Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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George Lanroh's Forum Activity | 271 posts in 3 forums


Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 20 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Wim Opdam wrote: Yes George,

Only by give it a name and or quality one introduce time. it's neutral in itself

Can one have a sense, come upon that one is that quality (awareness) which is timeless in less we/it identifies with time?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 20 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

max greene wrote: George,

Glad to see you posting again. As pointed out, we probably should have this somewhere else, but this is in response to your post.

Max, Clive

Maybe I am mistaken but I felt writing about unassociated awareness in a thread that spoke of the self ending when seen was spot on. Excuse me old friends if I errored :)

To this man awareness expressing its self through the human form is capable of identifying with endless possibilities forged in time as to who and what it is. Hitler, Stolin, Pol pot to this (awareness) represents just a few of the examples of awareness's ability to unconsciously accumulate an identity and remain totally in the dark to its presence acting as a filter upon all perception.

My question to my friends and forgive me if I am moving this thread off topic. Can you, can I, be that awareness which inhabits a human body and remain at heart unconditionally free of psychological time? If not free, can one be aware that one is appearing in this world as an awareness not separate from that accumulated content now responsible for forming our opinions. One must agree that the accumulation of psychological time has painted an overlay upon our world, a map but not the true territory. Hasn't it also painted a map of who and what we think we are? Below that map to this man lies you/me not as self, but as unassociated awareness, and when self realized is unborn to the self of time.

I can hear awareness now: " Let me just put myself aside for a moment :)"

On a more serious note: If an when through awakening awareness puts its accumulated self aside then would not this be awareness unborn to time yet maybe for the first time conscious of the implications of its involvements with time? Can awareness be nobody? Or be somebody and know its only for a short time playing somebody? Now awareness is no longer fooled by temporary masks made of time. Can we ever look at each other the same way again?

Ever heard the saying: "I can look straight through you?"

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 20 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Tom Paine wrote: "To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding."

Hi Tom

Is there any one or anything to escape from?

Tom to me awareness can come upon the time identity that it has been identifying with and not unconsciously pickup a new one. Awareness can also come upon that the problem it has been working on is also a creation of time. This is the reason it is said often:

"There is no place to go and no one to get there." To me that brilliant illuminating light within (awareness) has the opportunity to come upon its nature of being at the center of both subject and object reality as for being its life giving energy. To me the world of the self of time and the world of time based object reality cannot exist without our buy-in, without our belief, our purchasing power. It is at this point where for me the dreamer and the dream become one and awareness is left holding bag of illusions realizing there was never anyone where to go or anyone to get there. Awareness can now rest in the sense that it knows it is creating by artificial means a journey to take and a reason for taking it. Yet to this mind the journey most often must be taken to discover the emptiness of dualistic pursuits when the dreamer was the first to be unconsciously accepted or dreamt up by awareness. Awareness from the first has no dreamer am I right? IN the end awareness has the possibility of being all seeing but never really the seen, just the invisible :)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Tom Paine wrote: Can you say how this might come about when one is identified....with job, family, money, etc.?

Hi Tom

And Patricia I would like to respond to you here also if that is ok. I just feel my response here will cover even the horrors of war being that all human problems are seen here as coming from unconscious associations with psychological time. I know you have heard me quote this before "Raise one particle of dust and the whole world appears". What I get from this quote is: take for granted that one thought was not born of conceptualization and each and every thought built upon that foundation will be built upon a world of illusion.

If just for a moment can we place ourselves as being awareness at the dawn of time? Be awareness before picking up a particular self to identify with. For a moment one is not a person, a father or a mother, not an employer or an employee, not a soldier or a civilian, nor a coward. For a moment to make my point be no one. Due to our conditioning we unconsciously pickup a name, a basic identity, if we are an American, an English woman or an Arab. We unconsciously as you know pickup our cultural conditioning and here in the states become Republicans or Democrats. It is from here after we have picked up all our unconscious and conscious conditioning that we ask questions like: " Can you say how this might come about when one is identified....with job, family, money, etc.?" Or how can you just say all the war and killing in the world is not happening. I agree with you both Patricia and Tom that our unconscious identification with time has created and is responsible for the mess we are in both at home and on the battlefield. But I also say that a sword would never be pulled from its scabbard if the reason why it was about to be pulled was seen as empty and meaningless and owing its existence to psychological time. Krishnamurti if I am correct always pointed to going after the root of man's problem and not the tops. I say the root is unconscious identification with psychological time by the awareness in the human body. Tom as a side note: You and I as awareness have unconsciously picked up over chronological time an identity and cultural conditioning. There is nothing keeping one a prisoner accept ones identification with these cultural conditionings. We can choose to step out of them at any time and walk away from who we are, job, marriage, children with only our culture holding us some what accountable. I like you feel one has a certain responsibility for the position our unconsciousness has got us in. Besides that family, work and the world of time can be quite rewarding when the cart is once again behind the horse called awareness. But yes we must still live in a world where seven billion other people have not even had a glimpse of their unconscious association with time. What can one due but " Be in the world but not of it" that is the unconscious one that is. You and I, all of us can be aware of when we are dabbling in time. And when we are father and mothers, we are dabbling, even if we have to dabble to make a buck.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

m christani wrote: but the roots of nationalism, security, pride, aggression, always remains the same. Can we look at these in ourselves? For there lies the solution.

Yes, at the root of time is its solution or our non-duality in using it. There is a sense here that there can be a harmony between creator and creation when it is found that they are not separate.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Clive Elwell wrote: Imagining some reply here - yes, it may be that the mind is falseness itself.

Hi Clive

I hesitate to steer this thread off direction but what you said about the mind being falseness its self rings a bell here.

To this man awareness is like a mirror illuminating and reflecting both the psychological and physical worlds, it is nothing more. When it picks up a self, an identity it has picked up an illusion an avatar which has no existence outside of the dimension of psychological time. This is why the self cannot be found outside its concept, the reason thought can't see its own self end is because outside a self concept awareness has no self. It would seem that mother nature has played a trick, bent the reality of one to create a false sense of duality of subject object when there is only object and the awareness of it by awareness. It would seem that awareness is not an object and when we as awareness objectify ourselves unconsciously the end result is blindness and the sleep we are here to awaken from.

I best be gone before accused of babbling :)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Clive Elwell wrote: Choose? Do you feel we can really chose to step out of all identification? Are you putting the usual meaning on that word 'choice'?

Tom

This is a good point, a good pointer to a moment in which we stand before the door of two worlds. Even though I am saying two worlds when the choices are endless yet any choice is still as you say still in time. This I feel is a hard thing to grasp for most people, most awareness's. What's hard to grasp is for awareness to realize that all (being) all choices are time, just redecorations. For awareness existence needs to be an all inclusive experience. Your right if I choose I must begin all inclusively and grasp the fact that even the chooser is one step into the world of time due to the fact that only a moment ago awareness was caught up in being a husband and a father, an employee of a certain company and such. Can we as awareness before picking up a new avatar drop for a moment even the chooser and become aware that in essence we are giving birth to the sense of choice where there is no choice before the chooser is born through our identification and purchase/buy-in to one. In other words your right it does not matter which door we pick, door one door two or any door leading to a new life, a new structure. All doors are just different decorations of time, different life styles. I am trying to say something and I am having trouble wording it. Here goes:

For awareness which is you and me there is no choice and no chooser, no self till time as self is bought into buy you the awareness. "Raise one particle of dust and the whole world appears". The first particle of dust is the chooser, where did this chooser come from? Then air? Yes it was never born, rather it just came into being by the observer/awareness giving something extra to its self other then just being the observer, in which case we have the observer is the observed. But when awareness picks up something extra it has picked up the duality of the observer is separate from the observed. I probably made a mess out of my explanation :) I am not trying to be an authority, no way. I am just trying to share with an old friend my state of seeing our human condition as awareness:)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

max greene wrote: I would say you are right, that with awareness there is only the object and the awareness of the object. There is no entity who is aware.

Hi Max

Yes, awareness stripped free of everything extra, no false unconscious accumulations of identity added. Maybe this is the point you and I part Max, lets see :) I feel awareness coming upon its original face (timelessness) as the Buddhist would call it has the opportunity to remain free of time an accumulated identity and an accumulated personal life, or it can go forward with accumulating a persona if just for fun, play. If it goes forward as in my reply to Tom it must do so all inclusively which is very much different then the way it has gone forward in the past. In the past awareness has accumulated unconsciously, blindly, dualistically. In doing so the avatar was rigid, concrete, unforgiving, Hitlers, Stalin's, Po Pot's. But what happens when we go forward all inclusive where war becomes a reflection of our inward condition? When we say look at the mess the world is in and we understand that we must look within and nowhere else to cleanup this mess. To understand and full grasp that even though there is really no one to step out of the mess of our accumulated creations awareness can no longer be in it. My old friend will most likely say: "Then why even pickup time?" That is like asking a wizard to never pickup his wand. Why? for the fun of it. It least we are no longer blind men and women waving a stick and wondering why all the commotion. We have seen the relationship between the stick and the creation of time.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Tom Paine wrote: Can you explain a bit further how you see this conditioning as being "an identification with time"? And how you see it as 'optional'?

Tom

Let me first say I wish I had your gift of writing so clear and precise :) Yes what you wrote about conditioning is how it is seen here also. I do not separate time and conditioning being that the world of psychological time has made the map of our world but its not the territory.

I see our conditioning being responsible for our unconscious and sometimes conscious identification with time, psychological time. Often when we feel we are awakening to the truth of our existence we feel we have seen all the conditioning acting upon us as the awareness. I say if there is even one unconscious identification that is enough to completely blind us. Its not that seeing most of our conditioning is not liberating, punching holes in the wall blinding us. It is just one unconscious identification is enough to keep us (awareness) hostage to a particular dream. Take for example a very primal conditioned identification of what humans are. Most of us as the awareness just jump over these basic existential conditionings. We begin our journey to understand ourselves from within the structure of a dream already forged from our conditioning. This is what I mean when I say our identification with time. We begin in time by already being unconsciously identified with that which is made of time, our avatar self.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Patricia Hemingway wrote: K: To be aware of what is and not escape into fanciful illusion is the beginning of understanding.

Hi Patricia

The quote by you is a wonderful quote. It does leave open to our error, our interpretation of where the escaping has began. I say the escaping begins the moment time/conditioning has acted upon us as (awareness) unconsciously. When we come upon all of our being is a creation of psychological time and we as the awareness no longer escape within one dream or another but sit in peace, have we not come upon the understanding Krishnamurti spoke of?

Hasn't the "what is" been that we have been divided, conflicted, escaping because we have yet to now realized that we have been intoxicated by a dream that we are more then awareness in this present moment? As awareness there is no place to go and no one to get there. From within the dreams of psychological time we are persons in a terrifying world of our own creation and everyone is out to get us and there is no place to go. Accept: Out!

Krishnamurti "Its not that someone steps out of it, it is the mind is no longer in it".

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Tom Paine wrote: Sorry if I'm a little 'dense', but I still don't see how you are bringing time into this. Do you mean past experience as conditioning?

No, sorry Tom, it is most likely me who is dense in the way I am using time. I speak of time like I speak of the boarders of a dream. Time to me is what our awake dream is made of. It is all the conceptualized structures responsible for creating our day time dream keeping us asleep while we are so called awake. I would call day dreaming a time trip when we have left the reality of the present moment (physical reality) and went into a world that only exist between our ears. Is there a world that exist outside of between our ears? Yes and no, I say it is unknowable, a cosmic soup of the unknown, but it is the dust we wave our conceptual wands over bringing it into the realm of the known. This is why I say there is no knowable world separate from us as the awareness. If this is so we should take full responsibility for any fix we find ourselves in being the boundaries of the knowable world is held in place by our fixation to their truth. A good place to start for this man is:

"From the first not a thing is"

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 22 Feb 2016
Topic: When the mind truly sees itself, it dissolves.

Clive Elwell wrote: Is identification this “something extra” you refer to?

Hi Clive

Yes, identification is to me considered the extra. Extra to our original state as awareness which to me is timeless. We are originally without time, without an accumulated identity and with that being so originally free of the influence of time. Clive to me time is neutral, nether good or bad. What makes time bad to these eyes is when we as awareness accumulate it unconsciously and become subject to its influences unconsciously. Most here disagree with me but I feel time is a tool which when in the hands of an awakened being becomes the material in which they can express their creative abilities. It can be used for evil things or helpful things. In the hands of an awakened being/awareness it could never be used for evil things due to the fact an awaked being fully understands that the outer world is a reflection of their inward condition.

Take for an example how most people under the spell of unconscious time as an influence upon them may think they have a particular problem they must solve. They look for an antidote for their problem within time because their problem is within time. We have all been or seen these people, their bodies are here but their attention is upon their dream problem. To me Krishnamurti spoke and used time to defeat the influence of unconscious time upon his fellow man. I don't think Krishnamurti wanted to end us using time, I sense he wanted to end time using us. I feel he wanted to right the cart and the horse putting them back in the proper positions. Could this be the fork in the road Krishnamurti spoke of? Allowing time to control awareness instead of awareness using time?

Using time for (good) is to me: any time we use it with creator and creation being one. If it is using it to help ones fellow man out of an unconscious dream responsible for keeping ones fellow man from leading an awakened life that is pretty good :) It is also solving the problem of mans present condition at its root and not just redecorating the dream land of time.

Clive one thing I mentioned but it is worth mentioning again. As seen here awakening and goodwill toward this world and all beings is inseparable. You just can't find unenlightened intension, poor motives coming from an awakened awareness. I sense motive for actions come from one of two states of mind. One state unconscious of the influence of time and the other conscious of the influence of time. Conscious and one will do nothing without the knowledge that when it comes to our world creator and creation are one. Maybe a selfish reason for not doing evil :)

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 22 Feb 2016
Topic: At the heart of giving...

Hi Mina

Just wanted to say I understood your shared message. I also wanted to share something that popped in this mind.

You have the beggar in the street and a man maybe in the Mercedes with his windows rolled up. Unbeknown to both of them is that they maybe have a lot in common. Both maybe crippled by psychological time. The beggar it maybe keeping him or her from a roof and a warm meal he or she can depend on and the Mercedes driver from resting for even a moment just in case he or she may loose what a conditioned mind would only give up so much for. Of course the beggar and the Mercedes drive both could be awakened and each reaching their acquired positions without must effort. I guess each of us through honest introspection can answer this for ourselves. I wonder if we will act upon what we see, find out :) I think we all here do a little of each, answer/ignore.

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 24 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Patricia Hemingway wrote: And technically - what is that ground?

Isn't the ground that Krishnamurti spoke of without a single sentient being? What I mean is this: Even though Krishnamurti wanted to set man/women unconditional free isn't it also true that there isn't not even one self to set free.

Patricia you maybe right, I maybe one of these people who is missing Krishnamurti's point all together. What I get out of my understanding is we are all making one life long mistake and passing it through conditioning from one generation to another. It is my understanding that the mistake is: There is no self. No self in the way of an entity which can become and to get better and better over chronological time. Isn't this the fundamental mistake we are all doing? We all take the sense of self we feel, have been conditioned to identify with as an entity that is worth pouring all our and everyone else's energy into.

There is an old Buddhist saying: "It does not matter how much you polish a tile it will never become a jewel".

This tells me that it does not matter how much I attempt to polish myself that I will never become a jewel. Why? To these eyes it is because I am polishing thin air, nothing real, only an illusion. Not the territory but a map. If this is so what am I? To me that sense within that says "what am I" or "I am" is about the only honest thing we can say about ourselves. Pure presence, the presence of awareness. Anything extra is the dawn and the birth of time for us. The fork in the road Krishnamurti pointed toward. It is the moment where time is used by us or we can be used by the unconscious accumulation of psychological time.

Of course feel free to skip over my reply if you do not see its relevance. It is just that there is a sense here that if you or anyone skips the fact that the self of time does not exist outside of its dimension (psychological time). I fear one will cast away this human life identifying with a single creation instead of coming upon one is part of the creator when identified with self, and is the creator when self is but a creation.

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 24 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Patricia Hemingway wrote: But nobody has done it.

How can the self that is Psychological time do it? How can it be that which is responsible for the self's creation and its duration through conscious or unconscious buy-in? What is more real the dreamer or the dream? If the dream self says I have done it, has awakened would that be a fact? But if you as the awareness awakens from being the dream self it has been done, at least for the moment.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Dan McDermott wrote: "Where the 'self' is, the 'Other' is not."

Yes, Or at least the other is under the spell of being unconscious of the presence of psychological time.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

max greene wrote: And this is why I say that zombies are in control of the world.

Scary fact isn't Max. Sometimes I'm a zombie to :( LOL.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Patricia Hemingway wrote: George - there is no 'you as awareness'.

Yes this is true. But there is awareness which is responsible for the sense of presence, the sense of "I am" coming from within the human body. I would agree that this awareness in its original state is without an accumulated identity, is without a persona to identify with. Just sense for a moment this awareness in its original state is unconditionally free being it is without the boundaries imposed by the accumulation of psychological time.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Sudhir Sharma wrote: One understands from your quote above that there is a dreamer, the dream state of self and awakening. Let us leave the 'dreamer' aside for the moment and consider the relationship between the self, the central entity ruling the dream state, and awakening.

What makes the transformation of former state in to later possible?

When/where/at what point the darkness ends and light shines?

Ah my old friend :) Behind the moon the sun shines. In these eyes awareness/sun has identified so completely with its ego/self it does not know its original innocence of timelessness, being without time. In listening to Krishnamurti and a few other awakened teachers one can get the sense that they are attempting to reach over, jump over, our accumulated knowledge now holding us in the bondage of psychological time. The problem seems to be as Krishnamurti pointed out here in my words: The unconscious presence of accumulated knowledge acting as an authority is keeping awareness as man from being unconditionally free.

As your aware there could be many different reasons why an awareness may wakeup from its present identification with time. Just to mention one is a total mental break down through some form of stressful event (one is shattered). Another is through never accumulating one through the understanding at an early age through great leadership. Very difficult, maybe impossible but isn't this the idea behind the schools founded through Krishnamurti like Ojai. For most of us it was something that we heard or seen that triggered a deeper enquiry into the nature of self and took us down the empting road of negation. Along this road the wall off our shell has been cracked, holes have been punched through letting through a light that some how we can't resist. Low and behold the day we find out that what was looking in was the same eyes that was looking out. Isn't that the day we find out that the journey all though necessary was a journey without distance, a journey of finding out psychological time was the distance and it was only a matter of awakening up to the self being played was only but one of countless possible identifications. Sudhir, where I part with many here is I feel when awareness awakens to the nature of psychological time and time in general it can use time instead of time using it. Krishnamurti used time, it just didn't use him. He treated it as if it was a snake in a room with him, he understood its nature like we understand the nature of fire. Fire can be a great destroyer or it can give us warmth and cook our food. I say I am George as an address, I am using the education of writing to communicated with Sudhir your address. Yet I know Sudhir and myself are both so much more and so much less. I would not put such a dear friend in a conceptual box as to who and what he is. I know at his heart Sudhir and all my friends are limitless.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 25 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Sudhir Sharma wrote: All actions (life is action in relationships) take time the length of which is always affecting their usefulness as in "a stitch in time saves nine". :)

That is a very good expression. Would you say a stitch in time becomes nine when it is not shed after its use? Isn't that what happened? Man our ancestors began with what may have been good intentions crawling out of darkness on the back of time but soon forgot the world of his creation both subject and object was not separate from him. Soon he became unquestionably the accumulated self and the problems which only exist in relationship to his time bound self persona. Sure the psychologically naked man has his problems of putting a roof over his head and food to eat but I sense you would agree that the man well involved with psychological time spends most of his energy in keeping up the image, projecting and protecting. Which one of us have not fallen pray to this form of behavior. Even when alert one can find ones self under its spell. He he he :) Who is under its spell? Yes the spell creeps in the moment we have a self under the spell. That is the beauty of unconditional freedom:

"From the first not a thing is" No problem and no problem solver in the area of a psychological self. To abide unborn to time or conscious of the presence of time is to this man using time and then shedding it when it is no longer necessary in its present particular form. You put on your occupational psychological cloths and that of being a husband and a father and yet you also know that below these cloths you are the perpetual unborn presence of awareness which resides in the human body.

My old friend may say as long as there is a motive, a chooser the self is there. Yes but we are capable of knowing this and from an existential point of view understanding that this identification is the horse we are presently riding out of the darkness called the unknown. Through identification we have just invented ourselves and entered the world of form. A pretty cool by the formless :) That which has no form outside of being a quality of awareness is going to borrow a form through identification to express its self. You say your Sudhir :)

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 26 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Sudhir Sharma wrote: Do you mind having another look at "identification" in the statement "borrow a form through identification", George?

Does awareness need to borrow identification or identify itself with anything to express itself?

Is it not the flame that burns all identification/conditioning centered around self/I?

I understand what your saying about the whole problem for awareness has been false identifications. It is just the sense here that the problems of time disappear when psychological time is used by awareness rather then time using awareness. I read once to exist means to stand out. Awareness having no attributes other then the quality of object awareness has no recognizable subject. Taking on an identification such as name and identification with occupation and family status is just a few ways awareness uses identification to stand out. Why does it need to stand out? In standing out it acquires a psychological address as to who it is and its understanding of this human life. Most often the problem is beyond name, we become to fixed concrete and our current understanding looses its flexibility to incorporate new understandings leaving behind old an incomplete understandings. We as the awareness become so fixed in our beliefs and understanding when they are challenge we feel that our very existence is challenged. We have lost sight that even without a single belief or understanding we as the awareness still exist, we still are. As seen here the problem lies in unconsciousness. We have become unconscious of our true nature that of being unassociated awareness as our essence and have because of this have identified with our bundle of understanding and beliefs, the reason we defend them till physical death. How many soldiers and for that matter civilians have died defending ideology? Theres a reason for this and I am pointing out that it is taking ones beliefsand understandings as to being our actual self's.

Sudhir, let me attempt to be open and hear what your saying so I do not fall pray to what I am talking about above.

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 26 Feb 2016
Topic: To understand the ground.........

Patricia, Sudhir and all.

Isn't the reason that there is no path possible to the truth because the truth lies outside any dimension of time, outside of any manufactured human idea of themselves and the world they live in. Krishnamurti pointed out that his message laid between the lines of his speaking and not so much in the words themselves, not directly anyways. Was this because he was speaking about how we have created a story about ourselves and our world and he was speaking of being unconditionally free from any such stories? At least free enough that we could walk in and out of the world of stories as he did. He understood the limitations imposed upon ourselves through our unconsciousness conditioning and blind acceptance of the world of time. Yet he entered our world of psychological time to speak to us and spoke of another world, our original world where we began life free from the unconscious influence of time. For the most part most if not all of us could not see the world he spoke of because the first thing we do is listen through the filters of psychological time unconsciously imposed upon us. If I am correct he said in my words: Your out! out of psychological time that is. There is no slow ever increasing way to step out though negation of time seems to be a doorway to come upon our original timelessness. So what I see here is any path implies the very psychological time Krishnamurti warned to be the beginning of a dream state. So what lays between the lines of Krishnamurti's message? As to the dreams of psychological time Krishnamurti's "I don't mind" comes to mind :) He does not take the bait of any dream and become involved as if it exist separate from his buy-in. So he is free to walk in and out as he pleases. He is a master of time instead of time being a master of him.

PS doesn't the ground lie between our born and unborn natures of being awareness. Is that the between the lines Krishnamurti spoke of? Born or unborn to the accumulation of time and identity.

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 14 Mar 2016
Topic: "The 'I' is non-existent without memory. . . ."

max greene wrote: There is no entity with awareness, and awareness is life. The human being is a physical body together with awareness.

Hi Max

How is my old friend? I am yet to rest this sense I have and maybe never know the answer to. Can and does awareness exist both without memory and the physical body? We know awareness exist with the ever changing content of consciousness but does it exist even free of content? I sense it does, or at least an awareness unassociated with the accumulation psychological time can know its self in a few different ways. Take for example: I know myself as the awareness in this particular body as being the sense of "I am". Not "I am" anything but only "I am" the awareness residing as a quality in this particular body. I am also aware that any accumulation of identity beyond (I am the awareness) is for the lack of better words a (Time body) its a map but not the territory. That being said, this means not one of us were ever born in the conventional sense. Ether we were the awareness that took up residence in the human body because conditions were right or because conditions were right awareness came into being. Ether way it would seem that there is no such thing as birth when it comes to the self. The self comes into being, the self of accumulated time that is, after the human body is birthed.

So I leave you with my parting question: Is awareness always ( eternal ) and takes up residency in a sentient entity such as a human body using its doorways of inputs. Or does awareness come into being when conditional are right such as with the appearance of the human body?

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 17 Mar 2016
Topic: "The 'I' is non-existent without memory. . . ."

max greene wrote: Awareness is just a matter of course whenever sensing capacity and capability in any living being has been sufficiently developed through evolution.

Hi Max, sorry for the delay. Personal things :) I know there is the sense here that awareness may exist before any doorways of inputs are in place. Its as if awareness is the most early thing in the sense that it must be present earlier then sense inputs to be there to greet the inputs from the senses. Sounds like duality but is it? Awareness maybe there prior to any of the senses but like light which doesn't light up a room without boundaries such as walls, ceiling and floor, awareness is not recognizable separate from its quality of illumination of sense inputs. But is it still there ready to illuminate. Does it create the reflection, the echo of stimulation which without awareness acting as a wall sense inputs would meet no target for reflection, illumination, and keep on going. Like light when it strikes nothing. I maybe off track it is I just found all this interesting to investigate. Maybe awareness is not dependent on an particular stimulation for its existence, yet for it to be seen its must be at work and that is dependent on external inputs. So is awareness both independent ( most earliest thing ) and depend in the sense that it cannot be seen like light separate from its work of illumination. Maybe this is all to speculative, yet I just wanted to share my pondering.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 17 Mar 2016
Topic: "The 'I' is non-existent without memory. . . ."

Juan Eyegaray wrote: My question then, is (and it is related somehow to my first question above): has awareness to be seen which would imply a 'seer' different from what is 'seen' or awareness is seeing in itself independently if there's someone 'seeing'?

Hi Juan

I wonder if like experiments that were done in the 1950's and 1960's most likely even now if in complete deprivation of all outer stimulation if awareness is present awaiting stimulation. I can cover my ears and I am still here. I can close my eyes and I am still here, and so it goes with the other senses. Unlike the experiments in the 50's and 60's through negation the accumulated self can be negated through seeing its illusion and transcending it. This presence that is transcending physical stimulation through shutting them off in an experiment and negating the accumulated self through seeing the falseness of such accumulation is that awareness along with its innate intelligence? You mentioned for awareness to be seen it would require the presence of a separate seer. I also wonder if awareness which to this man is in its true nature formless and psychologically timeless intuits its presence by feeling/seeing its own action of illumination. Not to get to speculative again but it seems to this man that a quality of awareness outside of illumination is intelligence, its ability to read between the lines and discover such things as seeing the unseeable such as its timeless self. Is it not awareness that has negated all that its not ( the accumulated self ) and has come upon that even stripped of all identifications and stimulus inputs it is still there/here.

To go way out Juan, I think the God image has risen from a mistake, a false projection by awareness of its own formless presence. Picture the God image, picture that it is said to be there from the beginning, that it always was, unborn, a formless presence. I get this strange sense that this projection from man, of God, has risen from his own identity as the presence of awareness. His projection gets hijacked through the filters of his conditioning, the many false identifications and a God and a religion is born. He now worships something outside himself which is really his own self projection. What is really happening if I am right is he is getting hints, footprints to follow along the road of negation to come upon his own true identity as being the timeless/formless presence of awareness within.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 17 Mar 2016
Topic: "The 'I' is non-existent without memory. . . ."

max greene wrote: So what are the "right circumstances"? Could this be evolution itself, the unrolling of the present? Life, which is love and awareness, is inevitable with the flowering of the present.

Hi Max

"The right circumstances" I have mentioned before about awareness and its intelligence being in essence the embodiment of (mother nature) under another name. Has nature and its awareness/intelligence found away through evolutions to see its self in a non-dualistic universe? Again here we are speaking of creator and creation being one yet for nature to see its self in a non-dualistic environment it had to play a trick, it had to bend the reality of one (non-duality) into the duality of subject object, the seer and the seen. Hasn't our journey been to come upon this seeing, this understanding so we can maintain the seeing of ones self as the (observer is the observed) and yet cast out the conflict duality created which allowed us to see ourselves as one. Maybe I am taking this to far but I am trying to explain to myself and now you and Juan how nature gave birth to its own eyes through duality in order to see its self in a non-dualistic world. Since the duality was false, not true, (Krishnamurti's pointer towards man's conflict) was the outcome of creating this anomaly of illusion. Yet I must say it was intelligence in action when nature caused the blind to see (its self). Just some more enquiry into the essence of our shared nature and why we are all one with each other and everything :)

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 18 Mar 2016
Topic: "The 'I' is non-existent without memory. . . ."

Juan Eyegaray wrote: You'll tell me something if you read it

Thank you for your very interesting and thought provoking reply, and yes I will try in the near future to read the book you recommended. I always enjoy a new take on things even if it is as you say the same as what K said and the Buddhist, I like a new way of hearing it :) Take care and hope to exchange again. You sound very well read.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 07 Sep 2017
Topic: Why don't we give our whole heart, mind, to the inquiry? .......

"Why we do not give our whole heart to enquiry?"

The more we enquire the more we come upon the fact that all enquiry if it does not spring from the unborn mind and return to an unborn mind leads the mind into the world of conceptual reality. It takes the mind on a journey of selfhood. As long as that is kept in mind one foot is kept in the grave, a good thing since we are not who we (think) we are. More so the intuition here is we are the unlimited original formless potential that has the potential to take form and not one of the countless manifestations it has produced.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 07 Sep 2017
Topic: Why don't we give our whole heart, mind, to the inquiry? .......

I understand what your saying. There is also great power in doing nothing being anything we do is giving reality to just one out of countless possible manifestations we can project. At least if we understand that truth is a pathless land then at least we begin from the point of view that we are creating our own world view, the observer is the observer. Long time no see dan.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 07 Sep 2017
Topic: Why don't we give our whole heart, mind, to the inquiry? .......

I understand what your saying. There is also great power in doing nothing being anything we do is giving reality to just one out of countless possible manifestations we can project. At least if we understand that truth is a pathless land then at least we begin from the point of view that we are creating our own world view, the observer is the observed. Long time no see dan.