Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Awareness in our world today | moderated by Krishnan Srinivasan

Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage

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Tue, 29 Sep 2009 #1
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Todays news from Jammu in India.six armed muslim terrorists took hostage of a family and wanted to abduct the girl of the house for sexual slavery.The parents were beaten up when they resisted it.The girl,on seeing the father being beaten, bounced upon one of the terrorists and took his gun and shot at him.The injured terrorists ran for thei lives. Under total panic and fear, the girl was aware and used all her wits and pulled up her courage and acted immediately. Action born out of impending danger is propmpted by the fear of the danger itself. Action springs forth from total awreness.... any comments.....

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 14 Oct 2009 #2
Thumb_untitled Dionny T United States 1 post in this forum Offline

first of all good for her, on the face of danger, i think we react, like animals in the jungle, our courage comes out. good for her. thats what we need more courage in this world. courage to actually do stand up to fear and racism and war... we are all cowards .

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Wed, 14 Oct 2009 #3
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dionny T wrote:
thats what we need more courage in this world. courage to actually do stand up to fear and racism and war... we are all cowards .

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 14 Oct 2009 #4
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Yes Courage we need. We let things go by.Especially in the modern day world, where apathy, negligence and sloth flourish along with selfishness. To raise above with courage and compassion it requires sensitivity and intelligence . Look at the meaningless wars.......Look at the poverty, misery, and neglect. We neglect our own bodies... why to talk about the MIND?...

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 15 Oct 2009 #5
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

If MINDS are functioning normally, there won't be any problem. It looks after the body also as well. isn't it?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Fri, 16 Oct 2009 #6
Thumb_avatar Paul Lanzon United Kingdom 24 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, when mind is right the body is light. It's funny in a way to speak of these two as though they were unacquainted with one another. Negative thoughts can harm the body and make it feel heavy; affirmative thoughts can revive it.

I don't know whether that girl acted from complete awareness or not, but it was certainly a very brave thing she did. Perhaps it was the response of outrage which temporarily overrides fear and gives a powerful boost of energy - perhaps she had a stronger survival instinct than usual - who knows.

Just a thought: would K have commended this action? Or, like Buddha and Christ would he turn the other cheek? This is a tremendous problem for some; not many have the capacity to turn the other cheek - that takes even greater courage than to face an armed enemy - that takes complete fearlessness, which may be just a by-product of Love, Metta in its highest manifestation. But then, I have to ask, if you would protect another from harm why would you not do the same for yourself since you are another and he is you. Oh dear, words are so easy, so delusive - so seemingly brave. It's so true, most of us lack courage.

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Sat, 17 Oct 2009 #7
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Lanzon wrote:
Yes, when mind is right the body is light. It's funny in a way to speak of these two as though they were unacquainted with one another. Negative thoughts can harm the body and make it feel heavy; affirmative thoughts can revive it.>

But, thoughts aren't always voluntary. All involuntary thoughts are motivated by insecurity, caused by fragmentation.

Just a thought: would K have commended this action? Or, like Buddha and Christ would he turn the other cheek?>

I think, K never sought to appreciate or depreciate. He seems to have said that a mere conflict-less action is natural or unmotivated.

This is a tremendous problem for some; not many have the capacity to turn the other cheek - that takes even greater courage than to face an armed enemy - that takes complete fearlessness, which may be just a by-product of Love, Metta in its highest manifestation. >

Perhaps the absence of motivated retaliation is the basic feature of response of intelligence. Some may have turned the other cheek, others may have tried to convince the attacker, as in the case of Buddha talking to Angulimala. However, irrespective of the levels of response, what may be noteworthy is that insecurity isn't motivating the response. And as long as intelligence or awareness is guiding its own response, its quantity and quality are optimum, so as to merely end the situation, and not to provoke or precipitate or prolong the situation further.

But then, I have to ask, if you would protect another from harm why would you not do the same for yourself since you are another and he is you. Oh dear, words are so easy, so delusive - so seemingly brave. It's so true, most of us lack courage.>

All great men tried to liberate mankind from misery, but not from death or pain. Misery happens to be unnatural and avoidable and obviously when one is free from sorrow, one can easily face not only pain or death but any situation, because a fearless mind is a single mind. Most of us lack courage, because of fragmentation.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sat, 17 Oct 2009 #8
Thumb_avatar Paul Lanzon United Kingdom 24 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
All great men tried to liberate mankind from misery, but not from death or pain. Misery happens to be unnatural and avoidable and obviously when one is free from sorrow, one can easily face not only pain or death but any situation, because a fearless mind is a single mind. Most of us lack courage, because of fragmentation.

This is all very true and well-said. But I wonder why misery, sorrow etc., are unnatural; aren't they the logical outcome of fragmentation? When something is not functioning properly certain bizarre things happen, but they are natural in relation to the malfunction. True they are unnatural in relation to the unfragmented mind. Just a very trivial nit-picking point.

Prasanna P wrote:
All great men tried to liberate mankind from misery, but not from death or pain. Misery happens to be unnatural and avoidable and obviously when one is free from sorrow, one can easily face not only pain or death but any situation, because a fearless mind is a single mind. Most of us lack courage, because of fragmentation.

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Sun, 18 Oct 2009 #9
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

True. But does this conclusion end the misery ? The fact is not only the misery, but also that the unfragmented consciousness is generally aware of its bondage to something. Hence, it is trying to become free from the influence and domination of that fragmented part. What do you think?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sun, 18 Oct 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar Paul Lanzon United Kingdom 24 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
True. But does this conclusion end the misery ? The fact is not only the misery, but also that the unfragmented consciousness is generally aware of its bondage to something. Hence, it is trying to become free from the influence and domination of that fragmented part. What do you think?

I wasn't intending to make any conclusion there. Doesn't the misery rest upon the belief and identification with the ego? which is a kind of perpetual hunger to become. I am not sure that the unfragmented consciousness could be in bondage. Perhaps to a very minor extent, but then that would be only a partially unfragmented mind. Do you mean in moments of insight you see the bondage? I guess that would be true, but the insight must be all-embracing. And that habit-energy is not going to disappear without persistent attention - but no strained effort.

The effort to free oneself from the fragmentation is only to strenthen it - it would be better to stay with the fragmentation and just be aware of the processes going on - not to be too concerned about any outcome.

This post was last updated by Paul Lanzon Sun, 18 Oct 2009.

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Sun, 18 Oct 2009 #11
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
The girl,on seeing the father being beaten, bounced upon one of the terrorists and took his gun and shot at him.

Don't confuse a talent for bouncing with courage. If she'd pounced on him, the terrorist would have shot her immediately, but her bouncing act so surprised him that she grabbed his gun and shot at him, which is a nice way of saying she missed. Anyway, it's a good story.

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Sun, 18 Oct 2009 #12
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Lanzon wrote:
When something is not functioning properly certain bizarre things happen, but they are natural in relation to the malfunction. True they are unnatural in relation to the unfragmented mind. Just a very trivial nit-picking point.

Actually, it's an excellent point. The fragmented mind knows nothing about the "unfragmented mind", so it really has no business speaking of or trying to imagine such a thing. The fragmented mind is malfunction, and when it's interested in its own movement, the last thing it does is bring in the idea of its opposite.

This post was last updated by nick carter (account deleted) Sun, 18 Oct 2009.

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Sun, 18 Oct 2009 #13
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dionny T wrote:
first of all good for her, on the face of danger, i think we react, like animals in the jungle, our courage comes out. good for her. thats what we need more courage in this world. courage to actually do stand up to fear and racism and war... we are all cowards .

Some of us are too afraid to use caps.

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Mon, 19 Oct 2009 #14
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Lanzon: Doesn't the misery rest upon the belief and identification with the ego? >
Pras: Paul, I am going look at this issue with lesser amount of terminology and intellectual exercise. Please don't hesitate to point out, where I am not clear.

Yes. Whatever it may rest upon, the fact remains that the misery is the perception of free consciousness. Further, that perception is of the 'restless, imbalanced, distorted, disturbed or abnormal state' of its own fragmented part'. Generally misery is seen only when a new situation is being perceived, as entire consciousness has to attend to it, but a part of it is fragmented and working 'not in sync' with the basic, original or the free part.

PL: ....which is a kind of perpetual hunger to become.>

Pras: Yes. As long as there is this 'misery' or the 'restlessness' in perception, there is this perpetual hunger to become free from it.

PL: The effort to free oneself from the fragmentation is only to strengthen it ->
Pras: Intellectual exercises can only become a habit, since diversion, pleasure or escape from misery are only temporary. Intellectual exercises can't alter the level of fragmentation, because they are mere indulgence of consciousness in memory.

It depends on what exactly you mean by effort. Generally effort involves utilisation of energy. If the consciousness merely indulges in intellectual exercises, then obviously it is of no use, because it can't bring a change in its own basic structure.

There is no effort or utilisation of energy in what I am saying. It is the free consciousness effortlessly or silently observing the 'pressure on it by the fragmented part'. It is the 'seriousness' that triggers mutation or a change in the basic structure of consciousness to its normal or natural state. It consequently results in conflictless perception and responses.

PL: it would be better to stay with the fragmentation and just be aware of the processes going on - not to be too concerned about any outcome.>

Pras: I am also meaning the same, but may be with words that are different from K. If I can emphasise it, it should be 'totally unconcerned' with idea of outcome.

PL: I am not sure that the unfragmented consciousness could be in bondage. >

Pras: The awareness, perception and responses are the function of the free consciousness. The awareness of the bondage, influence, domination or pressure by its own fragmented part is perceived by free consciousness. It is very subtle, because almost always an external cause is blamed for the perception of misery.

PL: Perhaps to a very minor extent, but then that would be only a partially unfragmented mind.>

Pras: Total bondage doesn't even call for any remedy. It can only be partial, but this is in a very vast spectrum, because consciousness in whole mankind is fragmented in a vast range, causing a hierarchy of intelligence (see TFI) with least fragmented minds at the top and most fragmented ones at the bottom of it. Visible financial hierarchy in the world should not be mistaken for it, though in a few areas they may overlap.

My observations at some places could appear to be slightly different from that of K. He generalised that people are either completely free or not at all free and there is nothing in between. It is like 'all or none' principle. This won't explain, why there is such a vast difference in levels of understanding in various people.

PL: Do you mean in moments of insight you see the bondage? I guess that would be true, but the insight must be all-embracing. And that habit-energy is not going to disappear without persistent attention - but no strained effort.>

Pras: I don't think it is impossible to see our bondage. Identify what you are doing regularly or habitually for pleasure or for diversion. Deny or stop doing that for a day or even few days. The misery arises soon possibly even with anger.

Insight means to me the clarity in that particular situation. There is no possibility of insight in an intellectual area where the bondage is evident.

nick carter: Actually, it's an excellent point. The fragmented mind knows nothing about the "unfragmented mind", so it really has no business speaking of or trying to imagine such a thing. The fragmented mind is malfunction, and when it's interested in its own movement, the last thing it does is bring in the idea of its opposite.>

Pras: If it is so, can you tell us then why are we here?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Mon, 19 Oct 2009 #15
Thumb_avatar Paul Lanzon United Kingdom 24 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
My observations at some places could appear to be slightly different from that of K. He generalised that people are either completely free or not at all free and there is nothing in between. It is like 'all or none' principle. This won't explain, why there is such a vast difference in levels of understanding in various people.

Yes, I understand what you mean; I think he was sometimes a little too absolute about some things, and too general in others; but perhaps this was the result of his intense and passionate nature which knew no compromise. And also - perhaps it might be relevant - K's way of exposition was like that of a skilled artist or musician in his delivery of a talk. I often felt, after a talk, as though I'd just heard a masterwork. And this may give some hint as to why some of his 'themes' were uncompromising. There is a certain lack of tolerance, sometimes, but I believe K didn't have much time for that particular concept, as with most others.

Ultimately I have to say that I have not myself witnessed such a vast difference in understanding in the various people I have encountered throughout my years. Yes, certainly in degrees of intellectual understanding, but not in the 'big matter' that was the theme of K's talks. I have met one person who had apparently swallowed all of K's books and videos and knew more about his teaching than k himself. But the moment he opened his mouth I could see he had considerably less insight than my neighbour's cat.

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Mon, 19 Oct 2009 #16
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
nick carter: The fragmented mind knows nothing about the "unfragmented mind", so it really has no business speaking of or trying to imagine such a thing. The fragmented mind is malfunction, and when it's interested in its own movement, the last thing it does is bring in the idea of its opposite.>
Pras: If it is so, can you tell us then why are we here?

We are here to talk about the fragmentation that we are because it's all we know. The "unfragmented mind" is just an idea, a concept, to the fragmented mind, so what can it have to say that is not speculation, imagination?

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Tue, 20 Oct 2009 #17
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
We are here to talk about the fragmentation that we are because it's all we know. The "unfragmented mind" is just an idea, a concept, to the fragmented mind, so what can it have to say that is not speculation, imagination?>

'Un-fragmented mind' may be a newly coined word. But it is merely the opposite of the fragmented mind. Both are among the contents of knowledge. But realization of 'fragmentation' leads to defragmentation. Because the realizer is original, natural, dynamic and indomitable.

Fragmented part is static, which is the obstacle causing hazy and inaccurate perception. The extra ordinary characteristic of the human consciousness, is that the original unfragmented part can regain its lost or dominated 'territory' (of course it is energy, and not land) and become one or whole.

Present effort to get rid of the obstacle is amounting to feeding energy to both parts, thus continuing the status quo. Total seriousness or focused attention or dereliction, leads to the annihilation of the obstacle.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Tue, 20 Oct 2009.

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Tue, 20 Oct 2009 #18
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sorry, but I speak neither Gibberish nor Gobbledegook.

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Wed, 21 Oct 2009 #19
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Krishnan, One could describe the girls action as a selfless act of love, could one not? Sorry to quote another holy man, but in the bible Jesus is quoted as saying," Man,or woman for that matter, has no greater love than this, to lay down his, or her life for another.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Wed, 21 Oct 2009 #20
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Yes it is appropriate to term it like that. But then how many of us ever experience such devotion and love at the sametime to our own families... the families are disrupted by self-centered ambitious activities of individuals ending in sorrow, deprivation and isolation.When there is no love, other things take root in the heart and mind of the individual.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 21 Oct 2009 #21
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 5 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Lanzon wrote:
Prasanna P wrote: My observations at some places could appear to be slightly different from that of K. He generalised that people are either completely free or not at all free and there is nothing in between. It is like 'all or none' principle. This won't explain, why there is such a vast difference in levels of understanding in various people.
Hi Prasanna. In fact K did say on more that one occasion that a person could be partially unconditioned, It seems though he was interested in our seeing the conditioning in it,s totality . Being as he frequently stated, impossible for the fragment to perceive the whole.It may be worthwhile to note that K also said that to be aware, or completely attentive all the time was not possible, which may explain why there seems to be differences in levels of awareness.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 22 Oct 2009 #22
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Lanzon wrote:
Being as he frequently stated, impossible for the fragment to perceive the whole.>

This point is worth examining. It means two things. Firstly, the fragmented mind can never perceive the whole, since we are fragmented, it ends the discussion and we may go home. Secondly, the fragmented mind may have to become unfragmented in order to perceive the whole. Soon it raises another query as to 'how?' it can be done. K's response is 'you can't ask this question because, there is no how !!". Then also you may go home. Both ways we are in C-22 like situation.

With due respects to K, my humble finding is that the 'conditioning is knowledge specific'. Let me briefly explain as below.
1. It is the intelligence or consciousness that is getting conditioned or bonded, but by specific concepts of knowledge only.
2. It is like voltage fluctuation in power supply, while scanning particular data only. Yet, the problem isn't with data, but with power supply, which is the 'I'.

3. 'fragmentation or conditioning of intelligence isn't same, equal or common in all. It varies from person to person, and further in each person, from one intellectual area to another.

K also said that to be aware, or completely attentive all the time was not possible, which may explain why there seems to be differences in levels of awareness.>

I think the former can't be the reason for the latter. Let us go slow. Being totally aware all the time is nothing but being in meditation for ever. Then there is no usage of memory and hence no thinking and obviously no speech and no interaction between human beings. Man can live and die without misery in 'birth to death' or constant lifelong meditation, by meeting only requirements of life like breathing, eating, sleeping and attending to nature's calls. There are many such sanyasins here and in himalayas, who talk seldom or never. However, I think, it may not amount to fulfillment of one's life. When the intelligence becomes fully aware, it understands itself and the problems facing mankind and the cause for that. Then it is also capable of ending the cause, which is nothing but misery or distorted perception.

Meditating always may be neither necessary nor desirable. What is essential is the ability to meditate when necessary, by volition, by own judgment and that too in challenging or provoking situations, to get the right answer or response. All human problems are multiplying due to un-intelligent, though they are matching responses.

Please note that 'voluntary thinking' is not due to inattention. I don't know, why K didn't like to use this term. According to me, all of us do it quite often, besides involuntary thinking, which of course takes place often due to inattention.

The fact is that presently human attention is divided (in various proportions in various humans) and due to that, the response from usage of memory has become haphazard, mechanical and involuntary. In undivided attention, memory usage will be as necessary and as accurate as possible for ending the situations without traces of ill will, which otherwise motivates further haphazard interactions.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Thu, 22 Oct 2009.

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Fri, 23 Oct 2009 #23
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
With due respects to K, my humble finding is that the 'conditioning is knowledge specific'. Let me briefly explain as below. 1. It is the intelligence or consciousness that is getting conditioned or bonded, but by specific concepts of knowledge only. 2. It is like voltage fluctuation in power supply, while scanning particular data only. Yet, the problem isn't with data, but with power supply, which is the 'I'.
3. 'fragmentation or conditioning of intelligence isn't same, equal or common in all. It varies from person to person, and further in each person, from one intellectual area to another.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 23 Oct 2009 #24
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Prasanna, thanks for the clear explanantion as quoted above by you.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 23 Oct 2009 #25
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Dear Prasanna, thanks for the clear explanation as quoted above by you.>

Thanks, Krish for your generous view. I feel simplifying human psychology is far more vital and essential to mankind than most other works of research that are underway.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sat, 24 Oct 2009 #26
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 23 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:
I feel simplifying human psychology is far more vital and essential to mankind than most other works of research that are underway.

Forget 'simplifying human psychology'. It is a myth - so end it!

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Sat, 24 Oct 2009 #27
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 19 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Forget 'simplifying human psychology'. It is a myth - so end it!

I dont understand, why put an end and what way it is a myth?
gb
ex: The transactional analysis is simple and it solved , made clear many problems.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Sat, 24 Oct 2009.

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Sat, 24 Oct 2009 #28
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Forget 'simplifying human psychology'. It is a myth - so end it!

Hi Pat, it is nice to see you after a long time that we discussed together. You are very senior in K circles and forums and I have great regards to you. When you say something is a myth, you may also explain how it is for others to understand. I agree that Psychology may not have unraveled the human mind so far. Nevertheless its objective isn't lost.

K asked us to use him as a mirror to throw away after use. Until we throw away that mirror, we can't see the reality of K or anything around us. Haven't we made K as a myth, by not seeing the reality of his teachings ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Tue, 03 Nov 2009 #29
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

This young Kasmiri lady has been given a police officer job yesterday as a reward for her bravery and for watching the terrorists in future.Her photo is displayed in indian newspapers.Hope she is not killed in retaliatory violence...

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 #30
Thumb_picture-0008 Jayendran Menon India 2 posts in this forum Offline

I agree that the girl acted with remarkable courage and the situation brought out that extraordinary courage. Was she in a state of total awareness during the act? Was the whole responding through her in that situation? I wonder if the act has brought about any permanent transformation in her. In today's newspaper, i read that she wants a regular job in the CRPF( govt security forces) .

Freedom from the Self is the true function of Man

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