Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Joe Loveys' Forum Activity | 280 posts in 1 forum


Forum: General Discussion Thu, 20 Mar 2014
Topic: New guy here

Hello, I just joined this site. I've been watching some of the man's videos on youtube lately, read some of his books long ago. I think maybe the videos are better. I like his one on one talks but the talks in front of crowds are good too. I'm not sure if there is anyone even similar to him, maybe there is or has been. On the surface I guess he seems mystical or is talking about things that aren't real life concerns. Then when you get into it a little more it's not hard to see that what he talks about is indeed meaningful, and I like how he deals in facts, even if we don't always see them as facts.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 20 Mar 2014
Topic: On understanding words

Interesting. How about the word "word"?

I recall something I wrote in uni, long ago, it was a paper about reading. Something like, "Words refer mainly to concepts, and not the external world." Thinking back, I would have liked to included the simple fact also that another language will use a different word for the same thing. It may be a cat to us speaking English, but not to a Korean speaker. So the word has nothing to do with the cat's existence, I guess, only a way to talk about it.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 20 Mar 2014
Topic: On understanding words

Indeed Max, he said that often. So simple, but the reminder often seemed to be needed. It seems that people argue over concepts though. We have no problem with everyday things. We wouldn't argue over what a chair is, that would be ridiculous. It's a physical object we all know well. When words refer to more abstract things though, then all the argument begins because often we don't know what we're talking about, and everybody can have their own ideas. If it's something totally abstract like "God" say, then, oh my, the arguments will never end.

Some wise people know enough to simply say "I don't know" or at least can respect that many different ideas can exist even if they all supposedly refer to the same thing. In fact they don't refer to the same thing, they only refer to what each believes.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 20 Mar 2014
Topic: New guy here

Jean Gatti wrote: Maybe you could tell us what attracts you particularly in K's talks or books ... or maybe the topics you disagree with or don't understand ? If any ?

Do you think that those teachings can be helpful to you in your daily life ? In what sense ?

Hi Jean. Well I just stumbled across his books I guess around 20 years ago. Between then and now I of course went many years without much considering a lot of what he talked about, but I suppose it was there somewhere in the head. It did fascinate me when I first read that stuff, and I couldn't really understand it. Not sure I can understand much now either, but it gives me a lot to think about at least.

I think it does help me. I'll give an example. You know how habitual we are. That's obvious. We all repeat the same things over and over, almost oblivious that we are doing so, as a way to feel comfortable. It's easy to keep doing the same things. It's even part of the identity I guess. One thing that happens though is we become dull this way. And the idea even of doing something outside the comfort zone brings us anxiety.

And being committed to being a particular thing, an American or a Japanese person, or a Hindu or a Christian, based on upbringing, and the investment of emotion, starts to seem really strange. Why people kill each other is another thing we wonder about. The great tragedy behind it.

Something recent that astonished me was to realize that the crisis the world is facing, always has and always will, is not outside us. We try to change outward things, and also separate ourselves from others, saying they are different though we were also brought up in the same society or another which is not really much different. That the real problem is thought, not yours or mine, but that the crisis of the world, the sickness, the killing, everything else, lies in consciousness itself. I find that pretty amazing to consider.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 21 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

I have felt this lately. I guess that's why I wanted to talk with others. I'm not sure how to describe this change. It's been going on for a few days now, and they seem to be different days than what I'm used to. I've been through similar mindsets in the past though. There's no question for me that there is change, and it is real. It's just a different outlook, it's kind of strange and unfamiliar. I think to others I still seem the same, and act the same and speak the same as usual, but inside there's a different feeling. Maybe it will pass. I hope not, but I'm not trying to hold onto it either, and it's pleasant I suppose, like looking at things in a clearer way maybe, less troubled. It's strange is all I can say, and I can assure you it's not due to drugs or anything.

I might call this ongoing feeling "emptiness" but that doesn't really explain. It's just that mostly the thoughts are not there much. It's quite unusual.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 22 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

What is all this about me being someone else? That's just weird.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 22 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

Today, mostly, I'd say it's back to the same old worries. The "change" may just be something that comes and goes. Or it may just be nonsense, and a wish. Hard to say. Sometimes it feels real.

Curious, though, what is up with this saying one poster is another? That sounds paranoid or something, and really who cares? What can ya do if someone is into having more than one poster name? I hope no one is, it would be confusing and silly. But it's been known to happen on online discussion forums. They call that a "sock" right. I have never done that.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 22 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

randall merryman wrote:

Joe Loveys wrote: But it's been known to happen on online discussion forums. They call that a "sock" right. I have never done that.

If this is Paul, it's by far, his worst performance.

Is there something wrong with you? Seriously. If you don't believe I am Joe, that's your problem. Look into that. Unless whoever Paul is has been known to pull shenanigans. Not to insult you, but damn, I'm Joe, no one else, and no else is me, this is too weird to even discuss.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 28 Mar 2014
Topic: Has the computer already begun to affect the brain?

In some Krishnamurti videos he talks about the computer becoming more and more important, and it has become that since he died, but some of what he said sounded like nonsense to me. Of course he was very serious about it all but it almost seemed like a fear he had of the computer taking on a role way beyond anything we've seen yet.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 28 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

Now the original message looks like nonsense. Maybe it was all a dream or a wish. It's still pleasant I guess when there are fewer worries than usual and what seems to be somewhat clearer perception. Not the deep awareness and all that stuff, that never happens to me.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 28 Mar 2014
Topic: Nationalism

I don't think I'm very nationalistic but I'm sure there's some of that in me. It's easy to say how dumb it is, but that doesn't really do anything. I'm Canadian. I lived in Asia for about 15 years, South Korea and China and other spots. It's really easy to see nationalism over there as a sort of outsider to the local culture. Then ya wonder is it so different where you're from? Probably not much.

Then ya might also think how strange it all is, we are all so sure of what we are, or want to be, and we'll argue over it and fight over it. So heavily invested (conditioned I guess) into being particular things like Koreans or Americans or Korean-Americans and Christians or whatever. It really is something this need to be something specific, exclusive, belonging to groups, and it sometimes seems like a fantasy, but when ya meet other foreigners over in these Asian countries you know you have more in common besides a good grasp of English, because you have similar backgrounds, and that becomes important.

I guess that's why when in a big city that's pretty international you can see the Chinatown, the Greek neighborhood, and all the others, it's just comfortable being around your own kind I suppose. Personally I don't mind living overseas but cultural differences do come into play.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 29 Mar 2014
Topic: Nationalism

Interesting stuff, that 'rationalism' as you put it.

Nationalism is worth discussing too. It's a strange thing. You don't need to visit numerous countries to know that every single one of them is full of nationalistic people. People want to belong to something they imagine greater than themselves. There is some comfort in this I suppose. An odd thing about nationalism is that it is supported, and considered normal and healthy. I guess many people think that being patriotic is a good thing. It surprises me, as an example, to see how American military people wear their uniforms to go on a game show, and how everybody seems to respect that, as though they are heroes somehow, not just regular people who needed a job, and maybe the military was their best option.

When I lived in South Korea, when there was an international sports contest, oh my, the nationalism was so fervent, it was kind of scary. I was teaching English to kids and older people. If Korea lost a game in soccer or whatever the night before, the mood of the students was affected a lot. It was personal to them and their national pride. You can see hatred in what people post in online forums too. Japan is a big target for resentment. So certain are the posters that they are really different, that their nationality is like a sports team, and the other "teams" are like rivals. Very weird.

Supposedly all this belonging to a group/tribe, which seems to me to be a trick the mind plays, offers some psychological security, as of course Krishnamurti pointed out. But perhaps it really does not offer that, because belonging to one group implies being opposed to others, and we fight over all this imaginary crap.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 29 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

randall merryman wrote: Psycosis maybe? Don't feel bad though, most posters at Kinfonet seem quite disconnected from reality.

Nah, I'm not clever enough to be psychotic. I agree a lot of posts look like they were written by insane people thinking they've somehow got a handle on "truth". It's easy to kid yourself I suppose. When you say "most posters" of course you are not one of them, right? You are one of the few who has a nice grip on reality, right? No condescending posts from you, no sir. It's funny how most people agree that most people are not as awesome as they are somehow, and how the ordinary person, deep down believes he is somehow better than most. Like I said, it's easy to kid yourself, and we all do it from time to time.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 29 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

Pandavi X wrote:

Joe Loveys wrote: Nah, I'm not clever enough to be psychotic.

A good observation, Joe. Not that you are not clever but that the psychotic mind takes it to the next level.

Let's be clear what we mean by psychotic. An inability to cope with the normal everyday world and life's demands sounds suitable to me. I don't have that. I manage OK. Neurotic, sure, but that is common, even normal I would say. Most people are neurotic, of that I have no doubt. Not many are psychotic.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 30 Mar 2014
Topic: Nationalism

I thought nationalism was a very relevant topic for this website. It is a discussion based on the thoughts of J. Krishnamurti, isn't it? Also, on our own opinions. Nationalism is very significant, both to the reason this site exists, and to all of us who are here. It is the reason behind wars, the root of much psychology and the great sadness and tragedy that the world shares in its misguided quest for safety.

Or not? Inform me if I'm wrong.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 30 Mar 2014
Topic: Nationalism

Pandavi X wrote: Brasilians do not feel themselves to be nationalistic as such and the country is very welcoming of foreigners of every type. Within two years they are all Brasilian. People don't make a difference, or no more difference than they do of the regions of the country (someone from Rio is a "carioca.")

But to the Brasilian, until of late, and then only among the middle classes, Brasil IS the world . . . and everyone is welcome to join.

Looking back over the thread I noticed this part. This is the same anywhere you go in this world. I don't need to go anywhere to know it is so though my past travels help prove it, to myself at least. Talk to any well-traveled person, I mean anyone at all who has been to even, say, five different countries for a few weeks or more. It's all the same everywhere. In every single country. China is the center of the world in China. Of course, it's right there in their name "Zhong Guo" Middle Kingdom or whatever. So is Korea. Definitely. Or is it Thailand or Vietnam? Wait a minute, no, the UK is clearly the center. I thought it was Canada. Nah, obviously it's the USA. Nah, mate, it's Australia, didn't you know that? No, sir, it's Turkey, or is it Ghana?... etc.

Ah, the beauty of travel and meeting people. We're all so stupid it's funny.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 30 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

Pandavi X wrote: The psychotic prefers his own reality

I'm not sure "prefers" is the right word here, though I understand it is hard to state otherwise. "Lives in" of course, not that that says much or gets at anything when the poor person is suffering.

Mental illness that goes into psychotic episodes is very tricky territory. When a person is going through that, there really is no choice to see things in a certain way, is there? The beliefs and feelings of a truly ill person, caught in the throes of madness, will not allow, or make much room, for other viewpoints which are more suitable to deal with functional everyday living, so strong is the state in which the sufferer lives.

Very tricky stuff.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 30 Mar 2014
Topic: Have you felt a change in yourself?

Pandavi X wrote: K saw and understood that mental illness is a reality for some people

Indeed. It's kind of disturbing to hear or read online people say that mental illness is not a real thing. It's very strange and confusing to live with or encounter, guaranteed, but it sure as hell exists, and the suffering is as real as a punch in the face.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 08 Apr 2014
Topic: What is the meaning of 'individual' ?

Maybe it works better as an adjective.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 08 Apr 2014
Topic: On becoming and being

I guess it is strange to notice that we always want to become something better. Is it possible? Maybe by getting healthier or richer or learning a new skill. I don't know if it's possible to become wiser or more mature.

Forum: General Discussion Mon, 14 Apr 2014
Topic: Talking about things we don't really understand

Most of us here, I guess, enjoy the words we use and the play with thoughts. I doubt many of us have any idea what we are talking about most of time. Myself included, not that I've even said much. I posted about "a change" once. Later it proved to be temporary. Like a momentary feeling of quietness or whatever.

But it is just a forum for discussion. We rely on words. Are some of us just trying too hard? I dunno. Just felt like saying hello again.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Apr 2014
Topic: Talking about things we don't really understand

There is the grand idea of putting oneself aside, whatever that means. Also, look at how crazy that sounds, to even type those words "putting oneself aside" -- does it make any sense? It sounds like a noble ideal, if there's such a thing, but come on, most of us are never there. Sometimes close maybe. As if we could really understand ourselves, and have awareness and all that stuff, the whole content of consciousness, at a glance, with no time interference?

Nope. If you think so, you are kidding yourself. Or are you one of the very few? Sounds doubtful to me.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Apr 2014
Topic: The ideal and the actual

One of the great things about K. is how much it makes ya think, I guess. Let's not any of us pretend to know what the actual is. But after some thinking, sometimes, it's not hard to see sometimes how the ideal interferes and gets in the way of what is.

There is almost always striving for a goal. There are many pressures we make on ourselves, and others make on us too, and we make on others. This seems to be constant. One thing we might notice is that we are not interested in what a person is, a family member, or whoever, but more in what we wish they were. Or are we interested in what we are, or more so in what we should be? This is a good question.

I'm sure this topic has been raised before.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 18 Apr 2014
Topic: The ideal and the actual

Now jean, don't tell me you've dropped all ideals, all ideas of becoming somebody. That you stay with the actual, whatever that is, and understand it.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 18 Apr 2014
Topic: Talking about things we don't really understand

We always have to begin somewhere. Knowledge is limited. We can't argue that. What we know can always be added to. Experience is limited too. Obviously. We only have so much time and we experience very little really.

Saying these things and understanding them are not the same but they are kind of obvious.

I was watching yet another Krishnamurti video on youtube recently. I don't know why I got back into him recently or a few months ago, I just did. Some of his talks with Dr. Bohm were interesting.

I emailed my brother a while ago with weird drunken questions about urges or something. He likes physics and is a software developer. He had no time for it, I guess it sounded weird. He said something like "Give me a break, I'm a f-king scientist." I wonder if he thinks that matters. That he said he doesn't care for human thought too. Then there was Bohm, a high ranking scientist, into all this as well.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 18 Apr 2014
Topic: Jokes

Copied and pasted:

There was a preacher who fell in the ocean and he couldn't swim. When a boat came by, the captain yelled, "Do you need help, sir?" The preacher calmly said "No, God will save me." A little later, another boat came by and a fisherman asked, "Hey, do you need help?" The preacher replied again, "No God will save me." Eventually the preacher drowned & went to heaven. The preacher asked God, "Why didn't you save me?" God replied, "Fool, I sent you two boats!"

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 18 Apr 2014
Topic: Do we own our consciousness?

I would never bother trying to talk about such a thing with people I know. I already imagine some people might think I'm nuts. I don't need to encourage that. I also don't know anyone who be interested, and who probably wouldn't immediately call it all philosophical nonsense, and therefore dismiss it quickly, and go about their own totally important business (haha), but I guess that is what this site is for.

I don't even know how to understand the question, "Do I own my own consciousness?" It looks like a question a crazy person might ask. It seems obvious that it's mine, all the memories and whatever else. We sure are taught to think we own that. But did I make it what it is? Then we can also get into, why are you talking about "I" as if it is something different?

I'm inclined to go with the notion that we have not put our own consciousness together. In some ways this seems obvious. Let's say Christianity did not exist, ever. No one would be bothering with this Good Friday and Easter stuff. But it does exist. None of us created it, yet it is part of our consciousness. That's all pretty obvious and simple I guess.

I guess being the product of countless influences and centuries of programming is a large part of consciousness, if such a thing can be broken up like that. I'm not sure if it's mine or not, but this seems to also run into an old argument about free will. If it's not really yours, or you don't own it, then how are you able to choose?

Confusing stuff. Not in the best state of mind now to go into much.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 22 Apr 2014
Topic: Is one afraid of transformation?

Not so much, just don't know how to do it. The complicated thing to me it seems, is that it is not necessarily permanent. You may have moments, even hours, of not just contentment, but a real inward awareness and peace, but it goes away again. So, somebody says, why don't you change? This was a very unusual man. For the rest of us we are caught up in too much.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 22 Apr 2014
Topic: Do we own our consciousness?

It's easier to state a thing than to live that way too.

The issue of psychological security is fundamental, I'm sure. That's what we really want. We don't even know if it exists, apparently. But plenty of money, and a nice relationship with people, or whatever gives us the feeling we have it.

I may have been spending too much time on all this, because I think quite a bit differently than I used too. I notice how self-absorbed I am, and how everyone else is too. And totally. Almost everybody you know is completely self-absorbed nearly all the time. This kind of freaks me out. But am I different? I worry about myself a lot too. I don't have the nice comfort of lots of money these days.

If you listen to people as well as you can anyhow, you see how focused they are on themselves, for life is hard. I think most people are not used to even being really listened to, not judged or even much responded to, just following what they say. They open up at times and you say, it doesn't matter.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 22 Apr 2014
Topic: Listening to people

This may be an old subject.

It's not easy to listen. I think people are not even used to being listened to.

Sometimes though, when you're old brain is not too restless, you can shut up and pay attention to another person, could be your wife or some guy at the bar.

That person will love you for it, if you can just keep your mouth shut and actually follow.

Everybody is concerned with themselves. Totally self-absorbed. It's almost frightening. I figure listening is rare. You will react inside of course, as we do. But to give what the other person says more importance than your own opinion, that is not common, is it?