consciousness he was talking about ?

AP : Annie Besant said that this (transformational) process should not be understood in the framework of one life's span. This is an ongoing destiny of many which is unravelling itself and you have a rôle to play. I think K has indicated : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation, but at every moment unbeknown to you if you can rise to the full stature of your manhood and negate the factor of the 'self' then in the total communion with 'what is' there is a release . But don't try to hold it for that is out of time.

Dan: Again we have here the idea of time as in evolution, learning etc etc...just as religious as any other usual view from AB..things is the all society is so perverted and so insane at all levels, yet "we" find that normal because we are told so blindly believe, if this was so a fact, then for me it is clear that the Origin itself whatever it is is insane too...this was and is a deep seeing I have, so is not thinking. K did indicated what AP mentions about : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation....effectively I have lived this episode to try even for less than a split second to hold it, or rather precisely to wish that it goes on so to try to give it continuity !! now the present fact is that "it" never came back to the immense extend it was there...no reason to cry, but the necessity to get the point that there is work to do with oneself...my life is a piece of a disaster...what is wrong ,what is that? going into that somehow must be done...the walk is not easy because not only will I meet my own psychological illusions which I call life which is possible indeed, but I become at the same time too ,terribly aware of the outer as it is, more and more of it up to the point to get it practically entirely as it exactly is so I see all the interaction of it, like how school get one ready for war etc etc etc and this is the most destroying factor known in my own life, as I really can deal with the most profound psychological pain of mind, but when is seen the global picture of the insane disaster of man, wow...when you understand deeply it in your guts...and here there is no more matter of included/excluded has now this sounds utterly meaningless regardless to the crimes of man, this is hard to live it...as it can use all your energy left to just live it and cry out all your tears for a lifetime in one splits second..this is why I absolutely do not care at all about so called science,machines and all of that, because this is totally beside the vital point and would be a bit like bowing before any machine as being the only "meaning" of the entire unknown to us, universe..there is not an once of sanity in this...and some are proud of that..not knowing why they are proud of course, as such person has no clue about the functioning of the analytical program..

this brings us straight back to k : Self- knowledge...( Dan: insightfully revealed fact about the functioning of the analytical program..) does not demand accumulated knowledge. Accumulated knowledge becomes a burden to self- knowledge. Self- knowledge, the understanding of the total process of oneself, does not demand any previous knowledge. Previous knowledge about oneself brings misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Self- knowledge is constant movement without accumulation. This knowledge is from moment to moment, for self knowledge is a process of discovery of the activities of the self. Only when there is the process of accumulating knowledge, then it is in opposition to creative being........ Without self- knowledge, the god that you seek is the god of illusion; and illusion inevitably brings conflict and sorrow. Without self- knowledge, there can be no right thinking; and then all knowledge is ignorance which can only lead to confusion and destruction. Self- knowledge is not an ultimate end; it is the only opening wedge to the inexhaustible. ``Is not self- knowledge extremely difficult to acquire, and will it not take a very long time?''

John Raica wrote: Now K says that this faculty of attention is not of the brain. Though it operates through the brain it is not of the brain. And this 'faculty' can see the biological reflexes , it can see what comes through the brain. So this 'attention' is really a flash of the Cosmic energy, like a high voltage (frequency?) is tied. We cannot (usually) touch this 'high voltage' (frequency?) because we are on this 'low voltage' (mode)..

Dan: quite clear in itself yes.

John Raica wrote: AP : First you must see this whole phenomenon in its totality and 'do nothing' about it.. Now, with this (non-moving mind?) you turn away from all this without any 'achievement' orientation. You are observing the sky, the see without wanting anything, and sometimes in this communion with nature this whole process stops. But before it stops you have to come to the perception of a 'camera lens' which is an absolutely accurate recording without the desire to change 'what is' . The brain is only (passively) recording. In this state of only recording there is a miracle- the miracle of attention It is this 'attention' which- if you are able to put a foot on to it is already free.

Dan: yes no achievement or even orientation...I know it factually..something else that is not "me", "you" is clearly there , leading the "game" of life...as described here, so attention has definitively, in what "I for once not leading" factually lived, attention so has nothing at all in common with thinking so with analysing...NOTHING..something else is at work....

John Raica wrote: AP I feel that you must observe without prejudice how a prejudice and a word born out of it can put a distance between people .One must see that this walk between you and me are created by my words. And I think this wall can be washed only by the tears of the heart. Unless you are washed in the tears of your heart- which brings you close to a sense of affection with those you are intimately working with , I don't think you can get anywhere.

again this "must observe without prejudices" seems to bring us right back to analysing only, so right to the creator of problems again in charge...must or must not are only analytical choices based on analytical unknown desires/fear...but is it a matter to get anywhere ? or is it a matter for the illusion of an analytical conceptual life, the concept does not know that it is a concept, ,a matter so for the illusion to be perceived out of the blue without searching for, so lived insightfully by "chance", incidentally as a side effect of something? if so what is that "something else" ???

Of course for me it is obvious that what we call pain, suffering,discontentment,boredom,fear,anxiety, and anything felt as bad for me is the only starting point,yet what am I supposed to do with that ??

then with a bit of "chance" again, even the things felt as "good for me" start to be questioned by themselves because it is seen that those too are roots for pain and more...some discovery process now seems to work by itself as it wishes....is it possible to help ? some say yes..

I am not there yet for myself, so I can't say anything here..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Tue, 28 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: PK : Another mysterious happening is the 'process' which he went through at various periods of his life. Do you think this is the same (phenomenon) as the awakening of kundalini ?

V : No, the awakening of kundalini does activate unconditioned (psychic?) energies in the body but not for a prolonged duration. It must have happened to him for 6 months of his early life in Ojai when they spread mattresses in the room- he would roll when not able to bear the intensity or the agony caused by the pain. Now for K as a person it seems to me that he was 'manipulated' by the Supreme Intelligence with the help of invisible powers or energies left into orbit of the Earth by exceptional human beings of spiritual attainments....

About kundalini, it seems not as uncommon as it seems as myself not included I have met 3 other person directly who have lived such moment...I guess that many just do not mention in places where it can be seen by a majority like on the internet..as I myself did not for 35 years, apart from exceptions, no one in my close family or even close friends knew about that...

but here it is about k and my view is that k could (should) have told more as a describing of all those moments but his choice was not that one..I am not sure that it was "right", after all when such moment is a fact, and you say it, that is fine...then how people will perceive and create another sort of religious worshipping or whatever else is really secondary.....and 100% their own responsibility..

As to the invisible power or energy, what I and some I know lived says that it is one clear possibility,such possibility brings into the light that we would even be more remote than we possibly can imagine from what life was meant to be..as I often say here, k was not exceptional, but we are exceptionally dumb at all levels apart when it comes to machines....but here too we create nothing it all is already there, which is logical with an Origin beyond time....so we are not evolving at all ,we are just an expression, one out of the infinite of what is ,expression of the Origin...who decided to play personal only , so the disaster..there is no room for that in the whole of what is ,is what I think..

in that sense again k has the right words: you are the world..which is far more than a stupid romantic analytical statement

John Raica wrote: PK : In your view, what has been the impact of Krishnaji on human consciousness ?

V : Krishnamurti, with his own life has paved the way for one global, human religion, one global ethos, one global way of enquiring into truths and living those truths . Because all the 'organised' religions are (eventually?) going to collapse ; they have lost their relevance. If K had not lived and not taught, there would have been a vacuum in the orbit of human consciousness. He has paved the way for the 21-st century

PK : For the serious enquirer ?

V : That's right, such people come for the 'few'- for the salt of the earth.

Dan: have the so called religion even ever had relevance at all ?? As an hypnotic and mesmerising agent for domination and refuge for lost in fear of life minds , yes no doubt..but more ????

I personally have a problem with "such people come for the few "... This can be entirely right, if so again we find here a hierarchy so such statement is a justification of our own societies....as they are so of war, of poverty and wealth..if so it is even worse that what I see...it is not that I absolutely want things to be that way where there would be no hierarchy to please my own image of what I'd like things to be, .....

this can be wrong too, if so k was what he was,end of the story..

I have the impression to assist to the birth of a new religion like all others..someone says what he sees out of the ordinary and really far from ordinary fighting life...trying to communicate what happens for him as it all seems or is of the most profound interest for all..not to forget that somewhere he said that he did not know how the big thing did happen to him, we read that here, John, some month ago in the other thread....

In his public life as reported in most books he met many doctors,professors,wealthy people ,well known people etc calling them by their title and not their name.....here again we can see the acceptance of some sort of human hierarchy is not it ??

for me , i don't know why but it seems obvious that there is no hierarchy at all for all things to simply be, there is a collectivity of elements and we are one of them amongst billion of billion,yet it pleases some to believe that all exist for us to exist..this is there for me since very young,of course one can be good at this or at that, yes and so what ?? Does it have to be used for power ? which is what happens....I say no, "this is wrong"...and not "I think that this is wrong"..why? because behind all this, what i see clearly now is that the divisive analyser again hiding itself as usual not having a clue that it is what it is doing.....and the analyser is basically in his heavier expressions war,destruction, stealing and killing....

this analyser likes to invade fields of so called spirituality too, where it can gain some sort of achievement as well..like the achievement to be the one who knows..... I have play that game, this is why i mention, it was my biggest disaster in life as it was entirely happening in the unconscious, until it was solved by living the pain of it with no expectation..

So does it all come down to such simple thing like am I expecting? or am I not ?

John Raica wrote: PK : K like Buddha seems to have seen the whole nature of freedom and freed himself of it. Why doesn't this happen to us ?

V : Because for them perhaps the 'personal' suffering caused by the irreversible separation by death had not too much importance. So when the suffering invaded K- he must have shed tears for Nitya. But this transported his consciousness into the fact of vulnerability of human life. Thinking gives continuity to the emotional sting of suffering, but one who has seen the limited utility of thought and does not allow that thought structure to intrude, then the 'sting' of suffering subsides by itself. K used to say 'Ending the psychological suffering is the essence of religiosity ' So it ended to him ; that one death was representative of millions of deaths happening And that one betrayal of those who had given him assurances in the name of the Masters was the betrayal of the whole humanity. He lived the life of the whole humanity perhaps in those three days- and the Buddha perhaps in three hours- and so that suffering ended. We get stuck in our own suffering : it's the personal consequence in our daily life of loneliness. So it seems to me that we don't end suffering because it gives us the sadistic pleasure- to feel it, to talk about it, the self-pity

PK : I have read that during these 15 days he spent travelling to India he suffered, but he learned from this suffering and freed himself. He wrote a letter to a friend saying : ' I have experienced personal sorrow. I'm through with it . I have cheated death.'

Dan: now John we are back to what you call the pet subject of mine..

and well , what to add to this ? You know to me this subject if lived and not escaped seems THE key where a different , let's say movement, starts in one's life without searching for it....when the world offers destruction or entertainment ,depending on where living....the world of entertainment destroying the world of....destruction...to steal, and to dominate....the same battle is going on within each one brain....

the pain is not deep enough yet, or it is but unfortunately "we" became" resilient to that at least for 2 or 3 millennia or more ,depending on how deeply false the official history is ...just another big mistake...

the " i have experienced personal sorrow....."

is interesting indeed....

John Raica wrote: PK But he also talked about the need for co-operation, that a true co-operation is out of love... He once remarked that he will never desert anybody but they will all desert him

Dan:Yes, this is one basics of life as it is that we are missing...of course we are tools only and a tool has no competence in such field....a tool just have a program which makes it do things according to its .....program!!!

....what is alive is more complex, subtle and so unknown...most people like 95% of human still blindly believe in myths like the myth of competition so of the best..which if true made the 80 millions killed in two world wars, the best option of the time as ell as all others murdered before and since..that is utterly moronic and in fact so beyond words..

John Raica wrote: PK : It was said that K as a person was very different from K as a teacher, that he may have been a 'medium' of some sort for another Consciousness to operate. What do you think ?

V : I am inclined to agree that there were 2 streams of consciousness, but they were operating simultaneously. He would 'slide' from one to another so timelessly, so spontaneously and people would remain stuck with one or the other. So, I'm inclined to say that his life continued with these 2 parallel streams. That his consciousness has been used by some 'power' has been said by him in so many ways : I'm a telephone, so take the message, don't worship the telephone .

Dan: well this is not surprising, what we call ego or whatever,is always there whether dominant whether tamed....its part is vital for survival, including the immediate of course...when the analyser is gone, life as a human is gone too....this is what stuck me when my father got a brain stroke and when some of his memories and capacities were gone, he was no able to survive without others doing all what he usually was meant to routinely do every day himself..

what I find myself is that the influence of the other process on the ego or whatever name is effective, but will not radically change it, it is set up for good it seems..it will make the ego work as it should ,which for me is no more even the case, the ego has gone totally cuckoo even in its own fields...for me it never was meant to work on its own...of course you can count here and there things which are functioning yes indeed....but this is of no value the real value is to have the big pictures not one or two details only ..

bottom line there is the world of the analyser we all know and are exclusively caught in it,without really knowing about what is deeply going on, just surviving at a very superficial level where sorrow is to be found and the world of what is not of that....

for me sorrow is THE link between both...and is just an indicator and a helper...that we never use as it has to be used...its main property is to freeze the "me" dictatorship ....as such it is just a function....if i see all that rightly, it is there by "Origin's will out of mysterious necessity" ...

thanks for the work John this is really interesting to read all that.

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Wed, 29 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

.as I often say here, k was not exceptional, but we are exceptionally dumb at all levels apart when it comes to machines.

Hi, Dan, glad that someone is reading this stuff. I guess that this interview with Vimala Thakar puts a lot of things about K and ourselves in the right place: for me personally it was the 'phenomenal' aspect of K intermingled with his often boyish and spontaneous attitudes, etc.

Well John, I am not pushing myself at all, again thanks to you.. yes the phenomenal aspects of k are so interesting; well I remember long ago reading about very old Celtic non written sort of oral tradition, most of it being quite unknown and of course not a subject at school!! for them natural phenomenon , like k sort of things etc of course included what is not predictable was part of life, sort of : "know that what is unexpected may happen".... generally it was expressed to come from Nature in a sort of very wide sense...that would link them to very old cultures like native Indian, aborigines,real shamanism and some others, many probably unknown to us today..from this past of man which "THEY" try to hide, as now it seems obvious that official history is to cheated to be trusted, even the official history of today is false...

To have chosen somehow the path where there is 1+1=2 up to Hiroshima, Fukushima and genetic, nano tech etc etc so cars ,machines and computers have made us cars, machines and computers like....such "no life" having this constant frustration is simply driving us cuckoo..for me maths and technique pose exactly the same problem as what we call ego does, it is one fragment of a whole "body" taking over full control, so partially.

in clear it has no clue of what damage it is doing to the whole body or even if it is wise and intelligent to use it , a whole body which is now fragmented..even if maths are a fact to some or maybe down to the root nature of things, which I do not know , I am not sure that it is at all wise to use it now everywhere and all the time...as it is shrinking us to have a life of a formula,and a formula again does not have any contact or concern with anything but itself..if it even has any contact at all even with itself...without the whole with us, in us..we are not only wasting our time as a non living creature but this no life is spend in sorrow and frustration

and here i quote today's one which fit here:

"to bring about a state of constant experiencing, which is really extraordinarily revolutionary, we must be aware of this process of action which is always seeking an end, a result, and therefore giving birth to the actor. We must be fully aware of that process; and when we are aware of that and see the truth, the significance, the pain of it, then in that passive awareness we will know the state of experiencing in which there is neither the experiencer nor the experience."

John Raica wrote: Another precious insight was his saying that 'It is not difficult to see the truth ( about a lot of stuff in our everyday life) but it is difficult to let go the 'untruth' part. It also confirmed my intuition that there are several possible readings of K's Teachings- but only one is the 'true' one. Anyway many thanks to Professor Krishna for his remarkable book he offered to us all 'A Jewel on a Silver platter' . Whether he- or us- took the 'jewel' is a totally different story. I'm posting excerpts from his interview with Radha Burnier, who was the TS president towards the end of K's life

John, do you mean " the true one reading of k" as what it was precisely meant by k ?

About the TS in the other last quote, I was reading a bit of the TS story yesterday and remembered I was reading some of it long ago ,especially about madame Blavatsky ..founded in the us ,where else ?? But it left me nothing after such reading.

Hermetic Qabalah (from the Hebrew ???????? "reception" or "accounting") is a Western esoteric, occult and mystical tradition. It is the underlying philosophy and framework for magical societies such as the Golden Dawn, Thelemic orders, mystical-religious societies such as the Builders of the Adytum and the Fellowship of the Rosy Cross, and is a precursor to the Neopagan, Wiccan and New Age movements.[1] The Hermetic Qabalah is the basis for Qliphothic Qabala as studied by left hand path orders, such as the Typhonian Order.

It is amazing to see all that having an apparent link with k through the TS and Leadbeater ......as the TS was sort of part of this Cabala, more devoted to the "devil" as opposite to so called religion and "evil" things than anything else,full of mysteries of course never revealed as probably they never existed at all but were just fantasy .. so they say with words...in the same "vein", this leads us straight to the neocons and illuminati "moto" : order ab chao....not to forget that illuminati has two meaning ,at least in French , one is demented..

If JC story is even partially right, then "some" have missed a "messiah" for a second time :-)).....but k was "the reluctant messiah"...not to forget that messiah means messenger and nothing more but has become the myth of our saviour ..in that sense k is a messiah..in the accepted sense,there is no such messiah at all....

it is interesting to know that historically many Bolshevik,communist,Maoism and Trotskyste have officially become neocons....and today in Europe still are cohabiting well with the main power like the last no elected president of the European commission leading 800 million people Jose Manuel Barroso started his young career as one of those so called extreme left as a Trotskyste .....pretending to be in opposition with them when they are just the same group....history when not false is really interesting and illuminates the darkness of our modern times, superficially explaining all the horror and "evil" links of the past 120 years...and more......

Modern time is really a funny ha ha expression as anyone who lived on earth ,always was living in modern time, 100 000 years ago and more included of course

our history is just the one of the thieves leading the blinds..by all means.

All this based on pure wind,as so far the so called west seem to have had no special mind like eastern have had since long ago...

Leadbeater "discovery" of k remaining a really "weird" phenomenon ....well my ex wife would see the aura naturally so would have this natural talent,but she was not able to "interpret" the colours she would see ( the dominant colour she would noticed was a sort of "grey" ish) ..again here and there there are elements of a huge puzzle , if it is known as a puzzle , it is fine,as the element knowing it would not go insane, but each piece that each human is, sees itself for the global puzzle...then insanity is our best friend...

so now let us go for the next excerpt...

At this stage I am now really eager to discover it........

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Wed, 29 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: RB : Both. There was a conversation in 1976 when K wanted the trustees to meet in Ojai an,d we were invited to dinner in Mary Z's house in Malibu. At the dinner table K himself asked ' What is a Master ?' I said ; from the theosophical point of view a Master is someone who have come to a state of inner freedom, but out of compassion remains in contact with ignorant humanity- to help and to teach them, like Bodhisattva And I added, Sir, I believe you are a Master. That put an end to our conversation. There was a period of silence and then he turned to something else ; But I think he was in contact wit other (invisible?) people, perhaps they were his teachers, perhaps there is a veil after veil that lifts. So it is possible that K himself had been guided by certain 'people', because if you read Pupulji's description of the 'process' she noted down that he spoke about 'they' ; Who are 'they' ?

PK : Yes, that is a mystery.

RB : Mark Lee said that just before K died , when he met him, K said' I'm ready to go. They are waiting for me, but the body has its own programme. So, who were the 'they' who were waiting for him ? I think he was in contact with 'people' (spiritual entities?) who were at that level of consciousness. Apart to what he said to Mahesji, on one occasion he said to me that the mistake the Theosophists did was to make the Masters' into something personal and concrete.They are not that. ..........................................

Well....talking about someone close to my actual friend , I hate the word wife, if myself I was contacted by "another brain" by telepathic means in an unknown language I would understand so I could use it too...in the exact same type of experience he was contacted and at some stage was listening to some music( he said that he never heard before and after such profound and beyond words sound in his entire life) in a telepathic manner too..apart from me talking and him listening to music ,all was identical, so here we have a process ??? ..honestly I am really stuck by his experience with music like k's ones really intrigue me in the same manner, he was in touch or in contact with....????....where, how , who etc..apparently this could have been coming from anywhere, as least it is not an earthly known phenomenon...so this gives much credit to this apparent lunacy for some....

A whole "world" seems to escape our lives....but it is life ? honestly I don't think so...

So k was much more mysteriously "touched" than what is usually known...I have no doubt about it for me, because I can compare to what I and some I know lived as a free small sample ,and here and there there are a few description which cannot have been said, unless he himself lived them....of course a good psycho blah blah would have him put into a psychiatric asylum nowadays, the age of profound darkness is our present time....for me it is not knew at all...it is just that what was carefully hidden is just now in the open in order to try to strike down mankind for good..a 2500 years old story,trying to fulfil a self dictated prophecy started some 2500 years ago.....ending soon ,one way or the other..

All writings and interviews seem to confirm that k was a contacted person...for most of his life....

and really I think that this was "only" what life was meant to be..............possibly not to that extend for all, but with at least the taste of it for everyone....what a disaster :-((

Nevertheless I keep my own job within the sorrow network....the more "I" want,the more distress and pain..as such it is simple yes but...........with or without k I would be on that wavelength ..

Fist outer major and radical step will be to abandon competition and the myth of the best..this means integral cooperation and sharing..is the planet ready for that ? not at all..some leading this mad game are closer to suicide than we think...and they well may go for the big "game" when killing themselves..out of ultimate suffering.....

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 30 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: Hi, Dan, I've just added a few paragraphs to the RB interview. Might be worth reading in the 'k-context'

Thanks John I am on it.

John Raica wrote: RB : Living it and speaking out of his own perception. Take this other thing : they say that listening, pondering or reflecting makes for constant learning ; What traditionally is called 'listening' is listening to the scriptures, but having heard Krishnaji we can understand the deeper meaning of it. Also K was speaking of the modern world and he was giving something which would help humanity to emerge out of the disaster of the modern way of life- and all that didn't apply in the old days. So I think the ancient teachings came in a new form with all the power of personal knowledge and clarity.

Yes indeed, at least for me too and some more people, this listening k talks about has nothing in common with what the analyser means by listening with the intellectual "ears" through the distortion of personal knowledge and craving-desires and some sort of concentration so of exclusion ...

According to her , k was repeating all these ancient scriptures not parroting but out of living it. It makes sense to me...

Beyond all that, there seem to be something constant is not it ? something quite simple that we entirely distorted and are distorting by analysing it with a tiny segment of all what is.. we have reduced all what is to a tiny little corner of never accomplished cravings..so out of sorrow mainly and the impossible escape from that...

over a period of time ,known to us, of 2600 years we would have had a handful of known "awakened" to themselves and their deep nature "persons",end of the story...

K has brought nothing in terms of "uncoveries" as such so in the absolute, but in terms of re discovery through his own living and experiences,yes indeed ....plus his own ways to tell others...like the observer is the observed and more....

Now the all world keeps the same track.........no roots problems are really globally perceived for me, even in the obvious where competition which is an illusion brought by the necessary divisive analyser has to be "killed" by the global intelligence.....

back to the missing processes or at least to what looks sort of like that when going back analytically to what happens......missing processes that are apparently not reachable so the apparent catch 22, for the analyser...when it is the only capacity at work..

John Raica wrote: PK : Were you shocked by reading Radha Sloss' biography ?

RB : It took me by surprise, specially since K said so many times about the normal, worldly living : ' you people you have gone through all this but this person has never gone through all that' So, I called Mary Lutyens and she confirmed that it was a fact. But the more I thought about, the more I've felt that K's words were true. Once I was walking with him on the Adyar beach and asked him' You have said that you never suffered- but Shiva Rao who was with you in the ship cabin when the news of your brother's death came said that Krishnaji cried and cried for three days. So, you went through that sorrow of parting, but after those three days you were completely at peace and radiant with happiness. So I understand that the consciousness who went through (the pain of) parting was not the consciousness that came out of that ; He only said : Yes, that's right'. So, when he said I've never gone through this', that explains it..

If k has found the ability to live sorrow each time it is there and not escape from it (which is not possible ) as we do, then this makes sense.

John Raica wrote: PK. People have asked me how do you reconcile being the TS president with being a KFI trustee ?

RB : I don't think there is anything for me to reconcile. For example the fundamental work of the TS is to establish a nucleus of brotherhood for humanity, irrespective of religion, chaste, etc. Now how can that 'brotherhood' come unless one is free of all prejudice and barriers ? If the mind is free like that, is it very different from the 'unconditioned ' mind that K spoke of ? So, I see no contradiction : the TS has officially said, years ago that there is no authority in the society, not even Madam Blavatsky. Every person, through his own reflexion, purity of life, enquiry, has to discover the truth for himself.

The analyser is not capable to do such creative brotherhood.....is my morning feeling, well more than usual..

no authority so no hierarchy is a good vital start . Each talent must be a collective and shared adventure , but here we are still missing THE most vital innate talent of genuine and natural togetherness as a side effect of "something else" which is obviously not the case of humanity.....

well ,all this leaves me very much dubious in the sense that all seems totally hopeless in the sense of peace on earth so in each one...so I leave all this in a corner..because the disappointed analyser may again be complicating what is going on and simple...lost of hope means that the analyser has some, in the unconscious again....the stress of it so created like sorrow must now be left alone with no expectation....and we'll eventually see what may or not come out of this...

thanks..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 30 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

paul daniel wrote: so I leave all this in a corner..because the disappointed analyser may again be complicating what is going on and simple...lost of hope means that the analyser has some, in the unconscious again....the stress of it so created like sorrow must now be left alone with no expectation....and we'll eventually see what may or not come out of this...

It seems to have spoken a bit and have revealed to the conscious a few hidden things, hidden cravings and desires..

to make it short as it appeared, willing to change society is wrong from step one as will is precisely what makes it insane...

this cannot so be a goal by any means...

Would that be so surprising if the k's formula changing yourself changing the world is the only good formula....as it appeared by itself this afternoon one more time..one brings the other to be changed but not at the root with any analytical view,conclusion,formulae ...

the self-me etc has no concern with psychological roots of any kind at all..when doing so, it creates sorrow and pain because something is not properly working...we have a helper here...

this does not mean that will cannot act on what is going on up to a point of course, but this will still be war and mass murders again at some stage and still a meaningless insane life after all anyway..and the problem we have is so huge, enormous, that it now requires more than superficial changes in the structure of society..left, right,religion,politics,science etc as k said, they have all failed..

when I myself keep willing to act on let's say hierarchy and competition, yet I must say what I have seen , mentioning that is one thing but creating an idea around leads nowhere now, as this is not a root and division is the fact not unity...

what are the roots, what creates division ? again to be left absolutely alone as a questioning in some corner of the brain mind....here thinking is definitively useless and dangerous at this level....

etc etc

I may try to make that clearer tomorrow, not sure .

cheers..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Thu, 30 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

According to her , k was repeating all these ancient scriptures not parroting but out of living it. It makes sense to me...

Hi, Dan, actually I think she meant that since those truths are 'eternal' or timeless, he perceived them anew, without the background of our collective cultural conditioning

Well John, this is more what I meant, in fact it is what I meant....

thanks for the important precision then...and well i am quite in the mood to go back to the journal so..let's go for that ...

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Fri, 31 Jul 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote: The world is bent on becoming, achieving, gaining and so there is fear of losing and dying. The human mind must go through that small 'hole' which it has put together, the 'self', to come upon this vast 'no-thingness' whose stability thought cannot measure.

This is about the analytical process programming, its domain cannot be the present, it always is in the future ,including a split of a second ahead , unless it is a practical doing like seeding the vegetables, digging the soil etc etc ad libitum.This is a mechanical vital action to keep the body functioning , it is based on some sort of knowledge whether it is innate or innate and developed from it..or acquired by practice and so on...

As often I wonder why would what is left of our brain mind search for more, for something better, the best , god, the absolute , a mental dream where all is perfect etc etc etc..yes why ?

If there is no frustration, no pain, no sorrow, no boredom , it has no reasons to try such attempt, to imagine it, unless by nature, being mechanical is is going to keep searching for more, bigger, better ,the best ,absolute and immortality, which it does actually...."I am going to invade the universe as I am the only one worthy of it" , do think 7 billion human, whether it is conscious or unconscious.

So basically there may be no need for sorrow and all of it to be there to make us searching for the absolute in the future so achieving something,whatever it is, it is the neurotic state of the analytical mechanical mind which is simply at work ....caught in this tumbled process ,repeating itself ad libitum with no end....in fact whatever the goal what matters now is thee process itself, the process is "in love" with itself..me is the analytical process itself as well as what is needed to make it work like personal memories and desires..fears and frustration,pain and self adoration etc etc.

It is not possible for the analyser to factually mention this "vast no-thingness" without having been the remote spectator of it....

K speaks from experiment, unless he is lying, when we do not unless we are lying, or unless this had been lived too....it is just a matter of fact here ,nothing more... like I am better than you....as if we go into that ,sorrow and war are right ahead.

K is mentioning stability here. I bear it in mind in one of those little corners used for that purpose to leave alone but alive some sayings like this one.

John Raica wrote: thought would like to cultivate it, make it acceptable and so respectable, to be worshipped. Thought cannot put (that no-thingness ?) into any category and so it thinks that it must be a delusion, or something for the select few. And so thought goes about its own mischievous ways, frightened, cruel, vain and never stable, though its conceit asserts there is stability in its actions, in the knowledge it has accumulated. This 'dream' becomes a reality which it has nurtured. But what thought has made real is not truth. 'no-thingness' is not a 'reality' but it is the truth. The small hole of the self is the 'reality' of thought, that skeleton on which it has built all its existence,its 'reality', its fragmentation , the pain, the sorrow and its 'love'. The reality of its 'gods' is the careful structure of thought, its prayer, its rituals, its romantic worship. In this 'reality' there is no stability or pure clarity.

Well , when such moment happens ,as far as I know ,thought as "me" opposite to others and to the world and universe cannot even say that it is delusion or that it is something for the select few...excuse me for such triviality but in such moment thought just bloody f......g shuts the f..k up !!! what happens is not even a surprise ...as if it was natural, which is the case I guess...

So I mean only a thought process as a "me" of course which does not know by experimentation such moment eventually can talk about what it does not know and qualify it of delusional state or that it would be for the selected few...

If that was true that it was for some selected few, then this entire universe is by nature insane in my view...if so why such contact is so peaceful , without fear, mentally fulfilling and so on ? why is sorrow gone, why the question of the meaning is gone, etc...because the Universe is not insane,but we surely are.

K qualifies thought as being mischievous, frightened, cruel, vain ,never stable, conceit, nice bunch of factual "qualities" ;-))

k: In this 'reality'(imagined by thought) there is no stability or pure clarity.

what I see to add right here is that the thought process when it never stops leading so working which is the case for us, never finds anything fully blossoming yet this is exactly what it is seeking,craving for, so this immense frustration of a so called life!!, as it is the process itself, the program itself in the absence of a sort of Intelligence above thought so using it properly , the process of thought which takes itself as a sort of "me"....whatever it does is not fulfilling by nature simply because that is not its purpose as a tool, as a tool it is made to be used by an X unknown factor which is not thought...when one task is finished , million of other tasks are trying to fulfil themselves..in a never ending tumble of frustrations and sorrows...

OK and so what ? let's say that there is some truth in that, if not this must be thrown away right now of course,

describing,explanations, is one thing but does it bring any trigger to somehow bring changes into all this analytical process? I say not it does not ....

I find that k has a remarkable way of describing all this in the notebook, which I heard was not supposed to be published..is that right John ?

John Raica wrote: The 'knowledge' of the self ( its 'known' reality ?) is (of) time, length, width and volume; and it can be accumulated, used as a ladder to become, to improve, to achieve. This 'knowledge' will in no way free the mind of the burden of its own (self-created?) 'reality'. You 'are' the burden; the truth lies in the seeing of it and that freedom is not the 'reality' of thought. The seeing is the (spontaneous) doing. This 'doing' comes from the stability, and from the clarity of 'no-thingness'.

So from the stability and clarity of the Origin !!

Are we the only "thing" living out of that ? well that is possible yes because all what is on earth is under the direct "control" of this Origin, only us we have this analytical tool which can choose to separate itself from "It", ...what a success...we call that of a good name: free will.......

Free, freedom , are some "no words" for me...apart from freedom from the analyser dictatorship, which k sum up with the title of one book: freedom from the known...

a little excerpt from it: Therefore our question now is, is it possible for the mind to live completely, totally, in the present? It is only such a mind that has no fear. But to understand this, you have to understand the structure of thought, memory and time. And in understanding it, understanding not intellectually, not verbally, but actually with your heart, your mind, your guts, you will be free from fear; then the mind can use thought without creating fear.

Can thought do that ? talking to me I say from experience no it can't..

Again without living instead of attempting to run away from what is wrong and brings very specific warnings like frustration, sorrow, pain ,suffering and all of it, I do not see such task possible at all...that is what I live so far....and some I know too at their own pace...

Having lived deep moments without fear, sorrow, pain, anxiety, frustration and with something in it totally fulfilling what is then life, when this is not there well, frustration is what is dominant....then frustration has to be lived and nos escaped etc etc etc

it seems to become more and more sort of continuous necessity to do that...

There already is partial relief of the heaviness of thought..I guess that this is a sort of "work" to be done....with the help of little helpers hidden behind what we try to run away from, like sorrow, pain, frustration, anxiety , suffering, meaningless life, war,the horror of our societies destroying people etc etc etc yet OK we have what we call "good machines"...plenty food for some in the fridge that we are now very suck with it, possessions, comfort , etc etc

whatever much of it we have ,this will never be enough as it does contain what we seek and because the analytical process keeps functioning stupidly in total blindness....and because too seeking is possibly not a root problem now ,a root problem as a child minded adult could now be the running away from that we are up to..as a child I naturally seek pleasure and satisfying objects and games up to some extend as an adult I have to understand the limitation of it, when I should meet fear, pain ,sorrow etc ...then the battle between desires and pain starts....then I am dead, next !!

For me at this stage one thing vitally matters before anything else: what is the state of my brain mind ?? Then we all collectively work and create the vital needs somehow,as there are so many ways to do that, a very easy task in fact when the thieves of the collective work that most of us are are non existent..

simple and easy it is ...

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Sat, 01 Aug 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

Hi John, thanks for this long talk...I have made my own sum up of it, then later on I will go back to it . This talk has many deeply interesting points.

John Raica wrote: Q : Sir, I feel that this analogy with science it's 'side-tracking' us. A scientist is looking at ( material) facts which fall within a certain pattern, and if he can find a beautiful equation to describe it, that's the 'insight' for him . So the scientist's insight is related to the phenomenal world, while the insight you are talking about cannot exist as long as the 'self' (identification) is there .

Dan: agreed.

John Raica wrote: K : You have touched on something: is it ( the inner process of?) time based that prevents insight ? When we say that the dissolution of the 'ego' is necessary before there is insight, you are asking for time. So, let us go slowly, the whole process of the 'ego' is time. Right ?

Dan: I see that the field of application, of expansion is by no means the present, it always is concerning the future whether it is a split of second ahead, whether it is immortality so a forever future thought.

John Raica wrote: Q : You mean, all thought is time, right ?

K Yes. So when you are still thinking in terms of time there is no insight

John Raica wrote: Q : And that ( survival dominated thinking?) creates the 'ego'. Now, why does this happen ?

K : Because it (the brain?) has found ( psychological) safety in that. It hasn't realise the insanity of that.

Dan: I am still wondering if at the very root it is not only about the known ,field of thought and the unknown , not the field of thought ,before to be about security..then the analyser is transcription all this with its too limited view such thing as being about survival and safety ..I ma dead serious here.

John Raica wrote: K : Wait. Be 'aware' of that. 'Aware' in the sense that you know (get) the full depth of these words « Time is ego ». Are you aware of the full significance, the depth of it, the meaning of it? You know what is the quality of it ?

time is ego, and time is the future, the now is gone with this process if it is the only at work we have, unless it is about mechanical real work in this present of course,without which human would not exist..vital yet a killer at the same time the analyser is.

John Raica wrote: K : Careful now, listen to it : the (old?) brain is reluctant to go into this because it may loose (the feeling of ?) complete (inner) security. As it has lived in (the field of ) time, it has worked in time, it has brought about (its own continuity in ?) 'time', in that (the brain has found a feeling of?) complete protection for itself.

Dan : or because it is now entering the unknown ???? so it cannot work and to keep working it constantly has to stay in the known, that it is poorly and possibly wrongly translating as survival and security

John Raica wrote: K : Therefore, look at it. Can you observe (inwardly) without 'time' (interfering?) , without the ( control of the?) 'ego' ? Can you observe yourself without saying 'I am conditioned, I must be free of it' and all the rest of it ? Look at 'yourself', who is made up (of a bundle of memories?) And the brain is finding security in that thing (self-consciousness ?) which it has created as the 'me'. Having ( a feeling of ?) security there the brain is reluctant (unwilling, resisting?) to let it go because you don't know if there is ( a different form of inner?) security . When there is (the clarity of) 'insight', there is complete security. (Thinking in terms of one's continuity in?) time doesn't give (an authentic) security. Now, you have listened to it. Has this been a (total inner ) challenge, a shock ? Why (not) ?

Dan:again is it about security or about the fact that the self has no capacity with the unknown ???? Insight capacities are of the unknown field, unknown to the "me" which is memory and the analytical program.

John Raica wrote: K : No, Why isn't it (perceived as a total?) challenge ? You haven't answered my question

Q : Why does the brain resist ( this total?) challenge ?

K That's right. Why are you 'resisting' ?

Q : We don't perceive the 'danger' of it ?

K No, no ! You are off ! You are preventing yourself (from seeing it?) by talking.

Dan: something is missing here as I see it,

John Raica wrote: K : No ! No ! ( the brain thinking in terms of?) 'time' ; you see how dangerous it is, and therefore you say 'It is the 'self' ' ; Of course, the time (process) 'is' the self. We are asking : why don't you see this tremendous danger ? Is it by 'habit' ? Is it that you are not (vitally) interested in it ?

Dan: danger in terms of personal suffering, hurt, etc for oneself, then expanding itself to the so called outer world for various causes and effects chain reactions it becomes mass murder at the other end of the rope and huge sorrow of a no life,that is the danger ....This can be seen in one go of a split second insightfully only of course, the usual analyser cannot see it entirely in one split of a second...

John Raica wrote: Q : Isn't it therefore a question of 'energy' ? It requires a tremendous energy to stay in that (non-movement?) It is so easy not to be in that !

K : Agreed. But when you have a (major existential crisis) the energy is there.

John Raica wrote: K : You never give it ! I'll put it this way : Without insight life is a burden- 'burden' in the biggest sense of the word . So there must be (this quality of?) insight, otherwise what is the point of living? What is the point of going through all this horror that one goes through ?

Dan:alas this makes deep sense I say.

John Raica wrote: K : Either it is (for you personally) a tremendous crisis or it's like this man who came to see me every day, and one morning he said : 'tell me about myself, really, I'm interested' I began to tell...and from that morning he never came back because it's too much. He saw it : 'It means that I'll have to give up my- etc, etc' . He couldn't take it. But here we 'take it', we assimilate a little bit (laughs)

John Raica wrote: K I don't differentiate between the two ! They are both the same. When a man is 'emotional' (dominated by emotions) he is nonsensical. When he is 'intellectual', just words, he is nonsensical too

John Raica wrote: Q : Take Mother Theresa and Hitler - we cannot put them in the same bracket...

K : I don't put them in the same bracket. All I say is they are working in the same field. They may be distant corners- it's an enormous field !

Dan: to reduce what happened to one insane man is false, there were billions insane person involved in that, as well as the great social helper never mentioned any roots of any kind leading to such disaster . The interesting point is that k see both in the same field of.....thought so of time..

John Raica wrote: K : So, if you transform yourself- not from 'this' to 'that'- but if you end 'this' (time-bound self- consciousness?) , then it affects the rest of the world.

John Raica wrote: Q : Sir, the man who has 'stepped out' of the field has affected the consciousness of those who are still in that field ?

K : Yes.

Q : The whole consciousness, of everybody ?

K : Yes. I am certain of it !

Q : What makes you feel so certain ?

K : It is so !

John Raica wrote: Q : Now, what makes a certain person respond to you more ?

K : I know-it may be karma- don't go back to it all !

Q : I want to know, sir.

K : It may be pure chance ! It may be that they had a hell of a life and they feel that something must (change?)

Q : Sorrow ?

K : Their sorrow, or they may see something beautiful which they have never seen before. They notice inwardly this extraordinary sense of beauty and they say : By Jove ! So, there are all these factors...

John Raica wrote: Q : The man also says that there is an ending of sorrow and that becomes a reward for them...

K : Of course ! So they are thinking in terms of expecting a reward

Q : So, is that the (psychological) barrier ?

K : Perhaps, sir ! That's one barrier.

Dan: that is the specificity of properly dealing the only way with what lies behind sorrow, it is impossible to live it if there are any expectation, the unconscious ones included..in other words the analyser cannot deal with such problems at all....this is my experience, and the main point I develop so far.

John Raica wrote: K : Yes, if he's willing to listen! Therefore the very listening is the awakening of that Intelligence. Then that intelligence can communicate with the other. You follow what I'm saying ? If you are actually free from all sense (expectation of?) a reward, that is the ending of sorrow. But this is not a reward ; it is so !

Dan: that is not the listening we know, at all, in my gut feelings. but indeed, this is practically never done with no expectation for a reward ,sign of the leadership of the totalitarian analyser as I see it...

Q : For you this is not a reward, but for us when you say that, you are holding a promise, a reward

Q2 : **Because we think in terms of our personal sorrow ending...

K : I know. There is not only the personal sorrow, there is also a global sorrow.

John Raica wrote: Q ; **Sir, if I may ask you : were you once in the field ?

K : I question it too !** (laughs)

Q : So, you say it is possible, but you haven't stepped out of that field- you were never in the field. So in other words the question is whether it is possible (for someone caught in the field of thought and time?) to step out of that field

K : A man who is not born in the 'field' may have more clarity than the man in the field. So he says' Get out. This is the way out !'

Q : But he didn't have to get out, he was out...

John Raica wrote: Q : But are you not saying that a man who is caught (in the field of thought-time) can step out ?

K : I say so, obviously !

Q : Do you know a single person who has done it ?

K : That's not my business !

Q : And you are concerned that people 'step out', otherwise you would not be at it...

K : Of course !

John Raica wrote: K: Look, Asit, you've got a good brain ! Why don't you use the brain for this ? What is preventing you ?

Q : I don't know, I wonder about it a great deal

K : Don't 'wonder' , you'll never find it ! If you've got a good brain why is it deteriorating ?

Q : What is in this brain, or mind, or body that is making it go in this direction though he sees it's the wrong direction ?

K : What is preventing ? I can give you a dozen reasons, what is the (central ) fact ? This is applicable to everybody ! Is it that we are innately, so profoundly lazy ? We've got to this ( time based?) lethargy...

Q : It is the easy way out. So easy...

K : Which means, we are seeking comfort ! Psychologically seeking comfort and we want to remain comfortably in that amorphous state of laziness !

Dan: is it that we are not shaken by such no inner life at all full of hurts and sorrows, by all the crimes permanently committed by our societies IN OUR NAMES, and that we choose to turn a a voluntary blind eye to all that, so that not only there is no awareness of the inner of course but even of the outer, do I know that when I agree with the myth of competition and the one of the best, both linked, do I know then that I am all the wars of this planet too???? ...then say after all this has little meaning so at least let us go for a comfortable shelter as a self cocooning where I may feel great....etc

John Raica wrote: K : I know, it may be European education. The western civilisation is much more stronger - with all their industry, their comfort, their money- you follow ? That's much more attractive than the other. I'm not saying that you are trapped in it ! But we like this 'amorphous laziness' of comfort !

Q : Is that all ?

K : That may be the central factor. You've got a candle, you've got the matches, but my God, to get up and go and light the match ! (laughs)

Q : But isn't that due to the lack of insight ?

K : No, no ! Because there may be a tremendous danger in getting up and trying to 'light the candle' ! He may see things which may shock him, frighten him , which might 'destroy' him !

John Raica wrote: Q : But you cannot define what this 'right place' is...

K : Oh yes, you can ! Didn't you hear what that man ( K) said ? If I have nothing psychologically in me, it's perfect order !

Q : And this 'putting things in their right place' is (related to) perceiving things clearly ?

K : To see things clearly !

Q : That puts it in the right place.

K : That's very simple, that doesn't need insight- from that comes insight !

John Raica wrote: K : You do not have to do it constantly. Once you put it (the psychological things?) in its right place, it's finished !

Dan: as a matter of experience this seems right yes.Each insight creates a new situation and again and again..

John Raica wrote: Q : In other words, sir, the moment (inwardly) there is attachment, things are not in the 'right place' ?

K : That's it !

Q : The moment there's no attachment it (the psyche) is automatically, forever in its right place ?

K : Right !

John Raica wrote: K : Of course, (the search for) pleasure, comfort : but where there is attachment there is no freedom. If you like to be caught in the net of comfort, fear, occasional pleasure, occasional sense of openness and so on- remain there !

John Raica wrote: K : Of course, sir, when you are in a crisis, you listen. When someone near to you dies , you listen damn well ; you are shocked by it. You are in a state of concentrated energy.

Q : Yes, because that suffering is affecting me within the field.

K : No ! It is 'challenging' you to question the field ! It is challenging you to say For God's sake, what is this ? Why am I going through this ? Why is everybody going through this? But you say : I need comfort, it must be somewhere- and you're off ! We've got plenty of (such ) challenges, all the time. I am challenging you right now, but you wouldn't even listen...

John Raica wrote: K : You see, you're off again ! You would not 'listen' even for five seconds. That's why I feel that in our life nobody has told us : 'I love you' . When someone is saying that, you listen, you don't discuss, you don't play around. You say, My God, is that so ? How marvellous !

Q : I think everybody has become very cynical and one doesn't...

K : Of course, absolutely cynical ! Because they have been cheated that way !

Q : It's happening so many times- (laughs) …

K : The Indian peasant, sir, is dirt poor, he has been so exploited, (but if) anybody comes and says 'I love you, I'll help you', he says 'Thanks God ! (laughs). I think we got somewhere.

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Sat, 01 Aug 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

paul daniel wrote: K : The Indian peasant, sir, is dirt poor, he has been so exploited, (but if) anybody comes and says 'I love you, I'll help you', he says 'Thanks God ! (laughs). I think we got somewhere.

still going on today as so many hoping for much money and all of it so for more possession and success have been cheated by the people lending money to them with huge % of interest to pay back so that so many commits suicide as the only way out they see out of this misery ..so bitter...

But this world is a collective creation, we all are the creator of that at our levels, k was not, yet totally negating it ,apart from exceptions.

If according to the last excerpt k always had been outside the field , of the dictatorship only of the analysing thought or me or whatever name suits,then it may have had difficulties to entirely comprehend our difficulties with this..I mean to suggest that this or that would have been a crucial step or point to deal with....

For my part I think, that k not being that concerned like we are by all that pain problems than we are unable to deal with, that he may have underestimate our problems caused by sorrow , the inability to deal with such question and so the ignorance of what to do with that...as well as a direct effect of not properly "dealing" with sorrow,which for me is that the unconscious then does not reveal itself , in what I know for myself this was what happened, there was no unconscious revealing itself apart from a few times in time of too heavy crisis hidden in talking nightmares, so no deep unconscious revelations by itself in mysterious way before I really got what to do with sorrow..which basically is : nothing !! but a nothing free of all expectation of any kind, this includes the unconscious part of the brain mind...

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Sun, 02 Aug 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

I think, that k not being that concerned like we are by all that pain problems than we are unable to deal with, that he may have underestimate our problems caused by sorrow ,

Or, Dan, perhaps he was aware of it but thought that the message should passed on to the future generations with more freedom from the daily chores

In fact John, he is very much concerned with all that, to know that it is needed to read all what he said and is transcribed in books...I have made a very intensive research about that out of extreme curiosity..

At some stage it just was not a subject at all any more for some reason I cannot know about, he seems to have gone more analytical...so "touching" more people.

As to some hypothetical future generation reading k,well I have no clue

John Raica wrote: In fact he was quoted to say (in this very PK book): "It is not difficult to see the truth (about something) but ...to let go the untruth". I Guess this natural, instinctive resilience of the human brain to let go its anchorage in the past is one of the big handicaps we've all inherited.

again here without having had "revelations" about the analytical mind's functioning, I do not see how it is possible to see any deep down universal or personal truth/falseness apart from those we are craving for or rejecting...I say that as this was like anyone my life for 40 years ish. then since some major parts of the analytical program as well as many unconscious cravings and unsolved problems are revealing themselves right after having dealt properly with sorrow, so after having act on duality towards unity without having a clue that this is what was happening , I can clearly see that it is not about the all brain ,which would be perhaps resilient, but it is only about a part of it, the analytical survival tool, which, bottom line, is incapable to deal with anything it has not recorded before ,as its activity is only happening in the field of the known...why is it so ,because it is in fact ONLY capable of watching its own recording, the one of the future included, and then it is analysing it to reach whatever its program are forcing it to accomplish...all this is happening in total blindness..

then again it is for me about the known and what is unknown to the analyser, the analyser can only be superficial, that is its set up, it is neither good nor bad, its domain of activity being what is superficial and as such its activity is vital to sustain physical life..

this is where we try to live...some say that we have a wonderful world of machines, that we are geniuses etc etc self prising themselves without having any clue that they do so because there is a tiny program which we have and which function is to give the analyser an incentive to push it to work, proud of its doings...as without those incentives like self pride, self rewarding, self admiration ,idea of profit , etc etc etc, the analytical program would simply not function at all..like it would not without desires of all sorts.....

with a IQ of 100 as well as 200 , basically we all have only an analytical life....

And honestly it seems that most of the world flock and self proclaimed elites goes for that only, especially since some have so many entertaining "machines" to keep the analyser busy 24/hours a day,night sleep included too! until another tragic event which will be there sooner or later break it all one more time as we never listen..the analyser working alone being flawed, another tragic event will necessarily take place... this shows the lack of personal interest for one's life according to me......

I deny the fact that we would even be egotistic....we are not even that, we are only running away into personal achievements , sign of escapism from life as it is..each one searching for personal absolute shelter...and because we have no links with others , then we use them in order to do so....then war,stealing and all of it is what happens....

well, it may really be game over you know....for now I mean, as all can really change dramatically swiftly now, I do not think that we are going to avoid the big tragic event which I personally do not fear, the falling empire in which is included a 2500 years old legend will not let it go easily ...

so the time is to understand I guess,as it always was in fact of course well so it was never that bad as this step is vital and possible a first one..

  • First and Last Freedom, The J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 2 'WHAT ARE WE SEEKING?'

  • J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 3 'INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY'

  • WHAT IS IT THAT most of us are seeking? What is it that each one of us wants? Especially in this restless world, where everybody is trying to find some kind of peace, some kind of happiness, a refuge, surely it is important to find out, isn't it?, what it is that we are trying to seek, what it is that we are trying to discover. Probably most of us are seeking some kind of happiness, some kind of peace; in a world that is ridden with turmoil, wars, contention, strife, we want a refuge where there can be some peace. I think that is what most of us want. So we pursue, go from one leader to another, from one religious organization to another, from one teacher to another.

  • Now, is it that we are seeking happiness or is it that we are seeking gratification of some kind from which we hope to derive happiness? There is a difference between happiness and gratification. Can you seek happiness? Perhaps you can find gratification but surely you cannot find happiness. Happiness is derivative; it is a by-product of something else. So, before we give our minds and hearts to something which demands a great deal of earnestness, attention, thought, care, we must find out, must we not?, what it is that we are seeking; whether it is happiness, or gratification. I am afraid most of us are seeking gratification. We want to be gratified, we want to find a sense of fullness at the end of our search.

  • After all, if one is seeking peace one can find it very easily. One can devote oneself blindly to some kind of cause, to an idea, and take shelter there. Surely that does not solve the problem. Mere isolation in an enclosing idea is not a release from conflict. So we must find, must we not?, what it is, inwardly, as well as outwardly, that each one of us wants. If we are clear on that matter, then we don't have to go anywhere, to any teacher, to any church, to any organization. Therefore our difficulty is, to be clear in ourselves regarding our intention, is it not? Can we be clear? And does that clarity come through searching, through trying to find out what others say, from the highest teacher to the ordinary preacher in a church round the corner? Have you got to go to somebody to find out? Yet that is what we are doing, is it not? We read innumerable books, we attend many meetings and discuss, we join various organizations - trying thereby to find a remedy to the conflict, to the miseries in our lives. Or, if we don't do all that, we think we have found; that is we say that a particular organization, a particular teacher, a particular book satisfies us; we have found everything we want in that; and we remain in that, crystallized and enclosed

..................................

You now k said or rather suggested somehow that sorrow can be solved for good , yet on his death bed John you recall me that he said this: sorrow i though I lost you!!

What I know by experience is that when the all brain so all capacities are turned on, there is no sorrow, no fear but a deep and fulfilling feeding energy where the questioning of the meaning is not, this weird other energy is free from sorrow and deeply in peace and much more..

What I know too, is that when back to usual use of the brain,sorrow is not solved nor is fear...the analyser has not at all deeply changed, it basically remain the same old chap ..

so if unlike k most human will spend their entire life with the absence of this weird energy ,yet it can be there from time to time,solving sorrow when it occurs remain a task to be accomplished.....

even there when this is properly done,there is real peace within oneself and togetherness is there by itself as a side effect of someone who is curing his hurts and wound, then he is not going to use others, that is already over at this stage without being constantly or even rarely or even not at all within the "benediction" of this weird universal bliss.....

the relief from sorrow, even partial through living it properly as it should be will already change the face of this planet ....

cheers..

Forum: Experimenter's Corner Mon, 03 Aug 2015
Topic: Pages from the Book of Life

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

the relief from sorrow, even partial through living it properly as it should be will already change the face of this planet ....

Hi, Dan, I believe that this is not feasible at this point in our cultural evolution. One main reason is that 'sorrow' is not perceived 'per se' - but our perceptions of sorrow are pre-processed by the human brain caught in the process of 'becoming' (or to use the 'holistic' K terminology , 'time') So the becoming ( hopeful ?) brain is aware that things are not what they should be, but immediately a way out is projected in a virtual dimension of time ( again the K holistic terminology is 'escaping')

Hi John, interesting points indeed.

agreed with what you imply here, like "not feasible" I would add: yet...so far the infatuated with itself....self or me or whatever, still has some illusions to live on,depends on where you live on this planet of course...as today many will die again under democratic and peaceful bombing, in the total indifference of the occidental world and friends bought for a cheap price, apart from a growing bunch of exceptions .....

I really would rather talk , my view only, of cultural and mental decline John ...since this weird energy crossed my life, this is totally obvious for me , in fact it is just there for me,there is no thinking about that..I see the analytical brain trying to find any proof that it is right and in that matter lies do very well too.

in such "weird" moments there is no pride, no comparison, no quality,no value, no hierarchy, no fear,no sorrow, no hope, no happiness, no joy and all of it, it is beyond all that so beyond analytical values and views ..there is so for me clearly no evolution but practical outer superficial changes in the way we produce vital needs....in that sense I agree with k who mentioned that for himself there is no psychological evolution...which implies that psychologically we are a finish product from our beginning as human,when was that? this is unknown !!...and in many cultures all over the planet we can see "living vestiges" than man did not always had been so insane and violent and not only turned on outside escaping away in time as you say....another myth ..

John Raica wrote: So the brain is taking its deeper feelings of sorrow, insufficiency, incompleteness, loneliness as being caused by something and therefore if it can change the cause it can 'fix' the whole issue. Obviously, (for us?) this cause-effect approach does not really work, so eventually the brain is getting entangled in its efforts to solve this 'proteic' issue. Then it usually gets into a 'don't care' state which inwardly is leading to indolence and decay ( still a deteriorating aspect of 'time'!)

indeed, I agree with that sequence in time of the analyser trying to solve, so it thinks, such deep problems...it does not work as it is meant to, is the fact it seems to be..leading to indolence and decay..I have drowned deeply into that..

John Raica wrote: So, to make an (ages ? ) old story short, the human brain got accustomed (conditioned) to put a 'positive' spin on its actual ( 'what is') state of inner fragmentation, isolation, sorrow by projecting a solution in the future or simply by ignoring the issue - and experiencing the comforts or discomforts of modern civilisation

"shortly put", I agree with what you say here John. A solution in the future is what religion do, politic does and science promises what the analyser do as it is its only field where it can expand itself..yes indeed there is some cocooning comfort for some...

tu dois connaitre cette histoire vraie: demain on rase gratis,ce fut une pub mise à la vitrine d'un coiffeur Parisien, le passant intéréssé qui voyait cela repassait le lendemain et bien sur le coiffeur montrait alor la pub : demain on rase gratis ,personne ne beneficia donc de ce rasage gratis....marrant non comme "baise couillon" ??

John Raica wrote: As a result, a whole 'quality' of the human brain- and of our civilisation as a whole- is going down the drain. Perhaps seeing this whole picture as an actual fact may be close to what you're calling 'living sorrow properly'.

Down the drain yes, for me I must say that it is not any news at all, it is just that some of what was hidden until now now is brought into the obvious in order to attempt a strike on mankind by some self proclaimed elites..somehow things are moving...by all means this is needed now one way or the other.

John: Perhaps seeing this whole picture as an actual fact may be close to what you're calling 'living sorrow properly.

It is yes. When it is about sorrow or rather about what is behind such sort of "no word" , it seems that you get it quite globally, this includes yourself and the global too both caught in this nasty "sensation" ...I never was searching for all that sort of "awareness" , but yes it is about seeing a whole picture without looking for it; I really feel it as a whole view in one second..it is a sort of concentrated piece of "factual" informations...

to be precise the whole picture includes the awareness of the self functioning, the state of sorrow so of frustration of life which are lived, the outer global circumstances( competition ,money, business, wars,banks,economy,politic,lies,false history,false science, and some truth lost in all that of course etc etc etc), the outer lies and falseness, the sensing of the suffering of people even if they look so happy, etc etc etc all this being quite permanent ...and living it, finding ways to live that as it is not in my case voluntary..it is there...this nearly destroyed me....

I do not have the impression to be "somewhere", It seems not to be about such thing..

John : Again, my second point is that the true solution is not to be found 'inside the box' but rather by taking a step back and seeing the total picture- and this might be the big difference between these teachings and the others..

The Buddha’s teaching are mostly gone for me as he wrote nothing, yet some may be left but it is not the original words that we have....so I am cautious with that.

I have read about remarkable insights made by north and south american Indian shamans , close to what k would tell about fear close to us so , to the depth of this brain mind...

I don't know for you, but sometimes i feel all that entirely hopeless in the present..for me what we call modern science which takes root in the ancient Greece and Rome has clearly postponed an eventual awakening by giving us more ways to escape into anything but living "what is"..this hopelessness is probably as usual the sign as any sorrow is that unconsciously there is again a or more craving , an analytical goal in mind so another escape..which is could be this : we change the world according to this and that and all will be fine...

The analyser keeps staying, and that is entirely logical, in its too limited field of the known, too limited to be able to live the full span of life, as there is nothing permanent as such at all apart from the huge rock in the mountains if and when compared to our life span, psychologically speaking; we can just built up together a relative stable outer vital security , if working in a togetherness spirit, which we refuse....not a capacity of the analyser.

At this point whether the pain of such nonsense is lived ,whether it is not...in our culture it is negated , it does not exist,so is never lived so it is escaped, yet of course it does exist, but poor words have no say here....

K had tried a wide approach of all those problems we have..sorrow is one of them, then at some stage he has develop different approach where sorrow was not there..

As we both said, to read k practically implies to read all of it with care...I remember that he was advising that too..

you mention other teachings,which one had you in mind ??

For me I see some sort of link between old Chinese wisdom, Indian as in India world, Native Indians and any other who has now disappear, I do not see any in the obvious in what is called the occidental world , yet hidden behind apparent fantasies we could read tales from Homer 800 BC for example which seems to talk about all that using some sort of code and middle ages tales up to Jean de la Fontaine..but mostly hidden in some sort of apparent fantasies and not as obvious criticism of man's arrogant and perverted attitude ...

So k's words seem out of the league yes...

Well..........thanks...