Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wim Opdam's Forum Activity | 2227 posts in 4 forums


Forum: General Discussion Fri, 24 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

If we read this carefully there is time involved here And we don't have to worry because we are poor, no tracé of insight. Only exchange of thought.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: I say K never meant any such thing if you understand him correctly, he himself was reading a variety of books which in one way or other is related to spirituality/philosophy.

How do you Know what he meant and are you sure YOU understand him correctly ?

Natarajan S wrote: he himself was reading a variety of books which in one way or other is related to spirituality/philosophy.

Did you look over his shoulder ? According to my information – but it could be wrong – he denied to have read such kind of books. On what ground is this statement based ?

Jean Gatti wrote: So you (thought) found a good 'reason' not to give up your money ... this is why the camel will never pass through the needle ...

Jean, it’s a bloated story referring to the formless “ the kingdom of God “ or whatever we call it. The formless through the formless no problem at all.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: Intelligence informs me that he did read, but how does it matter to you? Is he any less or more because of that, if yes, you need to check on whether you have made an authority of him.

It didn’t matter me, but Intelligence would check the validity of where your words were pointing to, or came from.

It seems that a validity check to the information canals is needed, are you sure it’s not thought in a disguise of Intelligence is informing you?

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: So can we investigate WHY does thought make problems of life ?

So why use thought to investigate thought, is this the way to investigate? I only see a lot of quotes flying around and no questioning the interpretations which are made?

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: No, that is precisely the operation of thought.

It's so easy to call it " THOUGHT ". It seems You close the door without any inquiry. Keeping "IT" open, means always being aware of the possibility of being wrong.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: Do you need thought to look ?

Back to the never-ending story. If using thought intelligently it's coursing no problem, but it's not a necessity to look.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti : What does it mean to use thought 'intelligently' ?

Jean: Try it out on this quotes. ;) :)

The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers. Carl Jung.

Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. Carl Jung, "On the Psychology of the Unconciousness", 1917

If one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a fool. Carl Jung (1875 - 1961)

It all depends on how we look at things, and not on how they are themselves. Carl Jung (1875 - 1961)

????

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 25 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: You missed a pertinent quote by Jung.

If you think along the lines of Nature then you think properly. (Jung)

Improper interpretation. Nothing missed, you have to be careful with those you love. No overdose ;)

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 26 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: it appears he has read and was influenced by Martin Buber's 'I and Thou'.

It could also be the other way around or both tapping from the same source withouth knowing each other. We are also living in a quantum world, where causality can't be proofed.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 26 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: The words and concepts used are so similar

If you put it Like that, I also see the concept of dialogue popping up after speaking with Böhm And this is via him coming from Patrick du mare. But as you said earlier what does it matter who said it, it's where it is pointing to is important.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 26 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: Jean Gatti wrote:

Are you 'irritated' by the question marks ? ?? Definitely not, now can you answer the original question in post 169?

Natarajan, look at it clean. Jean in his answering is full of questions marks, so it seems he is looking for answers we or anyone can't give. Not with a candle light or a beam of light.

He ones give me an answer that this forum is for blowing up our ego's, or something like that. So give him the toys he needs to go on with his self-abuse he will never get because it's an illusion.

What's gone happen when someone is caught in the act of self-abuse?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 26 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti : Why not ? Are my questions so difficult to answer ??

I will answer it in the way your answers are like on this forum:

Are you 'irritated' by every answer ?

??

Do you want to show: “ you don’t know anything” by firing questions like a computer?

??

Did you try to find out ‘intelligently’ what those quotes of your favorite psychiatrist Jung really pointed to?

??

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 27 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti : My question remains unchanged and unanswered: Why would self knowledge end violence ? I think this question is worth a serious investigation ...

Although my questions (#198) remains unchanged and unanswered this is a serious investigation worth, indeed !!

In the posts you seem to see self-knowledge as something connected with thought, but is that the case? If the self is seen for what it is you can name it as such but isn’t that is always after the fact? Does self-knowledge build something and so becoming thought? Is it not something you have to have or can have from moment to moment?

With this questions in mind found something which could put some light on the question, but the answer is within us, is not in the words and that’s why no one can give us an answer, not even Krishnamurti, you have to see ‘IT’

To Be Human | Fifth Talk in Madras:

Self-knowledge is not a conclusion, an end; it has no beginning and no end. You must begin where you are, reading every word, every phrase, every paragraph of the book of self-knowledge. To understand its contents there must be no condemnation, no justification, for all identification and denial put an end to the stream of self-knowledge. To be awake to the movement of the self, there must be a certain freedom, a spontaneity, for a thought that is disciplined, controlled, molded, can never pursue the swift current of the self. A disciplined mind is shaped in a mold, and so cannot follow the subtle promptings of the different layers of consciousness. But there are rare moments when the disciplined mind, the drugged mind, is spontaneous, and in these moments there is a comprehension of conditioned responses, when thought can go beyond its own limitations.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 27 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: But truly, WHO is willing to 'be nothing' ?

But Jean, it's going wrong in the willing, it's a happening but by giving it a name back in the circle, the straitjacket of psychological thought.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 27 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: Wim ... what is your method for such lightning fast improvement ?

No method, learning by the seconds And not only the language. :-) Don't flatter me, it's a drug for this fragment: ''IamI''.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 27 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: Illusion doesn't have any polar opposite, it can only be ended by seeing for what it is, in that case, is not the illusion 'I am not the I'?.

That's, as seen, the seeing is the negation of the attractive drug and holding back of the energy for building/keeping/nursing of the illusion in the same action/movement, which is also named as " choiceless awareness ".

But what's in the name, it's in the being/doing what's important?

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 27 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Natarajan S wrote: Is there a holding back (except theoretically) as the dichotomy is solved by action of whole human in real time?

it was a matter of speaking, I'm sure you see it !!! ;-)

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 28 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Jean Gatti wrote: When we see that thought is a strategy inevitably leading to suffering - a 'failure device' - then we are ready for a change ... until then business will go on as usual, unchanged ...

Therefore suffering is the main factor for change.

One would almost wish that you will suffer even more. ;-)

as you put it, as you seem to do, there is still a cause-effect in seeing it as it is leading to insight.

That issue of suffering, I wondered even as a child and it appears to be no necessity for an insight.

Questioning what's going on and passion for TRUTH and Honesty, seems to make an opening for the brain/pattern to receive something and action starts.

And That's sometimes very scary because all the bells are alarming you're doing the wrong thing and still you can't stop to do what you're doing.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 28 Apr 2015
Topic: On 'words being cheap' (to Patricia/all)

Mina Martini wrote: They are words that never pretend to be the thing they describe

Mina, what do you mean by " never pretent"?

Sometimes I scare my own vocabulary knowing that it is shocking precisely because they can / will be misunderstood. And still use them.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 28 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Aseem Kumar wrote: Tom, all explanations, discussions are undertaken with a desirable goal of ending the conflict/conditioning in us, right?

Isn't it that: if any explanations, discussions are undertaken with a desirable goal of ending the conflict/conditioning in us, the trap of thought is in motion?

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 28 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Wim Opdam wrote: And That's sometimes very scary because all the bells are alarming you're doing the wrong thing and still you can't stop to do what you're doing.

This afternoon thinking about these alarm bells I wondered whether one could/should interpret that as the death of the ego in that action?

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 28 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Ravi Seth wrote: Wim Opdam wrote:

This afternoon thinking about these alarm bells I wondered whether one could/should interpret that as the death of the ego in that action?

Pl do share something more..... not that I am not seeing what you are saying but I just want to be doubly sure.

Oké, let's try to put it in words.

In post #243 mentioned:

Wim Opdam wrote: Questioning what's going on and passion for TRUTH and Honesty, seems to make an opening for the brain/pattern to receive something and action starts.

And That's sometimes very scary because all the bells are alarming you're doing the wrong thing and still you can't stop to do what you're doing.

It happened to me a couple of times while action was going on all kind of signals popping up to stop whit what I'm doing, both from my environment as from my own perspective. Intellectually it would be very wise to comply therewith, social, ethical etc. etc. and yet I can not fail but to continue with all the risks that entails.

Does this make sense?

BTW. In each of these situations, it all worked out wonderfully well. Sometimes even after months. But this is, as I see it, back in the trail of thought.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Ravi Seth wrote: Wim Opdam wrote:

This afternoon thinking about these alarm bells I wondered whether one could/should interpret that as the death of the ego in that action?

Pl do share something more..... not that I am not seeing what you are saying but I just want to be doubly sure.

Will we ever be sure about the answer of this question?

I only can describe it by looking back and that is as we know a dangerous tricky road to go. Knowing that, there are differences in the very scary energy if you care what happen to you in the doing, in the result of the doing or in both of them.

In this case, you just don't care, you see the risks involved, the way you can escape, and still go on not by choice.

it's difficult to put words on it because you see that's not explaining anything, you know.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: Order is born out of seeing the disorder completely

Mina Martini wrote: So, the dying to disorder by being it fully is giving birth to true order.

Good morning too, Mina

I see what you mean and know this sentence are only words, but the birth of order?

Order was and is always there, isn't it.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Aseem Kumar wrote: Why does one explain or discuss anything with another?

Why does one explain or discuss anything with another?

Obviously, it is done to either clearly understand something (which is seeking) or to influence one another (which is a state of already knowing by both). Both the activities are goal/desire oriented in gross or subtle manner.

So, what are you doing here? Did K. didn't say something of value?

Okay, he said in 1929: "My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."

Is this a goal? Aren't we concerned too?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Aseem Kumar wrote: What is the meaning of "trap of thought"?

My dictionary explains it by being enclosed in a cave.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

Aseem Kumar wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Okay, he said in 1929: "My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free." Is this a goal?

If the focus was on "'men' and setting them absolutely free", then it would have been a goal.

Or

Was he saying something regarding his passion for doing something?

So, by one being concerned and studying K. one is striving a goal?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: The camel and the needle

mike c wrote: I am concerned with self-understanding-.

Where was de "I' and the "self" in my using words. Those are your interpretations.

But if the point is that you want to get your right, here you can have it.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: Order is born out of seeing the disorder completely

Jack Pine wrote: First, I don't dislike you Mina. But I do not accept your authority, your conclusions. Why do you seem to feel that you need to assume the role of "teacher"? As the one who knows and must impart this knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, to the rest of us?

Is this a fact, a conclusion or an interpretation jack?

Jack Pine wrote:>We should be questioning ourselves, our thinking and not forming conclusions for our self and others. Once a conclusion is formed then learning, questioning, seeing ends. Can truth be captured by one and given to another? K often pointed out that Truth is living; moving, changing so when it is captured in words it becomes static, the past which is dead. Which is no longer truth.

so let's start than?

Can you see this? It is seen as a fact or not isn't it?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 29 Apr 2015
Topic: Order is born out of seeing the disorder completely

Jack Pine wrote: Does that answer your question Wim? And Wim why be so quick to believe what others offer as knowledge or truth? Are you unable to find out for yourself?

I didn't believe jack, I am just a curious little boy. ;-)

Truth is something no one can offer and knowledge is sometimes handy but mostly in the way, less is more in this case. My Self is out of order!!! ;-)