Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The US President, OBAMA & his..

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Wed, 08 Jul 2009 #61
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Thanks Bob,I will try my best, Pending Nuclear holocaust, mentioned by you would never come as long as this dialogue taken up by OBAMA with Russians continue...


These talks and dialogues have been going on for decades, Krishnan. And nothing has ever really changed for the better. Different peoples' pockets get filled and their egos get inflated for a time in the process, but inspite of it all the rich continue to get richer and the poor continue to get poorer. And the end times get closer and closer. As more and more bandaids are applied and others are refastened by our leaders to the whole irreparable spiritually and morally bankrupt scheme of things.

There's is no life or love anywhere in this fallen and rapidly decaying human evolutionary scheme of things. But again, a necessary grand-cleansing is soon coming to help right the situation.

Enjoy your days Krishnan,

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Wed, 08 Jul 2009 #62
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Robert Michael wrote:
There's is no life or love anywhere in this fallen and rapidly decaying human evolutionary scheme of things. But again, a necessary grand-cleansing is soon coming to help right the situation.

"In this TORN DESERT WORLD there is no love because pleasure and desire play the greatest roles, yet without love your daily life has no meaning. And you cannot have love if there is no beauty. Beauty is not something you see - not a beautiful tree, a beautiful picture, a beautiful building or a beautiful woman. There is beauty only when your heart and mind know what love is. Without love and that sense of beauty there is no virtue, and you know very well that, DO WHAT YOU WILL, IMPROVE SOCIETY, FEED THE POOR, YOU WILL ONLY BE CREATING MORE MISCHIEF, for without love there is only ugliness and poverty in your own heart and mind. But when there is love and beauty, whatever you do is right, whatever you do is in order. If you know how to love, then you can do what you like because it will solve all other problems." (J. Krishnamurti)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Thu, 09 Jul 2009 #63
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Quietitude is the answer.... acceptance of things as they truly are is the action/non-action,wondering at things as they truly are is the way....................

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 09 Jul 2009 #64
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Quietude is the answer.... acceptance of things as they truly are is the action/non-action,wondering at things as they truly are is the way....................


I can agree here up to a point, Krishnan. Perfect acceptance of things as they are is absolutely vital to one's sanity and brings with it that "quietude." HOWEVER, if we're to be of real service to evolution, and experience the resultant joy to its fullest, RIGHT-ACTION must spring forth from that "quietude", or 'stillness'. Which I feel must go beyond this sort of rather easy dialogue or discussion activity, at least in due time.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #65
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
HOWEVER, if we're to be of real service to evolution, and experience the resultant joy to its fullest, RIGHT-ACTION must spring forth from that "quietude", or 'stillness'. Which I feel must go beyond this sort of rather easy dialogue or discussion activity, at least in due time.
Bob M.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #66
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Bob,Your talk of "evolution" makes me respond:1.I do not believe in the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is incomplete theory without full proof.2.Do you know about
the Danish spiritual teacher called "MARTINUS" and his spiritual evolution theory of COSMOLOGY?Martinus`s The THIRD TESTAMENT is available with all schemes of spritual evolution.Martinus(1890-1981) was a great seer and there is a Martinus movement here in Denmark.My talk of seeking stillness in" my little mind" is the effect accrued from JK contact partially& reading SRI RAMANA,&NISARGADATTA.I do not know why I seek.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #67
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Just another offside here. At the G8 topmeet in Italy, Obama looks at the shapely bottom of a Brazilian woman-great news in the Danish press.So after all, Superman OBAMA is an ordinary human being-that is heart-warming and the curiosity of the Paparazzi press is as usual irritatingly humane(not to forget the greates egoist, Princess Dianas sufferings at their hands).

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #68
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Dear Bob,Your talk of "evolution" makes me respond:1.I do not believe in the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is incomplete theory without full proof.2.Do you know about
the Danish spiritual teacher called "MARTINUS" and his spiritual evolution theory of COSMOLOGY?Martinus`s The THIRD TESTAMENT is available with all schemes of spritual evolution.Martinus(1890-1981) was a great seer and there is a Martinus movement here in Denmark.My talk of seeking stillness in" my little mind" is the effect accrued from JK contact partially& reading SRI RAMANA,&NISARGADATTA.I do not know why I seek.


I think the key here Krishnan is to ultimately have our own views on life, creation, evolution etc. Gathered up from our own understandings of ourselves, our fellows, and the very nature of life.

And anything else is to be a second-hand person, so to speak. And such a person will never attain to a perfectly still mind. From which alone the right answers and direction spring forth.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #69
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

I agree totally with you but one may come across others in ones own path as we cannot shut our eyes to them .

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #70
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Just another offside here. At the G8 topmeet in Italy, Obama looks at the shapely bottom of a Brazilian woman-great news in the Danish press. So after all, Superman OBAMA is an ordinary human being-that is heart-warming and the curiosity of the Paparazzi press is as usual irritatingly humane(not to forget the greates egoist, Princess Dianas sufferings at their hands).


Hi Krishnan,

One surely can't knock Mr. Obama for admiring a pretty woman. Doing so, as you say, is surely only human. The big problem here, as I see it, is that he's too human, or "all-too-human", as Nietzsche would have put it.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #71
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

I agree totally with you but one may come across others in ones own path as we cannot shut our eyes to them .


Yes, this is so, Krishnan. But remember, we can learn things of great edifying value from 'nobodies'. And by doing so save ourselves a lot of time, money, and headaches.

Having a fully awakened, alert, and open mind is the key to it all.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #72
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Former president of India Dr.Abdul Kalam, a scientist in background defined how a leader should be:"A leader will neither be a commander nor a boss, but,he or she should be a visionary, facilitator and a thinker.
Here I do not agree with him"the thinking" of these so-called-poltician-leaders have Abdul wrought many havocs in human life-Dr Kalam is a nice gentleman but "restless" with his "thinking"- So is our hero OBAMA!

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #73
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Former president of India Dr.Abdul Kalam, a scientist in background defined how a leader should be:"A leader will neither be a commander nor a boss, but,he or she should be a visionary, facilitator and a thinker.
Here I do not agree with him"the thinking" of these so-called-poltician-leaders have Abdul wrought many havocs in human life-Dr Kalam is a nice gentleman but "restless" with his "thinking"- So is our hero OBAMA!


Krishnan,

I think a true leader or teacher is someone who himself has been in all the many trenches of life that those he is trying to teach or liberate are in, or have been in. And has fully overcome them all. And with understanding. Of course along with having also fully transcended his own conditioning.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #74
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
So is our hero OBAMA!

I feel it's impossible in these times for a president, any president, to be rigorously honest or truthful. And therefore he can't really be a "hero". At least not according to Emerson's views:

He describes a hero as one who, "Taking both reputation and life in his hand, will, with perfect urbanity, dare the gibbet and the mob, by the absolute truth of his speech and rectitude of his behavior."

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Fri, 10 Jul 2009 #75
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Bob, once again many thanks for your interpretations.
regards,
Krishnan

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Mon, 13 Jul 2009 #76
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

President Obama has just whipped up all the Africans in one-day-whirl-wind-visit to GHANA.If one observes carefully this president seems to be developing a pattern of speech, though comprehensive, summarizing,praising others etc, hits out at the audience with pointed criticism. I hope he can deliver more than his speech in the months and days to come. otherwise he will end up as an academic orator! If one observes the African way of life, one wonders why they should ever aspire to "become" "American"?Why should they ever be neurotic,hyperactive, restless, "angst"-driven OBAMAS? They have their own destiny.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Tue, 14 Jul 2009 #77
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

President Obama has just whipped up all the Africans in one-day-whirl-wind-visit to GHANA. If one observes carefully this president seems to be developing a pattern of speech, though comprehensive, summarizing, praising others etc, hits out at the audience with pointed criticism. I hope he can deliver more than his speech in the months and days to come. Otherwise he will end up as an academic orator! If one observes the African way of life, one wonders why they should ever aspire to "become" "American"? Why should they ever be neurotic,hyperactive, restless, "angst"-driven OBAMAS? They have their own destiny.


People from many countries aspire to become "American", Krishnan. Which only reflects the enormous amount of unrest, ignorance, poverty, hopelessness, injustices, and exploitation that exists throughout the world.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #78
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
People from many countries aspire to become "American", Krishnan. Which only reflects the enormous amount of unrest, ignorance, poverty, hopelessness, injustices, and exploitation that exists throughout the world.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #79
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Bob, thanks. For centuries, the Australian aboriginals lived in harmony with nature, even without ploughing the land they lived on. Their harmony with mother earth is gone now forever. Thery are all becoming alcoholics. The same applies to the tribes and indigenous people from Africa, Americas,and the arctic regions of the world.
Why should Americans decide others awy of life?Let them be.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #80
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Why should Americans decide others way of life? Let them be.

It's far too late now, Krishnan. We got our tentacles and grossly immoral ways deeply set in all around the globe. And it's just a matter of time until the Great Octopus is slain. Or it dies of itself.

Indeed our ways have also driven the American Indians heavily into Alcoholism. Though we too are now suffering greatly from it. Along with drug addiction, both self and professionally prescribed. Indeed, as I see it, it's all downhill for us from here on in, and with no exit.

Our chickens are soon coming home to roost, as Rev. Wright put it.

When Mr. Obama turned his back on his former Pastor, I'm afraid he also turned his back on the Truth. Or certainly a great deal of it.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #81
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

The situation with the tiger (bottom of first page) was that Mrs. Gandhi said to K "I am riding the back of a tiger, but I do not know how to get off its back." K replied: "If you are more intelligent than the tiger, you will know how to deal with the tiger." p. 342

So, perhaps it is not a matter of riding or not riding the tiger (or sheep), but rather how one deals with any of life's challenges that is important.

This post was last updated by Richard Kover Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #82
Thumb_avatar Richard Kover United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
I think a true leader or teacher is someone who himself has been in all the many trenches of life that those he is trying to teach or liberate are in, or have been in. And has fully overcome them all. And with understanding. Of course along with having also fully transcended his own conditioning.

I have read through many of your comments and Krishnan's comments on this thread and find much in the way of understanding the world. Also, many contradictions. The selected text above is a case in point. No matter what trenches one has been in they all point to the same center as the basis for human bondage to conditioning and there will always be new trenches to deal with, so in what sense can one fully overcome them all by arriving at a fixed view point. Not trying to convince you of anything in particular, just puzzled by the sense of a permanent "fully transcended" state when "fully transcended" can just as well be in this moment and then the next moment and never trapped in fixed ideology.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #83
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Richard Kover wrote:

Robert Michael wrote:
I think a true leader or teacher is someone who himself has been in all the many trenches of life that those he is trying to teach or liberate are in, or have been in. And has fully overcome them all. And with understanding. Of course along with having also fully transcended his own conditioning.

I have read through many of your comments and Krishnan's comments on this thread and find much in the way of understanding the world. Also, many contradictions. The selected text above is a case in point. No matter what trenches one has been in they all point to the same center as the basis for human bondage to conditioning and there will always be new trenches to deal with, so in what sense can one fully overcome them all by arriving at a fixed view point. Not trying to convince you of anything in particular, just puzzled by the sense of a permanent "fully transcended" state when "fully transcended" can just as well be in this moment and then the next moment and never trapped in fixed ideology.


By 'fully transcended' I mean essentially being totally aware of the exact nature of the problem with the human species. Along with likewise being fully in touch with the nature of the way out of the darkness. Both of which Krishnamurti was not. And simply and primarily because he had life far too easy and was never totally open and honest about the whole of his own life. A true and effective leader or teacher must above all be a 'clean' and shining example to others, and thereby void of any skeletons in his closet. And it's also my view that K's unresolved or unrighted past came home to roost. Along with the help of some other short-comings. His 'mind trick' of simply dropping, forgetting, or ignoring one's past backfired on him.

Or in other words as follows by a fellow countryman who knew K quite well:

"The ethical problem posed by the behavior of Krishnamurti cannot be ignored. Anyone who lives in the society and makes moral proclamations about it is obliged to be forthright and consistent in word and deed." (Ravi Ravindra - 'Krishnamurti: Two Birds On One Tree')

Also by being "fully transcended" I mean one must have undergone a genuine radical awakening or mutation experience or experiences, and then also be very far along the path of having overcome his conditioning. In which case he could very well be said to be approaching Pure Spiritedness.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 16 Jul 2009.

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #84
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Richard Kover wrote:
So, perhaps it is not a matter of riding or not riding the tiger (or sheep), but rather how one deals with any of life's challenges that is important.

"The perfect man is pure spirit." (Lao Tzu)

How's that for a 'challenge', Richard?

Bob M.

P. S. Such a being no longer "deals" with anything, but rather he simply flows along with whatever life happens to throw his way.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Wed, 15 Jul 2009 #85
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

On "Awareness In Our World Today" and the American Indians:

".....And so I walk the streets, aware of the pervasive ugliness of
the people in this most fortunate nation (USA), the lines of hurt and
anxiety and greed around their eyes and mouths, the imbalance of
their walk, the deformation of their bodies. Oh no it is not genetic.
Civilization has twisted and scarred those bodies as surely as it has
damaged and tortured the face of the planet. And I consider the
subtle hate that often underlies the most casual interchange. And the
specific karma we have built up in this country by our specific
treatment of blacks and Indians and orientals, the result of which we
now suffer and will go on suffering. And the self-righteous hostility
among some of those who march for peace ("Peace On You," one of the
signs reads). And the bristling animosity in some who would loose
their "love" on the world. And the physical and psychic garbage in
the dwelling places of some who proclaim the new lifestyles. And the
elitism and divisiveness among the theorists and activists who would
create a reformed culture. And the growing intranigence of those who
would maintain the old culture. And the impersonal greed of the giant
corporations and unions and governing bureaucracies. And the weight
of the past, the ponderous, ever-pressing, immovable weight, as heavy
as the earth itself....." (George B. Leonard - 'Transformation')

Carl Jung was deeply impressed by a Pueblo chief he met on a visit to
New Mexico in 1924-5. The chief described the alarm that white
Americans inspired in him; "See how cruel the whites look", he
said. "Their lips are thin, their noses sharp, their faces furrowed and
distorted by folds. Their eyes have a staring expression; they are
always seeking something. What are they seeking? The whites always want
something; they are always uneasy and restless. We do not not
understand them. We think they are mad." Jung asked him why he thought
they were mad. "They say that they think with their heads," the chief
replied. "Why of course. What do you think with?" Jung asked him in
surprise. "We think here", the chief said, indicating his heart. (Source Unknown)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Wed, 15 Jul 2009.

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Thu, 16 Jul 2009 #86
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
They say that they think with their heads," the chief replied. "Why of course. What do you think with?" Jung asked him in surprise. "We think here", the chief said, indicating his heart. (Source Unknown)

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 16 Jul 2009 #87
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks Bob for your summary above and especially the Indian chief`s answer to Jung.
Yes one can live using the Heart instead of using the Head/Brain !That means not headless or brainless but thinking with the heart/emotions/feelings.... Very nice.Thanks.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 16 Jul 2009 #88
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:

Thanks Bob for your summary above and especially the Indian chief`s answer to Jung.
Yes one can live using the Heart instead of using the Head/Brain !That means not headless or brainless but thinking with the heart/emotions/feelings.... Very nice.Thanks.


Hi Krishnan,

Yes, one really 'must' live being deeply in touch with his heart if he is to ever know and experience Love and that extraordinary dimension or state of Immensely Spirited Being that K spoke of and experienced much of the time. Without which one will only continue to input more and more violence into our presently dark and violent world and suffer the consequences.

However, today more is known than what Jung, the Pueblo chief, and even K knew about the matter. That being, due to our ever increasingly fallen, violent, or love-lacking human conditioning, that the critical 'intuitive mechanism' (or "heart, emotions, and feelings" matrix) has been mis-wired and is thereby irreparably damaged in the vast majority of human beings.

As a result only a relatively small number of people can ever be restored to sanity, wholeness, or fullness of being. Which means that a radically different approach or teaching than K's, and many others, is needed in order to bring genuine and lasting Light into the world.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 16 Jul 2009.

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Fri, 17 Jul 2009 #89
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

More "Awareness In Our World Today":

"Our universe is not merely bankrupt; there remains no dividend at all; it has not simply liquidated; it has gone clean out of existence, leaving not a wrack behind.....The writer sees the world as a jaded world devoid of recuperative power. In the past he has liked to think that man could pull out of his entanglements and start a new creative phase of human living. In the face of our universal inadequacy, that optimism has given place to a stoical cynicism.....Ordinary man is at the end of his tether. Only a small, highly adaptable minority of the species can possibly survive." [H. G. Wells]

"Jesus was not too successful. He was too original, too far ahead of his time, and too optimistic."

"Ethics have not saved the world, but remains a splendid vision which a few sensitive persons in each generation have grasped; but which the Christian Church has never succeeded in putting into practice."

"We are living today under the sign of the collapse of civilization."

"The suicide of civilization is in progress."

"All things are now possible. Man can hardly even recognize the devils of his own creation."

[Albert Schweitzer]

"A man rich with worldly riches, or a man rich in knowledge and belief, will never know anything but darkness, and will be the center of all mischief and misery." [J. Krishnamurti]

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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Mon, 20 Jul 2009 #90
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

J. Krishnamurti said:
"A man rich with worldly riches, or a man rich in knowledge and belief, will never know anything but darkness, and will be the center of all mischief and misery." [J. Krishnamurti]

Dear K,

I find it's the rare man or woman who is rich with deeply penetrating Knowledge of Themselves that soar high into the skies as you once somewhat alluded to.

"We have our roots in the earth, which we have and must have, but we cling or crawl on the earth; only a 'Few' soar into the skies. They Are The Only Creative And Happy People. The rest spoil and destroy each other on this lovely earth, by hurt and likewise gossip." (J. Krishnamurti)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

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