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Forum: Awareness in our world today

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 33 in total
Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Thu, 24 Dec 2009

RICK LEIN wrote:

Prasanna P wrote: From time immemorial, vested interests have been generally very clever to meet their objectives. Could it also be a trap, to awaken the sleeping critics to dump him finally ???? In american politics of the 60's we had some public figures who attempted to act for the betterment of man kind,Pres.John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, Martin L. King,as well as Ghandi in India. Doing things contrary to the vested interest produced some pretty horrible results for these men. The sad truth is public figures come and go, the vested interest remain.So far it seems as if Pres. Obama has the right combination of abilities to make a difference,However if the vested interest do not meet their objectives,they will find a way of turning public opinion against him, which certain factions began already.There are a million other ways i would like my tax dollars spent,than to build more bombs,weapons,ect. THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Yes Rick, it is the problem world wide. It is time these public figures took at least one lesson on K. I don't think any public figure other than Late Mrs Indira Gandhi, gave some credence to the teachings of K. Can hundreds of peace prizes help mankind with with one K's mind ? Until the truth is opened from its package and laid bare, it can't set any one free.

When I met a well known and highly awarded personality recently in a book exhibition, I asked him how he thought of K. He simply answered K was undoubtedly a great man, but then he had come there to see how his own books were going !!!

Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Tue, 22 Dec 2009

Krish, Don't you see a possibility of a design? By bestowing the nobel, isn't he forced to (end) the war on terrorism ? Though, surely he can do better than others.

Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order Mon, 23 Nov 2009

I have got and thanks for it. You may delete your copy. I will get back to you shortly.

Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order Mon, 16 Nov 2009

gb, thanks for this. I couldn't get hold of it, as I was pre occupied on something else. Can you give some excerpts on it ?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 14 Nov 2009

Paul Lanzon wrote: I hesitate to judge the aboriginal people of Australia, who do eat animals

Yes. You can't judge them, since they're aboriginals, not the so called 'civilized' like us!

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 14 Nov 2009

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote: Is it not time to think over the population Exploison? Is it not high time we all become vegetarians as well as consume less energy & resources?....

Krish, in a recent marriage function that I attended, nearly a thousand guests were sitting comfortably in the choultry. When a friend asked me the same question, I pointed out how come so many people are comfortably sitting in this space. He replied that people are sitting quietly because the because the choultry is comfortable. My next question was, similarly can't we make this world comfortable for all of us.

According to me, non-vegetarianism, population explosion and other innumerable problems of mankind are merely the results of a disorder in the mind. Instead of removing each problem, perhaps it is easier to focus on the disorder of the mind. What do you think?

Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order Sat, 14 Nov 2009

Randal Shacklett wrote: Can we have a new order in the world, as long as the mind is dis-ordered? Isn't the old world order, simply a reflection of humanities insanity?

All presently available orders are merely intellectual. What is require is the actual order, which is in nature, which has to dawn in our minds. When the 'dis' goes off in the disorder, naturally the order remains. We can't abandon our objective of bringing order, by merely saying that we are in disorder and hence whatever we do will be adding to disorder only.

It is possible by the 'disorderly mind' to bring order not by addition, but by subtraction. Presently, each addition is increasing the disorder, as follows. disorder in the world + disorderly action = increased disorder. Whereas it is different here below.

disorderly world - disorder in our own mind = order in the world. Because the order in the world is comprised of both 'what is' and 'what is being perceived by the disorderly mind, which are presently different. Since the second or latter is (emotionally perceived to be) different, responses are adding to further disorder. When both are same, the responses will not add, but end the situations of disorder.

At the outset, it looks ridiculous, but on second look, it may make some sense.

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Sat, 24 Oct 2009

Patricia Hemingway wrote: Forget 'simplifying human psychology'. It is a myth - so end it!

Hi Pat, it is nice to see you after a long time that we discussed together. You are very senior in K circles and forums and I have great regards to you. When you say something is a myth, you may also explain how it is for others to understand. I agree that Psychology may not have unraveled the human mind so far. Nevertheless its objective isn't lost.

K asked us to use him as a mirror to throw away after use. Until we throw away that mirror, we can't see the reality of K or anything around us. Haven't we made K as a myth, by not seeing the reality of his teachings ?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 24 Oct 2009

The fundamental issue is whether the brain cells, which have been conditioned, can really bring about a mutation in themselves. - J. Krishnamurti, Kinfonet Quote of the day Oct 24, 2009 >

Without mutation, perhaps mankind may not be able to think rationally.

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 24 Oct 2009

Krish, You aren't wrong. I wasn't even trying to find any anamoly in your discussions. I was simply trying to say that if human mind was protected enough to grow and function in its natural way, then perhaps mankind wouldn't over indulge at all. Present overindulgence is neither by discretion nor by lack of knowledge about the harmful effects of eating animal products. What do you think?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 24 Oct 2009

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote: The food we put in our body operates our MIND!

The reverse could also be true. Man's actions including eating are guided by his mind.

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Fri, 23 Oct 2009

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote: Dear Prasanna, thanks for the clear explanation as quoted above by you.>

Thanks, Krish for your generous view. I feel simplifying human psychology is far more vital and essential to mankind than most other works of research that are underway.

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Thu, 22 Oct 2009

Krish, yes it is a growing phenomenon, like beatles or TM or Osho. Undoubtedly, he is a man to be watched. Very often when people become more or less free in their minds, they begin to talk about vegetarianism. They think that vegetarianism may have caused them to become free. It may be the other way round. Freedom makes them less indulgent and hence vegetarians.

Here also we have some vegetarians, who are greedy and think dangerously and also there are some non-vegetarians, who think humanely and generously, which you may say as exceptions. Be that as it may, I think non-vegetarianism is more out of over indulgence, rather than a qualitative aberration. In other words, I would like to put it that when people become less indulgent, they become vegetarians on their own. What do you think ?

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Thu, 22 Oct 2009

Paul Lanzon wrote: Being as he frequently stated, impossible for the fragment to perceive the whole.>

This point is worth examining. It means two things. Firstly, the fragmented mind can never perceive the whole, since we are fragmented, it ends the discussion and we may go home. Secondly, the fragmented mind may have to become unfragmented in order to perceive the whole. Soon it raises another query as to 'how?' it can be done. K's response is 'you can't ask this question because, there is no how !!". Then also you may go home. Both ways we are in C-22 like situation.

With due respects to K, my humble finding is that the 'conditioning is knowledge specific'. Let me briefly explain as below. 1. It is the intelligence or consciousness that is getting conditioned or bonded, but by specific concepts of knowledge only. 2. It is like voltage fluctuation in power supply, while scanning particular data only. Yet, the problem isn't with data, but with power supply, which is the 'I'.
3. 'fragmentation or conditioning of intelligence isn't same, equal or common in all. It varies from person to person, and further in each person, from one intellectual area to another.

K also said that to be aware, or completely attentive all the time was not possible, which may explain why there seems to be differences in levels of awareness.>

I think the former can't be the reason for the latter. Let us go slow. Being totally aware all the time is nothing but being in meditation for ever. Then there is no usage of memory and hence no thinking and obviously no speech and no interaction between human beings. Man can live and die without misery in 'birth to death' or constant lifelong meditation, by meeting only requirements of life like breathing, eating, sleeping and attending to nature's calls. There are many such sanyasins here and in himalayas, who talk seldom or never. However, I think, it may not amount to fulfillment of one's life. When the intelligence becomes fully aware, it understands itself and the problems facing mankind and the cause for that. Then it is also capable of ending the cause, which is nothing but misery or distorted perception.

Meditating always may be neither necessary nor desirable. What is essential is the ability to meditate when necessary, by volition, by own judgment and that too in challenging or provoking situations, to get the right answer or response. All human problems are multiplying due to un-intelligent, though they are matching responses.

Please note that 'voluntary thinking' is not due to inattention. I don't know, why K didn't like to use this term. According to me, all of us do it quite often, besides involuntary thinking, which of course takes place often due to inattention.

The fact is that presently human attention is divided (in various proportions in various humans) and due to that, the response from usage of memory has become haphazard, mechanical and involuntary. In undivided attention, memory usage will be as necessary and as accurate as possible for ending the situations without traces of ill will, which otherwise motivates further haphazard interactions.

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Wed, 21 Oct 2009

Krish, you may like this one.

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Tue, 20 Oct 2009

nick carter wrote: We are here to talk about the fragmentation that we are because it's all we know. The "unfragmented mind" is just an idea, a concept, to the fragmented mind, so what can it have to say that is not speculation, imagination?>

'Un-fragmented mind' may be a newly coined word. But it is merely the opposite of the fragmented mind. Both are among the contents of knowledge. But realization of 'fragmentation' leads to defragmentation. Because the realizer is original, natural, dynamic and indomitable.

Fragmented part is static, which is the obstacle causing hazy and inaccurate perception. The extra ordinary characteristic of the human consciousness, is that the original unfragmented part can regain its lost or dominated 'territory' (of course it is energy, and not land) and become one or whole.

Present effort to get rid of the obstacle is amounting to feeding energy to both parts, thus continuing the status quo. Total seriousness or focused attention or dereliction, leads to the annihilation of the obstacle.

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Paul Lanzon: Doesn't the misery rest upon the belief and identification with the ego? > Pras: Paul, I am going look at this issue with lesser amount of terminology and intellectual exercise. Please don't hesitate to point out, where I am not clear.

Yes. Whatever it may rest upon, the fact remains that the misery is the perception of free consciousness. Further, that perception is of the 'restless, imbalanced, distorted, disturbed or abnormal state' of its own fragmented part'. Generally misery is seen only when a new situation is being perceived, as entire consciousness has to attend to it, but a part of it is fragmented and working 'not in sync' with the basic, original or the free part.

PL: ....which is a kind of perpetual hunger to become.>

Pras: Yes. As long as there is this 'misery' or the 'restlessness' in perception, there is this perpetual hunger to become free from it.

PL: The effort to free oneself from the fragmentation is only to strengthen it -> Pras: Intellectual exercises can only become a habit, since diversion, pleasure or escape from misery are only temporary. Intellectual exercises can't alter the level of fragmentation, because they are mere indulgence of consciousness in memory.

It depends on what exactly you mean by effort. Generally effort involves utilisation of energy. If the consciousness merely indulges in intellectual exercises, then obviously it is of no use, because it can't bring a change in its own basic structure.

There is no effort or utilisation of energy in what I am saying. It is the free consciousness effortlessly or silently observing the 'pressure on it by the fragmented part'. It is the 'seriousness' that triggers mutation or a change in the basic structure of consciousness to its normal or natural state. It consequently results in conflictless perception and responses.

PL: it would be better to stay with the fragmentation and just be aware of the processes going on - not to be too concerned about any outcome.>

Pras: I am also meaning the same, but may be with words that are different from K. If I can emphasise it, it should be 'totally unconcerned' with idea of outcome.

PL: I am not sure that the unfragmented consciousness could be in bondage. >

Pras: The awareness, perception and responses are the function of the free consciousness. The awareness of the bondage, influence, domination or pressure by its own fragmented part is perceived by free consciousness. It is very subtle, because almost always an external cause is blamed for the perception of misery.

PL: Perhaps to a very minor extent, but then that would be only a partially unfragmented mind.>

Pras: Total bondage doesn't even call for any remedy. It can only be partial, but this is in a very vast spectrum, because consciousness in whole mankind is fragmented in a vast range, causing a hierarchy of intelligence (see TFI) with least fragmented minds at the top and most fragmented ones at the bottom of it. Visible financial hierarchy in the world should not be mistaken for it, though in a few areas they may overlap.

My observations at some places could appear to be slightly different from that of K. He generalised that people are either completely free or not at all free and there is nothing in between. It is like 'all or none' principle. This won't explain, why there is such a vast difference in levels of understanding in various people.

PL: Do you mean in moments of insight you see the bondage? I guess that would be true, but the insight must be all-embracing. And that habit-energy is not going to disappear without persistent attention - but no strained effort.>

Pras: I don't think it is impossible to see our bondage. Identify what you are doing regularly or habitually for pleasure or for diversion. Deny or stop doing that for a day or even few days. The misery arises soon possibly even with anger.

Insight means to me the clarity in that particular situation. There is no possibility of insight in an intellectual area where the bondage is evident.

nick carter: Actually, it's an excellent point. The fragmented mind knows nothing about the "unfragmented mind", so it really has no business speaking of or trying to imagine such a thing. The fragmented mind is malfunction, and when it's interested in its own movement, the last thing it does is bring in the idea of its opposite.>

Pras: If it is so, can you tell us then why are we here?

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Sun, 18 Oct 2009

True. But does this conclusion end the misery ? The fact is not only the misery, but also that the unfragmented consciousness is generally aware of its bondage to something. Hence, it is trying to become free from the influence and domination of that fragmented part. What do you think?

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Sat, 17 Oct 2009

Paul Lanzon wrote: Yes, when mind is right the body is light. It's funny in a way to speak of these two as though they were unacquainted with one another. Negative thoughts can harm the body and make it feel heavy; affirmative thoughts can revive it.>

But, thoughts aren't always voluntary. All involuntary thoughts are motivated by insecurity, caused by fragmentation.

Just a thought: would K have commended this action? Or, like Buddha and Christ would he turn the other cheek?>

I think, K never sought to appreciate or depreciate. He seems to have said that a mere conflict-less action is natural or unmotivated.

This is a tremendous problem for some; not many have the capacity to turn the other cheek - that takes even greater courage than to face an armed enemy - that takes complete fearlessness, which may be just a by-product of Love, Metta in its highest manifestation. >

Perhaps the absence of motivated retaliation is the basic feature of response of intelligence. Some may have turned the other cheek, others may have tried to convince the attacker, as in the case of Buddha talking to Angulimala. However, irrespective of the levels of response, what may be noteworthy is that insecurity isn't motivating the response. And as long as intelligence or awareness is guiding its own response, its quantity and quality are optimum, so as to merely end the situation, and not to provoke or precipitate or prolong the situation further.

But then, I have to ask, if you would protect another from harm why would you not do the same for yourself since you are another and he is you. Oh dear, words are so easy, so delusive - so seemingly brave. It's so true, most of us lack courage.>

All great men tried to liberate mankind from misery, but not from death or pain. Misery happens to be unnatural and avoidable and obviously when one is free from sorrow, one can easily face not only pain or death but any situation, because a fearless mind is a single mind. Most of us lack courage, because of fragmentation.

Topic: Under total awareness, fear changed into bravery&courage Thu, 15 Oct 2009

If MINDS are functioning normally, there won't be any problem. It looks after the body also as well. isn't it?

Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Wed, 14 Oct 2009

From time immemorial, vested interests have been generally very clever to meet their objectives. Could it also be a trap, to awaken the sleeping critics to dump him finally ????

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Wed, 14 Oct 2009

So, isn't it important to find and focus on the cause, rather than the effect ?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Tue, 13 Oct 2009

If mankind is normal or natural psychologically, will these things happen ?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Sat, 10 Oct 2009

In a recent weekly gathering, the discussion touched the subject of 'vegetarianism'. Some one said that when animals eating other animals could be called as natural, even man eating other animals should also be seen as natural. Unbelievably, there were substantial number of people, who said 'yes' to it. Is it a situation where 'conditioning' dominates the intelligence ?

Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves? Mon, 21 Sep 2009

Robert Michael wrote: In any case, I'm thoroughly convinced that the circumstances of his early formative years .......... Including his chronic illnesses which afforded him an extraordinary close bond to his mother and considerable (quiet) time away from school. Of course his mother also considered him a special child from the time of his birth (due to Hindu tradition - him being the 8th child), which too had a large bearing in developing his finely-formed and extraordinarily sensitive brain and body. Bob M.>

The serious debate forum was closed abruptly and let us hope, this one doesn't close soon. K can be called a 'self-made' man, after all those TS experiments on him. Only difference being that, he knew his goal was nothing short of absolute freedom. I don't consider his brain and body were any better than most children born in a lower middle class family in India. There were innumerable families with dozen or more children. Only when the functioning of intelligence in him returned to normal, he became an extra ordinary human being, since others continued to be short of normal.

Topic: Will there be fruit from the seed of K's Teaching Tue, 25 Aug 2009

Robert Michael wrote: And he will have a teaching or an approach that's truly effective

Yes, Bob. If it isn't really effective, either it won't take off at all or it will be only flying high in the sky like a K or Buddha, i.e., beyond the reach of mankind.

Topic: Will there be fruit from the seed of K's Teaching Mon, 24 Aug 2009

Yes Madhav, I think, some day some one who has read K, would advance it further to make it effective.

Topic: Science&its limitations Sun, 23 Aug 2009

Go slowly. Let us clear up this mess. Bob, you aren't alone. Most K readers say so. I still wonder, whether I was taught wrong in school or others can't understand me. ;-) When you say, Science does harm, will it not mean that science is an entity which can harm ?

Whereas my contention is that science is only knowledge or a mere collection of facts of nature, and the user of this is the human consciousness. Because of its own internal damage or defect, the consciousness is mis-using its knowledge. Hence, science or the scientists (finders of knowledge) can't be blamed. Pl correct me if I am wrong.

If this gets cleared, then we can take up how 'thought hasn't caused the miseries of this world.

Topic: Science&its limitations Sat, 22 Aug 2009

Bob: And I repeat: science has evolved or grown to a point where it does far more harm than good to the evolutionary process. Essentially it now serves largely to keep the process stuck in the darkness of decay and degeneracy.

Bob, Sorry for asking this question again. You say science does more harm than good. Isn't it a collection of facts of nature and nothing else ? It is the man who is harming by making use of science.

Topic: Science&its limitations Thu, 20 Aug 2009

Robert Michael wrote: as it's 'grown' to be largely a destructive monster.

A section of mankind, because of its unique combination of fragmented consciousness combined with knowledge, has become monsters. Science, to repeat, still remains as a collection of facts or secrets of nature.

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 33 in total