Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The US President, OBAMA & his..

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #181
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
That is so but less poverty here and now though not "perfect" is still good.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #182
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Greg Van Tongeren,
Yes.Robert Browning wrote in one of his peoms:
"Broken arcs on Earth
And Perfect Rounds in the Heaven!"
I have no qualms about it because I surrender it all to the Unknown Will of Everything(one may call GOD).

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #183
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

gv: If self is thought-derived, it can not become anything, right?\

Bob: No, some of us can indeed become free of the bondage of the
thought-derived self, as you put it. Like K accomplished.

gv: I am pointing to something else. The belief that I have
become, or attained or gained something is a more subtle form
of the same confusion is it not? It is the ideation that I was, I am
now and I will be, i.e. it implies psychological time.

===

gv: There may be self-reflection as a habit of thought but that doesn't
mean there is or ever was a self to become transformed or to attain
enlightenment.

Bob: We are the self - the self is us. K said or alluded that self-critical
awareness (self-reflection) was necessary. For instance in order to
"have integrity", " to free the mind of sorrow".

gv: if we only know division, there is no choice but to start there,
to lay a foundation of virtue and order as K put it. Someone says
"don't speak to me of the non-dual. To me that is just an idea. I only
know an on-going sense of ego isolation." So we can ask, is the
observer really separate from the observed? To find out there has
to be awareness or alert presence that is not tied to or entangled
with any content of consciousness.

===

gv: Light does not seek light. It is luminous by its very nature.

Bob: I think we could say light seeks to ignite other lights or is
compelled to do so by its very nature. However are we in fact a light?
Are we a bright shining light? Or does our light flicker at times,
depending on inner or outer circumstances? Can its brightness be
increased? Is our light as bright as K's was? Or perhaps even brighter
than his was?

gv: light is a common analogy that K also used to point. Light
in terms of awareness is independent of thought and motive and
ideation about past or future. In that sense it is timeless.

===

J. K.: Only when the brain has cleansed itself of its conditioning,
greed, envy, ambition, then only it can comprehend that which is
complete. Love is this completeness. (J. K. - 'K's Notebook')
Here K quite simply points out a goal or ideal state of completeness
that can be attained to and the action that's necessary to do so.

gv: K also said that intelligence comes into being when the brain
realizes its limitations. By the brain in this context I understand
he means the brain activity that accounts for thought. That kind
of brain activity is a movement of the past in the present. We
need that obviously but it can only operate with the limited field
of the known which is memory and the response of memory.

The benediction is where you are

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #184
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Now the news at hand:President Obama has lost a loyal supporter and friend, the legendary democratic leader Edward Kennedy has died at the age of 77. A great loss for USA and the world at large.

The "greatest legislator of our time" was finally laid to rest yesterday while the ego-stroking and back-biting goes on and on among his fellow "somebodies," along with the "evil" of their power, wealth, greed, privilege, authority, and success, as K observes below.

"It was a bright, fresh morning and the flowers were splended in their summer colors. Beyond the huge, tall open tower [the Eiffel Tower], the main attraction, passed a funeral procession, the coffin and the hearse covered with flowers, followed by many cars. Even in death we want to be important, to our vanity and pretense there is no end. Everybody wants to be somebody or be associated with someone who is somebody. Power and success, little or great, and recognized. Without recognition they have no meaning, recognized by the many or by the one who is dominated. Power is always respected and so is made respectable. Power is always evil, wielded by the politician or by the saint or by the wife over the husband. However evil it is, everyone craves for it. And that hearse with those gay flowers in the sun seems so far away and even death does not end power because it continues in another. It's the torch of evil that continues from generation to generation. Few can put it aside, widely and freely, without looking back; they have no reward. Reward is success, the halo of recognition. Not to be recognized, failure long forgotten, being nobody when all striving and conflict has ceased, there comes a blessing which is not of the church nor of the gods of man. Children were calling and playing as the hearse passed by, never even looking at it, absorbed in their game and laughter." (J. K. - 'K's Notebook')

"Those who have wealth, position and authority are not happy people. An ambitious man is a most unhappy man. Happiness comes when you are free of all that." (J. K. - 'TOTT')

"The head of any society, church, or religious group who has power over other people is an evil person, because he is controlling, shaping, guiding others without knowing where he himself is going." (J. K. - 'TOTT')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #185
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: interesting that in the above passage K posits a mind to become healthy, sensitive, to become rich with innocence and free of time. See the problem? K speaks often of the illusion of becoming in time and then turns around and speaks in dualistic terms of a mind that can become. Similarly, K says unless you are completely sensitive "all the time" there is no intelligence. But he also said that the desire for continuity or a permanent state is born of man's confusion.

Bob: Understanding the many seeming inconsistencies or paradox in K requires deep self-understanding. Which begins in earnest only with a radical mutation of the brain or a revolutionary change of the mind and heart, whereupon the entire organism begins to function in a totally new manner. Then the ensuing purifying, conditioning-eradicating, self-improvement, and character building part of the process that follows is not merely a vain ego-centric activity, but one of an unselfed or unselfing self. One that's genuinely effective. This being, and evermore-becoming, true to one's own authentic human self-nature being an unending task. Yet this adventure of self-overcoming or self-renewal can only manifest in those who have a finely-formed and sensitive brain and neurological makeup, as K clearly stated, in other words, in his 'Book of Life' quote of May 1.

"Understanding demands self-knowing, which is not an affair of the moment; learning about oneself is endless and the beauty and the greatness of it is that it is endless." (J. K. - 'Notebook')

"To think for oneself, to find out what is true and stand by it, without being influenced, whatever life may bring of misery or happiness - that is what builds character." (J. K. -'TOTT')

However, the flame of curiosity and the capacity for critical thinking and self-knowing have been completely and permanently snuffed out of most of us by our love and discipline lacking parental and societal conditioning. Rendering us blind, obedient, and robotistic sheep (though not always docile, but often quite violent or ravenous) all the rest of our days.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Mon, 31 Aug 2009 #186
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

"To think for oneself, to find out what is true and stand by it, without being influenced, whatever life may bring of misery or happiness - that is what builds character."

gv: if we see the fact that there is no self-nature, then we see that any effort at self-improvement no matter how well-intentioned or noble is born
of man's vanity and confusion. The judging mind is essentially divisive and where there is division there is no love. Out of seeing the false as false, there is naturally a shift to anonymity. I am nothing; the other is everything.

The benediction is where you are

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Mon, 31 Aug 2009 #187
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: if we see the fact that there is no self-nature, then we see that any effort at self-improvement no matter how well-intentioned or noble is born of man's vanity and confusion. The judging mind is essentially divisive and where there is division there is no love. Out of seeing the false as false, there is naturally a shift to anonymity. I am nothing; the other is everything.

"However, the flame of curiosity and the capacity for critical thinking and self-knowing have been completely and permanently snuffed out of most of us by our love and discipline lacking parental and societal conditioning. Rendering us blind, obedient, and robotistic sheep (though not always docile, but often quite violent or ravenous) all the rest of our days." (Bob M.)

Such is the all-pervasive nature of the human species presently. Which very rarely allows for any truly heart to heart and thereby spiritually productive dialogue or relationship to take place anywhere.

Thanks for the rap and take care Greg.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Mon, 31 Aug 2009.

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #188
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

However, the flame of curiosity and the capacity for critical thinking and self-knowing have been completely and permanently snuffed out of most of us by our love and discipline lacking parental and societal conditioning. Rendering us blind, obedient, and robotistic sheep (though not always docile, but often quite violent or ravenous) all the rest of our days." (Bob M.)

Such is the all-pervasive nature of the human species presently. Which very rarely allows for any truly heart to heart and thereby spiritually productive dialogue or relationship to take place anywhere.

Thanks for the rap and take care Greg. Bob M.

gv: you are welcome and thank you too.

When you see conditioned behavior that is robotic, do you perceive a robot? As long as we are inwardly separate, there must be conflict. But that inward separation is thought-derived; there is no actual separation between a 'me' in here and a 'you' out there.

The benediction is where you are

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #189
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
When you see conditioned behavior that is robotic, do you perceive a robot? As long as we are inwardly separate, there must be conflict. But that inward separation is thought-derived; there is no actual separation between a 'me' in here and a 'you' out there.

Hi Greg,

My experience is that it takes a great deal of re-cultivation of one's sensitivity, given that it's there in the first place, in order to clearly see the robotic or blind self-will-run-riot nature of the people around him. Krishnamurti was extremely adept at this and could clearly see, and without any doubt, the self in others from a mile away, so to speak. And no, people are not robots in the truest sense of the word, but rather they are very often thoroughly de-sensitized or de-humanized human beings. And in many cases hopelessly so.

And putting thought or analogies aside here, if I truly love someone and they cannot love me, then, my friend, there is indeed separation. There will be compassion, respect, and understanding of the other person on my part, and thereby no separation, but there'll be no true harmony or the sharing of deeply heartfelt joy, understanding, love, and happiness between us, since the other person cannot love. Therefore there will be separation. And what creates this separation is not so much thought, but the lacking of the capacity to love, which causes one to be overly bound-up in wrongful or excessive thought, which I would classify as being deeply conditioned self-protective thought. So deeply conditioned that one is virtually oblivious to the fact. Which is a result of the brain or mind being mis-wired or malformed.

"Without love you are a dead thing; and when the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead. Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then
you never ask to be loved, you never put out
your begging bowl for someone to fill it. It
is only the empty who ask to be filled, and an
empty heart can never be filled by running after gurus or seeking love in a hundred other ways." (J. K. - 'TOTT')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 01 Sep 2009.

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Wed, 02 Sep 2009 #190
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

I can understand what K meant by the urge to be anonymous because in that there is innocence, beauty and true freedom from the known. The comparing and judging of self and others seems to have no place in anonymity, nor does any claim of being part of an elite few.

=====

The sage does not distingush between his mind and the mind of the world.
Therefore he cares for the world of others like a mother cares for her children....

He who is unimportant has true influence. He who has influence and importance will not endure.

It is the emptiness at the center of a spoked wheel, within the center of a clay cup, inside the walls of a house, that make them of use. That is the Way.

Lao Tzu

=====

K: Greatness is anonymity, to be anonymous is the greatest thing. The great cathedral, the great things of life, great sculpture, must be anonymous. They do not belong to any particular person, like truth. Truth does not belong to you or to me, it is totally impersonal and anonymous; if you say you have got truth, then you say you have got truth, then you are not anonymous, you are far more important than truth. But an anonymous person may never be great. Probably he will never be great, because he does not want to be great, great in the sense of the world or even inwardly because he is nobody. He has no followers. He has no shrine, he does not puff himself up. But most of us unfortunately want to puff ourselves up, we want to be great, we want to be known, we want to have success. Success leads to fame, but that is an empty thing, is it not? It is like ashes. Every politician is known and it is his business to be known and therefore he is not great. Greatness is to be unknown, inwardly and outwardly to be as nothing; and that requires great penetration, great understanding, great affection. J Krishnamurti

The benediction is where you are

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Wed, 02 Sep 2009 #191
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg: I can understand what K meant by the urge to be anonymous because in that there is innocence, beauty and true freedom from the known. The comparing and judging of self and others seems to have no place in anonymity, nor does any claim of being part of an elite few.

Bob: Probably no one has made more deep and penetrating (and very accurate) moral pronouncements or judgments of societies and his fellow men than J. Krishnamurti did. Seems to me he's left no stones unturned regarding pointing out how "rotten" men and their societies and virtually everything in them is. Though I think perhaps he should have been far more "self-critically aware" or judgmental of himself and his own words and actions. Seems like the WT role went to his head, whether he admitted it or not, and in spite of all his rhetoric to the contrary.

K: What is wrong with an Elite? Do you want everybody and everything pulled down to the common denominator? That is one of the troubles with so-called democracy. ('Meeting Life')

Bob: You seem to me to be an apologist for mediocrity and complacency or non-action, Greg. Which I feel is true of many K-ites. Both of which K abhored. I don't think you have a deep experiential understanding of the true nature of paradox either. And I don't think I'd want to entrust the keys to the nation's jails to you.

Lao: The sage does not distingush between his mind and the mind of the world. Therefore he cares for the world of others like a mother cares for her children....

Bob: No, his caring for the world is not like a mother's care for her children, which is unconditional, but rather it contains wisdom, discernment, discrimination, judgment.

Lao: He who is unimportant has true influence. He who has influence and importance will not endure.

Bob: He who has true influence is very important. And he who has influence and importance will endure to the end.

Lao: It is the emptiness at the center of a spoked wheel, within the center of a clay cup, inside the walls of a house, that make them of use. That is the Way.

Bob: Emptyness reflects lack of energy, a lack of life, or Spirit. Fullness reflects passion, energy, and a zest for life, life evermore abundantly.

Lao: The perfect man is pure Spirit.

Bob: Yes, and therefore he's not "empty", but full. Though not full of himself, but full of the Spirit, which is not his but belongs to Life. And when the self is fully absent, all things are possible - and even permitted.

The Preacher: To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun.

K: Greatness is anonymity, to be anonymous is the greatest thing

Bob: Greatness (a great person) can be both anonymous and very well and widely known.

K: Every politician is known and it is his business to be known and therefore he is not great.

Bob: This is simply not always the case and reflects some of the monkey-business which K was surely not totally free of.

K: Greatness is anonymity, to be anonymous is the greatest thing.

Bob: The greatest thing is to be totally free of all self-delusion and to have NO skeletons whatsoever hiding in one's closet.

K: Success leads to fame, but that is an empty thing, is it not? It is like ashes.

Bob: No, not all success is an empty thing. True and rightful success can bring a deep and lasting fullness to one's life and being. Making it far from an "empty thing".

K was quite the keen observor of things all right, though he often stuck his foot in his own mouth. Had he better lived his own teachings I think he would have died feeling far more accomplished in his mission than he did.

K: Where there is no self there can be no conceit.

Bob: Yes, this is surely so.

Old Adage: Talk is cheap - Action speaks far louder than words.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 02 Sep 2009.

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Thu, 03 Sep 2009 #192
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, talk is cheap, especially when it is about the 'me.' :-)

The benediction is where you are

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Thu, 03 Sep 2009 #193
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
Yes, talk is cheap, especially when it is about the 'me.' :-)

"It requires an intense energy to stand alone." (Kinfonet Quote of the Day - Today)

Yes, and how very rare are those whose conditioned psychic-fragmentation hasn't shattered that "intense energy" or organismal-centeredness that's necessary to stand alone and get fully outside of or beyond the petty 'me'.

"Nobody can understand...Don't anybody pretend. Nobody, unless the
body has been CAREFULLY PREPARED, VERY CAREFULLY PROTECTED AND SO ON - nobody can understand what went through this body. Nobody. Don't anybody pretend." (J. K.)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 03 Sep 2009.

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #194
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

All people claim importance because they are separate, i.e. because identity is established in the known. Only if you seem to be separate from the world, do you say I am special. The intense creative energy is right at hand when the self is not. But that energy is not yours or mine or K's.

To stand alone is to be all-one, to embody the Tao. When the two are reduced to one, what is the one reduced to?

The benediction is where you are

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #195
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
All people claim importance because they are separate, i.e. because identity is established in the known. Only if you seem to be separate from the world, do you say I am special. The intense creative energy is right at hand when the self is not. But that energy is not yours or mine or K's.....To stand alone is to be all-one, to embody the Tao. When the two are reduced to one, what is the one reduced to?

Pure Spirit! One who is totally void of Self, Self-Interest!

And when one is pure spirit he is never "separate", regardless of what he may do or say. However, the "weak", "the momentarily discontented" (K), the non-transformed will often try to make him appear to be separate, though in doing so it is actually they who are separate.

"He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is Enlightened." (Lao Tzu)

Some people (those who are enlightened or have made the return to love) are important to the evolutionary scheme of things. Most (the irreparably machine or robotlike who lack the seed of love) are not. The latter actually put a huge drag on it.

But all's well and everything is perfectly on course, and someday soon things will all finally work themselves out.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #196
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

gv: All people claim importance because they are separate, i.e. because identity is established in the known. Only if you seem to be separate from the world, do you say I am special. The intense creative energy is right at hand when the self is not. But that energy is not yours or mine or K's.....To stand alone is to be all-one, to embody the Tao. When the two are reduced to one, what is the one reduced to?

rm: Pure Spirit! One who is totally void of Self, Self-Interest!

gv: does what is without self know and proclaim itself to be such? Does innocence have an image of being innocent? Do the humble boast of being humble? Does that which is without division claim I am without division and you are not? See the absurdity of it? The very assertion implies division.

The benediction is where you are

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #197
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: does what is without self know and proclaim itself to be such? . Does innocence have an image of being innocent? Do the humble boast of being humble? Does that which is without division claim I am without division and you are not? See the absurdity of it? The very assertion implies division.

I'm afraid the "boast" business here is on you my friend. Just as certain others vainly try to project the "ego" label on to me. I'm simply stating my position, the fact of the matter, neither humbly nor arrogantly, but simply as it is.

And for me to carry this particular dialogue any further would be not only be "absurd", but foolish, not to mention it being spiritually unproductive. Thus I sit content on the matter.

Again, thanks for the rap, the excercise, Greg, and enjoy your days!

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sat, 05 Sep 2009.

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Sat, 05 Sep 2009 #198
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Bob,
I too am just stating the facts as I see them as I have elsewhere to others
that proclaim their greatness, e.g. in comparison to K or Lao Tzu or the Buddha, etc . Self-aggrandizement is easy to see in others but not so easy
to see in oneself. What is spiritually beneficial is always a letting go of some kind of identification, is it not? I appreciate the insights you express and have no reason to doubt what you say has unfolded for you. Take care.

Greg

The benediction is where you are

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #199
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Film Festival at Venice: Michael

Moores film"CAPITALISAM:A LOVE STORY"
hits the headlines.Mr M.Moore says the
revolution of the people has started
with OBAMA
S election...... so Moore
has a tremendous image built up at the
cost of OBAMA& the ciizens of
USA. The merry -go- around of
revolutions----emphasized text

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Sun, 06 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 13 Sep 2009 #200
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan, what do people in Danmark and that part of the world think of Obama? I see him as "Big Brother". He is the sugar that helps the medecine go down. If Bush would have shoved all that money to big companies like Obama did, there would have been terrible uprisings among the people. I understand that it is a big step that a black man becomes the president of U.S.A. but on the other hand, it's odd that we make such a big fuss since we are not supposed to take into account one's racial background. The president has changed but the president is not the king, he still has to deal with those that have the real power, those that always act in the background. I hoped that he would have done something with the Afghan war, but no, he didn't, its business as usual and that scares the hell out of me because this war is the worst thing that could happen. I never thought i'd live to see that, not after the VietNam war...as if no lesson has been learned. I know nothing about war but I knew from the very beginning that if we engage in that, there would be no way out. This is so disturbing, it is the ugliest war ever and it looks like it is the Waterloo of our western societies. I'm afraid we will never get over that. The other day I was reading about the fall of the Roman empire and it was like if I was reading the newspaper, we are exactly in the same shit, (sorry for the bad word). I'm scared, not for myself, I had a good life, but for the youngsters, my grandson. It makes me sick to think that one day he will ask me what I was doing while things were getting tough, and what will I tell him...I was studying Krishnamurti? I feel ashamed already, all this unconsciousness, all this powerlessness. What do you say.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #201
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

pollixenie dritsas wrote:
I feel ashamed already, all this unconsciousness, all this powerlessness. What do you say.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #202
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

DearPolixene dristas, I share your feelings and most Danes do the same.But those who are in power in USA or here in DK, they have hijacked the people by means of Mobocracy (that is how modern democracy functions)and multimedia.There is no sanity left, how many vietnams,Afghanistan and other countries are engaged in endless meningless wars, this ,madness would continue forever. The Talibans are not Muslim angels either. Day in and day out these Muslim terrorists are plaguing India like a pest. The insiduous war goes on amidst misery and poverty bec ause of them. So I am not here to judge. War is inevitable as long as human beings do not resolve their inner conflicts. Instead of the defence industry, I would like to build toilets,bathroom,schools, hospitals, mobile clinics, agricultural research stations all over the world- so everyone in Africa or other less privileged parts, share the same facilities like your grandson. But the money flows to space explorations and defence in all the elite countries. The poor nations haver no say at all.We pretend to be democratic. On the one hand, poor muslim Afghhanisthan is attacked, and rich feudal,anachronistic Saudi Arabia is treated like warm friend and ally. The root cause lies in Saudi Arabia, but the Americans are searching (as if they are blind) ,their enemies in Iraq&Afghanistan.Most of their friends are undemocratic despots and demagogues! In that context how can one expect peacetimes for your grandson?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Mon, 14 Sep 2009.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #203
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I am not pro-Taliban. The thing is that they will never abdicate. This war has become a real industry. The soldiers that get blown up are just there to give a human face to the war. Mercaneries are doing the real dirty job. Here many companies have been ligning up since day one to get the huge contracts for what they call the restructuring, the reconstruction. The soldiers that volunteer are not that different from the Taliban, they too comme from the poorest classes with hardly any education and they hope that the army will provide them with a better futur and paradise as the ultimate compensation. We can't just sit there and wait for humanity to resolve its inner conflicts. This is an economic war, not an ideological one. It is the World trade Center that got blown, not the statue of Liberty, so that was a clear message. It is disgusting to see how the media never relate the war with recession, as if the two were happning in two different planets. Just after sept. 11, the Americans said they would freez AlQaidas and Ben Laden's bank accounts and the like, as if those people were stupid enough to have things in their names, but it showed that it was all about money from the very beginning. I think even Krishnamurti said that if we really loved our children, we would do everything to make a better world for them. I do something everyday about this war, like talking about it to you, today. So to answer your question, what would Krishnamurti give as advice to Obama. He could say to him "Thou shall not biteth the hand that feedeth thee". Right now I feel better thinking of what Gandhi would have said and done. Bye and good day to you, sir.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #204
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Yes we are talking here about it at least, but the majority are not bothered. Times are ripe for another cycle of anti-war-marches all over the world by ordinary citizens like you and me. The world cannot afford this madness.Prices of food and simple services like the postal are going to cost more not to talk about medicines, sugery, air-travel. All these war games and other games our mobocrats impose upon us in the name of democracy, we have to pay through the nose. In India, the poor cannot afford a cup of coffee or tea because the price of milk, coffee,tea& sugar have shot up in the past few years such that the hardworking common man cannot afford these things.The bill is sent to us the common man for all the evil the ruling elite do....

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #205
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan, what are the Taliban doing exactly in India. Surely they don't aim in converting all the hindous to Islam; are they targeting the muslims there? I know this has nothing to do with Krishnamurti, but if you have some time, I'd like to know.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #206
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

terrorists have many names and forms and they are there in Kashmir, they bombed in Bombay,Delhi, Calcutta and other places and they are recruiting among Muslim youngsters who are vulnerable to their propaganda. The origin is in the MADRASSA Schools teaching Quran.They are supported by huge funds from Saudis.As I said the root cause lies in Saudi Arabia....

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Mon, 14 Sep 2009.

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Mon, 14 Sep 2009 #207
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi! when you say the root cause comes from S.Arabia do you mean the gov't or people like Ben Laden who come from there but have disengaged themselves from that gov't. and decided to put their money and efforts in anti-american activity. They say the weapons used are made in the USA and in Britain. Any way we cannot give up hope for peace, we must be hardheaded and never give up like Gandhi who is the David against the Goliath of the 20th century. He had a way of forcing the British to show themselves as they really were, abusive, hypocritical, while he stayed true to his values and goals. If little Gandhi succeeded in having his way with the powerful Churchill and make him bent then there is some hope for us. Anyways if you have any ideas on what to do, let me know. One thing that occured to me is that older people like us have much more power than we think. Imagine an anti-war marche with people over 50. The authorities would surely hesitate before getting the tanks and the tear gas out for a bunch of elderly folk, it would look bad. Older people have less to lose. I for instance, am not afraid of ending up in jail, since it would be of less consequence on say, my family or my job than when I was young. Do you know what I'm saying or am I worrying you. I am not only thinking about my grandson. I have worked in quite remote places and I have seen the dirty tricks that are used even in times of peace to make people dependent and powerless in the name of development, good clothing, shelter and toilets for all...

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #208
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

pollixenie dritsas wrote:
I have worked in quite remote places and I have seen the dirty tricks that are used even in times of peace to make people dependent and powerless in the name of development, good clothing, shelter and toilets for all...

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #209
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Hi PD, would you elaborate what you have experienced as quoted above by you?I have similar, I think, experiences the coercion and pressure mounted by christian samaritans in India forcing leprosy-afflicted to convert them into christian faith.Many of the leprosy-affected do not like these christians and their proletyzing methods.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Tue, 15 Sep 2009 #210
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

No, Krish, I can't elaborate, My eyes are already filled with tears just thinking about all that, I can barely see the keyboard...I've seen women getting systematically sterilised after their fourth child without their consent nor knowledge of what had happened to them. I have seen white young graduates coming to work in far away villages and do just about anything to enrich their CV's like taking out all the teeth from a child, for its own good. In another part of the world I have seen local authorities accompanied by bankers and entrepreneurs visiting villages trying to convince the people to turn into proletarians, (though they never used that word), for their own good... But never mind about that, what do we do? Did you here about Morgantyler? He was a doctor who had succeeded. He had a nice family, a good wife and even a mistress, then he felt there was more in life than that and then he took action and became a hero for many women. That's how I feel. There comes a time when we have done what we had to do and we have to become heroes each one in our own way.

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