Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Discussion Forums

Paul Dimmock 's Forum Activity | 41 posts in 1 forum


Forum: General Discussion Tue, 07 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

First of all, before we even approach the question of understanding K, do we understand ourselves? What are our own motives for listening to him, reading him, watching him? I feel this is very important because unless we understand something about our own nature, our understanding of other people is always going to be flawed, partial, distorted. Also, what does it mean to understand something or someone? What is the connection or the spark that demonstrates the utter truthfulness of our understanding?

I hope we can look at this together. I haven't been here for many years, but have been active on the KFA Ning site instead. I am also a member of The Friends of Brockwood Park forum.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 08 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: What do we mean by understanding my self? Is myself different than the self? If we understand the self, how it comes about and how it creates confusion in discussions and in relationships, then we can see that my self and your self and someone else's self are essentially the same; they are born out of the lack of intelligence and wisdom.

Therefore, what is myself? How are we going to find out? I think this is a deceptively simple question. There are all sorts of quick, clever answers to it. But who is providing these answers? I can go to K and he will tell me something about it; he won't be so quick and clever. But before I go to K or to anyone else, before I begin to search outside of myself, what is the state of myself inside? What is the state of my mind that says, 'Who am I?'

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 08 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: ...we all probably have varying degrees of understanding ourselves and self-awareness but that understanding is very probably partial. We are highly complex beings and we are almost certainly confused about many things. Are we capable of looking at this confusion and learning anything at all? That would be my question.

Agreed, sir. That's the most logical place to begin. First of all, am I free to look? Do I have a motive for looking that will slant everything in one particular direction? I think this question frequently gets overlooked; and it is not until well into a dialogue that we discover we are both of us travelling down two different tracks. I raise this now because we have come here deliberately to a forum. We are not sitting at home in isolation attempting to sort our problems from self-reflection or from reading a book. So it's two questions, really. First, am I free to look? Second, are we together in our looking? They are perhaps the same question; though they may appear not to be. But my problems are your problems; I am starting from this very simple point.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: When one asks "Do I understand myself?" one has to ask the motive behind the question. Right? When I ask that question do I want to understand myself because myself causes me pain and suffering? What is the motive behind my question? If it is another escape from the self then the self gets satisfied with a description and moves on with the routine, the boredom and so on. I think it is important to understand the motive behind the question first and then going to the question and answering it accordingly. Right? Isn't that what Krishnamurti did in all of those discussions? He didn't answer a question without looking at the source of that question. No?

What is the self apart from its own descriptions? Is there an entity separate from the words it uses to protect itself? So, very often, our motive is to change descriptions, to find better words, ideas and images. Every human being wants to be secure. That's clearly my motive. But is there any form of security in the self?

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: Krishnamurti talked a lot about conditioning. I understand that he argued that we are all so heavily conditioned by our previous experience that it is very difficult for us to look with any clarity at all. We see the world through a filter of conditioning. This seems to make a lot of sense. ... I'm not sure about the motive to look.

It is the same thing, surely. I come here with a motive. There is the outer motive which I may or may not share with you; and there is also the inner motive, which I may or may not share with myself. So in coming here, I am going to find out about both the inner and the outer motives. I am going to find out when I agree with someone and when I disagree, for example. Both those reactions - agree and disagree, accept and reject - may be my conditioning at work. So I have to find out whether agreement and disagreement really have any part to play in a dialogue together. They may both be merely ways that I confirm and consolidate my conditioning, my beliefs, my opinions, my hopes and fears and all the rest of it.

That's why the question of whether we are together in our looking is really the most important part of all this. As human beings, we are conditioned to suppose that we are together when in agreement with others, when we share the same beliefs, when we hold the same principles, or when we are in the same club. Our motives direct our relationships - that's perhaps it in a nutshell. But we are approaching it differently here. By exposing our own motives, slowly and carefully, our relationship then begins to take on a totally different flavour or feeling. It is then not about our understanding of K but only about the observation of ourselves in relationship.

Why do I come here? I can tell you anything, but whatever I say is coming directly from the past. I can say, 'I want to learn', which is what most people say. That is my conditioning speaking. Therefore it only means I want to learn along conditioned lines. The real truth may be that I am terrified of learning about myself, about the inner emptiness at the core of me. So we have begun to expose it.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: I must say that I have a bit of a problem with expressions like "that is what most people say."

That's your conditioning out in the open, isn't it? It stops you reading the rest of what I said, which is that the verbal or spoken motive is deceptive. Most people say, 'I want to learn,' in some form or another. It is just a quick way of referring to it. After all, there are very few of us who say, 'I don't want to learn.' Most people, including you and me, want to learn about what K is talking about. That's all it means. That's our agreed or shared motive. But I am saying that the hidden motives are far more difficult to get at.

Now, wait. When I said, 'That's your conditioning out in the open,' did you react also to that? That's the whole point. This is not a game; we are going to get hurt. And why are we hurt? This is the first thing we have to find out, not chase after abstract concepts. We are exposing the whole nature of the self. It is not a safe intellectual exercise. But we can't do it - we really can't go any further into it - if we are not together. Only then can we brush aside such minor irritations and uncover the whole saga of sorrow.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Dan McDermott: P D posts that there may be terror in the realization of the fact that we are nothing...

I didn't quite say that. There is no terror in the realisation of a fact. It is only the idea we are terrified of. The truth may be that I am terrified of being nothing - but it is always the idea of being nothing that frightens me. Actually being nothing, there is no terror.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Dan McDermott: Yes, the "idea", the imagination of the 'unknown' is what can frighten.

There is no such thing as an idea of the unknown. It is only our ideas about the known that cause our terror. I am not afraid of being nothing. I am afraid of what I am. Do you see what I am saying? I am afraid that inwardly I am a terrible mess and I don't want anyone to find this out. That's why, outwardly, I cover it up as best I can.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 09 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: One self is the rest of humanity. My self and another's self are the same. There is only one self. Is that not what K said? Humanity is one. So by understanding my self the world around me changes. I think to understand myself or the self I have to understand greed or attachment. Because there is no self without these qualities. No?

Let's find out. First of all, am I greedy? Yes, I am. Am I selfish? Yes, I am. Am I violent? Yes, I am. Is it necessary to understand why I am all these things, wipe them off the list one by one? What makes me seek to understand anything about myself? Isn't it also the movement of greed, vanity, selfishness, to seek to move to a better place, a stronger position? In other words, do first I see the fact that I am greedy? That is then a total understanding. There are not then two elements seeking a resolution: a 'me' who is greedy and a 'me' who wants not to be greedy.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 10 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: To understand myself I have to understand greed. That is an irrevocable fact. There is no me without greed. If that is possible then I tell myself: am I different than the greed that I am trying to understand? I see that the observer of the greed is greed. I realize that I cannot do a thing about what I call greed because it is me. The very realization that the observer is the observed ends duality and therefore there is the energy that is necessary to transform the greed or the self. This has to be seen or experienced. It cannot be imagined which is merely verbal understanding.

I am greed. Therefore I can't do a thing about it. It is not an attribute of myself that can be changed like putting on a new hat. So when I say, 'I am greedy,' that's a false statement which brings in the observer. I am greed. Is there now anything to understand? It is only when I resist a fact that the desire to understand anything comes into play.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 10 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: But isn't everything anybody writes here a result of their conditioning? Do we ever write anything here that isn't a result of conditioning?

That's our challenge. If everything we say and do is conditioned by the past, it means we are no better than machines. Therefore the machines of our own generation, the computers, are doing a better job of living than human beings because a computer doesn't waste time in self-reflection. Computers have been programmed and they get on with it. But we seem to be caught in a twilight world of conditioned autonomy.

What is conditioning? How seriously have we put this question to ourselves? How seriously are we putting it now? Because who is going to answer this question? There is no answer to it from anywhere in the past, from anyone, from any quarter. Those are all answers from within the machine. Therefore, what is conditioning?

This is an impossible question to ask if we are expecting to find a quick, convenient answer. There is no answer to it from the past, which is the quickest and most convenient place to search. That's where the conditioned mind always looks because the past is our greatest protection. But there is no answer in the past. Would you agree? Are we still together in this?

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 10 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: The problem is that we don't want to do what Krishnamurti suggested to us because of our greed for comfort and money.

But is K suggesting anything to do? I don't think he is. He is merely pointing out the problem. It is how we look at this that matters because to follow someone's suggestion is itself a form of greed: I will do this to get that. First, do I see that I am greed? It is not just greed for comfort, money, but all the branches of greed.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 10 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

idiot: Am I gorgeous? Yes, I am. Am I brilliant? Yes, I am. Am I hilarious? Yes, I am. Okay, great. Now can I stay with this without trying to change? Hmm, it's tough to be wonderful me but someone has to do it. Amazing how arduous this awareness thing is.

So it is all about images: greedy, selfish, gorgeous, brilliant. They are all images. Do these images bring anything except more images?

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 11 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: How many times K said, 'Do it and you will find out.' How many times he said, 'Don't just listen to words.' K's teachings are all about action and doing. Otherwise they would be worthless like most of our philosophers are worthless.

But what is action? At the deepest level, what is it? Are you waiting to be inspired into action? Stick with it and find out. But you have already gone off to start a new topic on laziness! I am not be rude; I am pointing it out. If you react, resist, get angry with me, that is action in the form of reaction. So forget K altogether. The whole truth of it lies at your door, in your own hands.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 11 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: That is it. We subtly avoid Krishnamurti because he was a revolutionary.

We can't avoid K. You have been reading him for years; I have been reading him for years. I said forget K. Then you are totally alone. Then you can talk to me, who is not K, from there, not from behind a screen. Then you can't use K as your weapon against the world and against me. You have to meet the world and meet me as you are. And the world is you. If you want it revolutionary, you've got it. You have had a basinful of the theory and now someone is saying, 'Put it into practice. Be really revolutionary. Don't follow K or anyone.' Then you haven't got the protection of any books, any creeds, any slogans - nothing.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 11 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: Do you think that anybody can possibly use Krishnamurti or truth as a weapon? ... I like to know when you first read Krishnamurti.

I have been reading K since I was 22 years old. I am now 62 years old. Forty years in total. There is not a single false note throughout the whole of the teachings; I have read the lot. So I know K very well. But I want to meet you, not K. You say you don't use K as a weapon and yet you want to know how long I have been reading him. Therefore you are contradicting yourself. If I had said I have been reading him for 2 weeks you would have your excuse to dismiss me. People will use whatever they can to protect themselves when they are in a corner. But I am putting you in a corner. That's what a dialogue is all about. We are here to face the truth about ourselves, not what K tells us about ourselves. K is just one mirror to look in. This is now the mirror of relationship to look in. Or you can turn away and go back to bed.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 11 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B:Is that so? Do you think that you can use a virtual discussion forum to find the truth about yourself? We are here exclusively because of Krishnamurti. To suggest that we should ignore his teachings and talk about ourselves is an obvious contradiction.

Or we do both. We learn about both at the same time. That is, we learn about our relationship to K and our relationship to each other simultaneously. K wouldn't separate the two, so why should we? You can argue the point, if you wish, or we can jump into it. K says life is relationship; I say it too. It is up to you whether or not you join us.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 11 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B wrote: If one wants to learn about him or herself these discussions don't help. Because there are ideas interfering with each other. Arguments dull the mind. Arguments are based on ideas not facts.

You are the only one who is presenting arguments and ideas. I am not; K is not. So, it is up to you. I am offering an invitation. I may be a serial killer, but this is all online so you are perfectly safe.

Don't answer straightaway. Sleep on it. The offer will still stand tomorrow morning. But it is always a big risk we take when we open up all these boxes. We are complicated creatures; it won't be sorted in a few hours.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 12 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B wrote: So what are we arguing about? Everything I said is true. I don't have time for illusions and ideas. Arguing for the sake of argument is a wastage of energy, no?

You put the question about how many people understand K. One person is enough, if that person is you. Is that person you? Have you understood everything that K is saying right to the end of the line? I am not saying you have or you have not. I am asking you, inviting you to question it. What is K telling us to do? This is basically what we are unclear about. You yourself have doubts about this because you have started the new topic on laziness. So can we look at it together without throwing in a single idea or opinion, just look at it and find out what it all means?

Sir, he is offering us something immense, revolutionary, to use your word. How are we to receive it? We have mediocre brains, lazy brains; and we want everything quickly and permanently fixed. We want to be the one who can say, 'I have got it; I am safe now.' That's actually the way we approach all this. This is not an idea or an argument; this is the state of our own cheap minds. So, surely, the first thing he is telling us to do is to receive what he is saying in a revolutionary way. What does that mean?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 12 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

idiot: Simply untrue. True insight is the flowering of love. It is not hoarding the gem away for yourself. To really be aware is to embody love. That is its own communication. You might even start jabbering away for decades, setting people unconditionally free.

I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. It is not about hoarding away the treasure. But it all starts with you. It is all about the quality of what you have found, not the quantity shared or gathered. Love is the heart of it. What is K telling us to do? From insight, from love, what do you say?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 12 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Daniel Paul: I thought that today's quote may have some value regarding this question here: Auckland, New Zealand | 3rd Vasanta School Gardens Talk 2nd April, 1934: "You know, you have been here at my talks, fortunately or unfortunately, for the last four or five days, and merely listening to my talks is not going to do anything, is not going to give you wisdom..."

We could quote a thousand of these talks, but I think what is important is to find out together the central issue, the one thing that lies at the heart of all the teachings. If we are together in that one thing, it may open up to the rest. But if we are not first together, the danger is we shall each come to this with our own interpretations. What do we think K is telling us to do? The question is not about what K says, but what we think he says. Do you follow what I mean?

After all, when K says that merely listening to his talks is not going to do anything, it doesn't really do justice to what he himself said about the essential importance of listening. There are many occasions where he stresses it, for example:

K: What is important is my act of listening. And that act of listening has brought about a miracle of complete freedom from all your statements - whether true, false, real - my mind is completely attentive. Attention means no border. The moment I have a border I begin to fight you - agree, disagree. The moment attention has a frontier then concepts arise. But if I listen to you completely without a single interference of thought or ideation or mentation, just listen to that, the miracle has taken place. Which is my total attention absolves me, my mind, from all the statement. Therefore my mind is extraordinarily free to act. (K in dialogue with Allan Anderson, 22nd February 1974)

In other words, merely listening to the talks may be the whole secret.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 12 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: We've commented on this forum before about the quality of freshness and newness which Krishnamurti managed to bring to discussions. As one fellow forum member put it, it's as if he found a way to discover things for the first time over and over again. Krishnamurti sometimes started discussions by asking people to, if possible, put all previous knowledge aside. So if the question is, can we explore what conditioning is as equals and put aside past knowledge, my reply would be I would be very happy to try this. Perhaps a new thread would be the best place to do this.

We are currently exploring this question of what we think K is telling us to do. I think it is really the same question as yours, because either our conditioning will dictate what we say or we will have to find a different kind of answer. So, if I may suggest, can we finish with this other question first before starting a new thread? I think your question is highly pertinent; I am not dismissing it. But I also think we have the perfect opportunity to watch our own conditioning in action as we approach this previous question. However, if you wish to start a new thread, I am happy to join you there too.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 14 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Rich Nolet: In all due respect, what makes you think that K ever asked anyone to do anything?

Therefore who or what is K? He himself was always wary of the word 'teachings' to describe his work. Also, he discouraged all interpretation of his words. So what is our relationship to K? Do we all have our own personal relationship with him, taking from him the pieces that resonate most strongly? Or is K relevant at all to what we are doing here? So why are we here? It always comes back to this question. Deeply, why are we here? I put this question to you; I say, 'Why are you here?' What's your response to it?

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 14 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: What I get is that each one of us psychologically are going through the same thing. The stream of selfishness. Stepping out of the stream of selfishness with its frustrations and sorrow is wisdom and intelligence. Self-understanding is the only way out. No?

We can only say what is the only way out if we have stepped out of the stream. Otherwise, we are making more currents in the stream; because we generally tend to argue over what we all mean by self-understanding. Who is it that wants to step out of the stream of selfishness? First of all, am I selfish? Are you selfish?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 15 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: Is that so? Have you not ever stepped out of the stream of selfishness? In other words have you ever loved?

You are avoiding my question. Am I selfish? Are you selfish? It is not about what may have happened to us in the past, but about what we are now. I have you told you about love. I said love is at the heart of it.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 15 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Sean Hen: Probably most people who come here have been deeply moved by what Krishnamurti had to say. Krishnamurti's "teachings" are not easy to understand. Perhaps we come here to share what we understand about the teachings and in the possibility that we might understand more. If this is the case, K and what he said are both highly relevant. Are there deeper motives as to why we come here which involve the ego? Do we want to show off our understanding of K to others and be respected and regarded as wise? Do we want to achieve or gain something like enlightenment that will make our lives better? What is our state of mind when we come here? Are we open and ready to listen? How do we feel about the other people who come here?

You are perfectly correct. All of this comes into it. I think you have touched on the key issue when you say that we understand something of the teachings and come here in the possibility that we might understand some more. So it is a mind that wants more. First of all, it is a greedy mind. Would you accept this? It is greedy for more power, more security, more respect and all the rest of it, in the form of more understanding. It is asking a lot to accept all this.

You see, I asked a different question, sir. I asked, ‘Why are you here?’ What’s your response to this question? Do you take it personally and get affronted? Or can we look at it together and unravel its meaning?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 15 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: Yes, let's investigate instead of condemning or justifying. Can we?

So are you selfish? Let's break this apart.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 15 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: Your question does not make sense or is a wrong question all together.

I am selfish. Are you? It is a very simple question. Let’s look at what it means to be selfish without condemning and justifying. This is your suggestion.

I am a selfish human being. If you say, 'I am not,' then it's finished; and we can't discuss it. I am selfish. I start here. I don't want to make a problem out of it.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 16 Aug 2018
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: Continue, what is selfishness? ... Thinking has to start with facts or it is not valid.

No, I am not talking about selfishness. That is an abstraction away from the fact that I am selfish. I am greedy; I am self-centred. Aren't you? So I am starting from a fact. I may resist it; I may want to deny it; but it is a simple enough fact to start from. It is a fact about myself; so I am starting very close.

Forum: General Discussion 2 days ago
Topic: How many people understand Krishnamurti?

Goodman B: It is understood that we are self-centred. We don't need to keep repeating that. What is your solution? How do you break through selfishness? And what is self-centredness to you? To me it is a person who is always concerned with someone's self. He doesn't care what he says. We can see or experience that in this and other blogs.

I am self-centred. I say that. Something then happens. But you are still not happy to say it except in general terms. But the whole story of selfishness is you.