Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Awareness in our world today | moderated by Krishnan Srinivasan

The US President, OBAMA & his..

Closed_forum

Displaying posts 151 - 180 of 240 in total
Sat, 15 Aug 2009 #151
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Greg: What is it that gives impetus to self-inquiry?

Bob: Having a finely-formed and sensitive brain and neurological or sensory makeup. Passion, courage, and having a thirst for truth at all costs thereby being soundly built into such an organism. These qualities providing the impetus for self-inquiry. One's sensitive nature also providing suffering as the result of his being keenly aware that he is miserably entrenched in the mediocrity and empty nature of the status quo that's all around him. Suffering also providing the impetus to transcend (or perhaps even throw in the towel and die?) I think impetus for extensive and exhaustive self-inquiry may also often stem from deep-seated or semi to un - conscious remembrances of some times of genuine joy, happiness, love, and goodness that were experienced in the days of one's youth.

gv: I question whether the impetus comes from the mind or character or memory of the organism. The right sensitivity and neurological makeup relates to the organism's capacity and receptivity, but the impetus seems to transcend the particular organism. It seems to come from an energetic source out of which we derive our being. It seems like an evolutionary impulse.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Mon, 17 Aug 2009 #152
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Now that the President has taken his family to view the Grand canyon, he may derive the ancient wisdom and insight from the sights of ancient origin there. Many old American Indians believed in the NATURE of Grand canyon.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Mon, 17 Aug 2009 #153
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Now that the President has taken his family to view the Grand canyon, he may derive the ancient wisdom and insight from the sights of ancient origin there. Many old American Indians believed in the NATURE of Grand canyon.


I really don't think there's any chance of that happening, Krishnan. His age along with the circumstances of his upbringing won't allow for such a thing to happen.

Wisdom, along with its deep and fearless insight, is granted only to a few now-a-days. The bulk of humanity has become far too weak, desensitized, self-centered, and clever for it.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Tue, 18 Aug 2009 #154
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
GV: I question whether the impetus comes from the mind or character or memory of the organism. The right sensitivity and neurological makeup relates to the organism's capacity and receptivity, but the impetus seems to transcend the particular organism. It seems to come from an energetic source out of which we derive our being. It seems like an evolutionary impulse.

Yes, I suppose it could be stated as such Greg. Though I still think these things I've mentioned (including memories of having previously been in transcendental states of being) would all be a part of that "evolutionary impulse" in an individual. K once said that perhaps only 10 percent of mankind are capable of awakening, or transcending the conditioned "me". Or we might say have a genuine "impetus for self-inquiry". I feel the figure may be closer to 2 percent, due to the ongoing and ever-increasing desensitization and/or dehumanization of man as time and further deterioration and degeneration of the species continues on. My observations indicate that most people seem to 'feel' perfectly 'fine' and/or 'normal' in their deeply-conditioned machine or sleep like states of being. Hence there's no impetus for them to go for more, to go beyond, if you will. But as K too said, those who are sensitive and thereby suffer more deeply may go on to discover extraordinary things. And these kinds of people still do exist.

Of course along with sensitivity comes the keen awareness of the terror and the horror of reality and the dark side of man or (fallen) human nature. Which, from my own experience, I feel highly-sensitive people might tend to seek relief from through such substances as alcohol and drugs, including caffeine and nicotine. Such things also giving one a sense of well-being, though at the same time disabling, crippling, or severely limiting that impetus to breakthrough and seriously engage in thorough and unending self-inquiry, along with most likely also making the necessary radical changes in one life. Hence the vital need to be free of all mood-altering or desensitizing substances, as K too felt, if one is to ever go 'beyond'. One must also grow in strength and courage and face the suffering that comes to those who are deeply sensitive to the human misery and violence that lies all around him and not get entangled in it, but instead continue to move forward and stay above it with perfect understanding and acceptance of it all. Along with incorporating right-action/s in one's life.

Lastly, I feel the inherent "impetus to self-inquiry" in most people will also need a 'boost' or inspiration and some right-direction in the form of a personal example and testimony from someone who's been successful in the long and difficult journey of self-overcoming. Perhaps, and hopefully, such a person, through his experiences and wisdom, might be able to make the path a little, or even a lot, easier for those relatively few others who are called by evolution to fullness of human being.

Always remembering here too that the old and long buried and forgotten Christian adage,"many are called, but few are chosen" applies also to the evolutionary scheme of things, as follows:

"As in the evolution of an individual tree some branches flourish while others fail: as in a forest some trees grow tall and stretch out wide branches while others are stunted and die out; as in the onward and upward progress of any species some individuals are in advance of the main body while others lag behind; so in the forward march of the collective human mind across the centuries some individual minds are in the van of the great army, while in the rear of the column stagger and fall vast numbers of defective specimens." (Richard Bucke - 'Cosmic Consciousness')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Tue, 18 Aug 2009 #155
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg: What is it that gives impetus to self-inquiry?

Bob: Having a finely-formed and sensitive brain and neurological or sensory makeup. Passion, courage, and having a thirst for truth at all costs thereby being soundly built into such an organism.

"Truth, the real God - the real God, not the God that man has made - does not want a mind that has been destroyed, petty, shallow, narrow, limited. It needs a 'healthy mind' to appreciate it; it needs a 'rich mind' - rich, not with knowledge but with 'innocence' - a mind upon which there has never been a scratch of experience, a mind that is free from time. The gods that you have invented for your own comforts accept torture; they accept a mind that is being made dull. But the real thing does not want it; it wants a total, complete human being 'whose heart is full, rich, clear, capable of intense feeling', capable of seeing the beauty of a tree, the smile of a child, and the agony of a woman who has never had a full meal. You have to have this extraordinary 'feeling', this 'sensitivity' to everything - to the animal, to the cat that walks across the wall, to the squalor, the dirt, the filth of human beings in poverty, in despair. You have to be 'sensitive' - which is to 'feel intensely', not in any particular direction, which is not an emotion which comes and goes, but which is to be sensitive with your nerves, with your eyes, with your body, with your ears, with your voice. You have to be sensitive completely all the time. Unless you are so completely sensitive, there is no intelligence. 'INTELLIGENCE (God/Truth/Love/Wisdom?) COMES WITH SENSITIVITY AND OBSERVATION.' " (J. Krishnamurti - 'Book of Life' - 5/1)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Fri, 21 Aug 2009 #156
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
As in the evolution of an individual tree some branches flourish while others fail: as in a forest some trees grow tall and stretch out wide branches while others are stunted and die out; as in the onward and upward progress of any species some individuals are in advance of the main body while others lag behind; so in the forward march of the collective human mind across the centuries some individual minds are in the van of the great army, while in the rear of the column stagger and fall vast numbers of defective specimens." (Richard Bucke - 'Cosmic Consciousness')

gv: the branches are not separate from the tree and the tree is not separate from the whole environment. It is thought that divides the totality into parts and then treats partial activity as if it occurs in isolation from what is occurring for the totality. Thought
invents individual "minds" but in actuality, there is nothing inherently separate and all that is springs equally from the source. In regard to the evolution of consciousness, it is not the 'me' that is evolving or failing to evolve. So when K says that intelligence requires great sensitivity, the danger is that is misconstrued to indicate that sensitivity is a
means to intelligence. That brings back the illusion of time. See what I am getting at?

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Sat, 22 Aug 2009 #157
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: the branches are not separate from the tree and the tree is not separate from the whole environment. It is thought that divides the totality into parts and then treats partial activity as if it occurs in isolation from what is occurring for the totality. Thought invents individual "minds" but in actuality, there is nothing inherently separate and all that is springs equally from the source. In regard to the evolution of consciousness, it is not the 'me' that is evolving or failing to evolve. So when K says that intelligence requires great sensitivity, the danger is that is misconstrued to indicate that sensitivity is a means to intelligence. That brings back the illusion of time. See what I am getting at?

Hi Greg,

Yes I think I see what you are getting at, Greg. Theoretically speaking it sounds rather good, however if it is to be of any real value it must work in our daily lives. Meaning it must be made manifest by our genuinely being a Light unto ourselves and the people about us. Which one will keenly sense or feel in himself, and without any doubts whatsoever. Actually anything anyone says or writes can and often will be misconstrued (or not deeply or thoroughly understood) by others. Including Krishnamurti's teachings or his many words of wisdom and right action or direction. Or those also of many other outstanding men and women. However, attempts to point the way (the path to freedom) to others must be made. And, with this foremost in mind, if some people gain from the sharing of one's experience, strength, hope, inspiration, thoughts, feelings, love, ideas, discoveries, revelations, etc., good; and if they can't or won't, so be it. It simply can't be helped. Such is the nature of life, evolution, or the human condition. Though it's very important for those who are awakened or enlightened to gear their sharing with others in such a way that there will be a maximum chance of them gaining something that will be of real value to their own awakening and eventual centering. Or more simply, one must always strive, or is responsible, to plant good seeds. Actually the evolutionary process demands this of us.

Since we are all conditioned to varying degrees into a mind state or set whereby it operates largely in a self-protective thought mode, it is seldom that we ever fully or deeply hear or understand, or even more importantly, feel what others are saying. Likewise the same thing is very often true of the things we say to others. We both hear and speak largely without deeply understanding, or being fully connected to or in tune with, what we are hearing or saying. As a result there's very little true and meaningful or spiritually and morally edifying human to human communication going on anywhere. Practical information, which is important too, is still communicated and grasped rather well, or at least well enough that life and the human species still manages to limp on, though in a considerably wretched, dark, or fallen state. So by and large man universally remains severely caught up in a machine or robot like state of being. A state where he is little more than a spiritless or lifeless vessel of long and wrongly conditioned unfeeling and unthinking actions and reactions, rather than him being a spontaneous and authentic self or being. Hence it could be rightly said that we hear and speak largely, if not solely, with our heads rather than with our hearts. Or perhaps better yet with a lack of balance or harmony between the two. Which is the ideal and quite necessary if one is to attain to wholeness and fullness of human understanding and being.

That self-protective thought mode (which causes us to live in "time" rather than in the timeless or the eternal) that we're all conditioned into is simply the result of being born into a species of life that is in a fallen or yet un-self-knowing state, and thereby not yet fully developed, finished, or perfected. Hence there's still very much subtle and blatant human violence, darkness, and underhandedness going on all around us in our living environment from our earliest days on. The horror, brutality, and cruelty of it all, which can be clearly perceived by us even when we are very young, causing us to get caught up in this self-protective thought mode. Which often becomes also a self-aggrandizing thought mode, along with us blocking out reality and becoming happy and content in our self-delusion and falseness and incompleteness of being Actually, and unfortunately, for many of us, we're not merely caught up in it, but our minds or brains have, as a result of it, been malformed or developed in such a manner that there'll be no return again to, let's say, right-mindedness. Since a mind or brain that is so misconstructed is not aware, or at least not deeply aware that it is defective and operating in such a manner. Nor could it make the return to wholeness even if it was. Though curiously I still often wonder here whether some people can be deeply aware of the irreparably defective nature of their organism and yet can comfortably or successfully run or hide from this fact for a lifetime, and even a very long one. Perhaps aided or carried along by various drugs and or alcohol.

A spiritual or kundalini awakening or a mutation or shift of the mind, such as K underwent in 1922, and which I feel strongly is necessary if one is to discover that new state of consciousness he spoke of and dwelled in, cannot be made to happen (as you seem to rightly grasp). It must happen of itself, and yet it can only really happen to someone who is built for it. Meaning again the need to be sensitive, serious, sincere, having a finely-formed organism, etc. However, I believe we can be of help in the awakening of others if we communicate with them from the core of our being, or from a place where ALL the offensive/defensive walls created by years of being caught in the self-protective thought mode are dropped. Even if only momentarily. Though the more enlightened and self-realized one is the greater effect he'll have in this adventure. Though ironically, and somewhat sorrowfully, I find that even those who are incapable of self-overcoming and attaining to that new state of consciousness can themselves be of value in the awakening of others if the conditions are right. That is of course if the recipient or the seeker is in a state of perfect openness. And again even if only momentarily.

Let me conclude here by summing up the simple point I'm trying to get across here as follows:

When one totally surrenders to the moment, or fully opens himself, his total being, up to life; life and its people automatically reciprocate and open themselves up to him. At least up to a point. Of course it must be remembered that life is lived moment by moment, and we must move or flow along with it accordingly, and let me add here, feelingly. Being careful not to destroy the perfection of each and every moment by falling back (or looking behind the plow) into the old patterns of self-protective and/or self-aggrandizing thought, which is to immediately step out of the joy-filled Light of the eternal now and back again into the dullness and darkness of being bound up in SPT, time, self, or mediocrity.

Which brings to mind here K's keen, rightful, and quite meaningful observation that, 'We are the world and the world is us'.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Sat, 22 Aug 2009 #158
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Blockquote
Blockquote

Robert Michael wrote:
When one totally surrenders to the moment, or fully opens himself, his total being, up to life; life and its people automatically reciprocate and open themselves up to him. At least up to a point. Of course it must be remembered that life is lived moment by moment, and we must move or flow along with it accordingly, and let me add here, feelingly. Being careful not to destroy the perfection of each and every moment by falling back (or looking behind the plow) into the old patterns of self-protective and/or self-aggrandizing thought, which is to immediately step out of the joy-filled Light of the eternal now and back again into the dullness and darkness of being bound up in SPT, time, self, or mediocrity.
Which brings to mind here K's keen, rightful, and quite meaningful observation that, 'We are the world and the world is us'.
Bob M.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Sat, 22 Aug 2009 #159
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for your fine elucidation in summing up, Bob.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Sun, 23 Aug 2009 #160
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Bob said:
A spiritual or kundalini awakening or a mutation or shift of the mind, such as K underwent in 1922, and which I feel strongly is necessary if one is to discover that new state of consciousness he spoke of and dwelled in, cannot be made to happen (as you seem to rightly grasp). It must happen of itself, and yet it can only really happen to someone who is built for it. Meaning again the need to be sensitive, serious, sincere, having a finely-formed organism, etc. However, I believe we can be of help in the awakening of others if we communicate with them from the core of our being, or from a place where ALL the offensive/defensive walls created by years of being caught in the self-protective thought mode are dropped. Even if only momentarily. Though the more enlightened and self-realized one is the greater effect he'll have in this adventure. Though ironically, and somewhat sorrowfully, I find that even those who are incapable of self-overcoming and attaining to that new state of consciousness can themselves be of value in the awakening of others if the conditions are right. That is of course if the recipient or the seeker is in a state of perfect openness. And again even if only momentarily

gv: Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, an energetic awakening is necessary yet cannot be made to happen. A sensitive sharing with other people is necessary but there too, there is no way to know where if anywhere the seed can or will take root. Can we truly say there is one who attains or self-overcomes and then perhaps succeeds in hitting a spiritual home run in changing the culture? Or is the evolution of a purported individual psyche a fallacy?

The benediction is where you are

This post was last updated by Greg Van Tongeren Sun, 23 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Mon, 24 Aug 2009 #161
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Thanks for your fine elucidation in summing up, Bob.

You're welcome Krishnan. More and more I'm coming to clearly understand the process of enlightenment, awakening, liberation, recapturing love, self-knowing, etc. as being primarily a matter of the purification of the manner in which our brain functions, as Krishnamurti often alluded to. Since all our actions and behaviors stem from it. He spoke a lot about this in his notebook, which was written when he was around 66. Wherein he also said the purification of his own brain was still taking place, and that this purification, along with self-knowing and discovery, was an endless process. I find that my brain is too still undergoing this purification process, and that much progress has taken place in especially the past two or three years. Since in that period of time I have not been burdened with any worldly obligations or responsibilities or undesirable or unpleasant engagements with other people, allowing me to better focus on and practice this vital purifying process.

"The purification of the brain is necessary. The brain is the center of all the senses; the more the senses are alert and sensitive the sharper the brain is; it's the center of remembrance, the past; it's the storehouse of exoerience and knowledge, tradition. so it's limited, conditioned. Its activities are planned, thought out, reasoned, but it functions in limitation, in space-time, So it cannot formulate or understand that which is the total, the whole, the complete. The complete, the whole is the mind; it is empty, totally empty and because of this emptyness, the brain exists in space-time. Only when the brain has cleansed itself of its conditioning, greed, envy, ambition, then only it can comprehend that which is complete." (J. Krishnamurti - 'K's Notebook')

I find a person can have a genuine revolutionary awakening experience or experiences also with a radical shift of consciousness or mind state take place in them. Yet unless they sincerely and conscientiously and unendingly engage in this purifying process, which must also include being vigilantly self-critically aware and watchful, their enlightened state will have limitations and it's accompanying brightness and freshness will slowly, but surely, fade away. Which brings to mind K's stressing the important need for considerable amounts or periods of solitude in order to "cultivate sensitivity" and for "the total development of the human being". Something he certainly had an abundance of.

"To have integrity is to be self-critically aware, aware of what one is from moment to moment." (J. K.)

Quite simple are the teachings, though so difficult and very rarely ever attained to by anyone. Seeing all the false within oneself and dying totally to it and going beyond it ALL takes great self-honesty AND courage. A journey which few are built for, let alone ever successfully achieve.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Mon, 24 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 25 Aug 2009 #162
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, an energetic awakening is necessary yet cannot be made to happen. A sensitive sharing with other people is necessary but there too, there is no way to know where if anywhere the seed can or will take root. Can we truly say there is one who attains or self-overcomes and then perhaps succeeds in hitting a spiritual home run in changing the culture? Or is the evolution of a purported individual psyche a fallacy?

Hi Greg,

gv: Thanks for the detailed response.

Bob: You're quite welcome, Greg. Actually this sort of activity serves me well too as a means to better and better learn about and understand myself, along with it helping to improve my communication and writing skills. And if others happen to gain something from it, that's great, though there's certainly much en-JOY-ment in the doing. Even though it often takes me many hours to get a post just right. Stick-to-itive-ness and perfectionism being qualities that are necessary for Kingdom entry.

gv: Yes, an energetic awakening is necessary yet cannot be made to happen.

Bob: Yes, though our words and actions can tweak other's consciences or hearts in such a way that may help lead them to a radical awakening experience. Perhaps not immediately, but as you say the seed has been planted. Those awakened ones especially being responsible for planting good seeds. While always remembering that if and when a genuine awakening does occur bizarre events can and often will take place. When a brain that's been operating largely and for a considerable period of time in a self-protective thought mode shifts to an intuitive or spontaneous mode, which is yet far from being perfected, cultivated, or purified, there's no telling what one may do or experience. I would point others to studying K's turning point experience in 1922, along with what sort of activities preceded it. Of course there's been many others too who have undergone similar and even more intensive and perhaps even better documented awakening experiences. My own awakening, especially early-on, involved similar experiences and even more bizarre ones than K underwent. Including some which led to my being locked up in jail and mental institutions. These and other events that took place during the awakening process causing friends and family members to think I was out of my mind or at least fast going there. Which brings up some interesting points. Often when someone does something that's not considered socially acceptable behavior, people will often say the person was or is not in his right mind. Which raises the questions, what mind were they then in or just what is a right mind? And who is the judge and determiner of right-mindedness or the nature (the good or evil) of the actions that stem from someone's mind?

Gopi Krishna wrote much about his own Kundalini awakening experiences, but he withheld sharing the tales of some of the "more bizarre incidents" that he experienced feeling "they would be unacceptable to a rational mind." Which I feel was a big mistake on his part. Feeling here that the rational mind and rationally-minded people are very largely the problem. Whereby being intuitively-minded is the ideal or the goal and the same as attaining to that new consciousness that K and some others speak of. Along with G Ks wrongly thinking that somehow scientists could further and better understand and develop and promote Kundalini awakening experiences in people. Personally I place little importance or focus on the Kundalini label or tradition, as I feel, it, like so many things that began fine, pure, and dandy, has become so drug into the mud or misunderstood and exploited by the fallen human element that it's become of little, if any, real evolutionary value. Though again I feel a revolutionary brain and sensory mutation and awakening experience is absolutely necessary in order to attain to a genuine and total freedom of the Spirit.

gv: A sensitive sharing with other people is necessary......

Bob: Yes, and particularly the sharing of our own experiences of how we have overcome the self and all the miserable and unhappy worldly entanglements it got us caught up in. And I think here of especially the two big ones, they being jobs and relationships. And the 'teachings' address these situations, but unfortunately not from an experiential viewpoint. Which again is how one best helps others.

gv: But there too, there is no way to know where if anywhere the seed can or will take root.

Bob: I think here of the age-old parable of the planting of the seeds. Though I find there's no limit to what someone with an awakened, enlivened, and re-cultivated or purified intuitive mechanism can know about oneself, life, and other people. I think one can come to know fairly-well who's a potential self-overcomer and who's not. Though it's not good to pause too long to watch whether or not the seeds grow in any particular individuals. To do so can severly limit one's overall effectiveness and create a lot of needless aggravation. Which I've learned from experience, often painful experience. It is sad and heartwrenching, however, to see a good soul miss the mark and not make it to the promised land because they refuse to leave the security of the known, the familiar, the safe. And the same is true of those poor souls who have badly tormented or traumatic childhoods and thereby won't make it there either. Though one must not allow himself to get stuck playing the savior or fixer role and go on and be sure that he doesn't miss the mark. Becoming complacent and often arrogant while backsliding and losing that immense energy K spoke of, can, and very often does, occur along the way. And it happens ever so subtly and yet often ever so certainly. Especially as one gains confidence and knowledge regarding himself and the nature and workings of the spiritual dimension and journey, while getting lazy regarding one's own ideally ongoing and unending brain purification process. Along with the fact that he'll get very little encouragement from the people around him, and even if he's in a religious or spiritual setting or environment..

gv: Can we truly say there is one who attains or self-overcomes and then perhaps succeeds in hitting a spiritual home run in changing the culture?

Bob: Absolutely, though only a portion of the culture will be changed, since only a portion of culture is capable of change. Remember too that many of those who are capable of self-overcoming won't be willing to let go absolutely or with complete abandon, and will instead settle for being reasonably happy while unfortunately missing out on attaining to supreme happiness. Which can indeed be had right here and now in one's present body. Though again only at the cost of complete and total surrender or self-abandonment.

gv: Or is the evolution of a purported individual psyche a fallacy?

Bob: Not at all. Although it must happen individually at least initially, though under the right circumstances I feel it can happen both individually and collectively simultaneously or in an explosive manner. Yet in order for such an explosion to ever take place a fully-perfected individual must first appear.

"The perfect man is pure Spirit." (Lao Tzu)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Wed, 26 Aug 2009 #163
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

gv: Or is the evolution of a purported individual psyche a fallacy?

Bob: Not at all. Although it must happen individually at least initially, though under the right circumstances I feel it can happen both individually and collectively simultaneously or in an explosive manner. Yet in order for such an explosion to ever take place a fully-perfected individual must first appear.

"The perfect man is pure Spirit." (Lao Tzu)

gv: is it the psyche that is evolving, or is it spirit evolving and man is a vehicle for that? Or to put in differently, is it man who is awakening or is it intelligence that is awakening in the particular human being?

We can look at in terms of innocence. Does innocence measure and compare who is more innocent or more evolved? Or is the beauty of innocence its purity i.e. - that there is not that self-reflection occurring?

Another side of it is the nature of the timeless dimension that we are.
In our physical forms we are separate but in our formless identity so to speak we are one. It is not that my spirit is more pure than yours. That implies separation which means identification with thought and form.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Wed, 26 Aug 2009 #164
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Now the news at hand:President Obama has lost a loyal supporter and friend, the legendary democratic leader Edward Kennedy has died at the age of 77.A great loss for USA and the world at large.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Wed, 26 Aug 2009 #165
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Now the news at hand: President Obama has lost a loyal supporter and friend, the legendary democratic leader Edward Kennedy has died at the age of 77. A great loss for USA and the world at large.

Yes, there's no end to the back-rubbing (and stabbing) that goes on in the political arena Krishnan.

Many people died yesterday. And many of them have been far less self-serving and mischief-making than T. K. So I see no real loss here. Perhaps even a slight gain.

But remember here that these poor souls are really not at fault. Since in most cases their brains have been damaged as the result of their conditioning, and they are thereby incapable of doing or being anything other than they are.

I too always felt those who were born with silver-spoons in their mouths were cursed rather than blessed. And that they nearly always go on to spread that curse upon others, often under the guise of atruism, egalitarianism, and democracy, the latter being perhaps the biggest joke of them all.

I think I just heard (I don't watch the tube too closely as doing so generally sickens me) Obama say we are going to create an America that is more equal and just. Immediately I wondered why not perfectly equal and just? But in either case I'm afraid God, Himself is incapable of doing such a thing. At least not without first destroying most of it.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Wed, 26 Aug 2009 #166
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Bob, thank you for you fine-tuning of the problems involved with silver-spoons,equality(more&perfect)and democracy as it is.Very nice point of view.As you said the poor souls cannot help it. I agree entirely with you even if someone or other name us as being"cynical" I do not mind , do you?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Wed, 26 Aug 2009 #167
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Dear Bob, thank you for your fine-tuning of the problems involved with silver-spoons, equality (more & perfect) and democracy as it is. Very nice point of view. As you said the poor souls cannot help it. I agree entirely with you even if someone or other name us as being "cynical" I do not mind, do you?

No, not at all, because I do really maintain hope for the species, or at least a portion of it. And besides, as I think K once said, "What is - is". Actually, I see the way out of the darkness for a few, though I haven't made all that much progress as yet in being genuinely instrumental in that greatest of challenges.

Anyway Krishnan, those among us who have been blessed with sensitivity, sound-mindedness, and the accompanying capacity for genuine love, understanding, and compassion must always try to maintain an attitude of gratitude. Though granted, this is surely not always easy to do, and especially under the present circumstances. But try one must if he is to maintain his joy, peace of mind, happiness, and usefulness to others.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 26 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Thu, 27 Aug 2009 #168
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

KRISHNAMURTI: We are saying, let's be clear, that the evolution of consciousness is a fallacy... There is no psychological evolution, or the evolution of the psyche.

DAVID BOHM: Yes, and since the future of mankind depends on the psyche, it seems then that the future of mankind is not going to be determined through actions in time.

KRISHNAMURTI: Mind is universal, not polluted by thought. You only have your brain, which is conditioned. You can't say "It's my mind" ... What lies beyond thought when thought is silent is attention. Attention is without activity of thought ...Undirected attention of the mind contacts the brain as long as the brain is silent. Attention can only "be" when self is "not."

DAVID BOHM: But those cells that are conditioned, whatever they may be, evidently dominate consciousness now, right?

KRISHNAMURTI: Yes. Can those cells be changed? We are saying that they can through insight - insight being "out of time."

DAVID BOHM: This insight will be through the action of the mind, intelligence, and attention.

KRISHNAMURTI: Where there is that insight, intelligence wipes away suffering.

DAVID BOHM: ... there is contact from mind to matter which removes the whole physical chemical structure which keeps us going on with suffering.

KRISHNAMURTI: That's right. In that ending, there is a mutation in the brain cells.

DAVID BOHM: That mutation just wipes out the whole structure that makes you suffer...

KRISHNAMURTI: Matter is limited, thought is limited.

DAVID BOHM: But we are saying that "the pure energy of mind is able to reach into the limited energy of man."

KRISHNAMURTI: Yes, that's right and change the limitation.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Thu, 27 Aug 2009 #169
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: Or is the evolution of a purported individual psyche a fallacy?.....
Bob: Not at all. Although it must happen individually at least initially, though under the right circumstances I feel it can happen both individually and collectively simultaneously or in an explosive manner. Yet in order for such an explosion to ever take place a fully-perfected individual must first appear....
"The perfect man is pure Spirit." (Lao Tzu)

Hi Greg,

gv: Is it the psyche that is evolving, or is it spirit evolving and man is a vehicle for that?

Bob: I use the word evolution/evolving here in the sense of the psyche, brain, or spirit genuinely breaking free of it's fragmentary or wrongful, thus severely limited, manner of functioning.

gv: Or to put in differently, is it man who is awakening or is it intelligence that is awakening in the particular human being?

Bob: I would say it is both the man and (his) intelligence that are awakening, since they are one and the same. Though man' s intelligence and knowledge, both individually and collectively, have and continue to evolve or increase with time.

gv: We can look at in terms of innocence. Does innocence measure and compare who is more innocent or more evolved?

Bob: I don't subscribe to more evolved here, as I feel, like K, a person is either transformed or he is not. Though for those who are transformed I think we could definitely say some are more finely-cultivated, purified, or perfected than others. And I see nothing wrong with measuring and comparing (or telling others how one thinks or feels about something or someone) if one's motives for doing so are right or pure. I think here of innocent or yet pure-hearted children who often tell us adults certain truths about ourselves, life, and others which very often we don't want to hear. That is until we straightened them up. And this straightening them up is the beginning of the destruction of their minds and spirits. And permanently in many cases. Truth, love, strength, and courage creates and builds - lies, half-truths, half-heartedness, mediocrity, and cowardice tear down and destroy.

gv: Or is the beauty of innocence its purity i.e. - that there is not that self-reflection occurring?

Bob: I don't think self-reflection ever completely ends, especially since man, including those who are in fact awakened, is presently still far-removed from fully knowing and living out his true nature and full potential. Though it may end if and when the human species becomes pure Spirit collectively.

gv: Another side of it is the nature of the timeless dimension that we are. In our physical forms we are separate but in our formless identity so to speak we are one. It is not that my spirit is more pure than yours. That implies separation which means identification with thought and form.

Bob: There need not be any sense of separation between a greater or lessor spirit or even between a spirit and a non-spirit. At least not on the part of the spirit. Or unless thought grounded in self, in time, comes into play and thereby creates the separation or tries to claim there somehow must always be separation between unequals. One can know he's superior OR inferior to another without any need to feel, give thought, or boast or complain that he is such. I think here of K's line, 'where there is no self, there can be no conceit'. Or separation or disharmony.

"What is wrong with an elite? Do you want everybody and every thing pulled down to this common denominator? That is one of the many troubles with so-called democracy. (J. K. - 'Meeting Life')

"A man with vision should think dangerously, without regard to the views of the greatest past thinkers whose influence has faded. Truth must be his only ethic. What he will propose of course can only be the same truth as was proposed in the past, but he states it in a new form as if for the first time in a manner which is directly appropriate to the contemporary confusion. He must not be afraid if in doing so he will give offense to others. The degree of fear in our vision of ourselves is what measures and limits our intelligence. The fear is what imprisons our thought. Breaking the tablets once is not enough. It has to be done again and again, both historically and for ourselves." (Paul Bronton)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 27 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Fri, 28 Aug 2009 #170
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

gv: Is it the psyche that is evolving, or is it spirit evolving and man is a vehicle for that?

Bob: I use the word evolution/evolving here in the sense of the psyche, brain, or spirit genuinely breaking free of it's fragmentary or wrongful, thus severely limited, manner of functioning.

gv: self-assertion implies self-image and self-image is thought-derived.
What is K pointing to when he says the evolution of the psyche or the self
is a fallacy? If self is thought-derived, it can not become anything, right?
Conditioning or programming can change but no matter how it changes or increases in terms of knowledge and capacity, it is still programming. There may be self-reflection as a habit of thought but that doesn't mean there is or ever was a self to become transformed or to attain enlightenment. Light does not seek light. It is luminous by its very nature.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Fri, 28 Aug 2009 #171
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Interesting portion of a K, Bohm dialogue you present above Greg. Though I feel all their dialogues were not only totally unfruitful in the transformation of man or the ending of time, but were actually counterproductive towards these ends. Primarily because neither K nor Bohm took into account the fact that there are two types of brains. Those relatively few that are sensitive and finely-formed and are functioning improperly, yet can be restored to right-functioning, sanity, and wholeness (and I'll add love here also). And the many that are irreparably malformed and thereby functioning improperly and cannot be restored to right-functioning, etc. However I'll put my two cents worth into it. It's also my feeling that K had a brain that was capable of and possessed wholeness etc., which I think is pretty obvious to many people, while Bohm had one that was not, in spite of its rather deep insightfulness.

KRISHNAMURTI: We are saying, let's be clear, that the evolution of consciousness is a fallacy... There is no psychological evolution, or the evolution of the psyche.

Bob: Agree.

DAVID BOHM: Yes, and since the future of mankind depends on the psyche, it seems then that the future of mankind is not going to be determined through actions in time.

Bob: The future of mankind depends on a shift back into right-functioning of the psyche in some of those people who have finely-formed and sensitive brains and neurological constructs. And actions in both the time and the timeless dimensions or states will be involved in this process, though as it progresses onward all actions will be more and more in the timeless or the eternal.

KRISHNAMURTI: Mind is universal, not polluted by thought. You only have your brain, which is conditioned. You can't say "It's my mind" ... What lies beyond thought when thought is silent is attention. Attention is without activity of thought ...Undirected attention of the mind contacts the brain as long as the brain is silent. Attention can only "be" when self is "not."

Bob: Generally true I would say, though I find this is largely unessential and meaningless (unfruitful) drivel.

DAVID BOHM: But those cells that are conditioned, whatever they may be, evidently dominate consciousness now, right?

Bob: The cells are not conditioned. Rather the brain and its cells have been wrongly or insufficiently wired operationally-wise by their conditioning in most people. In the remainder, the brain is essentially soundly formed (meaning the senses, feelings, intuitions have been properly incorporated into it), but has been conditioned into wrongful operation or functioning. And in both cases the conditioned brain dominates or controls one's words, thoughts, and actions, more so than one's consciousness, which I feel is but a distractive abstraction. Conscience being a far better term here.

KRISHNAMURTI: Yes. Can those cells be changed? We are saying that they can through insight - insight being "out of time."

Bob: No, again the cells are not the problem. Though the operating mode of some brains can be changed through insight. However the insight manifests from a spontaneous or timeless shift or change in the operating mode first taking place in the brain.

DAVID BOHM: This insight will be through the action of the mind, intelligence, and attention.

Bob: Seems to me Bohm's trying to to make the point I've tried to get across directly above.

KRISHNAMURTI: Where there is that insight, intelligence wipes away suffering.

Bob: Where there is that insight, intelligence and its accompanying right-action wipes away suffering. Though not necessarily all that instantly as "wipe away" tends to imply. That is in those with sensitive and finely formed brains and neurological makups. Since those not so endowed, in most cases, don't really suffer, or not deeply, since it takes a sensitive and intelligent brain to suffer deeply. Deep suffering serving to point out its erroneous functioning.

DAVID BOHM: ... there is contact from mind to matter which removes the whole physical chemical structure which keeps us going on with suffering.

Bob: I see this as essentially nonsensical here, save that it indicates to me that Bohm is reflecting on his own suffering with some hope that it can come to an end.

KRISHNAMURTI: That's right. In that ending, there is a mutation in the brain cells.

Bob: Mutation? Yes, which again is simply a shift or change, not in the brain cells, but in the brain operating mode or functioning.

DAVID BOHM: That mutation just wipes out the whole structure that makes you suffer...

Bob: Here's that word suffering again. And again, nothing's really wiped out, the brain and its beholder simply begin to function properly, fully, sanely.

KRISHNAMURTI: Matter is limited, thought is limited.

Bob: Yes, for whatever this may be worth.

DAVID BOHM: But we are saying that "the pure energy of mind is able to reach into the limited energy of man."

Bob: The pure energy of a sound, right-functioning, and purified mind is able to reach into and release the limited energy of man. The limited energy being the result of a non-centered or wrongly or ill-functioning brain and sensory system.

KRISHNAMURTI: Yes, that's right and change the limitation.

Bob: No, not simply change the limitation, but remove all limitations. Whereby that "immense energy and intelligence" that you, yourself (K), said went through your body for so many years will be fully released.

One thing I would add here. Those relatively few minds or brains that are in fact salavageble are currently making no progress in this direction, since they are everywhere deeply intrenched in a collectivity of damaged, fragmented, wrongly-functioning, neurotic, or insane brains or minds which fatally impedes any genuine or lasting breakthrough by any of them. This being the condition in which the evolutionary process continues to remain stuck in.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 28 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #172
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Now the news at hand:President Obama has lost a loyal supporter and friend, the legendary democratic leader Edward Kennedy has died at the age of 77.A great loss for USA and the world at large.

gv: Krishnan, may I ask why you say this was a great loss and when RM says it was perhaps actually a gain you immediately agree with that? Similarly you speak admirably of Obama but when RM says Obama and his efforts to bring about change are just more human delusion, you readily agree? Are
you trying to avoid an argument or changing your opinion?

Does the fact that the consciousness of humanity collectively is not changed mean that the good that occurs here and now is just imaginary? Do you see what Obama means in saying the perfect is the enemy of the good? The good is here and now. The perfect is just a figment of thought.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #173
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

DAVID BOHM: But we are saying that "the pure energy of mind is able to reach into the limited energy of man."

Bob: The pure energy of a sound, right-functioning, and purified mind is able to reach into and release the limited energy of man. The limited energy being the result of a non-centered or wrongly or ill-functioning brain and sensory system.

gv: the question is whether there is "a" particular mind to become sound or if there is only a particular brain. K is submitting that there is no particular mind. The thinker is thought. It is out of belief that we are separate entities (e.g.- a mind or an Atman, soul, or thinker) that there is effort to become better or more in time. That is why he says the evolution of the psyche is a fallacy. What is thought-derived can not become anything. It is not actual.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #174
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

K:
"Truth, the real God - the real God, not the God that man has made - does not want a mind that has been destroyed, petty, shallow, narrow, limited. It needs a 'healthy mind' to appreciate it; it needs a 'rich mind' - rich, not with knowledge but with 'innocence' - a mind upon which there has never been a scratch of experience, a mind that is free from time. The gods that you have invented for your own comforts accept torture; they accept a mind that is being made dull. But the real thing does not want it; it wants a total, complete human being 'whose heart is full, rich, clear, capable of intense feeling', capable of seeing the beauty of a tree, the smile of a child, and the agony of a woman who has never had a full meal. You have to have this extraordinary 'feeling', this 'sensitivity' to everything - to the animal, to the cat that walks across the wall, to the squalor, the dirt, the filth of human beings in poverty, in despair. You have to be 'sensitive' - which is to 'feel intensely', not in any particular direction, which is not an emotion which comes and goes, but which is to be sensitive with your nerves, with your eyes, with your body, with your ears, with your voice. You have to be sensitive completely all the time. Unless you are so completely sensitive, there is no intelligence. 'INTELLIGENCE (God/Truth/Love/Wisdom?) COMES WITH SENSITIVITY AND OBSERVATION.' " (J. Krishnamurti - 'Book of Life' - 5/1)

gv: interesting that in the above passage K posits a mind to become healthy, sensitive, to become rich with innocence and free of time. See the problem? K speaks often of the illusion of becoming in time and then turns around and speaks in dualistic terms of a mind that can become. Similarly, K says unless you are completely sensitive "all the time" there is no intelligence. But he also said that the desire for continuity or a permanent state is born of man's confusion.

Light does not seek light and what is not of time does not seek continuity in time. When we go into this deeply we find that the mindstate that moves in images of what was and what could be is not dominating consciousness when intelligence is operating. Attention is when the self is not. Which means all self-thought of becoming better or more sensitive or anything else is absent. The richness of emptiness is only something to attain or hold on to when we believe we "exist" separately in "time." You can not grasp for a state of non-grasping or desire to become free of desire to become. If you start with error ( I think therefore I am) you end with error.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #175
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

not

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: Krishnan, may I ask why you say this was a great loss and when RM says it was perhaps actually a gain you immediately agree with that? Similarly you speak admirably of Obama but when RM says Obama and his efforts to bring about change are just more human delusion, you readily agree? Are you trying to avoid an argument or changing your opinion?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #176
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear GREG VAN TONGEREN, thanks for pointing out what I have done consciously.I am aware of that. I do not know whether I agree with all the points made here by BOB(Robert Michael)but I do agree in general terms in line with the expositions he makes on JK lines.Sometimes he comes across as a "mystical" person with more insight&knowledge&experience than me.I am learning from him and about him.The points you made , though correct, are not intended to please or displeaseBOB.I am bringing a news item and trying to probe the AMERICAN MIND(they/you, are the insiders,&not me living outsideUSA)So, I have, no strong opinions on American politics ,because I am new, and inexperienced on this.I take up gladly confrontation with persons if i do not agree. I am here not to please or displease anyone.In general, friendliness helps the smooth flow of the dialogue.In that spirit, I might have overlooked or ignored some points.Anyway thanks for your pointer here.
Regards.
Krishnan

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Sat, 29 Aug 2009.

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #177
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
Do you see what Obama means in saying the perfect is the enemy of the good? The good is here and now. The perfect is just a figment of thought.
The benediction is where you are

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #178
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

emphasized text
These are abstract concepts, like"God" But dear Greg, actuality is inequality,poverty, hidden agendas and self-promotion.Politics of any nation stinks.There is no sanity in it. Like an actor on a theatre scene appears and bound to disappear, BUSHES,OBAMAS and others would vanish from the scene but the human suffering would continue.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

Back to Top
Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #179
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
gv: Is it the psyche that is evolving, or is it spirit evolving and man is a vehicle for that?

gv: self-assertion implies self-image and self-image is thought-derived.

Bob: Is all assertion self assertion, or is there another kind or sort of assertion? Like an assertion of the Beloved, the Sacred, the Other, let's say, through us or from within us? These being terms used by K from time to time. This assertion not being of self and thereby free of self-image and not derived from thought? Or as K has said or alluded to: where the Other is, the self is not. The understanding of which very likely will not be grasped by a mind that is deeply rooted in thought, reason, logic, or analogies.

Or could there be an assertion of a falsely-conditioned and thereby largely inauthentic (or lower)self AND an assertion of a conditioning-free authentic (or higher) self. Or a combination of both that one may or may not be aware of? Or perhaps only somewhat aware of?

gv: What is K pointing to when he says the evolution of the psyche or the self is a fallacy?

Bob: I think I addressed this before, but let's say here that he means that a radical or revolutionary "mutation" of the psyche or the brain won't happen through osmosis or the passage of time alone. That it will also require action and effort on the part of the brain itself.

gv: If self is thought-derived, it can not become anything, right?

Bob: No, some of us can indeed become free of the bondage of the thought-derived self, as you put it. Like K accomplished.

gv: Conditioning or programming can change but no matter how it changes or increases in terms of knowledge and capacity, it is still programming.

Bob: No, again, some of us can transcend our conditioning or programming.

gv: There may be self-reflection as a habit of thought but that doesn't mean there is or ever was a self to become transformed or to attain enlightenment.

Bob: We are the self - the self is us. K said or alluded that self-critical awareness (self-reflection) was necessary. For instance in order to "have integrity", "to free the mind of sorrow".

gv: Light does not seek light. It is luminous by its very nature.

Bob: I think we could say light seeks to ignite other lights or is compelled to do so by its very nature. However are we in fact a light? Are we a bright shining light? Or does our light flicker at times, depending on inner or outer circumstances? Can its brightness be increased? Is our light as bright as K's was? Or perhaps even brighter than his was?

J. K.: Only when the brain has cleansed itself of its conditioning, greed, envy, ambition, then only it can comprehend that which is complete. Love is this completeness. (J. K. - 'K's Notebook')

Here K quite simply points out a goal or ideal state of completeness that can be attained to and the action that's necessary to do so.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #180
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

KS:
emphasized text These are abstract concepts, like"God" But dear Greg, actuality is inequality,poverty, hidden agendas and self-promotion.Politics of any nation stinks.There is no sanity in it. Like an actor on a theatre scene appears and bound to disappear, BUSHES,OBAMAS and others would vanish from the scene but the human suffering would continue.

gv: yes the actuality is that there is poverty. In a perfect world we would bring about an immediate end to all human poverty. Does that mean we take no action to end poverty unless it ends all poverty? You may say that the action taken does not address the root of the problem i.e. man's consciousness. That is so but less poverty here and now though not
"perfect" is still good.

The benediction is where you are

Back to Top
Displaying posts 151 - 180 of 240 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)