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Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves?

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Fri, 14 Aug 2009 #1
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

In the beginning, there were gatherers, then came Pythogoras,the Hindus,Buddhists and Jains.Now comes the emission problems and CO2 problems, global warming to warn us against factory-production of meat for eating.Among the 62 known genera of living primates,60 are fruit, vegetable and nut eaters,42 are insect eaters,23 are eaters of birds and/or their eggs, 4 are carrion eaters, 16 are hunters of small animals and finally MAN is the only eater of large animals.Now he can factory-produce them at the cost of ecology. Is it necessary for humans to consume meat?Is it wise to continue to do so?I am not advocating vegetarianism for the individual here but I am asking, is it wise to produce animals for consumption at a factory level? In Denmark, we have 5 million people but we have 70 million pigs produced for( factory-level production)human consumption/export etc. Now they talk about land and water being polluted. What are your thoughts and what is the status in your country?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sat, 15 Aug 2009 #2
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Krish, you have raised a popular topic, that has been discussed a lot. According to me, vegetarianism is just one of the numerous characteristics of a natural or a liberated state of mind. Let me delve further.

According to me, (which no one needs to accept, but only can understand), whole universal matter has been basically distinguished as living and non-living things. Living beings can be distinguished to three types. First being plants, which have life, but have no center (brain) to perceive, hence they do not experience pain. Second are the animals, who can perceive and are guided entirely by their urges (defensive and procreative), and have no misery.

Third is mankind, which can perceive pain, but even capable of being above their urges, because of their enormous amount of consciousness.
Unfortunately the consciousness is fragmented or divided and the natural remaining part is perceiving this fragmented or restless state of mind as misery. To escape from this misery, the consciousness indulges habitually in thinking or scanning the memory. Thereby misery is only temporarily avoided.

Mankind alone suffers from 'misery', which is also the only problem of mankind. The misery is nothing but inaccurate and false replay of the defensive urge, which we call as 'fear'. This fear leads to unnecessary desires and indulgences in various activities, which includes eating not easily digestible food, when not hungry and also in abnormal quantities. This ultimately becomes a habit.

I will respond after some others give their views to this.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sat, 15 Aug 2009 #3
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Meat-eating worldwide produces environmental pollution on a massive scale.Algae-choked Italian lakes,murky Cheasapeake bay, O2 starved Baltic Sea, polluted Adriatic Sea are all polluted by animal wastes, fertiliser-run-off,human sewage urban and industrial pollution.Ruminant animals release about 80million tons of gas each year in belches and farts, while animal-wastes and feedlots and farms emit 35 million tons.Livestock account for 15-20% of global metane emissions.the present day rearing habits at factory-level production of animals is out of alignment with earth`s eco-systems.

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Sun, 16 Aug 2009 #4
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 33 posts in this forum Offline

Krish, I think meat eating is only one of the numerous characteristics of the prevalent psychological state. If man merely stops eating meat, I don't think all problems will be solved. What do you think ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

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Sun, 16 Aug 2009 #5
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Prasanna P wrote:

Krish, I think meat eating is only one of the numerous characteristics of the prevalent psychological state. If man merely stops eating meat, I don't think all problems will be solved. What do you think ?


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Sun, 16 Aug 2009 #6
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, it is part of the manifolded problems we face on this ever-threatened earth.The American naturalist HENRY BESTON,describing his life on Cape Cod, in his book THE OUTERMOST HOUSE(1928) writes:"we need another and a wiser and perhaps, a more mystical concept of animals.we patronise them for their incompleteness, their tragic fate of having taken from so far below ourselves.And therin we err and err greatly.for the animal shal not be measured by man.In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall nevber hear.they are not brethern;they are not underlings;they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth"
No one has ever summarized the mystery of animal existence so profoundly.Emperor Asoka understood the psychology of suffering of his fellow men and fellow creatures.
The modern man with his factory production of animals can never understand it.

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Sun, 16 Aug 2009 #7
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

If It was not for St.Paul and his Pauline christianity colonising a large part of the world, Manicheanism could have survived with its vegetarianism. Today we see, meat consumption rising in China,Hungary, former Czechoslovokia and the ARAB world.It seems meat consumption is irrevocably entwined with status and wealth and it is these concepts as well as Christian tenets of belief that underpin the desire for meat.these fads and beliefs must come to an end for the survival of the Earth & humankind.

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Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes Krish, I think vegetarianism is the answer to most of our problems, individually, socially, morally as well as environmentally. My husband and I gave up meat when we were very young. We decided that very innocently after having a philosophical discussion the way young people do but we realised with time that by just giving up meat we freed ourselves from many forms of conditioning. It was like a package deal to say no to numerous ideological biasis, the myth of man the noble hunter, man the predator that justifies the exploitation of other human beings, etc.,the list is quite long. The other people's reaction was also very instructive, starting with our poor parents who were so worried about our health and wondering if we had joined some sect...Most people feel offended that we do not consider their food as fit for consumption; its a very touchy matter, more than religion I would say.
There are many good reasons to become a vegetarian and yes nowadays the environment is probably the best reason but the problem is that objectivity does not work very well, food is a very subjective matter as you know. We used to discuss a lot before as we were often invited to justify ourselves, but we don't anymore because no matter what we say the bottom line for those who eat meat is that they enjoy it, they like the taste, so there is nothing we can reply to that. This is one case where K. is definitely right, the decision to not eat meat has to come from within. People who become vegetarian through persuasion, because its better for their health for example usually go back to their old habits after a while. My daughter is vegetarian since birth. I explained to her when she was young that their is no big difference between eating meat and cannibalism. She could have switched to eating meat once an adult but she did't and I must say I am proud of her. A friend once asked if she would ever eat meat and she answered "never, unless I find myself lost in the woods and would have no choice but to catch an animal and kill it myself. She understood that today those that eat meat although they like to identify themselves with the noble hunter, are in fact living like scavengers (not sure its the right word), eating dead animals they have not killed themselves. Yes, freeing oneself from all that meat eating business is surely the first step to take for spiritual development. My grandson is being raised as a vegetarian. Apart from his diet, he is just like any other little boy; he likes fighting and big trucks... Now I don't think that being a vegetarian makes one automatically a superior being, that would be too easy, but it surely helps.

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Sat, 29 Aug 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Katy Pompilis United Kingdom 1 post in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

pollixenie dritsas wrote:
Now I don't think that being a vegetarian makes one automatically a superior being, that would be too easy, but it surely helps.

Hello Pollixinie,

Perhaps vegetarianism of itself doesn't make one automatically a superior being. However, one's compassion is definitely enhanced by this action.
(I aspire to veganism which is even more anarchic!)

'True understanding is found through compassion' (Yogi tea tag)

Thanks, Krishnan, for taking the time to include statistical info...

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #10
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for the comments from Pollixinie Dristas & Katy Pompilis- for the descriptions, very personal stories, shared here with us all- I agree that being a vegetarian ,enhances the sensitivity of a person. In my personal experience,I am a born vegetarian(Brahmin caste from Tamil Nadu, India)but for a few years was compelled to eat meat-products owing to non-availability of vegetables and I found myself gross& very insensitive in my behavour due to that. After I had some out -of- the- body-experiences, I have totally given up eating meat,egg etc.I agree eating meat is a sort ofr cannibalism.Plants are also living things but animals are more close to humanbeings.Nowadays whenever I communicate with my dead elders through prayers at fullmoon days, it is essential that I am free from meat.So I have rejoined vegetarianism. Ones sensitivity is ensured and enhanced by being vegetarian in food habits.
If you are interested, please read COLIN SPENCER:VEGETARIANISM,a history.
PUBLISHED BY:FOUR WALLS EIGHT WINDOWS,NEW YORK ,LONDON.
ISBN:1:56858-238-2(hc)

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #11
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 6 posts in this forum Offline

Man is the only animal that broke his covenant with nature and animals. He only knows how to destroy and kill for pleasure. Nature is forever forgiving to man. How long?

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #12
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
Man is the only animal that broke his covenant with nature and animals. He only knows how to destroy and kill for pleasure. Nature is forever forgiving to man. How long?

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Sun, 30 Aug 2009 #13
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Mankind has lost touch with its own nature and that is the chaos we are amidst at present.How can man live in harmony with NATURE? but then NAture gives mankind its feedbacks from time to time-such as pollutions, globalwarming etc.So man is a slow learner in communication with ther INTELLIGENCE that is prevalent in NATURE:

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #14
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I noticed that people tend to use their intelligence to protect their ignorance. We indeed become very smart when it comes to defending ignorance, our good old ways of life. Thus one argument I often heard to defend meat eating is that plants are living creatures too, so there is nothing morally superior to being a vegetarian...my guideline is quite simple: you do not eat anything that tries to escape when you want to have it and only plants do not try to escape, all other creatures do, even the smallest and most insignificant refuse to die. As for cannibalism, in cultures who practiced it, the victim was not considered as a human being although he was. We evolved from such a cultural bias as we may say and so vegetarianism is a step further in connecting with the 'other'.

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krish, thanks for the ref. Now you say that we lost touch with nature, that is true but I wonder if mankind ever felt in touch-Sree in another discussion said that humans are like orphans and I like the idea, it seems that mankind has always felt a stranger to his world. The Inuit, for example explained to the first white man that tried to understand their religion ''We don't beleave, we fear''. Yes, man is a slow learner as he has to figure out everything by himself, like an orphan with no role model, so he makes up role models himself.

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #16
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Pollixenie Dristas,thanks for your post.It is interesting the fear of the unknown amighty Nature drove them to the religion for ther Inuits!
Why to be in touch with Nature?. One is not in touch with ones "self" and one`s body for that matter. And infants cannot choose but children as they grow they can choose what they want. But then comes the dear parents(grandparents and others) to condition ones behaviour, eating habits etc.Not to speak of the Society with its Bible,sanctioning that man is the Master over all animals etc. So where does one get the opportunity to be in touch with ones own real NATURE?Not to speak of the external NATURE!

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Tue, 01 Sep 2009.

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Tue, 01 Sep 2009 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med xyz XYZ Egypt 12 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

We are far from the original question, but its getting very interesting. Krish, There is one question I hesitated to ask until now. You almost touched it, about child rearing. When we speak of conditioning we usually think of the bad side to it, that which keeps us from being free, from finding our true nature, from evolving, etc. Now a child is conditioned to behave in such a way as to be able to live in society. We teach children to share their toys, to be polite and know when to say thanks and when to say please,etc. Now all children are possessive and must learn not to be. Some are agressive and have to be conditioned not to hit other people and to be nice to animals,etc. If we decide that conditioning is not such a good thing after all, we assume that humanity is naturally good and that conditioning is perversive, a sort of diabolique instrument society has invented to prevent us from attaining our true nature. How can that be? Can I decide that I have been conditioned to think I should not kill, that I should not steal, that I should be nice to other people. Would it be ok if I decided that my true nature is to be anti-social and why should I respect nature considering that I feel morally obliged to and I don't like feeling morally obliged to anything....I mean, I have been conditioned to beleave that I prefer to be a better person than a bad person because I have been conditioned to want respect and affection. It is not clear that we come to this world absolutely free from all the bad sides to being human, possessiveness, jealousy, agressiveness, disobedience,etc. that's all part of our human nature. So this is my personal delemma, my paradoxe. Would you say its universal? If its all about conditioning, can we chose another path than the spiritual one, is it ok once we take the decision to free ourselves, to chose to become wild so to speak even at the risk of ending up in a jail or a mental hospital. In other words where does disobediance fit in the deconditioning process.

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Wed, 02 Sep 2009 #18
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

What I refer here, is the kind of food habits, we give our children.The drinks(coca-cola to beer, vodka,jin&whisky, coffe &tea etc).Each person in his body is unique and we impose from childhood onwards this despicable meat-comnsuming behaviour.Dear Pollixenie Dristas, you are referring to the Totality of child-rearing through conditioning. I agree with you there are bad& good ways of doing this.Look at the world today, we have problems of alcoholism,drug-addiction,delinquency,criminality among children and youth in every country.We are all responsible for it.Governmental organizations cannot cope with it alone.
Here the point is, on vegetarianism, and it could save the world. Sensitivity is being lost among humans because of this monstrous food habit.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Sensitivity is being lost among humans because of this monstrous food habit.

Dear Krishnan,

I still eat meat, though rather minimally compared to the past. And I don't feel like I'm a monster or have a "monstrous habit".

Nor do I feel eating meat is the cause of the gross human insensitivity that I see all around me. Rather I feel it is due to the lack of love and discipline in the early and critical formative years of our lives.

Though if we refuse to look deeply into this simple issue (which I feel is the case with most of us), and from the viewpoint of both a child and a parent, then I think we'll tend to look everywhere else under the sun for the root of the human dilemma. Everywhere except in our very own backyards.

"Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves?"

I think not! Learning how to love again is the answer, the "must"!

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 04 Sep 2009.

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Fri, 04 Sep 2009 #20
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Bob,
I agree to disagree with you on this. Imagine how the oceans are being depleted for the fish,how industial production of pigs, cows and polutry is leading us to unending spiral of pollution.Yesterdays news here ,in Denmark_Drinking water is polluted with fæces (of animals&human origin) in 200 local water authorities.There are reports of unending diarrhera-like debilitating diseases among the town-dwellers! E Coli bacteria in potable drinking water supplied by authorities(70million pigs are reared here on an industrial scale for a population of 5 million)_
Facts speak for themselves.It is not a personal attack on non-Vegetarians including you ,BOB! Acutality demands action.That is why it is a" must" if we do not intend to end up in pollution catastrophe on this delicate Earth!

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Sat, 05 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 116 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote:
Dear Bob, I agree to disagree with you on this. Imagine how the oceans are being depleted for the fish, how industial production of pigs, cows and polutry is leading us to unending spiral of pollution.Yesterdays news here, in Denmark_Drinking water is polluted with fæces (of animals&human origin) in 200 local water authorities. There are reports of unending diarrhera-like debilitating diseases among the town-dwellers! E Coli bacteria in potable drinking water supplied by authorities(70million pigs are reared here on an industrial scale for a population of 5 million). Facts speak for themselves. It is not a personal attack on non-Vegetarians including you, BOB! Acutality demands action.That is why it is a" must" if we do not intend to end up in pollution catastrophe on this delicate Earth!

Dear Krishnan,

You still don't see the big picture here. Seems you still have too much of the political mind in you yet. One that still sees largely through the prism of self and somehow thinks there are workable human answers for the fallen or spiritually and morally bankrupt state of man. No, Krishnan, there are none. Not until 90% or so of the world's population perishes (which is soon going to take place), will sanity, peace, and true brotherhood be restored again to man and the earth. At which time the earth will heal itself rather quickly, and there'll be plenty of everything to go around again, including safe-to-eat pork chops.

I was pondering today whether Mr. Obama would ever have the courage to go before the nation and point out its real problem. That being again its spiritually and morally bankrupt and thereby near-totally Godless state.

Martin Luther King Jr. once said that he longed for the day when a man will be judged by the content of his character rather than the color of his skin. What a wise and powerful statement. Yet who, I ask, and especially among our leaders, our shining examples?, has any concern about the content of anyone's character, and especially their own. But it's really far, far to late for this anyway. A turn-around is no longer at all possible under any circumstances. The great American party of greed, wealth, power, hubris, privilege, and prestige is soon coming to an end. And the sooner the better, as there's no life nor love nor sanity anywhere anyway. Nothing but wall-to-wall self-centeredness.

And to think on Tuesday Mr. Obama is going to speak to the nation's school students in order to try to encourage them to conscientiously apply themselves and do their very best to become successful, accomplished, and outstanding members of our profoundly sick society. This only helps to reassure me how blind and lost the man really is, as are they all in Washington.

So keep on pointing out the problems, Krishnan, if it makes you feel any better. But trust me, the bandaids man has been putting on his many problems for decades are about ready to all bust loose. Meanwhile my joy and peace of mind stems from striving to be a part of the real solution.

"Our present education is rotten because it teaches us to love success and not what we are doing. The result has become more important than the action." (J. K.)

"The future belongs to those who give the next generation reason to hope." (Teilhard De Chardin)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sun, 06 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #22
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 23 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Krishnan - Thank you for raising this subject.

Quite apart from the matters already raised in this thread about worldwide disease and pollution resulting from mankind's unnecessary desire to eat animal flesh and products, there is also the sensitivity factor.

K spoke constantly of the deep sensitivity required for the human brain to understand its own disorder and to bring about change.

He also said that, while vegetarianism and veganism will not on its own change the human brain, there CAN BE NO CHANGE while one is consuming animal flesh.

Why talk about 'love' when at the same time one is blindly and irresponsibly contributing to the suffering of fellow sentient beings on our planet because of the desire to eat animal flesh? Where is the 'love' in that?

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #23
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Quite apart from the matters already raised in this thread about worldwide disease and pollution resulting from mankind's unnecessary desire to eat animal flesh and products, there is also the sensitivity factor.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #24
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for emphasizing the sensitivity factor,Patricia.Here in Denmark in the past 3 months several dogs(special types ,like roteweiler,amstff and other kind of attacking types)have attacked human beings and there is a hue and cry about stopping or prohibiting the rearing of these dogs at homes ,as pets. People seem to have lost sensitivity to each other so much that they keep up rearing these dogs to the detriment of neigbours, children and passers-by. So where can sensitivity come from when one keeps eating meat? What is the difference between these dogs that eat meat and the man who keeps them to attack others with them?He also consumes huge quantities of meat compared to 60 years back(as per latest statistics from the Health Research Institute here in DK)The more we eat such things ,grosser and sicklier we become and where can sensitivity spring from?There is no room to talk of love and only "money" and Prestige counts.
Every little thing that we do to our own delicate bodies have a telling effect on the long run by way of incurable illnesses and what we do on a larger scale to this delicate Earth has its own consequences too.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

This post was last updated by Krishnan Srinivasan Sun, 06 Sep 2009.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #25
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 6 posts in this forum Offline

We humans are not healthy eating these deadly 10 S, we are better off not having in our diet. These are, Salt, suger, smoking, spirits, saturated fats, starches, saccharine, stimulants, snacks, and substitutes.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #26
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 23 posts in this forum Offline

Quite clearly there is a strong link between meat consumption and aggression. In all creatures of the earth, including humans.

And the increasing decline in health - both physical and mental health - is directly linked to the increased amounts of animal flesh consumed, as you say Krishnan. The body has become so insensitive it does not even feel the damage being done to it until it succumbs to cancer, diabetes, obesity or heart disease.

Obviously, for the human body to be deeply sensitive and healthy, a diet of fresh organic vegetables, grains and legumes, fruits and clean water - (a diet free of meat, animal products, alcohol, drugs, artificial foods and stimulants) - is absolutely essential.

Pure sea-salt is all right in small quantities. Salt is only a problem when eaten along with a meat diet, as it combines to clog up the body even further - as does cane sugar. But there are natural sugars in fruit.

The secret is to eat only pure, incorporated (as in 'whole'), organically grown fresh-from-the-garden fruit and vegetables, along with grains and legumes. And to drink fresh water and pure (not bottled) fruit juices.

If you look back to tribal societies, meat was generally eaten when the men of the tribe were about to go off to fight. Now we give it to children and send them off to school and wonder at the playground aggression being displayed.

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #27
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

You have succintly put it, Patricia, thanks.Scientists are encouraged to grow meat in the lab artificially but nobody encourages them to study the actual biological effects of the various products humans continue to consume limitlessly.Imagine if such a research was undertaken, the fate of MacDonaLDS,Alchoholic beverage producers,&CoCoCola producers, canned meat producers etc.... ?

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #28
Thumb_february_26-_birthday_pics_and_ebay_001 Greg Van Tongeren United States 28 posts in this forum Offline

Isn't vegetarianism like every other "ism," a divisive philosophy as to what should be? Another belief-system as to what is moral and what is not?

Where non-human animals, fish, and fowl eat other creatures, is that unnatural for them? Or is that part of the natural order of things? If it is
natural for them, are you saying man is different or better than that?
Or perhaps that he should be?

The benediction is where you are

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #29
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

Greg Van Tongeren wrote:
Isn't vegetarianism like every other "ism," a divisive philosophy as to what should be? Another belief-system as to what is moral and what is not?

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Sun, 06 Sep 2009 #30
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 322 posts in this forum Offline

One cannot categorize vegetarianism as an "ism" and belief-system and try to dismiss it ,as you attempt at, dear GV Tongeren. We are pointing out the consequences of unmitigtaed violence inflicted upon fellow creatures on this Earth and the gross consumer nature. It is not an ism.It is an actual fact of what is obtaining todays world. One does not need to be an arrogant philosopher to be sensitive to ones own body and ones own envron. As the saying goes "it is Sofie`s choice.......

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