Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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jean-m girard's Forum Activity | 147 posts in 4 forums


Forum: The Sacred Fri, 12 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

(krishnamurti's statements on consciousness and its contents)

Yes you are talking about ( the consciousness is the resulted of the content ) Yes, this also hit me, the first time I red it. For some raison I thought That my consciousness was greater the me, and it can not be. They have to be the same.

( To me consciousness manifests as desire, fear, envy etc)

Consciousness does not manifest as desire, fear, envy?.. Consciousness is the knowing of you, in a desire consciousness will see it desire, if we have a fear, the consciousness will know it has a fear, consciousness mean to see, to see your self in fear, in joy, in every aspect of your being.

Forum: The Sacred Fri, 12 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Jean, I'm sorry you can't separate consciousness from any of the above emotions. Traditional philosophies may give higer place to consciousness. I don't deny that. When you come to K all will be turned upside down, mercilessly. But at the end healing does take place.

I am conscious that we are talking about one being with many different element, I am not saying that one is better than the other, for the pursuit of communication we need to agree on term. To say that consciousness is not separate from desire, ok we are one. But if we are going to have a discussion about it, in my mind if I have a desire for xyz, I can also be conscious of it, so we are dealing with two different element. From what I can understand from your post the difference mention between consciousness and desire is not so important to mention we are one anyway. I may have a different approach to K writing , and I had very limited interaction with people that have study K, I see great importance in understanding the meaning of word for a better communication.

(Jean, I'm sorry you can't separate consciousness from any of the above emotions.) Could you explain to me the meaning of this sentence ? I can see that our consciousness is the results of the content. So it would be difficult for me to be conscious of something that I am not aware of. Are you saying that consciousness does not exits by it self and is a by product of our emotion. It seem to me that in my state of quietness from my emotion I am still very conscious.

Forum: The Sacred Fri, 12 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Stephen Smalley wrote: Yes sir. Without the content, what is consciousness? This is a question on my mind lately.

Yes very good question is consciousness only the result of the accumulation of the content, or as also faculty to see. Ex: my eye have recorded every thing I have seen so I have an accumulation of all those experience. But if a come across something I have never seen before I will be able to see it, so it has a faculty to see.

If my consciousness is the accumulation of all that I am, does it have the faculty to see something it never seen? is it the understanding of a new experience that will give me the consciousness of it?

Forum: The Sacred Sat, 13 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Ramesh

Ok, I can see that what you are saying, consciousness will blend in if it can identify with it, by naming it or responding to it (it being the content).

Also, you are saying that observation will reveal the working of consciousness and this vision may bring about awareness?

So we are saying that consciousness is product of the content? I know this is all word, but I thought consciousness was bigger then the content, because consciousness seem to be every where. This is not what you call also the I, is it?

Forum: The Sacred Sat, 13 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?

I would say that my interest develop in K, because I was aware of problematic thinking in my living, and K was dealing with it. I don?t always separated thinking and living, I separate it when my thinking is taking me away from living into a less balance living. When it seem to take me into a no answer zone, a recognizable area of obsession. But as you point out thinking and living could very well be the same because we draw from the same content. I may have a mixture in my movement of thinking that go from pain to pleasure, so I try to avoid the pain and not very concern by thinking that is less recognizable as painful. Yes I would say that thinking and living being the same, are being manage on a scale of pain and pleasure and this is where we draw the line of thinking and living.

Forum: The Sacred Sun, 14 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?

Eve Goodmon wrote: Thinking is not a reaction is it?

I would say that thinking is a reaction, to what ever is in from me.

You know if we go into the mechanic of the brain, how do it work? Because thinking come from the brain. To me the brain reacts to, what ever is happening out side and inside, couldn?t we say that its principal movement if not the only movement of the brain is reacting to.

Couldn?t we say that the brain is a self sufficient machine? It energy is thought which in return react, isn?t it thought that nourish the brain to react, to keep it self in motion. Can we describe the mechanic of the brain in this manner? A self propelling engine where it?s reaction is the fuel?

Forum: The Sacred Sun, 14 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness
Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Ramesh G wrote:

When the 'me' is not, there's no consciousness as we know it, but only a pure perception.

Is that a theory or a reality? That is the question I would ask myself in this instance.

Like most of you I have had those moment where the veil of my own understanding about my self was raise, which allowed me to see some thing that I had never seen before. Up to that point my consciousness did not allow me to see it because of conditioning. But the simple fact of seeing something new is and expansion in perception isn?t it?

Forum: The Sacred Mon, 15 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?

Yes to talk about thought is thinking, I am putting the word together I am checking the spelling, i am trying to make sence so I am thinking.

Forum: The Sacred Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?

So you are saying that thought is the memory which we use to respond to my environment, thought being a capsule of information dictating the right behavior. At work I see some thing that need to be repair so I am using thought/memory and fix it, because is it always the same damage and always the same repair. So there is no thinking involve here, it is an automatic response.

But if I am reading your post and trying to understand, what you are saying. I will use those capsules of info/memory that I have about the word you are using to come up with the idea that you are putting across. Now you would call this thinking? So thought is and establish response, and thinking involve an action of reasoning with it? Thinking would involve also listening, because the response needed is not totally clear?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

I come from an era where meditation was all about controlling thought. Big surprise when I started to read K, is view seem to be quiet the opposite. Not been very successful in controlling my thought, K view made a lot of sense because if you can not fight them, better join then.. lol

I recall K saying meditation every minute, every second of our life, it seem to me at the time, like a lot of meditation. What hit me the most, was that meditation was to let thought happen and to follow them, to let it tell it story, going to the end of it, which is a big subject by it self? I have notice that in meditation as soon as I focus on a particular thought, to ear it story, it stop, I often came to the conclusion that it was a short thought, but I also came to understand that, to be able to let thought reveal it self , we need to be friendly whit it.

Forum: The Sacred Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: The sacred and profane

In a perfect world if we wanted something, would we have to pay for it ? :-)

Forum: The Sacred Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: The sacred and profane

Yes I agree with you, not wanting anything is very liberators I have experiment with it. Wanting is to be attached isn?t it?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

rachMiel ... wrote: the path of least resistance. ;-)

I am not sure that you have understood me here, maybe I am mistaking?

Join then, meaning that if we stop resisting them, learn to live with them, we might understand them better. Fighting them is what we have been doing all of our life. It was a bit of a joke.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Yiming Zhang wrote: If we don't meditate, will we also die?

K has spend a life time to teach us , to stimulate us, to show us a better way of living, through better undersantding of who we are. I know he talk about dieing but he is referring to part of our self which we no longer need to live. How did this idea of (Dieing if we don?t medidated) came to you?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Therese Okamoto wrote: i refer u 2 the discourse on the difference between Thought & Thinking

What make you think that i would be bettre there?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Therese Okamoto wrote: we set our minds to thinking on purpose

After work I came and read my post on meditation and I don?t think that I was very clear, some time I try to put to much in and the result is not that great. Are you saying by (we set our mind to thinking on purpose) that you choose a topic which you want a better understanding and then go into a state of meditation? You probably came across in K book how he explain meditation, (again he is not saying to allow thought to happen) but rather to be in state observation in from of our thought so that we become more aware of the real nature of our thought. When K talks about meditation he is talking about a better understanding through observation. This is where the idea of allowing then come, we can not be in observation if we don?t allow then.

In the book ( la première et dernière liberté) I am translating. K say: (meditation is understanding, meditation of the heart is comprehension. And how can I understand if I exclude? How can I understand if there is petition and supplication? In comprehension there is peace and freedom.)

Forum: The Sacred Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: The sacred and profane

Yes I can see what you are saying. I could want peace for all, I could want freedom for all people and this wanting would not be attachment it would be out of compassion? Wanting something is still a goal, a destination, and idealization, aiming to reach isn?t it When K is talking about want, he is not really distinguishing good and bad want, he pointing out that in wanting we narrow our vision, wanting this or that is still focusing, also we have inclination to attach our self to our goal, our hope, to our objective, they can become our raison to live.

To me wanting out of compassion does not makes sense because compassion is understanding of, in the now. It is like wanting something out of love, is it love? One want it but the fact is that if we want something it is still and indication that we have and image of what it supposed to be, this is also call conditioning. Now K is saying that love is the unknown, is infinite, it wouldn?t be love if it would limited by conditioning, if we experiment with this idea, I find that we don?t focus as much, we enlarge our vision, it is more inclusive.

Forum: The Sacred Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness
Stephen Smalley wrote:

jean-m girard wrote: is consciousness only the result of the accumulation of the content

Is consciousness time?

I did not understood consciousness has being the product of content, before I came to this forum. I have been looking and I see more and more that it is so. So if I say that the content of my brain is time, it would be difficult to say that my consciousness is not time, both of them being the same. And also I saw my mind going into several situation where my view/consciousness, of those happening repeated it self, when in reality the situation were different, so my reaction being the same in different situation is a good indication to me that yes, consciousness is time. What do you think?

Forum: The Sacred Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?

Peter Stephens wrote: so it seems fair to say at least in the beginning, thought is not thinking.

Has I was taking a shower I was thinking about your last post, and the idea of introducing picture came to my mind. We do think in term of picture don?t we? We very often try to adjust our thinking depending on the situation, but we rarely try to adjust our picture because if my color is blue I see live in blue. Now if I propose to you that thought/picture, would this put a bit a light into this conversation?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Hi Therese, In meditation when JK is talking about perception of each movement of thought, how do you applied this in your daily meditation?

I used to lay down in a comfortable position, about the same time every day, and let myself go into a haft asleep state. But JK is talking about observing each movement of the mind in our daily activity. I began to see meditation more like a constant observation, no more as a one day rendez-vous with myself.

Forum: The Sacred Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Ramesh G wrote: How can we create that pause?

I recall one quote from this site, many years ago, where JK was talking about one movement of the mind which was not of time. The raison why it was not of time, was that there was no reaction coming from this movement. This is a fact I believe that every movement of the mind is a action/reaction isn?t it ?

This action which does not create a reaction is a movement into the unknown. Now this idea can be very abstract, it was for me at the time because we are entering into the indescribable, which is the unknown. Unknown not because we don?t know and we may know one day, unknown because of it?s emptiness.

Forum: The Sacred Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Stephen Smalley wrote: Is time then stored in the brain as memory, as knowledge?

We can imagine our ancestor let say 400,000 years ago, with a brain that is starting to develop. The priority is to survive, so what is important for this young man, the night, and the day, season, the winter and summer which has a lot of importance for his survival. His brain starts noticing, remembering, and by so begin to modify his behavior, according to those happening which he can not control. So the concept of time is for him a question of survival. And all of this information is being accumulated, transfer from one generation to the other, and this is all about time/yesterday/memory. The brain continue to develop and put a lot of importance in yesterday. He can even improve his condition by remembering yesterday/pass. He has no way to recorder, to write this info so the brain/consciousness is force to develop, even improve his performance in remembering this information of time/yesterday if he wants to survive.

Forum: The Sacred Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Is thought thinking?
Peter Stephens wrote:

You seem to be saying there is some aspect to all of this which is real or I can take as based on a sound principle?

I am wandering, I know that I write one letter a the time but if I see the complete word it is easier. We dream and when we recall those the picture can be very clear in our mind. My brother send me yesterday the picture of a flower in the shape of a bird, I don?t remember where it came from or the name but right now it is very clair in my mind, I could draw it for you. I don?t personally remember reading any thing from JK speaking about picture, may be someone here has?

The only thing that I can observe right now is that those picture seem to come from the brain, they can be extremely accurate, the mechanism of pulling them out
are similar as the one of the thinking/thought, so what I am saying is , if this not part of thinking, what is it ? ??..I am saying do we think in term of word only? Do we think also in picture? What is an idea a bunch a word, a bunch of picture?

Forum: The Sacred Fri, 19 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness
Stephen Smalley wrote:

Stephen Smalley wrote: Is time then stored in the brain as memory, as knowledge?

How is time stored in the brain? Can we go slowly with this?

Time is constructed and store in the brain using also space, meaning that time is always the space between now and then. Take one thought, there is always a space between a thought (memory) and now, it could be 2 seconded, or 20 years. The space between now and that thought is time, the time between now and a thought is also a space.

Why do astronaut use light year to express the distance between the earth and a far away star. One light year is the space/time that will travel light in one year. The earth, (starting point) to a far away star, this is physical time/space.

Here we are talking thought so we are talking psychological time/space, we could call it (thought year) the space/time there is between the point of origin,(now) to a far away thought, is the space there is between now and then. To me it is easier to think in term of space when we talk about psychological time. We need to have two point of reference when we talk about space/time, the now with the pass or the future.

The now is the only time/space with only one point of reference. I am here now, you know where I am. There is no space/time in the now. If I tell you that I was reading 5 minute ago you know there is a time/space of 5 minute with my now. So if I have a thought, that thought was recorded and store let say 10 year ago, the time/space between now and 10 year ago is the structure that the brain as develop to know where it is. And it is always calculated from now.

Forum: The Sacred Fri, 19 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Ramesh G wrote: So we need time for physical survival. If I say I will go to my workplace tomorrow for the sake of earning my livelihood, there's no issue there.

That the way I see it also! .

JK said, many times that the brain is an excellent machine, man has made incredible thing. But the area where we need to improve is in our relation, we need to learn to love each other. Before we can do that we need to understand what love is, because our understanding right now of love does not work, we talk about love and act in the name of love and for some raison problem keep multiplying and we never sort out anything. JK is saying, to think that we will be happy tomorrow is time and an illusion because love is only in the now it will never be in the future. So love does not growth like a apple tree, the law of nature contain time. One, of JK proposition is remove the factor time when we are dealing with our relation, not when it is time to go to work.

Forum: The Sacred Sat, 20 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Stephen Smalley wrote: . I think you have to be careful of thought creating a self-justifying loop for it's own existence, for it's own perpetuation.

Yes, I agree, this is a very liniar idea in the history of man.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Sat, 20 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Linda Thorlakson wrote: without being anchored to the present.

Reading your post I started to wander about how do I listen?

I can see now that I am very focus when I listen. Mostly on the word that I perceive hoping to go to the end of that thought,witch always sleep between my finger anyway.

(Without being anchored to the present.)

You are saying that when we listen what ever we listen this action is alway in the present?

Forum: The Sacred Sat, 20 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Peter Stephens wrote: Talking now are there any pointers

Pointer: one thing I have notice in the functioning of the brain is that the brain seems to project on to other its own thinking. So I look around and critic other, not always realizing that I am seeing my own.

What do you mean by stream of consciousness? Are you talking composite mind? Are talking consciousness in term of culture?

Forum: The Sacred Sat, 20 Jun 2009
Topic: Consciousness

Michael Cecil wrote: The question, as I see it, is whether there is a consciousness--it would not be a specifically human consciousness--prior to the 'form', or the 'container' of the human consciousness or 'self' which originates in self-reflection.

Consciousness being the result of the content/self, the content is the human experience, so as far as I can see, prior to the form, there is no consciousness.

Am I following you?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Sat, 20 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Yiming Zhang wrote: What do you think.

Well , to me if you would not have any interest in all of that you probably wouldn?t be here. At this time you may be curious and need a bit more info to be able to decide if you want to get into it. I don?t think that you are in front of a decision here, you may be curious. We all are a click away from being all erase from your mind.

I can guaranty you that you will not be dealing here with puss over type of sheep, JK as always come up with fact to support every thing he wrote and the people here will not settle for any thing less. Keep us in your favorites and come and say I ones in a while. To better understand life and the society that will live in could not be bad.

There are many forum of JK on the web, this one is new, I have been here for a few week, I like it very much, I am slowly getting to know some people, they have similar concern as you and me.