Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Clive Elwell's Forum Activity | 3664 posts in 3 forums


Forum: General Discussion Thu, 19 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

A dialogue on another website

Hi Everyone

I have written an article called “ What is the real problem?”. Its contents can be summed up by K's words:

“It seems to me that the real problem is the mind itself, and not the problems which the mind has created and tries to solve ”.

The article is published on the website: http://guymcpherson.com/ The site is generally concerned with the issue of how to live with the near certain knowledge of the approaching end of civilisation, and perhaps most of life on Earth. ''NTE'', near term extinction, is a phrase commonly used.

I am hoping that the article might generate some genuine dialogue among the comments which usually follow the articles. I find it strange, among all the things one reads and hears on the internet/ in the media, how very rarely it is seen or acknowledged that the real crisis is in consciousness itself. This is to invite people on this forum to participate in such a dialogue, if they care to.

The article can be found at: http://guymcpherson.com/2015/03/what-is-the-real-problem/ One has to scroll down below some other stuff to find the comments.

Regards

Clive Elwell

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

. . . an ideological pitch with which I do not concur, Mr Doom Monger. Those who sell such a line commonly advocate the "die with dignity" strategy of giving up.

Well, I was simply describing the site, I did not say whether I concurred or did not concur with the sentiments expressed there. There is certainly a lot of scientific research behind the site. But I would ask, does putting labels on people further understanding and inquiry in any way?

Regards

Clive

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Talks by Krishnamurti in India 1956-1957 (Verbatim Report) New Delhi, Madras, Bombay

Sixth Talk in New Delhi, 1956

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Hi Jean

Yes, we can do nothing, in the sense of a deliberate act, making an effort in a particular direction. All we could pursue would be a projection of the mind.

Do I really see this, or is it just an idea?

Watching this

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

it is seen that 'one cannot do anything' because any such do-er would not be different from what it attempts to do.

Seeing this, thought starts to break up

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 20 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Clive: But I would ask, does putting labels on people further understanding and inquiry in any way?

Paul: Occasionally . . . if it fits

So you think that occasionally putting labels on people furthers understanding and inquiry? In what way does it?

'putting labels' means categorising, basically seeing people as an image. That image having been created by oneself. So please explain why you think doing this helps understanding, and helps the process of inquiry.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 21 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Paul wrote:

If someone is doom-mongering, naming that practice brings it into sharp relief.

This does not answer my question at all

At the risk of being labelled as 'boring' I will repeat the question:

So you think that occasionally putting labels on people furthers understanding and inquiry? In what way does it?

A label, an image, is a conclusion, is it not? And conclusions are the death-knell of inquiry. If one has concluded something, one can inquire no further.

It was my understanding that these Kinfonet forums are all about inquiring together. Am I wrong about that?

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 21 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Jean asked:

And in what does this help the world ? ??

Jean

I do not know that I did say it did help the world. I simply answered your question, about what happened when one observed that doer was not separate from what he was doing, and what we pursue are only projections of the mind.

Somehow the phrase ''help the world'' suggests that one is separate from the world

Clive

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 21 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Clive: "The World is on the brink, if not actually starting to fall into the abyss. "

Jean: Therefore implicitly you suggest that there must be a 'solution' to bring the world to another path ?

I do not know if there is a solution or not. I know that it behoves us to inquire diligently if there is.

Jean;

you suggest that there is some 'full responsibility' to take in order to make a better world, no ?

Same answer as above really.

I see most definitely that overwhelmingly we are do not feel responsible for the world crisis. Would you disagree?

If you are missing a point, Jean, it is perhaps that I am inquiring. I am not coming from a place of certainty, of knowing.

What I am asking now is : How can a change in human consciousness change the state of the world ?

But it must, the state of the world is a direct result of human consciousness. There is no difference between the inner and the outer. Society MUST be a reflection of we are, surely?

If we are the world, then any change in us IS a change in the world

regards Clive

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 21 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Jean wrote:

Isn't it a fact that we are the world ? What else are we ?

Well, I think we are :-). Do not know what else we could be. But it seems hypercritical to make a definite statement unless it is absolutely clear. It seems that clarity is not absolute here. I have been intensely inquiring into this issue for some time, and I see that still the mind can behave as if it was separate from the world.

What is your understanding of the statement ''I am the world'', Jean?

regards Clive

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 22 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Pavil wrote:

. . .

That is, I gather you are not going to reply to my last questions, unless I have missed something.

Those questions were:

So you think that occasionally putting labels on people furthers understanding and inquiry? In what way does it? A label, an image, is a conclusion, is it not? And conclusions are the death-knell of inquiry. If one has concluded something, one can inquire no further.

It was my understanding that these Kinfonet forums are all about inquiring together. Am I wrong about that?

So I gather you are willing to put a label on someone, based on his first ever posting to the forum, without him uttering a single opinion, and yet you are not wiling to inquire into the meaning and consequences of that action.

I will not bother to check for replies any more.

Clive

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 22 Mar 2015
Topic: What is the real problem?

Jean

You asked recently "Does it help the world" And I replied: " 'help the world' suggests that one is separate from the world".

I just came across these words of K that are hugely relevant:

To change society you must break away from it. You must cease to be what society is: acquisitive, ambitious, envious, power-seeking, and so on.

Commentaries on Living Series 111 p82

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 10 Apr 2015
Topic: An article on another website (2)

Following my article: “ What is the real problem?” I have written a follow-up article called” What does it mean, to mean to be responsible?” . It continues the exploration started in the first article, asking if there is one common consciousness in mankind, rather than individual consciousnesses. It examines the meaning of K's words “You are the world” in the context of what is our responsibility in the on-going deterioration of the world, in the human mind.

As before the article is published on the website :http://guymcpherson.com/ and you would be very welcome to participate in this dialogue, if you were so moved.

The article can be found at: http://guymcpherson.com/2015/04/what-does-it-mean-to-be-responsible/

One has to scroll down below some other stuff to find the comments – they are right at the end.

Regards Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

Kolya Harari wrote: Isn't 'self examination' really just about checking that we're being honest?

Hi Kolya

Just out of interest (not intending to pick on your words) I looked up the root meaning of the word 'examine'. Apparently it is: “interrogate, question, torture”! Hmm, associations of the old Catholic Church inquisition. And also of the education system of course. The word does suggest that there is some standards, or knowledge, that is being used to do the 'examining'.

It also suggests that there is an examiner, and that which is examined, existing as separate things. But when we talk about SELF examination, is that really the case? Or is it one part of the mind examining another part? And if this is so, what significance does such a process have?

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

Kolya Harari wrote: trying to make sure we don't dent the very enemy itself, viz. ego?

We cannot fight the ego. It is a battle impossible to win, as we ARE the enemy

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Thank you!

max greene wrote: Is it possible to "think together"

Hi Max

Well, as long as we both are asking that question, it seems that it is possible.

Over dinner last night with a couple of friends, a dialogue did start up. This 'thinking together seems to be at least a part of dialogue. Watching my own part in it, it came that one's INTENTION is what is crucial. With the right intention, difficulties seem to fade away.

Intention is a hard word to define, but the sort I mean seems to arise from seeing the necessity of something.

At the same time, one was watching (you rightly emphasise the importance of watching) the counter movements to dialogue that arise. The most obvious one is to drift into ideas. Ideas are not fact. They are speculation. And also becoming anecdotal seems to dissipate the energy of thinking together. Anecdotes, not matter how relevant they might seem to the raconteur, represent individual, separative experience. And really they 'prove' nothing.

Hmm, seems I was indulging in an anecdote there! :-).

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

Yes. And it is interesting that when one is passively alert, incidents, responses, that reveal oneself, can happen any moment, in any circumstances.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

Kolya Harari wrote: Yet still for this supposed misdemeanor the admin steps in and banishes the questioner rather than the supposedly offended. How K-enquiry is that? Where might it get us, exactly, this cow-towing to supposed offense?

As I have taken on the task of moderator, I will make some statement about how I see that role shortly - at the top of the forum Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 19 Nov 2015
Topic: Thank you!

max greene wrote: Forget thinking.

Would you care to enlarge on this statement, Max? Is it a directive?

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 20 Nov 2015
Topic: Thank you!

I hope you don't mind, Radha, if I open a new topic for your question.

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 20 Nov 2015
Topic: Why are we so afraid of conflict

I hope you do not mind, Radha, that I have opened a new topic for your question

Yes, indeed, conflict is the human condition. I was on the verge of starting a discussion on this issue myself. If anything is the defining factor of the human race, it is conflict. In all his affairs man is in conflict, nationally, politically, socially, racially, economically, in the family, in intimate relationship – and at the very root, in his own consciousness. It seems this has been the human condition since time immemorial, and it only seems to grow, not abate.

This is not just a theory. As you say Radha, it is everywhere one looks. And when one starts to get to know ANYONE, it doesn't take much scratching below the veneer to discover the great conflict in their life.

Civilisations have come into being, built up with vast human effort, only to collapse in war. Then things are rebuilt, only to be destroyed by new conflicts. Conflict means incredible waste of human energy, and immense human suffering

And strangely, the issue of human conflict per se is hardly ever, if ever, discussed. Although great emphasis and extensive analysis of particular conflicts happens everyday. It seems we are so used to living in conflict we hardly notice, hardly realise it.

I think it is clear that the cause of conflict is division, separation. But it is natural to ask: why does man divide himself, when the result is such destructive conflict. And, perhaps most importantly of all, can conflict end?

But Radha, you are asking a different question about conflict. ''Why are we so afraid of conflict?''

Well, the obvious reasons have been touched upon above – it is destructive, it is painful, it brings about suffering. It takes away any semblance of security. It threatens to overwhelm the whole world.

But I feel I must be missing something in your question, Radha. Can you expand?

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Why are we so afraid of conflict

max greene wrote: When the psychological is given priority over the physical, that is the beginning of sorrow and suffering.

Hi Max

Thanks for joining in on this topic.

What you say about conflict seems to be quite true. And we can see this “ When the psychological is given priority over the physical, that is the beginning of sorrow and suffering.” in the action of suicide bombers, in acts of so-called heroism in war time, and in so many everyday examples – the psychological self is given more importance, amazingly, than physical life itself.

Now I would like to ask you a question, Max, with absolutely no offence intended. I ask to extend our inquiry. If you have seen the nature of conflict, struggle, sorrow, suffering, as you describe in your mail, are you yourself free of such things? Do you live a life of perfect peace and harmony?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

Hi Kolya

Well, I have read your mail, but obviously I cannot comment on the justice or otherwise of decisions taken about your previous posts – I simply don't have the details. Neither do I like sitting in judgement.

Also I find it is not possible for me to talk in the abstract about things, I can only meet the challenges that come to me, directly. But I can say that I do not intend to be 'a silent moderator'. And I will at least issue a yellow card! But may I remind you that I am only human. As are we all, and so prone to make mistakes. But I suggest we can also let go of the mistakes made, let go of hurt, let go of resentment.

Indeed, it seems to me this letting go of the past generally is a crucial part of the art of living.

Regards Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: A Response to 'Some Comments from the Moderator'

Kolya Harari wrote: The following is actually copied verbatim from #20 'Self Examination

Well, I had better copy my reply to you, also :-)

Hi Kolya

Well, I have read your mail, but obviously I cannot comment on the justice or otherwise of decisions taken about your previous posts – I simply don't have the details. Neither do I like sitting in judgement.

Also I find it is not possible for me to talk in the abstract about things, I can only meet the challenges that come to me, directly. But I can say that I do not intend to be 'a silent moderator'. And I will at least issue a yellow card! But may I remind you that I am only human. As are we all, and so prone to make mistakes. But I suggest we can also let go of the mistakes made, let go of hurt, let go of resentment.

Indeed, it seems to me this letting go of the past generally is a crucial part of the art of living.

Regards Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Self Examination

I already did that :-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: A Response to 'Some Comments from the Moderator'

From the moderator:

We seems to be getting into images of personalities, judgements of the value of other's comments, and simple opinions on matters. Can we stick to factual matters?

I suggest we put our energies into what the forum is meant to be about, which I take to be exploration of the fundamental issues of living

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Why are we so afraid of conflict

Max, I am terribly sorry, being inexperienced in the technicalities of the forum, I deleted your previous posting, when I meant to correct my response to it.

First let me repost your words:

To the extent that one sees and understands, to that extent one is free. This goes for everyone. It cannot be otherwise, because understanding is right action, choiceless action. So, am I free, do I live a life of perfect peace? To the extent that I understand, yes.

If you want to repost yourself, please do so.

sorry

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Why are we so afraid of conflict

Max wrote:

"To the extent that one sees and understands, to that extent one is free. This goes for everyone. It cannot be otherwise, because understanding is right action, choiceless action. So, am I free, do I live a life of perfect peace? To the extent that I understand, yes".

I feel this is a very good answer. Yes, to the extent that one sees and understands, to that extent one is free. That goes for everyone, yes.

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: Why are we so afraid of conflict

max greene wrote: The amazing thing is that through the centuries our entrenched belief in the primacy of the psychological, the imaginary self, has gone relatively without discussion.

This is quite right, Max. I have talked to people doing psychology courses at a University, and THE COURSE DOES NOT EVEN MENTION THE SELF. Believe it or not.

So why this blindness? A blindness which brings about so much darkness. Is it that we have taken what thought says as an absolute truth – rather than being merely what thought says?

Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 21 Nov 2015
Topic: A Response to 'Some Comments from the Moderator'

David T wrote: Why try to create an environment where there is no conflict

Hi David

Am I trying to create an environment where there is no conflict? Have I said that somewhere? I doubt if it is possible, unless everyone sees the necessity, the importance, of a life without conflict.

Of course building defences against the movement of the self, in others or in oneself, does not solve any problem. And of course one needs to face 'what is'. Yes, the illusion of self is only hurt precisely when it is NOT seen as illusion. I don't think any of this is in contradiction to not wanting to hurt anyone. Yes, it is important to be aware of all the movements of the self – but I don't in any way see this as a licence to hurt others with my words. I will attack others only when I am unaware of what I am doing.