Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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jean-m girard's Forum Activity | 147 posts in 4 forums


Forum: General Discussion Sat, 06 Mar 2010
Topic: Born going!

(Why the observer becomes the observed)

It is clear that what we have call the inner or going inside or to go within is not what K had in mind when he talked about the inner. It seems to me that we often understand the inner has been more associated with hidden emotion (the one that we are not incline to show) has our inner self. Emotions are a reaction, they can be express or masked but they are still a response from memories. In the same way that when the observer is not the observed, what we call the inner is not the inner because we often observed our response from memories. So why the observer becomes the observed or why the inner become the outer? Because we are touching the very foundation of our being witch is not a reaction or not the response from memories, we are touching the cause, the original cause of who we are, we have spend most of our time dealing or trying to control our response from memories which came after the original structure was conditioned in us. Most of our responses were a means to protect or to adapt our self, they are not the cause. So when the observer is not the observed or the inner is not the outer it is because we are dealing with emotion/response conditioning that was established has a self protection mechanism. When the observer becomes the observed or the inner become the outer it is because we are looking at the original source of our make up instead of the reaction form our make up. The separation that comes between the observer and the observed could very well be an effort from the brain to resolve a difficulty and because it?s knowledge is limited and as great difficulty to accept this situation it understand the reaction from memories as the cause.

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 07 Mar 2010
Topic: Born going!

mark exley wrote: Conditioning is powerful. It begins as soon as we are born. How do you fight that? We learn that this face means impatience. But it doesn't mean that. It's a trick. All the lower emotions are due to missing perception; they are the essence of the missing perception. You know essence. Drop a little essence into bubbly water and you have bubbly apple water. So you can get the missing perception if you just take this essence (the emotion) and put it outside.

I do have to tell myself here and there that this journey could not be motivated by and end, this is what you means by the face of conditioning means or is impatience?

Has I was reading this paragraph, it came on me that I saw what you are discussing from a different angle, actually from opposite side, the essence being total perception. But your version is very interesting, and it make sense if we accept the fact that nothingness is total perception. Am I following here?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 07 Mar 2010
Topic: Born going!

mark exley wrote: How do you fill the mind with the world so that it really is complete?

Now this is the one million dollar question. I find this movement of going from brain to perception a good idea, you feel like moving from one to the other, it certainly keep the brain quiet, calmer and has no reaction coming from this movement. Reading and interacting with people like the one on this forum seem to stimulated, encouraged this sharpness of the mind. I think also to experiment with K suggestion can open the mind to other revelation of our make up. Has you say the mind need to be fill with reality if not, it get confuse with all this make belied. Yes it is very attractive this awareness of seeing something real. It require that the brain willingly accept to see it self as it is, this may be 99 % or 1 %of the work. You talk about impatience, I do wander sometime why it is taking a live time to come to grasp with the natural running of live. This learning about reality has to be it, that?s all there is, learning to learn well can be a satisfying state of mind.

mark exley wrote: This is another observer. It was there during childhood;

There is a lot of interesting point in you reply and yes I can see there is a different observer, less prompt to evaluate or change the value of surroundings. I quests it would not be perception with out an observer.

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 09 Mar 2010
Topic: Born going!

jean-m girard wrote: I find this movement of going from brain to perception a good idea, you feel like moving from one to the other, it certainly keep the brain quiet, calmer and has no reaction coming from this movement.

mark exley wrote: There is only one other. He is alive. Nothing can be him if it is less than he is as he lives in the present world. You can't take him from there and put him somewhere so you can see him in that somewhere where you have put him. Seeing has to be devoid of moving him, of making another of him pretending this is a duplicate.

After examining closer what I wrote here, I can see that I fail to see that this movement to a more quiet state of mind, where there is no observer, is the state of observation.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 08 Oct 2011
Topic: Integration of Mind

Hi Paul, I am wandering about the meaning of (mind and heart). I do understand that the mind is containing every thing, it would be the whole human with all the different aspect , going from personality , thought , quiet mind , sharp mind , religious mind, little mind , including senses, emotion and brain. Mind is the term that most of us are familiar with, (he has a beautiful mind) would be something that most people could relate to. When we use the word heart, (you have a heart), (a good heart,) (you will need a strong heart) we are talking about a quality that we see in human which could be interpreted has, strong , tough, ( I am working with a man that has heart) meaning that he is a good worker, sturdy, he is not frail. To have heart would mean that he is strong and also good. In a religious sense, sacred heart, pure heart, holy heart, would mean purity. I was wandering if you could write to me a few word on how you see mind and heart.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 08 Oct 2011
Topic: Integration of Mind

Also as an example: lets say that I have a brother, we have not talk for many years, of course the disagreement is childish and I have this contradiction within, my mind is immovable, does not want to move but a the same time I would say that my heart is wanting to result the difficulty, I am in a state of contradiction. Here my heart could be my quilt, telling me that I am wrong in my position and I should be open to result the problem. My heart here could be the product of my religious conditioning? Here my heart is wiser, my mind is refusing to give in to.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 08 Oct 2011
Topic: Integration of Mind

Muad dhib wrote: jean-m girard wrote:

To have heart would mean that he is strong and also good. hello jean m..I posted here recently what k meant by heart, I have lost the quote , by he was saying that for him he is using heart when he mentions the whole mind, he added it was a matter of speech for him..

Thank you, it make a lot of sense to me, I think you hits right on the nail , have a nice day.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 09 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

There is without any doubt to me, a different reality in front of us when we are in a state of observation. I f I am stuck in my thought and I am looking at the world, every thing is gloomy there is no life to it. So of course I try to keep my self as much has I can in a state of observation to have a more objective look on life Without trying to force it or discipline myself but I still have to make this movement into observation, I don’t think this would be call discipline but we could call it an action.

Knowing that I can stay in that state (observation) temporarily, is all I can do, because thought always move in, to break off that state of mind. So I keep doing the movement to go back in observation, I can keep doing it for hour and days. I am wandering if it would not be more realistic to approach the state of observation has a wave that go in and out, if we consider all the other piece of the mind that are functioning at the same time, thought and emotion inside and every thing outside of us. It seem to me that if I don’t react to the thought moving in, because I had made the motion to be in observation, I think that I still maintain that state when the thought come in. When I decide to observe it seem appropriate that thought would move in, that state or the decision to observe is a movement toward our thought so isn’t it normal that thought move in? Now if we familiarize our self with the state of observation and we can bring it back without thinking about it , is seem ok that thought/emotion would be there, there has to be something to observe when we are in that state. Being in observation is like a multi-task, we are observing many things at the same time, maybe I should say every thing at the same time. When I say that thought is breaking my observation , am I not saying that I am reacting to what I see? Isn’t it the reaction to what we see, that is breaking off observation?

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 10 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: An effort made without an expecting end result is taken over by the awareness.

Let me say what you are saying to see if I get your point. I am making an effort and awareness of my end result, in my observation will cancel out the effort and not distorted what is being observed? May be I still value effort?

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 10 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: The observation is,then distorted.

I was adding on my effort (end result) on top of my observation, the idea of observation is to cancel out the thought process, not to add on.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is this not directional/goal oriented action? If yes, then it should be called reaction.

Yes I would call this a reaction, I thought that this movement going from thought to observation was an action, I was mistaken. After experimenting today I have seen that it was not observation but my effort/reaction to go on observation. I thought there was no reaction to this movement but I was wrong there are effects. From what I saw today could it be that awareness of thought brings back the observation?

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: When you decide ...this decision comes in the form of thought, doesn't it? So, the thought process has already started. Our mind compulsively lives in occupation and will endlessly keep on supplying thoughts one after the other, won't it?

For some raison I just thought it had to do with will, I could not see how I could move into observation any other way. I think I can see it better tonight, observing my reaction/effort which I was calling observation showed me I more natural way. I think it is possible that I did not have the assurance that it would happened so I decided to take care of it myself. You see thought was saying I will take care of it for you.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: For doing this one has to understand "negative thinking" which is not related to positive and negative thoughts as we understand them. One has to understand the relation between the inner emptiness and ending of thought rather than learn a new way of moving awareness in and out.

Thought is so full of speculation about all the good thing that will happen to me, of course we could call this positive thinking and also very deceiving. Negative thinking is the state of mind when every thing is black. When you talk about negative thinking, that you are making allusion for ex: (I don’t know) a state of mind which is negative in a sense of not knowing.

When you talk about (inner emptiness and ending of thought) I may have touch that state of mind , not sure a understand it. Today , while working I fell emptiness realizing that my effort was not there only for observation but all ever my life, with my friend , family, working relation , there was always and effort for every thing. While realizing this today, this made me felt empty; it was like I was losing something big. This seeing is changing a lot for me. Writing about it right now is making it stronger.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I think you have your heart on valueing the effort

Yes I agree with you. I did not see that before.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Yes, it could be provided it is not an alteration.Please observe todays kinfonet quote of JK.

24 hour ago I was under this impression that my effort was observation; if I look back I can see that the effect of managing my thought was not that great. So this is a plus for me I have learn something. Now we are saying my thought was unveil, expose and at the same time alter it’s approached with a new understanding and could keep me going like that for a while until a discover that this movement was a new learned movement from ego/thought? At this point I can only see that this movement had an effect on my thought, it did end it, so I would encourage it. I have exposed that my effort was not observation, which is great, are you saying that maybe 24 hour later, ego has already learned a new way and has modified it self so that it could served a copy of what I have learned yesterday? The yesterday experience has already alter into a copy, this copy in a long run is has poisons has the thought that effort is observation, it was great yesterday and it has already become memories/alter? This understanding could applied to every moment of our life, has soon has it is understood, it no longer applied?

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Could we be as sensitive to the illusions of the thought as we are sensitive to the physical threat?If that thing happens then the awareness is going deep down the entire psychological being.Isn't that so?

Yes we are sensitive to a physical treat, we can feel the smallest change of heat or cold, the smallest thing touching you body. Could we be has sensitive to the illusion of thought? When it comes to thinking, what are we looking for? It’s authenticity? It’s veracity? It’s creativity? When I leaned something new there is a bit of a vacuum that happened in me. Sensitivity with the illusion of thought has some thing to do with the wake it leaves behind doesn't it? Being able to read this wake has a lot to do with understanding your mind. I am and artiste painter, of course my sensitivity about line, color , shade has develop considering all the hour I have spend in from of a canvas, I had relation that was very telepathic, where the information is being transfer and understood by the whole body, all that is sensitivity , isn’t it? If there is something in life that has potential to develop, expand, is sensitivity. There is also a color , a shape , a sound, to thought, we may only need to learn to read the code.

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: All knowledge about 'emptiness' is counter productive. What is one going to do about it? Is there a way that will give understanding of not making it an issue that keeps disturbing the peace of mind?

I started to fill emptiness before I started to worry about it, I did not dwell on it , I simply move on, but now I know that it is there. My worry was not there because of the emptiness, it was there because I felt that people could see a difference in my way of being, I thought there were a detachment happening from me . I have tried to figure it out, I thought some kind of buffer zone and not really wanting to dive into it…lol So you are saying intensify it, accustom your self to it but don’t try to understand it?

I think that if I look back to all the projection and goal I had embarking into this adventure, which was not emptiness; this may help to open myself a bit more to the unknown. I have to see; felling empties seem to have had an effect on other at this point, I means the world around me, this may be just speculation but it did seem better organize some how...lol

Forum: General Discussion Fri, 11 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote: For doing this one has to understand "negative thinking" which is not related to positive and negative thoughts as we understand them.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: PS: Normally an idea must seen as we would see a bottle containing the poision,then we are sensitive.Do we see like that?

Yes you are both making a reference to negatif thinking, I keep discovering about it, on top of keeping us alert, it is also a beautifull state of mind, very calming. I think there is a lot to say about not knowing.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 12 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: How our consciousnes of this issue of market influences our psychi, that is more important if we are to avoid further illusions.

When some one has enough money to take care of his security, what does he do with the rest that is coming in? Money then becomes entertainment doesn’t it? The search for better, the pleasure of seen you bank account grow, refining your look trough more refine product. The majority of people here in America are in between the very rich and very poor; in the US I believed there are 22.4 percent of poor people or 39.5 million, so we are saying that there are about 325 million people that are comfortable and are looking for a little more. There is also organization like (Friends of the Earth), that have became international, offering good product and are base on a more reasonable distribution of the profit , renewable commerce/business which we should support, a step in the right direction. Those merchant (Friends of the Earth), are taking more and more space in the market because of the education they do, every one agree with a more fair commerce and feel good about it.

Has you say cravings, urges, gratification, ambition is certainly the root of the problem. While we still admirer ambitious man, because of their wealth, people are staving. We are all willing to make an effort to get a little more. We also know that a little more will not do, this will go on for ever. You are asking (How our consciousness of this issue of market influencing our psychic?) I would say that consciousness of this issue, make us probably disappointed of our achievement. We look back and with regret, see time in our life where it would been possible to do better with our money. So this system is keeping all of us in a state of dissatisfaction, it is keeping us in a depress mode, because must of us don’t really believe that will ever be able to get out of this cycle. For other and I will put myself in this category, because money was less important, we venture ourselves into exploring other possibility so came to accept that money will not make me happy, so we have invested part of our energies else where and the problem remain, we are still not happy. So I don’t see much difference between, some one that dream to be rich, someone that try to be rich and someone that is rich? So I am too reasonable to hope that all system crash, because I can imagine the misery that this would bring about. I think we are stuck, our psychic is stuck, between wanting more and not wanting less, this system which is surely degrading is keeping all of us, juggling with state of illusionary stillness, they also call it public relation. Good question, you make me wander how would be life without all this hope for more.

Forum: General Discussion Sat, 12 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is it really correct to blame the bussiness people alone for all the ills of the banking bussiness, stating that it is their self centred/ self-protective nature that is sole responsible for the turn of things.

I think it is correct to critic any social system, (banking or government or business) specially when they seem to favor only a few amount us, has they say the 1%. One think that is sure is that if those big corporation are surviving and making big profit, is because a lot people a supporting them. I do support them in a way that I am dealing with bank and other corporation to get what I need. If we build a trap to catch a rabbit how much responsibility will have the rabbit wicht is getting caught?

Forum: General Discussion Sun, 13 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

Dan Mohad Dib wrote: any business will always lead to the same situation...is my deep deep view.. any business idea in the mind shall end, if not dream on...the last 10 000 years will be the next 10 000 years..in my views.. greed cannot lead to goodness, never..

K ( I can only see the total movement of greed when there is no direction - to get rid of it, to stop it, to suppress it - all that prevents me from looking at greed totally. Right? Because, as we said the other day, direction is fragmentary, which is a motive? Motive is fragmentary. The motive gives a direction and therefore it is fragmentary. When we have a directive, that I must get rid of it - greed - then I have moved along a certain direction, therefore direction prevents me from seeing the whole.)

Hi Dan, I assume that I am not talking to a wealthy man, maybe a man that is in a similar situation than I, working hard for his money and not a lot to show for a life time of work. I never saw myself has a greedy man; I have share what I had. It seem to me that your word are directed to business man and has mention here a direction or a motif would be fragmentary so would not give an accurate picture of the whole.

K (I am not greedy for wealth, or money, position, status and all the horrors, but I am terribly greedy to have truth - you follow? - to find truth.)

May be the second statement of K would give us a better example of the greed, that we share has people like us that have been seriously looking for real answer, if we want to have a wholly understanding of greed? I have not research the subject that much, this may be the first time I ask my self if I am greedy to have the truth? We may ask ourselves if being greedy here would have anything to do with keeping the true for ourselves? Has greedy people we could enjoy flashing it left and right without ever giving any clue on how to find it, this would be greed doesn’t it? If we are one mind, greed has to be in every one us? It is certainly not limited to only rich people. How does greed would manifest with people like you and I that have find a precious source of information?

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 15 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: That effort of observation is not observation is defenetly a great relevation.If effort is not going to interfere in the observation any more it is a fact to you, otherwise it is knowldge stored in the memory.

In our effort or desire to understand better, by trying different possibility at some time or a other I would say that we may touch a reality has describe by K. I like to call it an instant of grace. This revelation came to me as a fact, not only for a better understanding of observation but also reveal a pattern that touched every area of my live, this simple seeing of effort being part in my observation touch all of my other relation ship, almost like always trying to be a bit more, a extra push within to be more acceptable. So I have identified this experience has being real, but I have also recognize that it is now store in my memories. This experience also has left in me a new understanding, may be a deeper one, on the necessity of challenging our own understanding with a negative approach has we talk earlier in this conversation. This quote by K is giving light onto what I am trying to say here.

A mind which has responded to challenges partially, and therefore created misery for others and for itself, sees that all responses and all challenges are limited; therefore the mind asks itself: Can the mind be the challenge as well as the response? This means an astonishing state of questioning itself and itself responding and knowing its limitations and the limitations of its own challenge. And the next step is: can the mind be in a state in which there is no challenge and no response? Where will that lead to? Why should it lead anywhere? Please follow this, the thing of beauty is in itself, there is no need for it to be something else, to be more. You understand? A thing that in itself is pure - what need is there for it to be more? Bombay, 1961, 4th Public Talk

Forum: General Discussion Tue, 15 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Who many of us really hold on to that I idea of meterailism, except as long as the thought process sustains the pleasure principle of materailism, keeps away the pain.

We may all be greedy when come time to try to save what sustains pleasure in us.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: So what is the point of talking about an young , pretty, self conscious lady taking a stand on her courtship?

I don't know, what is the point?

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is psychological moment of extrovert would be same as the corresponding moment of the introvert?

Exaggeration inward and exaggeration outward, you are talking extrovert, introvert, I am wandering if all those word could mean the same thing? I have a history of being a man that has tendencies to exaggeration; at 14 years old, coming out of a man school for broken home, one of my last report was, I had tendencies to exaggerate. Which mean nothing to me and my family, but did stuck to my mind. Of course today I understand better and it is clear that we are talking about invisible scare left by negative conditioning.

Those two aspects of me always manifested in different situation, if I had assurance that I had some influence with people around me I became extrovert, if not I was introvert, at the same time admiring people that could stay themselves in all situations. All that invisible injury goes from wanting to control, so that we could feel some importance in the eye of other. Always depending on other to have a sense of self evaluation, (they like me) so I can use them to get what I want, (manipulation). Of course at the same time exaggeration inward, introvert period where I lose myself into trying to figure out what is wrong with we, with very little knowledge to back me up. Are we not taking here about neurotic behavior, daily psychos? Normal enough to function in our society, being able to keep a job, recuperating on weekend and evening and never resolving any issue, Depending on sexes , drug, cigarette , movie and unable to keep serious relation. Often find yourself with similar type of people.

I think that all of that is emotion, swinging from pos to neg and neg to pos, no balance emotionally. A negative conditioning, breaks the normal circle of emotion so you find yourself always trying to compensate for those injuries, and in my view, introvert and extrovert are two manifestation of fundamental personality characteristic. One of the difficulties when I was young is that I thought I was the only one like that, today I know that a lot people are trying to deal with this.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: Is it enough if both of them understand the principle of pleasure and pain?

I think this is the way to resolve those difficulty, this idea did help me to better understand.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I wonder if their moments are same?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: I wonder if I can guess about their extovertic and introvertic moments? could they be same?.

You are asking if they both happen at the same time? I did not see it happenning at the same time. Like plaisure and pain, I saw frist plaisure and then pain,but now that your mentioning it,in my desire for plaisure, there is also the seed of pain. No I did not see extovertic and introvertic manifesting at the same time. It woud certainly make sense if they both happen at the same time, because they originat from the same place.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 16 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: That is not what I was looking out for.Once the individual has the understanding of the entire process of desire, the inner moment and outer moment could be the same. That is the individual would be a perfect extrovert as well as a perfect introvert.Is this true?

Non, this sentence would not be true, because if we have understood the entire process of desire, the need of being outer or inner would be irrelevant.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 17 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: All these postngs are intened for that.Is that correct?

I would think that this is correct, I have to stretch my self out to understand the meaning of your word and I have to stretch myself in to uncover my response to your word.So yes the posting here demande a balance between the input and the output.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 17 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote: .Do we really require theories for that?

Yes this a good point, we very often focus on the disturbance (crave) and forget that the thinking process can be so much more if we become conscious of it. It can be compare to the heart, as long as it is doing the work it was intended to do, we don’t need a diagnostic. But contrary to the heart the thinking process can learn and has great potential of going deeper and wider, I could also say that it can be creative.

Do we really require theories for that?

There is no need for theories (diagnostic) if every thing runs normally.I can do all kind of thing without any need to explaine myself.

Forum: General Discussion Thu, 17 Nov 2011
Topic: A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.

This conversation may be moving into intensity?