Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wim Opdam's Forum Activity | 2227 posts in 4 forums


Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 08 Jul 2019
Topic: The Work of David Bohm

Tom Paine wrote: I heard about that too. I know Bohm suffered with depression and that fwir K expressed disappointment that Bohm never ‘got it’. And that apparently hurt him deeply.

If you look at David's history, there are a number of remarkable things to note. I think a special one has a lot to do with the rumor.

 For example, his illness has a family history with which he and Saral did not want to burden their offspring and they decided to remain childless.

Just in that period of so-called removal, the book "Lives in the shadow of Krishnamurtii" has been published.

I can well imagine that given their life it was a bitter pill for them to swallow and may need some time to process.

If you then read his thanks to K. in 'thought as a system' that is of a later date, he apparently stepped over this personal tragedy and proceeded on what they had both worked on.

the greater than himself was apparently more important or perhaps his passion for the whole was so overwhelming that he, like K., could not help but keep talking about it.

It is my current view of the matter with great respect for David and Saral.

Clive Elwell wrote: Are you saying, Wim, that there are two dialogues that STILL have not been published?

I've looked into it and if this claim of David Peat is right , they STILL are not published !

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 17 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell wrote:

Dan McDermott wrote:

Believe it or not there is some clarification to come out of all of that...I don't 'know' what choiceless awareness is?

I do believe it - or rather I see it. Knowing and awareness are different dimensions, and they cannot co-exist, can they?

Hi Clive and Dan,

Something is not quit right it seems to me.

atoms, cells and organs are all at different levels of existence and the higher the level the other levels are involved so to me it seems that in awareness knowing is co-existing but not at the same level, knowing is involved in awareness but not the primary and/or controlling factor.

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 19 Jul 2019
Topic: The Work of David Bohm

Manfred Kritzler wrote: Again, this is expressed in thought and therefore always open for change through another thought or “beyond”.

That's so very true, Manfred.

Here is something about David Bohm's activity:

Science, Spirituality, and the Present World Crisis

(Presented at the 12th International Transpersonal Association Conference by David Bohm; this conference ran from June 20 to June 25th, 1992)

Stanislav Grof introduces David Bohm: Good morning again. As I mentioned earlier this morning while introducing Dr. Karl Pribram, one of the reasons why traditional science refuses to accept spirituality as a relevant and legitimate dimension of existence is a mechanical understanding of the brain. However, this in itself has much deeper roots in the mechanistic understanding of the physical universe itself which is based on a marriage between philosophical materialism and the selective views of certain ideas of Isaac Newton and Rene Descartes.

While the pioneers of modern physics have in the first decades of the twentieth century transcended all the essential aspects of the Newtonian-Cartesian paradigm this way of thinking still has a firm grip on many other scientific disciplines whose theories were historical derivatives of this paradigm. Such as biology and medicine and then particularly psychology and psychiatry.

Many of us who consider spirituality to be an important dimension of existence would like to feel that this does not automatically exclude us from the ranks of science. I find it very encouraging that many of the great scientists who developed quantum-relativist physics found their own revolutionary contributions to be compatible with deep appreciation of the spiritual or mystical dimension of existence, the prime example being Albert Einstein.

This morning I have the great honor and privilege to welcome among us Professor David Bohm, one of the leading physicists of our time. His theory of holomovement is considered by many to be one of the most creative and imaginative accomplishments in the history of science. Dr. Bohm’s concept of the explicate and implicate order, of the relationship between consciousness and matter, between thought, intellect and intelligence, his outline of the rheomode (which is a form of language that doesn’t use nouns) – they have all have become a source of inspiration for theoreticians from many different disciplines. Although initially conceived as an attempt to solve the many paradoxes of quantum physics, his work has profound implications that extend far beyond the boundaries of this discipline. These include for example, an entirely new understanding of human history, of creativity in general, and of art in science in particular, and of economy and politics.

Since the focus of our conference is the global crisis, I would like to emphasize especially Dr. Bohm’s important contribution to the understanding of the roots of this crisis that he sees in thinking in terms of separateness and of fragmentation rather than wholeness

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 20 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote @782:

so to me it seems that in awareness knowing is co-existing but not at the same level, knowing is involved in awareness but not the primary and/or controlling factor.

I was hoping you would respond to Tom's follow-up to your post, Wim. How do you see knowing being involved in awareness?

I have made several attempts to answer this, but in the end I did not post them because it did not seem obvious.

I am currently in a situation that is unique to me, but that is not unique to many in the hospital. I have been diagnosed with cancer and the way I deal with it surprised myself. No perspective, no doom scenario, no optimism, but an acceptance of 'what is' and the awareness of attempts that emotion wants to take control, which, precisely because of that perception, flow away again.

The reply from Huguette is, in my opinion, another example of an awareness full of references to thought.

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 24 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell wrote: Do you want to share more, Wim, about your situation and feelings?

despite the awareness of all possible scenarios, I remain surprised about my calmness and the obviousness of not clinging to or avoiding one of those scenarios, even setbacks in the treatment do not seem to touch me.

this morning something went through my mind: 'if we are confronted with something unknown, we form an idea of it. That idea is the obstacle to looking again / freshly, but we distort the idea and think that it is true, but the truth remains something unknown! '

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell wrote: If I may ask, Wim, would you say that your own calm attitude to death has come about because of your exposure to Krishnamurti's words?

That's a difficult one to answer, it appears to be a natural way to be, not based on or the consequence of something. I suppose that's why it is still so surprising to me.

At the same time I remember some things from my youth which i could not express in words and now are capable and seeing that as result off studying the Teaching.

One of the last QOTD: 'Awareness is the discernment of what is true' seems to be a drive which always was there without knowing what it was why a frequent response was 'Wim, you are too serious'

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 26 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Dear people,

Reading the dialogue back, I cannot avoid the impression that a word has been used that possible leads to a wrong interpretation.

Although the words "cancer" and "death" are very closely related in our collective memory, in my situation this appears not to be the case.

what I wanted to express was that it was not minimized compared to it could have been worse or they could heal so much today. The Dutch word for that was translated as such without alternatives.

For the sake of clarity and to prevent misinterpretation, which could lead a life of its own, this had to be corrected.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 28 Jul 2019
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell qouting K. wrote: So there is only a negative approach, which is to be integrally aware of the process of fear or ignorance.

NEGATIVE approach and negative thinking are for us the only keys to the revolution in the mind But what exactly does Krishnaji mean by it ?

From the seventh public talk in Madras on 12 November 1958.

' I was saying negative thing is the highest form of thinking. We never think negatively; we only think positively: That is we think from conclusion to conclusion, from pattern to a pattern , from a system to a system - that I must be this; I must acquire some virtuev, follow this or that path, do certain disciplines. '

May be this item, this approach, this focus is in need of a new topic, what do you think ?

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 29 Jul 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Hi Clive,

According to K.'s description it is not the opposite of 'positive thinking', which he describes as within the realm of thought.

So it can't be based on knowledge but at the same time he suggests that it is the only thing man can do !

Is it then the negation of the 'positive thinking' ?

Only those words positive and negative have such strong connotation with two sides of a coin and already put one on the wrong track, that's my feeling when I look into it.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 30 Jul 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Hi Dan and Clive

this question kept me busy for some days now and came up with this:

'Thinking' takes place in an active present and 'positive' is something we like, a conclusion, a solution and gives satisfaction. 'Negative' on the other hand, if it's seen at a broader dimension is something one can see through, likewise by a dia. So if one is able to let the colouring of the object (memory/thought) behind, one can see what's behind.

Both your replies are as it were based on positive thinking, but if you look through it, then the true meaning becomes clear automatically.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 30 Jul 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Dan McDermott wrote: I can't follow this Wim...what is a "dia"?

in the old days, before digital camera's, you put a film in your camera and in de shop they developed it into foto's, but one could buy a different film wich they put in frames and then you could at home with a slide projector project them on a screen. Now i see the translation of the slide projector, i suppose you called them slides :) but in our language it's called dia and here it is one word !

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 01 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

What is the chance that within one week one is in several occasions directed to the same text from Krishnaji.

Came upon a text " The importance of Negative thinking " which appeared to be the full text from the talk I first referred to. I found the text so clear that I offer it here:

'I think almost all serious people must have thought a great deal about the necessity of bringing about a radical change in the quality of the mind. We see, as things are in the world, that there is no fundamental alteration or change in the human mind. Of course, through pressure, economic and social, through various forms of religious fear, through new inventions and so on, there is change, but this change is always peripheral, on the outside, and obviously such change does not bring about a deep, radical change in the quality of the mind. You must have noticed that society always follows a pattern, certain formulas, in the same way as every individual follows certain concepts, ideals, always moving within the pattern. You must have noticed it not only in yourself and in society but in all our relationships, and you must have wondered how to bring about a deep, lasting, integrated change, so that the interaction between the outer and the inner does not bring about corruption. I do not mean anything mysterious by the « inner ». It is the inner quality of the mind that I am talking about, not inward things which the mind imagines and speculates about. All society, all human existence is a matter of this interrelationship between the outer and the inner which is constantly fluctuating and always modifying. And if I may, I would like to talk about the possibility of a radical change because I think it is very important. After all, we are social entities and we must live by action. Life is action. One cannot just sit and speculate, neither can one merely carry on with the corruption because, as we know, it only breeds contradiction within ourselves and everlasting torture and struggle. So how is the mind to change? How is there to be a radical change in the total consciousness, not only on the upper levels of the mind but also at the deeper levels, and not along a set pattern? Following a pattern is not a change at all; it is merely a modified continuity of what has been. How is one to really change the quality, the substance of one's consciousness, totally? I do not know if you have thought about it, or are you merely concerned with outward changes which are brought about by every form of social and economic revolution, every new invention? If we are concerned with a total change of consciousness, of the quality of the mind, then I think we must think negatively because negative thinking is the highest form of thinking, not the so-called positive thinking. The positive is merely the pursuit of a formula, a conclusion and all such thinking is limited, conditioned.

I hope you are listening rather than just hearing because I want to go into something rather difficult, if I can, and I hope we shall be able to proceed with it together. But if you are merely hearing and not listening, then you will be caught at the verbal level and words then become over-significant. Words are only the means of communicating something. So I hope you are going to listen without any desire to understand mere ideas. I have no ideas because I think they are the most stupid things; they have no substance, no reality, they are just words. So I hope you are listening in the sense of trying to see the problem, just to see it, not to struggle to understand it or resolve it, but to see this extraordinary complex problem which we have – the problem of bringing about a total change in consciousness, in the mind. As I was saying, negative thinking is the highest form of thinking. We never think negatively; we think only positively. That is, we think from a conclusion to a conclusion, from a pattern to a pattern, from a system to a system. That I must be this, I must acquire some virtue, follow this or that path, do certain disciplines. The positive thinking is always in the grooves of our own conditioned thinking – I hope you are watching your own mind, your own thought – , and that way only leads to further limitation of the mind, to narrowness of the mind, to pettiness of action; it always strengthens the self-centred activity. Negative thinking is something entirely different, but it is not the opposite of positive thinking. If I can understand the limitations of positive thinking, which invariably leads to self-centred activity, if I can understand not only verbally, intellectually but as the whole process of human thinking, then there is a new awakening in negative thinking.

Most of us are attached to something – to property, to a person, an idea, a belief, an experience – are we not? You are attached to your family, your good name, your profession, your guru, to this and that. Now, this attachment invariably breeds suffering and conflict because the thing to which you are attached is constantly changing, obviously. But you do not want the change; you want to hold on to it permanently. So, being aware that attachment breeds sorrow, grief, pain, you try to cultivate detachment. Obviously both attachment and the cultivation of detachment are positive ways of thinking. Detachment is not the negation of attachment, it is merely attachment continued under a different verbal garb. The mental process is entirely the same, if you have ever noticed it. For instance, I am attached to my wife. In that there is pain, struggle, jealousy, frustration, and to escape from all that, I say I must be detached, I must love in an impersonal manner – whatever that may mean – I must love without limitation, and I try to cultivate detachment. But the centre of my activity in attachment or detachment is exactly the same thing. So, our thinking which we call positive is a conflict of the opposites or an endeavour to escape into a synthesis which again creates an opposite. Take Communism, it is the antithesis of Capitalism, and eventually through struggle the Communists hope to create a synthesis, but because it is born of the conflict of opposites that synthesis is going to create another antithesis. And this process is what we call positive thinking, not only outwardly, socially, but inwardly also.

Now if one understands the total process of all this, not only intellectually but actually, then we will see that a new way of thinking comes into being. It is a negative process unrelated to the positive. The positive way of thinking leads to immaturity, to a mind that is conditioned, shaped, and that is exactly what is happening with all of us. When you say you want to be happy, you want Truth, God, to create a different world, it is always in terms of the positive, which is to follow a system that will produce the desired result, and the result is always the known and it becomes again the cause. Cause and effect are not two different things. The effect of today will be the cause of tomorrow. There is no cause, isolated, which produces an effect; they are interrelated. There is no such thing as a law of cause and effect, which means that there is really no such thing as what we call karma. To us, karma means a result with a previous cause, but in the interval between the effect and the cause there has been time. In that time there has been a tremendous lot of change and therefore the effect is never the same. And the effect is going to produce another cause which will never be merely the result of the effect. Do not say, « I do not believe in karma », that is not the point at all. Karma means, very simply, action and the result, with its further cause. Sow a mango seed and it is bound to produce a mango tree – but the human mind is not like that. The human mind is capable of transformation within itself, immediate comprehension, which is a breaking away from the cause, always.

So negative thinking is not thinking in terms of patterns because patterns imply a cause which will produce a result which the mind can manipulate, control and change. With that process we are all very familiar. What I am trying to convey is a negative thinking which has no causation. This may all sound too absurd, but we will go into it and you will see. We will approach it differently.

Most of us are discontented, are we not? We are discontented with our job, with our wife, husband, children, neighbours, society or whatever it is. I want position, I want money, I want love. We know all this. Now discontent with something is positive; but discontent, in itself, is negative. I will explain. When we are discontented, what is actually taking place? If I am discontented with my job, with myself, what is happening? I want to find contentment, through this or through that. So the discontent is canalized until it finds something which will be satisfactory, and then it fades away. That is what we call positive action, – to find something which will make us happy. But without the flame of real discontent – not discontent with something – life has no meaning. You may have a marvellous job, an extraordinary brain, get degrees and be able to discuss, quote, but your discontent has merely taken the shape of cleverness, and there you are completely sterile. You started with discontent, and at school perhaps you were very good, but as you grew, that discontent became stratified into cleverness or into some form of technique, and there you are satisfied because you feel you have capacity and can function. That again is positive thinking. Whereas negative thinking is just to be in a state of discontent, and such a mind is a very disturbed mind. It is not satisfied and it is not seeking satisfaction because it sees that satisfaction leads only to that positive action which we all seek. To find a way to be satisfied everlastingly means to be dead. And that is what you want; you call it peace of mind and say, « for God's sake give me some corner in this universe where I can die peacefully ». So the positive action leads always to death. If you can see that, then you will see that a negative way of thinking is taking place. Therefore the negative way of thinking never starts with a conclusion, because one sees where conclusions lead.

So the negative way of thinking is the maintenance, the sustenance of the quality that is discontent – discontent in itself, not with something. Please do not get caught at the verbal level but see the significance of this. But we must understand that positive thinking is conditioned thinking and that there is no change in that; there is modification but no radical transformation. Radical transformation is only in the negative thinking, as we saw in relation to attachment and to discontent. This positive thinking leads only to a dull mind, an insensitive mind, a mind that is not capable of reception, a mind that thinks only in terms of its own security – either the security of the individual or of the family, group or race, which you can observe very clearly in world politics.

After all, this earth is ours, yours and mine. This earth which is so marvellous, so beautiful, so rich, is ours to live on happily, without all this fragmentation, without being broken up into different fields called England, Germany, Russia, India. Yet we are battling to keep up the separation. Nobody thinks of this whole world as ours, nobody says, « let us do something together about it ». Instead, we have this fragmentary way of thinking which we call positive, or we pursue some idea of internationalism, which is equally silly. If I can see that, then there is a different approach, a different feeling of the mind, whether it be the Russian or the German or whatever mind it is. Then there is no such thing as the nonsense of patriotism; there is the love of the earth – not your earth and my earth, you cultivating your little field and I cultivating mine, and quarrelling over it, but it is our earth.

Now when we see that this positive way of thinking is destructive, then the negative way comes into being. To think negatively there must be sensitivity, sensitivity both to the beautiful and to the ugly. The man who is pursuing what he calls the beautiful and avoiding the ugly, is not sensitive. The man who pursues virtue without understanding that which is not virtuous, merely avoiding it, is invariably insensitive. Please think this out with me, feel it out and you will see. So appreciation of the beauty of a tree, a leaf, the reflection on still waters, is not sensitivity if you are not also aware of the squalor, the dirt, the way you eat, the way you talk, the way you think, the way of your behaviour.

Under this tree it is very beautiful, very quiet, there is lovely shade and light, and just outside there is that filthy village with all the squalor and dirt and the unfortunate human beings who live there but you are not aware of it. So we are always wanting beauty, truth and God and avoiding the other, and that pursuit is the positive and leads to insensitivity, if we are not aware of the other. And the positive way of erecting buildings for dances, having special schools for dancing, all that business becomes a personal racket, satisfying to the mind that is only thinking positively. Creation is not positive, ever. Creation is the state of mind in which there is no positive action as we know it.

So, radical transformation takes place in the mind only when there is this negative thinking. As I said the other day, the thinking that we know of is always in words or symbols. I do not know if you have noticed that there is thinking without words but that thinking is still the result of the positive word. I will explain. You always think in words, symbols, do you not? Please look. The word, the symbol becomes very important to thought. It is the basis of all our thinking; there is association through memory and the memory is a picture, a word, and from that we proceed to think, again in symbols, words. That is all we know, and also if you are very alert, aware, you can see that there is thinking without the word, without the symbol. I am not going to give an example because then you will get lost, so please capture the significance, for negative thinking is not related to thought-with-the-word. Unless you see this you will not see what follows. I am thinking aloud; I have not worked it out at home and then come here to speak it out. So please see this, not merely verbally or speculatively but actually experience that thought functions in words, in symbols and also that thought functions without the word and the symbol. Both these are positive ways of thinking because they are still in the realm of the opposites. Let me put it differently.

You must have watched your mind how vagrant it is, how it wanders all over the place, one thought pursuing another. When you try to examine one thought, another comes in. So the mind is full of this movement, the agitation of thought. The mind is always occupied with thought. Thought is the instrument of the mind; so the mind is never still. Do not at once say, « How am I to make the mind still? » That is all too immature, stupid, because it means again a positive following of some pattern. So, realizing the incessant activity of the thought-producing mechanism, through memory, through association, being aware of that, cannot the mind empty itself of this mechanism? Do not ask how, just listen, because understanding is instantaneous, it is not a process which will ultimately get you a mind emptied of thought. If you see the positive, destructive way, – of the mind's activity of producing thought and being controlled by it and then trying to empty the mind – if you can see the falseness or the truth of it, then you will also see that the mind can empty itself of itself, of its limitations, of its ego-centricity, of its self-centred activities. Please go with me a little. The mind is perpetually active, producing and controlling thought. It realizes that, and says, « I must be quiet », but that generally means quiet through control, which is again positive, destructive and limiting. But you can see if you go a little further that the mind can be emptied of thought, can free itself from the past, not be burdened by the past. It does not mean that memories are not there but they do not shape or control the mind. Now all that is still positive thinking. If you see the falseness of it, the mind will invariably go further, which is, the mind then is not the slave of thought but it can think what it wants. I do not know how to put this. As I said, I am thinking aloud with you and you will have to excuse me if I try different ways of putting it.

I do not know if you have ever tried to think without being a slave to thought. With most of us the mind is a slave to thought, it pursues thought, contradictory thought and all the rest of it. If you perceive that and empty the mind, it can then think, freed from thoughts associated with memory; and if you go further into it, you will see that the mind which is free – not in the sense of the opposite of slavery, but free in itself – then that mind, emptied of memory, can think in a negative way. Then you will see that the mind, being completely empty of systems, formulas, speculations, thoughts associated with memory, experiences and so on, can perceive that there is a state in which there is action in this world, not from fullness but from emptiness.

You see we are acting now with full minds, overcrowded minds, minds that are incessantly active, in contradiction, struggling, adjusting, ambitious, envious, jealous, brutal or gentle and so on. You follow? We are acting on that level. The mind, being full, acts. That action can never produce a new mind, a new quality of mind, a fresh mind, an innocent mind – and it is only such an innocent, fresh mind that can create, that is in a state of creation. The mind sees that, and if the mind can empty itself, then the action that is born out of emptiness is the true positive action, not the other. That is the only true, positive, creative action, because it is born out of emptiness. If you have done any painting, written a poem, a song, you will find the deep feeling comes out of nothingness. But a mind that is crowded can never feel that nothingness and can therefore never be sensitive.

One sees that there can be a radical change in the quality of the mind, which is absolutely necessary now because the present society is a dead society, reforming itself through various forms of anaesthesia and pumping activity into itself. If you as an individual are to change fundamentally, radically, deeply – and therefore change society – then this whole thing that I have described must take place. Then beauty has quite a different significance, as has ugliness, because beauty is not the opposite of the ugly. An ugly face can be beautiful. But such beauty is not conceived by the mind that has avoided ugliness.

So if you have really listened and do not try to do anything about it – because whatever you do will be so-called positive and therefore destructive – then it is enough. It is to see something lovely and leave it alone, not try to capture it, not take it home and smother it by thought.

If you have seen for yourself, not through my persuasiveness, not through my words, my influence, if you have felt the beauty, the extraordinary quality of the mind that is empty, then from that emptiness there is a new birth.

It is this new birth which is needed, not the going back to Mahabharata, Ramayana, Marx or Engels, or revivalism. The mind that is really creative is the empty mind, not the blank mind or the mind that merely wishes to be creative. It is only the empty mind that can understand this whole thing – the extraordinary process of thought and thought emptying itself of its own impetus. Then you will see that there is a radical, deep change which is not brought about by influence, circumstances, culture or society. It is that mind which will create a new society. And the moment it creates a new society, that society is already in corruption. All societies are in corruption because that which is created is ever dying. Therefore, recognizing that no society, no tradition, no knowledge is permanent, we can see that the mind which is empty is creative, is in a state of creation.

The Seventh Public talk in Madras on November 12, 1958

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 12 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Clive Elwell wrote:

Manfred Kritzler wrote #41:

For me to name negative thinking as thinking is a little odd. Thinking is for me an active process. Negative thinking is for me the same or similar like choiceless awareness or „the seeing is the doing“. This is a passive attitude. It’s not a kind of doing, but rather stillness which includes the movement of thought at the beginning. After a while thinking is dissolving. The observer and the observed is merging.

I would go along with this, Manfred. I think you have captured the essence of the meaning of "negative thinking" well.

During hours of rest and waiting, this subject has kept me busy and still keeps me busy. The choice of words may be an English expression but it also strongly resembles a conclusion and that is precisely something that is missing in 'negative thinking'. as well as a cause and / or effect. there are indeed similarities with 'choiseless awareness', but are there no differences also ? Krishnaji speaks of the highest form of intelligence, something he does not do with 'choiseless awareness'.

as I look at it now, it looks like two facets of the same diamond, the same event.

Let me try to put it differently: Take the entire 'Teaching', it has not come about without cause, without purpose, with 'choiseless awareness' and with 'seeing is doing', where the thinking is employed instead of leading ?

P.s. in the last sentence 'it has' must surely be Has it because of the ?

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 14 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Dan McDermott wrote: Can thought ever understand its limitation?

Can this question be answered ? It is a closed question. IF ONE says 'yes' the answer was already in thought! If one says 'no' the answer was already in thought If one says ' I have to negate thought altogether ' is also from reading K.

BUT This does remind me OF David Bohm explaning a scientific approach whereby the absence of a positive and/or negative measuring result also has a specific meaning. The absence of energy lost, of movement, the presence of stillness, openess

In that case the mind is open, completely available for new information, sensitive and not partly, the possibility for intelligence to act.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 15 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

however we look at 'time', from which dimension, on what scale, it remains a delimitation in the whole, at best as a part, but rather the way we deal with it as a fragment.

Every change, superficial or fundamental, only occurs in the "Present", the "NOW" and that, like the whole, cannot be characterized by a beginning or end.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 17 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

as far as I have been able to ascertain, the term "negative thinking" was only used in India in the year 1948, before and afterwards "right thinking" is used.

does anyone have an explanation for that?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 18 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Clive Elwell wrote: What makes you think that K used the terms "negative thinking" and "right thinking" equivalently, Wim?

it was not my intention to see these two concepts as equivalent, although it may be worth investigating, but it intrigued me that he used it only for a very short time, was that because of an insight that it led to confusion rather than clarification?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 20 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Clive Elwell wrote: In fact such meditation is the withering away of all effort, of all concepts of achieving. It is pure negation. I think it encompasses “negative thinking”.

This seems to be the case, as far as it's been observed and it also encompasses 'creative thinking', something new is taking place in mind and action.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 21 Aug 2019
Topic: How does one go to the very source of thought?

One Self wrote: We have a very poor audience in here:)

if someone compares himself with the rest and apparently feels himself on a stage, such someone only sees and hears poor audience, that makes sense, because such someone only sees and hear the self ! ;-()

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 23 Aug 2019
Topic: How does one go to the very source of thought?

One Self wrote: I am willing to sacrifice oneself if jack is thrown out of this site I will delete oneself also for the sake of Krishnamurti and the world. And I mean it.

the seeing is the doing and not depending on anything or anyone and it is never a sacrifice to do what one has to do and as I've said earlyer in this thread: " the Teaching is not in need of attackers or defenders but of understanders " ! The used language is only proof of the actual fact that One Self as well as Jack are in one of the first two categories and certainly not in the last one.

i accept the fact that i'm possibly wrong in this observation

every reader must and can determine that for himself, neither I nor anyone else is needed for that, only a clear perception is sufficient!

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 25 Aug 2019
Topic: How does one go to the very source of thought?

One Self wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

the seeing is the doing.

Have you realized that by your self or it is an extract from k which in the second case it is merely words and is useless?

words in themselves always remain worthless as long as they are not looked through and the true meaning is revealed!

as long as ones self, my self, your self or anyone elses is involved, this meaning will not produce any action.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 25 Aug 2019
Topic: How does one go to the very source of thought?

One Self wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

the seeing is the doing.

Have you realized that by your self or it is an extract from k which in the second case it is merely words and is useless?

words in themselves always remain worthless as long as they are not looked through and the true meaning is revealed!

as long as ones self, my self, your self or anyone elses is involved, this meaning will not produce any action.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 26 Aug 2019
Topic: Meetups in Brussels

Hi Sanjeev

You can find the diffrent opportunities on the Belgian website: http://www.krishnamurti.be.

you have to take into account the fact that Belgium in the Brussels region is bilingual: French and Flemish (Dutch) and mostly the flemish part is more english minded.

I hope to have served you with this information.

Kind regards Wim

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 29 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:

Clive Elwell wrote:

Are you talking about the state when there is no separation between the observer and the observed, Jose?

I think so, Clive. The observer determines what is appropriate or not. In a very rare state when my mind was really clear, "I" observed a show stopper thought which was: "this state is going to vanish". There was no reaction. I did not name that thought as innapropriate even though it was useless.

Or is it something else?

within awareness, thoughts can be a tool ! There is a saying: "fire is a good servant, but a bad master" and I think that is the big difference.

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 30 Aug 2019
Topic: Negative thinking

Manfred Kritzler wrote: I always had problems with the differentiation between practical (right) and psychological (false) thought. For me it is one movement which is coming together. To make a distinction between the two by thought means for me a split up in two separate parts, which doesn’t really exist.

Hi Manfred

I have a similar problem with this duality, but actually based on another argument, namely there is no border between these two. there is nothing wrong with wanting to be able to do something well and spend a lot of time on it, and dormant then comes to be the best!

By the way, are you aware of a biography of David Bohm: 'The essential David Bohm'?

Therein is a chapter with letters from David to his brother-in-law about this matter, really beautiful. Quoting a quote would do the whole thing unjustice, it is available as an e-book, really a must!

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 05 Sep 2019
Topic: Meetups in Brussels

Patricia Hemingway wrote: For more than a week, the silence was golden.

It was and because some SELF is misusing this topic for his on going argument with Jack I'll would close this topic if i could.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 08 Sep 2019
Topic: What is this Life?

pondering on my sickbed!

my body is fighting the injected chemo of the past week. how does that body know that this was unnatural and why does the mind accept this as 'necessary'?

in the meantime, the mind is constantly trying to get out of that awkward situation by bringing up beautiful memories or suggesting a pleasant future situation.

every heartbeat makes my ears ring, my brain seems to be two sizes too small and an unsavory taste of metal plagues my mouth.

what makes that this unnatural cell growth can only be combated with unnatural means?

Why is the same intelligence, that struggle against that unnatural matter, incapable of recognizing the unnatural growth of psychological thinking?

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 09 Sep 2019
Topic: What is this Life?

Clive Elwell wrote: The future will be determined by just HOW I meet the challenges that life sends.

Instead of the predicted 2 days, the body has more or less already calmed down after 24 hours. The mind is willing to tackle the garden - which needs maintenance - but at the same time knows that the body is not yet capable of doing so and despite the sun shining invitingly, a fragile balance between these two energies will have to be observed taken. Awareness of the overwhelming willpower will have to give priority to the physical signals of the body. A delicate game of balance that requires constant attention.

No matter how clear and self-evident it is in this situation, why not that self-evident when looking at psychological and technical thought?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 10 Sep 2019
Topic: What is this Life?

Clive Elwell wrote: Hello Wim, thank you for sharing from your sick bed. You are living such a real, urgent situation that it is difficult for someone who is not facing such a fundamental thing to respond.

Hello Clive,

Is that not the essential difference? We all live in such a real, urgent situation! Only now is it just physically palpable for me and the mental and physical energies are there for the taking.

And at the same time, the thought is also physical - brain matter - and how we deal with it - mental power - a fragile exercise of equilibrium, which we do not always consider with this acute attention.

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 11 Sep 2019
Topic: What is this Life?

Clive Elwell wrote: Wim, can you describe what it is to have these sense of urgency which your condition brings about?

I do not see this physical situation as essentially different from the world situation, possibly only the physical difficulty.

the similarity with unnatural growth is also very striking for me.

we don't feel that physical difficulty, is that the key?