Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Experimenter's Corner | moderated by John Raica

What are the 'facts'?


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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #31
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Sir life evolved over billion years, and brain evolved with it ,from single cell to man, ,it is intelligence that brought about this evolution, and love is that force, ,

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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #32
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Q brain a fragment, of this evolution, is a tool, not the whole story, , this brain is past as time ,is matter, matter by nature is limited, , what is limited can not know whole, ,

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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #33
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Yes door to love is this direct perception, ,now through this door man and his self as time can not go through, he must leave all the baggage of time at the door, he is not allowed to look behind this door,

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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #34
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Man is not prepared to do this , let go of self , he wants self to get enlightened, that will never happen, ,self can only end as time
,

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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #35
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Ending of time as self is that, silence ,it is called death of self ,unknown, to self

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Sat, 24 Dec 2016 #36
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Love must be that unknown, ?timeless, deathless, whole,

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Sun, 25 Dec 2016 #37
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Sir as soon man stops becoming, that is past , becoming future, direct perception is there, in that movement time does not interfere, as time as self is ended,

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Sun, 25 Dec 2016 #38
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Your post pages from book of life today's post is pointing this

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Sun, 25 Dec 2016 #39
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

Man does not stop becoming, that is time becoming, all becoming is is this struggle, effort , motive , as desire,

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #40
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

david sharma wrote:

Man is not prepared to do this , let go of self , he wants self to get enlightened, that will never happen, ,self can only end as time

Agreed, David, we instinctively and prioritarily think in terms of our self-centred continuity in time. Well, this is a planet of 'free will' and 'free choice' where we are implicitly supposed to learn...through our own mistakes. In this regard, 'time' and the 'law of large numbers' are not relevant. I personally believe that the 'perception of Truth' is probably the most intimate and demanding thing in all the universe

Hello David and John....

I was carefully reading this..thought, memory, analysing, the censor, the centre etc is the one caught in some sort of permanent sort of dissatisfaction , as I have seen that for me it is embedded in the program itself which seems to never stop searching mechanically and randomly anything labelled" good for me" s well as "bad for me"...

then what? there is a tension so created....this tension needs to be solved is not it ...

Agreed that time and law of large number are not that relevant...The most demanding thing ? well it seems to be the case John...going beyond thought cravings and self admiration we must somehow but why on earth would someone even get such idea ?? can it be an intellectual goal..we know the answer here..

what I see out of more is this, at some stage whatever thought is, caught in dissatisfaction, thought and all of it, must live this when it actually attempts to run away....there is thought willing this or that, and there is dissatisfaction at the same time...always, with a few rare skies with no clouds.

thought fights in any possible way from ignoring it(pretending to) up to facing it....to gain whatever it wishes

The result is a tension of the brain mind, a permanent discontentment directly linked to the program set up itself( It revealed some of itself during a few weeks). There is an analytical program, in order to function there is this desire add ons pushing us to do things to gain something labelled as good for me...desire and self congratulation are necessary to make thought work, without that a child would have no motives to stay alive...it is vital...

Is it the same as an adult ?

As a child life is usually still good enough with already many exceptions due to personal or global circumstances ...

As an adult I can feel a thirst growing up ...so does the frustration which goes with it..

Today's quote says this: ....The insufficiency of the self, its aching emptiness, causes the fear of death and of life. This fear is with us always: in our activities, our pleasures and pain. Being dead we seek life but life is not found through the continuity of the self. The self, the maker of time, must yield itself to the Timeless.

I agree with Richard that this never quenched thirst and its effects are the starting point....

to be or not continued...

Dan ...........

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #41
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
So, in short, to realise that this 'gnawing' frustration is one of the most active factors of our existential 'malaise' is one good philosophical point, but to bring it to an end is the 'real deal'. So to paraphrase a 'dead revolutionary'...Meditate, Meditate, Meditate

Hello John, yes, but there is a chronological series of events, if this "malaise" is not perceived factually,if its origin is not known, if thought keeps trying to play with it etc etc..., then there will be no next ever...

so far for me I see that I can't bring that to an end by will, desire etc it is more simple in fact, the "malaise" must win because it is more powerful than thought, than me etc , then as soon as it is free, immediately it takes the situation over in a way far too swift for thought to follow what takes place...because I is this malaise then the symptom is now a catalyst as well, that the way it is, an ideal one to push the dictatorship of thought aside for some time, unknown time...

this by pass all intellectual obvious or hidden game with all that, it is always surprising in the way "it" chooses to be

of course etc...

As you know, I do not use the word meditate...for me it does not say enough like fear for example, the word fear does not say that I am in fact trying to run away from something mentally...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 03 Jan 2017.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #42
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
As you know, I do not use the word meditate...

This reminded me of Krishnamurti saying that 'we live in a world of misunderstanding'(I think in one of the Saanen talks, 1968, more literally, but in different ways at different times, also). Words are important, but they have slightly different meanings for each one of us, not to mention Krishnamurti himself who kept telling us that meditation, creativeness, love, religion, ... are not what people generally understand about their meaning!!! Also we live in a world of misunderstanding because we were fatally born associated to a self and we are taught from the beginning that we have to make the best of this self, whereas Krishnamurti is often understood as saying that we, on the contrary, must get rid of the self. The fact is we don't know what we are, that is the 'malaise' of living the way I understand it, this is our basic anguish and perpetual frustration, because we grow up in one direction and never achieve any goal like the realization of the self... and this is the flaw of living! In the light of the self, and as the oldest film director of the world asserted not long before he died last year 106 years old, life is always bound to be a defeat! This is the 'malaise' of living, the way society demands from us to live.

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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 #43
Thumb_3018 Richard Lewis Bulgaria 18 posts in this forum Offline

Because we are as the dead we fear death; the living do not.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day | Jan 03, 2017

All the best to the diligent writers, readers and posters of the kinfonet-forum for 2017!

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #44
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
Words are important, but they have slightly different meanings for each one of us, not to mention Krishnamurti himself who kept telling us that meditation, creativeness, love, religion, ... are not what people generally understand about their meaning!!!

Hello Jess...

Yes indeed, it makes the problem of communication more complex.
Purposely the modern language had been somehow destroyed like art, like facts, etc by some for such purpose that most people would not be able to express such apparent complex matters...

I guess that we have to find different ways to say now...the traditional culture has lost a lot of its capacity to say ,well that is a fact so we must find new ways to communicate...

Jess S wrote:
Also we live in a world of misunderstanding because we were fatally born associated to a self and we are taught from the beginning that we have to make the best of this self, whereas Krishnamurti is often understood as saying that we, on the contrary, must get rid of the self. The fact is we don't know what we are, that is the 'malaise' of living the way I understand it, this is our basic anguish and perpetual frustration, because we grow up in one direction and never achieve any goal like the realization of the self... and this is the flaw of living!

Yes this is the all idea to separate even more people by bringing the deadly game of so called competition which in fact hides a process of elimination....the thieves leading the world since some 2500 years ish now are behind that...then we all fight and they steal our collective work..they are sure more cunning than the people..especially because they themselves cooperate..when fight on the social ladder..

What are we yes ?? Our main desired achievement is never there yes...

Jess S wrote:
In the light of the self, and as the oldest film director of the world asserted not long before he died last year 106 years old, life is always bound to be a defeat! This is the 'malaise' of living, the way society demands from us to live.

Yes and this is perceived, seen, and....escaped so we think but a fact cannot be escaped, from very young but thrown away into the dustbin with all the usual garbage ...

What we call society is a sort vertical ladder made up by anyone entering into the deadly game of so called competition ( me only, me first, of course as I only look at itself, its memories etc) ,as I said this is hiding elimination, then 99% of our energy is used in fight...achievement, efforts, etc None is left for life..

This process has nothing at all to see with our alleged ancestors, alas someone like darwin, a minister for propaganda of the empire of the time had done a lot of damages to the brain of many....I must say that this is brilliant enough, even k thinks that we are violent because of our ancestors so he said anyway..

this process called competition which is in fact elimination is only the use of some of the analytical capacities only useful and eventually good in imaginary fields where some practical ways can be found to survive with art and goodness ....

it is a conceptual tool meant to be used only in conceptual analytical fields to find out practical means...

in the absence of any other capacity, we use that conceptual capacity when we meet others...then as if others were concepts, we keep and use them for profit, or eliminate them when we do not have the use for them...

I love you because you bring me what I want..later on it is now go away as you do not bring me what I want anymore ..

When I am young, the day I start having what we call fear which is the beginning of analytical escapism , when death is now a problem...then we are ready to go into the brain mind subject through that door...

this is lost..apart from exceptions..

cheerio..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #45
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Richard Lewis wrote:
All the best to the diligent writers, readers and posters of the kinfonet-forum for 2017!

Hello Richard

Same to you of course...

;-)

Dan ...........

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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 #46
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
None is left for life.

Hello, Daniel. Thank you for putting it so clearly. I think this is in a way what Krishnamurti means when he says we're secondhand beings or lazy and he qualifies as 'petty' the way we live. Really we are not able to stand alone, we completely depend on other people's approval and all we can do is spend all the time trying to copy those who are looked at as the ones who have succeeded in life. And it can happen in all sorts of unexpected situations, really! The other day I was watching a television programme on the victims of that pill called talidomida and I still don't exactly know what to think of the statements made by all those people without arms or with misplaced hands or with no/ too many fingers, who considered themselves heroes because they could get married and have children with two legs and two arms and two hands!! Also just watch the paralympic games with people exerting out all their energy just to prove that although they are blind or don't have legs they can compete at some level! I'm sure the problem lies in some sort of psychological crisis that is affecting humanity, it is just competition that people are heading to and I would say that the 'mental bug' is some condition that we may call 'predator'where nothing is genuine.

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #47
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
I'm sure the problem lies in some sort of psychological crisis that is affecting humanity, it is just competition that people are heading to and I would say that the 'mental bug' is some condition that we may call 'predator' where nothing is genuine.

Hello Jess...

Yes, that is a necessary condition, a vital basement for the thieves leading us, to win...as the game is entirely rigged...and yet this is superficial...but unseen..because as you say

Jess S wrote:
Really we are not able to stand alone, we completely depend on other people's approval and all we can do is spend all the time trying to copy those who are looked at as the ones who have succeeded in life.

indeed, it is a sort of worldwide state of hypnotism...to be hypnotised one must be willing to be so...

As k mentioned in the years 40 I think, we are facing an immense crisis, of course it is a personal one as well as a global one..possibly never seen or lived by mankind before...as k said, but this I do not know.

And our response so far is clearly not adequate at all is my view...thought seems to have reached its ultimate capacity of escape....so the crisis....thought is in crisis, deep crisis...

Well not an easy task is not it ?

cheers..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 #48
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
(In a nutshell:) Any movement of thought in any direction is a dissipation of energy, and for the mind to be completely still there must be the energy of complete attention. Only then is there the coming into being of 'that' state which is (crystal pure ?) Creativity , that is the Timeless, the Real (thing ?) .

Hello John, thanks ..

Yes I know what k says about meditation, it simply means that at some stage when thought does not lead the brain this is meditation..so I had deeply meditate without searching for that at all, in that sense in my life so I know what he talks about...

I just meant that using this word dos not seem enough now like for many others, due to what you say at the beginning of your last post

John Raica wrote:
it may be just what Jess was mentioning- a vast cultural misunderstanding

And because I think that now we may have to be much more down to a sort of step by step careful describing of any real personal experiment with this..I see how this produces something with my close family...

in the old days of the real Kabbalah, not the cheap fake quite modern one of course, of this sort of hermetic science etc, symbols and secrets were the basement of the transmission of it somehow by all means...whether using allegories or whatever other means to do such transmission..I am mentioning the science of the Ancient where the goodness for all was the centre of such "science" , when today "science" has nothing to do with that at all...

My impression is that now we must go for something else, something direct as a way to say...as much as words can convey directly..

So when I see the word meditation as used by K, for myself since a long time I see that he is clearly mentioning what was there when this kundalini thingy thing took place, when the full bliss was there too etc so when this strange energy was-is there and so when thought was_is partially or totally tamed and remote by this energy so by the turning on of some other capacities....

this is why I am very reluctant to use it....because it can lead someone to believe that though is going to participate in such job, when on the contrary its absence of leadership is absolutely required..and I see that thought can really play the one who is not there.....

Having said all that, I do not mind when yourself use it of course..because we know where we stand.

cheerio..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 05 Jan 2017.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #49
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
That's right, Dan, and this is why I 'flash-posted' that small K quote on Meditation, since it was about the 'unknown' part of both our own 'mind & brain' and its counterpart from the Universal Mind. (Pretty much like someone was saying 'God is the glue that keeps the whole Universe together').
So in the context of Meditation, it is not our 'known' that is active but it is much more a matter of integration of our whole mind which then in its turn acts as an 'open window' to an inner universe of which we only intuit the presence.

Hello John, yes this is quite clear thanks.

John Raica wrote:
My 'contention' is pretty much with K's saying that 'meditation' must come by itself (as soon, of course as we've put order and sweeped clean our inner house). Somehow he's putting it (subliminally perhaps ?) in a causal sequence ( if you do the right thing in terms of awareness- observation- attention, , you might get to the 'ending of the time-thought' process) . Useless to say- you've been to BP too - that it doesn't seem to work this way - the bestest result seems to be the 'diligently activistic mind ' a rather common archetype in all the organised religions.

Yes, that is precisely the point, I am not able to go near it myself so far apart in time when my own troubles force me to do so, a kind of freezing my own thought's system in order to solve the pressure which is there, but solving it is not the point, living it properly is..

So far I did not involuntarily experiment more than that, which sometimes, entirely unexpectedly of course, has brought this strange contentment, this strange presence and more...giving the clear vision-fact that something more than thought is at work...and that this works on its own..

here is relief, contentment etc as you know it...

Yes I have been to BP ( which is for not British Petroleum but for Brockwood Park, K's school in England) as I was meant to work there as a cook, I was cheffing at the time...but I chose not to do it..It was closer to a Steiner sort of School-"normal" but elitist sort of school than whatever I had in mind...but the thing is that they must go along with the usual educational system too, and this one is clearly winning...according to me...K was aware of that.

John Raica wrote:
So back to the 'contention' this 'med'-thing really seems to be working vertically: up to a point it is your own responsibility to create the free inner space and silence ( and this is my part of work ) and in that integrated quality of mind something like your 'k thing' or the psy version of 'close encounters of a 3-rd type', may or may not occur. So, speaking only of myself, the first 'inwardly integrative' part is totally my responsibility - the second does not really depend of us...although if you don't ask, chances are that you won't receive either .

Well I "agree" with all that, and indeed..the k thing or close encounter may or may not occur and for myself I have not a single clue about all that came..yet each time properly living this "pressure" was around the corner each time..a sort of for once letting things be as they are...very tricky ..

Now all this is much clearer I think...

those last two days this pressure is at me and I am certainly not searching to solve it, that would be a huge mistake but one more time I have no clue where I am heading to , and even if I am heading to anything at all..all this can be an illusion...and well having some "experience" in the matter I have some idea where I must stand....which is that basically I cannot win that fight...

this is the tough part, as it is to be in the "I do not know" position....when thought tries to change that to fit its far too limited capacity

etc of course

cheerio...

Dan ...........

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #50
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought seems to have reached its ultimate capacity of escape....so the crisis....thought is in crisis, deep crisis...

Well not an easy task is not it ?

Not an easy task indeed, and Krishnamurti keeps pressing us to keep things simple! People just get entangled with intellectual explanations of how thought comes about, but I think that is absolutely useless if we are concerned about a sane, religious mind. So I don't know if it is correct to say that thought is in a crisis, as thought is just this precious function that human beings are endowed with and which helps us make sense of the world. The problem that modern society is facing now, I feel, is that there is this disgusting trend of alienation from the world as it is and we are producing things out of concepts on concepts... What we call art these days just shows this: music, architecture, painting, sculpture, even literature... barren and sad, I would say. I mean, thought does not change in its function, but the use we make of it is the crisis. I was just looking at some pages of a book by A D Dhopeshwarkar called 'J Krishnamurti and Awareness in Action', and I found the following bit that may be interesting to reflect on: 'Between one thought and the next, there is a gap which is occupied by the silent mind; and because it is silent it is felt as an empty gap. Krishnamurti tells us that these gaps even when they last for a split second have all the qualities of the silent mind. He also explains that these gaps can be widened to any extent. This teaching sometimes creates confusion because listeners try to hunt out these gaps but fail to find them, both because they last only a split second and also because consciously to search for what in its nature is non-conscious is a contradiction in terms.' I find this is very interesting, because in the end people are concentrating on the noise looking for silence!! It is the 'wrong turn', this lethal drive for appropriation that is there at the backstage all the time.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #51
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Thanks for your very sincere input, Dan. In this particular case it seems that the 'unknown' (or...'ignored' ?) part of the mind-brain -psycho-somatic complex would like to 'send a message' - (of what nature ?) Even in terms of your 'k-thing' experience, once 'touched by it' the potential link or (subliminal) 'aspiration' is still 'on the table' (so to say) , no matter how well organised our outer life is. So, again it all comes down for an 'inner listening' which basically is an act of meditation or of 'contemplation' pretty much like opening Pandora's Box - certainly the pressure is due to a lot of potentially intelligent energy being 'locked in', entangled in survivalistic loops, et j'en passe....

No worries but thanks, the input is easy to make, usually I was trying not to....but I think that now we may be closer to real happening as well. One more point I am not searching for any help nor explanation, any serious dialogue is good then.

yes it is about a message indeed, I have lived ( like many, most when not all of us of course) such moment many times and this is just right to say so. Something has to be seen! Sometimes it clearly speaks and shows, sometimes something not perceived takes place and all nastiness is gone ,leaving a "nice and gentle feeling"..it is already a sort of benediction of course...not the "huge" one but it has the same taste...and we know why: thought let it be somehow ....it has again shut up itself...even for one second will produce something

in that sense we can talk about meditation yes, now that we have clearly defined what we mean by that...thanks to Mr K ..

Yes about the k thing and more the potential aspiration is there, this is better to know it of course but this is known by itself, no need to check it out...at least that way one knows what is missing...this leaves a permanent pressure as a frustration, a discontentment, it goes from so light to heavy... and whatever is superficially or not done by thought's capacities will not get rid of that, because it is thought's state of mind!! This is where it is dangerous for some as the idea of suicide arises in such moments..not being personal here, this was seen and solved long ago.

Those moments in "meditation" do solve that in their own ways, this is how out of more ways that I am aware about some other capacities ...well this is pushing, gently or not depending on our resistance to it, towards a quite define different "lifestyle" at all levels, ....not more complex to deal with it at all that when one knows nothing about all that process going on within...

I indeed agree with your last words , it sounds "true" to me: So, again it all comes down for an 'inner listening' which basically is an act of meditation or of 'contemplation' pretty much like opening Pandora's Box - certainly the pressure is due to a lot of potentially intelligent energy being 'locked in', entangled in

Dan ...........

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 #52
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Now, totally unrelated to this (or is it ?) in today's meditation I had a pretty clear insight into the much used ( and abused ) K term 'silence'- which incidently had always put me on a loop. Could it experientially mean 'inner peace' ?. And I can see why this term is not 'psychologically' acceptable to the countless psys (pros & artisans altogether)- it has a strong 'post-mortem' cultural connotation (as in: 'he/she is finally resting in Peace ) - which we subliminally push away as far as possible from ourselves. But again, this 'inner peace' term has also been by the pros of the religion related trades; it simply sounds so 'right' on a funeral stone :-) So I wonder whether we should start a new thread entitled 'Tell it like it is' in which we could explore the experiential meaning of a few 'key terms' that have been intensively 'used' (literally too) by K and...especially by his 'followers'

I think that I get your point here, we'll see..

Sometimes it happens that thought is meeting this silence, meaning that for some reasons it is not busy at analysing something and feels a void...and it cannot analyse this void...
an inner space has been created somehow and thought is still trying to play with it when it can't..because it is not memorised, it has reached its limits of capacity and yet is trying to still analyse when it cannot..

well it is sure a sort of post mortem moment for the analyser yes..because in such moment it is just absolutely useless at the best and cannot work as usual, for the worse we get an idea..and yes exactly as you say : we push it away as far as possible..

this inner peace is there when thought does not leads as you know....it is more or less important, as it wishes...

will power is not allowed here.

We may try what you suggest..I have no idea where it may lead so this is fine for me....

Hello Jess, I have seen your post, I will go back to it tomorrow as I am away for some time now..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 06 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 08 Jan 2017 #53
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
Not an easy task indeed, and Krishnamurti keeps pressing us to keep things simple! People just get entangled with intellectual explanations of how thought comes about, but I think that is absolutely useless if we are concerned about a sane, religious mind. So I don't know if it is correct to say that thought is in a crisis, as thought is just this precious function that human beings are endowed with and which helps us make sense of the world.

Hello Jess, thought is vital indeed, but it can be said so of everything, like just remove all carbon atoms..matter is not anymore etc etc...if as I and many suspect or see, absolutely everything is, exists, because all is interrelated in a sort of incomprehensible for thought, unity , but one single particle is not, as it refuses it : mankind...

and this is thought's work..is what I clearly see..

Putting thought on the higher shelve is again thought's work, thoughts self capacity to celebrate itself as the highest,always counting ever calculating etc ..this is another lie..and I must say that since some of thought program was revealed by itself for some weeks , I see that before that I was not able to catch why we do that, why desire, why self pride etc...

now I see that without desire and self pride, thought does not work , everything in thoughts program is vital as a unity too, and thought itself broke that unity into pieces...k mentioned fragments taking it over ...

Now we see the work of thought on the planet...my view is: it is a personal and global disaster despite the machines...pure madness and voluntary blindness it is..

Jess S wrote:
The problem that modern society is facing now, I feel, is that there is this disgusting trend of alienation from the world as it is and we are producing things out of concepts on concepts... What we call art these days just shows this: music, architecture, painting, sculpture, even literature... barren and sad, I would say. I mean, thought does not change in its function, but the use we make of it is the crisis.

A group of insane are trying to rule the entire world and some of their means to do beside pure violence and false money is to destroy what was "good" in the cultural background..like in the fields you mention, beside creating a false history all over the place..

Yes thought is clearly the crisis, the use we make of it so.

for me any crisis says something by polarity..The Origin necessarily beyond time says even some bare logic, will not interfere directly for us is what I see..what is of time and what is not of time cannot directly meet is what I suggest..

So it is indirect by polarity..something must be done about crisis because it hurts, and it does not properly work...so such life is empty of any goodness, not to be mixed up with the short joy to get the toy I wanted..

what I say here that there is something helping us, talking to us, guiding us .

We have become too insane and falsely proud , to have any idea of all that...Thought has put itself so man on the top shelve...again one fragment is blindly at work..

Jess S wrote:
I was just looking at some pages of a book by A D Dhopeshwarkar called 'J Krishnamurti and Awareness in Action', and I found the following bit that may be interesting to reflect on: 'Between one thought and the next, there is a gap which is occupied by the silent mind; and because it is silent it is felt as an empty gap. Krishnamurti tells us that these gaps even when they last for a split second have all the qualities of the silent mind. He also explains that these gaps can be widened to any extent. This teaching sometimes creates confusion because listeners try to hunt out these gaps but fail to find them, both because they last only a split second and also because consciously to search for what in its nature is non-conscious is a contradiction in terms.' I find this is very interesting, because in the end people are concentrating on the noise looking for silence!! It is the 'wrong turn', this lethal drive for appropriation that is there at the backstage all the time.

Indeed, this is quite clear in my view...Experimentally I know nothing about a gap between two thoughts, I know about the moment when the pressure of whatever like pain ,discontentment etc takes it over for some unpredictable time, quite short in itself...what it does is in fact quite simple as such, it stops the split in two sides like/dislike operated by thought...so it stops thought's analysing...

etc...

Dan ...........

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #54
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Experimentally I know nothing about a gap between two thoughts, I know about the moment when the pressure of whatever like pain ,discontentment etc takes it over for some unpredictable time, quite short in itself...what it does is in fact quite simple as such, it stops the split in two sides like/dislike operated by thought...so it stops thought's analysing...

Yes, we know this space in between thoughts must exist otherwise we couldn't say we have had another thought, there would only be one thought... So, we either are just talking out of logic without any proof or it's just words that really cannot express accurately what this human living is all about. For example, at times Krishnamurti seems to discard the word'seeker', he even may suggest we are dumb when he cleverly says that you don't search what you don't know, when you seek you must look for something you can recognize, so how can you say that you are a truth seeker if truth is the unknown?!! This sounds perfectly rational... however... This 'discontentment' we all know about really is the trigger to make us 'seek'... Maybe some people are just looking for the opposite of what they are 'discontented' about, but many others along the history of man speak of 'seeing the light', 'the holy grail', etc. Can we then ask the 'impossible question' here? Could it be - also putting it logically - that if indeed our brains are very old (meaning, having it basically recorded with experience since the beginning of man) that human beings that are 'seekers' are looking for 'the light' that they somehow communed with when they were created?? Is this really an 'impossible question'? Words do fail us, as for example the author of 'The cloud of unknowing' acknowledges when he tries to explain: 'Do not suppose, because I call it a darkness or a cloud, that it is a cloud condensed out of the vapours that float in the air, or a darkness like that in your house at night when your candle is out. By intellectual ingenuity you can imagine such a darness or cloud brought before your eyes on the brightest day of summer, just as, conversely, in the darker night winter you can imagine a clear shining light. Give up such errors; that is not what I mean. For when I say darkness I mean an absence of knowing, in the sense that everything you do not know, or HAVE FORGOTTEN, is dark to you, because you cannot see it with your mind's eye. And for this reason it is not called a cloud in the air but a cloud of unknowing that is between you and your God.'

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #55
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:
This 'discontentment' we all know about really is the trigger to make us 'seek'

Hello Jess...yes indeed, but there is more to it like extreme curiosity as well, for me..as a child I quite well remember that.

Jess S wrote:
Maybe some people are just looking for the opposite of what they are 'discontented' about, but many others along the history of man speak of 'seeing the light', 'the holy grail

As far as I see anything in this matter , this is what thought does..searching for the opposite because it field being practicality when this does not work then let us try the opposite in case it would function or something else etc

thought does its job according to its set up....beyond its field of competence if it is not about practicality ...then mass killing, stealing ,destruction etc is only perceived as solving a specific problem..human beings are then perceived as concepts, ideas in the way etc and why not get rid of concepts which are in the way between me and my desires..

I personally have lived like some , some events where this "holy grail" ( I like that expression) was there...of course uninvited, unexpected, impossible to predict, the content of which is far beyond the most vivid imagination etc actually some of those so called NDE, near death experiences are quite close, one I met was the same as one I lived, to my own "events" fully awake , in day time in a crowded town etc and totally remote from physical death ...just for information.

Jess S wrote:
Can we then ask the 'impossible question' here? Could it be - also putting it logically - that if indeed our brains are very old (meaning, having it basically recorded with experience since the beginning of man) that human beings that are 'seekers' are looking for 'the light' that they somehow communed with when they were created?? Is this really an 'impossible question'?

Well what a formidable question here ! and for the fun like would do those politician liars: well I am very glad that you asked this question , in fact thinking : oh shit !!

So we can go on with logic, I use that a lot. Our brain are old is the basement, OK. they have necessarily an origin..The beginning of man is unknown to us to be honest , I do not buy any crap we are told about that...too childish and immature..you bring the possibility here that somehow all is recorded, if untrue well OK it is untrue, so we end here..if true we can go on with some logic ...

If the past is contained in the brain , why not go to the very origin of its creation so of the creation itself..which could well be contained in it as it would be in any created "thing" then ??

creation could be present somehow unknown to us in this brain so..when those liars in power tell us that only some insane and violent only animal part of the alleged evolution would affect us ..and nothing else ..this goes along with the negation by our science of any Origin..

If so that creation is somehow there, then there may be some knowledge of it hidden somehow somewhere in us..yes I see that as very much possible , especially but not only when recalling those impossible moments..

A vital search out of some hidden in us knowledge of something absolute , when for us thought, the thinking program tries to copy paste that search for its profit,based on what it can achieve by set up which has nothing in common with the absolute ...as it is only relative in time when the absolute is out of time ..thought is sure to fail in this quest...

logic asks , chance or not ? If it is chance then there is no intention behind it is just bad luck with a 100% pattern, If not chance then there is an intention behind,...

that thought will fail...creating what we call suffering...then there is an intention behind too...it is there to do something....

etc

Jess S wrote:
when I say darkness I mean an absence of knowing, in the sense that everything you do not know, or HAVE FORGOTTEN, is dark to you, because you cannot see it with your mind's eye. And for this reason it is not called a cloud in the air but a cloud of unknowing that is between you and your God.'

well, what else to say !! it is about ignorance so..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #56
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought does its job according to its set up....beyond its field of competence if it is not about practicality ...then mass killing, stealing ,destruction etc is only perceived as solving a specific problem..human beings are then perceived as concepts, ideas in the way etc and why not get rid of concepts which are in the way between me and my desires..

That's it! I would say even that's the way modern society is living today.
As to thought being the cause of suffering, originally, I think it is a matter for inquiry. Of course buddhists would immediately answer that craving and attachment are the cause of suffering, but... we, human beings, don't know where we come from and what is already inscribed on the 'slate' when each one of us is born.

This post was last updated by Jess S Wed, 11 Jan 2017.

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #57
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 318 posts in this forum Offline

Jess S wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

thought does its job according to its set up....beyond its field of competence if it is not about practicality ...then mass killing, stealing ,destruction etc is only perceived as solving a specific problem..human beings are then perceived as concepts, ideas in the way etc and why not get rid of concepts which are in the way between me and my desires..

That's it! I would say even that's the way modern society is living today.

Yes indeed, but since quite a long time with such utter madness, reloaded for me around the so called siecle des lumières, the false French révolution etc madness for me due too to the attempt to run away from the natural pressure on the brain due to "suffering" ( whatever is its root), such attempt being impossible as it means to run away from what one is...this is why according to me k speaks of our "lifestyle" as a suicidal one ...

Jess S wrote:
As to thought being the cause of suffering, originally, I think it is a matter for inquiry. Of course buddhists would immediately answer that craving and attachment are the cause of suffering, but... we, human beings, don't know where we come from and what is already inscribed in the 'slate' when each one of us is born.

Well I say that myself based on experiment as well as some revelation of the program of thought over a few weeks..I did not try and search to understand anything in this matter, it was there at some stage..

It probably could go more to the core of it I'd say..but I am not trying to go deeper, as this is thought at work and I reject it in such fields..

I suffered too much because of that , and I know it by having seen its origin in that case, not the only one so, in some sort of instant revelation ...out of my control.

agreed that we do not know where we come from, etc and what is already inscribed in the 'slate' when each one of us is born.

this come in time like for the flower to bloom and blossom ...the time for the body-brain to reach it full physical state first, so its full potential of capacities then the time to question when something very wrong is felt in one's life, then maybe the time of "revelations" for oneself ..etc

in a modern society there is only one time, the one to fight by all means....so spent in conflict with others..organised ,developed and promoted by the crook leading the flock to steal it as much as possible..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 #58
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 9 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
in a modern society there is only one time, the one to fight by all means....so spent in conflict with others..organised ,developed and promoted by the crook leading the flock to steal it as much as possible..

Hello, Daniel! Thank you for sharing some of your reflections on all this affair of living in this modern society. What you are describing here is also what I see, so really I don't approve of modern mass education that is producing such cynical superfluous human beings basically concerned about taking advantage of whatever and whoever they find around them, as much as possible and as quickly as possible, too. In 1928, when Krishnamurti wrote 'Life in Freedom' there is however hope for every single human being, as he says that in spite of going through 'life after life' and through 'shrine after shrine', 'he [man] goes forward towards that goal which awaits him as it awaits all men'. However, in later years, Krishnamurti speaks of the urgency of change, he said that 'the house is burning', so maybe what he wrote in 1928 was written because there was not yet the perception that 'time' does not have just one measure of the calendar and the clock, but it has sped up with the new technologies and the ticking of emotions being left in the open upsets any notion of time.

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 #59
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Online

Better late than never, this could represent a major psychological fact to be taken into account: conflict. Now, certainly K has used this term so extensively (and also so...generically !) that the casual viewer or reader feels free to skip it, forgetting all too easily its deeper experiential significance.

In the earlier times (30's & 40's ) K used another 'pet name' to describe it: contradiction - we say one thing and later on we're saying something else, perhaps not even realising the 'contradiction' involved. Later on K adopted the more general term 'conflict' which covers both the outer and the inner field of real life.
Now, this term is also currently used by the medias, mostly to describe the ideological and armed conflicts, not to mention its 'ethically correct' version : "conflict of interest", to such an extent that its inward, experiential significance is happily glossed over by practically everybody: those directly involved in personal conflicts don't like to be reminded of them, while those who do not feel personally involved may look at it as something so common and obvious in the modern world that it doesn't require any inner considerations. K's rather stern pronouncements such 'you are (responsible for ) the (state of the ?) world' has not really made any difference (besides culpabilising some of his followers and dissuading some newcomers?) because it is sounding too 'general' to be practical and without any real directly experiential basis.

So, back to the actuality of our inner conflicts, we would all love to solve or end them...providing we would 'see' them. And the main experiential difficulty is that the 'conflictual attitude' is 'in the eyes of the beholder'- we look at some distubing event happening outside or inside of us and the instinctual attitude of the 'observer' is to 'avoid' getting into a personally damaging conflicts, unless he does not see the conflict potentially rewarding.

Now, it always seemed to me strange that K speaks of 'conflict' and not of 'conflicts' - and the only serious reason I could see was that he was refering to a 'central' conflict- that between the 'observer' and 'whatever it is observing'. As long as the 'observed' is not really disturbing the personal safety of the 'observer', the latter can afford to be 'objective', trying to 'understand' rather than trying to 'change' the things observed. But when the challenge is becoming too 'personal', the previously dispassionate 'observer' becomes the serious 'thinker' trying to 'solve the case'. (It may be interesting to notice that the 'observer' the 'thinker', the 'controller' or again ' experiencer' are interchangeable identitary envelopes depending on the gravity of the challenge encountered : we can feel as truly 'benevolent observers' when visiting a new country, city, community, as long as we can keep a safe distance from the local 'realities'- beggars, armed patrols, peddlers, etc (not to mention the K forums or discussion groups...) . But when we want to interact within that 'reality' our space of inner safety begins to shrink- the observer's personal firewall is on...and from there we know how the story goes- the identification with one's self-protective images, then the psychological impacts, hurts and frustrations and the more we think of how to 'solve' them... the endless tail of colateral conflicts

Now, in a psychological version of 'reverse engineering' this whole time-binding process can be quickly traced back to the point of our mind becoming aware of this 'observer-observer' perceptive gap and to dealing 'integratively' with (in a non-conflictual way)

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