Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Tue, 19 Apr 2016 #241
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The subconscious is memory’s storehouse. I think that a better term for subconscious would be "super-conscious"; for 'sub' suggests that which is under, a subservient mind, which it is not. It is the more powerful of the two. I would rather speak of it as the "over mind", and not the "under mind."

Well John, this fits what I somehow know to some extend only , matter of experience here.

At the level of the earth it is the ones "which" are behind the curtain, the real people leading the flock to serve them. The self elected people.

the correspondence between one brain-mind and the all of humanity so often struck me..

In time of the revealing of some parts of this "super-conscious", for me so far by letting sorrow be ,rightly as it has to be, this is where some unpredictable learning can already start is what I know..the superficial mind cannot do much at all..

here we have a global " organic machine" which contains parts...the part which decides to take control does not know about this global nature, sure to be The One....

the machine has a bug since ages..for me not for all from our start as what we are....and it is presently dangerously increasing...

For myself I very well sense that this super conscious is the one leading as this signal I get is clearly from it, I must find ways for it to reveal more and more of itself...I well may be stuck here for good up to my last day or not, I do not know....

again sorrow-pain-discontentment is the catalyst for that....because this basically is the state of this super-conscious ...that is my main "work" for now..

thanks for having found that, I missed that one from K in my rather intense and global research about all what he mentioned about this unconscious, superconscious..

this emphasis on "I" and for myself etc etc is on purpose to signify that what is said is relative to my own experience....if it has a wider value which is possible or not, then anyone can get it and more for himself so...

The free sharing of that as well as what are all the known means to grow a proper veg garden and so on ad libitum must be...

the natural and spontaneous sharing is part of the missing togetherness (included with oneself of course) we should be surrounded by..

it is the only way...obviously not ours.

Despite that, the "way remains" the same ....the outer is insane because we globally are of course..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 19 Apr 2016.

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Tue, 19 Apr 2016 #242
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And he answered- again, holistically' that there is "this vast pool of knowledge of mankind" and (conveniently enough ...) it can be 'tapped into' and on the spot you can exchange with the finest brains of the world

this pool seems to be a fact...one half dead serious and half just serious comment, because competition is all over the place, it is a blind belief , hiding in fact a process of elimination ( I clearly see that since some of the analytical has revealed itself , we would be supposed to have the best everywhere and all the time...this assertion is wrong, this belief is simply wrong, this is not the way it works...in the globality of the universe , for me...

I started understanding that when working as a simple worker in a factory, that was fine between us because there was a sort of togetherness, helping, between most people...but the point is that I noticed that when a big huge machine was having troubles and was not functioning, the big head( the man with an office and a chair was usually not able to fix it in the detail at all), it was so the job of far less specialised workers, and I noticed that most had very different ways to fix the machine....in all cases all problems were solved.....

after a while you would not see any big head around....the less they were coming to the production quarters the better people would be working...because there is a natural something x between us, and when no big head is around, after a while things work fine...

no hierarchy there is in the Universe...only man is caught in this deadly process..

my point being...why care about the so called finest brain,what is meant here is good at maths and those sort of things and good memory to end up a lawyer to cheat better others as they are the winners of their self organised competition by themselves ,so it is elimination , as when I deeply and widely in all directions in what state they and we by accepting their games hoping to win, have put the earth , it is a disaster !! yet many won't see that.of course when you see nothing at all :-(

John Raica wrote:
So, "teaching & preaching" - wise, K was abilitated to speak almost exclusively about the human mind and brain as it is presently (namely, self-centred, fragmented, full of programming 'bugs', etc). Possibly because his immediate goal was to form a solid 'elite' of self-knowledgeable people- like a nuclear 'critical mass' who in turn will...change the ( self-destructive) course of our global consciousness. Well, it proved to be far easier said than done. My personal feeling is that if we restrict it all to 'self-knowing' and deleting the 'egotic-residues' we might be missing the universal dimension of our own existence..

now back to the core of your point and mine by the way..Possibly this critical mass affair was one of his immediate goal yes ?? , I have a deep feeling for this critical mass point. He said somewhere that the talks were not his priority or main concern ( would you remember where it was? )

Self knowing for me is a side effect in what I know, so is the deleting of egotistic residues or rather for me of unsolved hidden problems .....

side effect of what? side effect means that it is there without searching for..

sorrow-dukkah

the great danger of sorrow-dukkha is to drown into it when attempting to escape from it and be destroyed and-or destroying others under the unbearable pain it gives into ones life ,

another great danger is to try to use it for something, it will give the same result...

only the third , if never lived), theoretical path not mentioned here seems to be right to me....that would give water to the Buddha's "middle path"...which is fact would be the third path like the third eye in my view..

As to the universal dimension of our existence it starts with small things right where we are, like natural friendly cooperation having the sense of others as well as of oneself within the group, sharing, helping, knowing when to say no, to refuse etc etc etc all those being too side effects of having solved even a little of one's sorrow...beyond that well......!!!! mais cela ne se trouve pas sous les sabots d'un cheval...

such a person already will refuse to go to war, some did that in the first world war in the French army, they were just executed......such a person refuses to exploit whatever the consequences are etc....the critical mass is far away but , you never know....a global insight could help one of those days ??

Apres tout sur ce chemin seul l'imprevu arrive ....

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 19 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #243
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
In fact I had a quite shattering personal experience: the very night K died (Feb 16, 1986) I had this strange 'dream' with a huge ball of light which explodes after coming close to earth, and it was so 'real' that I got the scare of my life- literally- But to my surprise the rays resulting from the explosion were going through everything- including myself- and it was not 'good' nor 'bad'- just a very penetrating light- like the 'neutrinos'- they can practically go through the globe without any difficulty

Hello John...

such moment is very interesting. First of all anything frightening in dreams then called nightmares had been most revealing when they are not escaped, as to this specific one, well no doubt for me that it contains "something". The fact that it as not good not bad for me indicates a clear message that you got..

Has it come back under some other form but kind of similar after that?

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

the critical mass is far away but , you never know....a global insight could help one of those days ??

In one's own life, most certainly. As for the whole planet it's hard to tell since even if there are many people of good will, the collective consciousness has a lot of 'temptations' even for them. I guess it was Oscar Wilde who said " I can resist anything...except temptation"

Temptation yes...it brings us back to desire as a part of the program of thought, as a necessity for the analytical process to work like self pride is, this is only good when analysing, it has the purpose to theoretically make us do-achieve good practical things; at their root they are parts of the global program as incentives to make the analytical program work is what I clearly see, no desire and no self contentment= no analysing....but the system goes wrong etc etc..back to square one...

the analyser can only go that way...without missing processes good luck to everyone in this global fight..the 67 families possessing 50% of earth wealth must be thrilled with us..see John perkins work or here and here etc bien sur...

The deadly thing is that it is the mass who created such a monstrous society...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #244
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

As it come back under some other form but kind of similar after that?

Not on the similar level of intensity . But I'd say that there's some (anonymous) 'follow up' every now and then

Would you mind to expand on the content of that, if in the mood and if you think it is worthy, like what is your "impression" now ..you have triggered my curiosity here with this.. thanks..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #245
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 537 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
expand on the content of that, if in the mood and if you think it is worthy, like what is your "impression" now ..you have triggered my curiosity here with this.. thanks..

Nothing big, Dan, but every once in a while some 'no name' psy-entities seem to check up with you- but this being said such experiences are so close to being purely 'subjective'... But for your curiosity's benefit I'll try to copy-paste a few of K's more 'documented' psy-events. Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

It was a short operation and not worth talking about, though there was considerable pain. While the pain continued I saw or discovered that the body was almost floating in the air. It may have been an illusion, some kind of hallucination, but a few minutes later there was the personification—not a person—but the personification of death. Watching this peculiar phenomenon between the body and death, there seemed to be a sort of dialogue between them. Death seemed to be talking to the body with great insistence and the body reluctantly was not yielding to what death wanted. Though there were people in the room this phenomenon went on, death inviting, the body refusing.

It was not a fear of death making the body deny the demands of death but the body realised that it was not responsible for itself, there was another entity that was dominating, much stronger, more vital than death itself. Death was more and more demanding, insisting and so the other interfered. Then there was a conversation or a dialogue between not only the body, but this other and death. So there were three entities in conversation. He had warned, before he went to the hospital, that there might be a disassociation with the body and so death might intervene. Though the person [Mary] was sitting there and a nurse came and went, it was not a self-deception or kind of hallucination. Lying in the bed he saw the clouds full of rain and the window lighted up, the town below stretching for miles. There was spattering of rain on the window pane and he saw clearly the saline solution dripping, drop by drop, into the organism. One felt very strongly and clearly that if the other had not interfered death would have won.

This dialogue began in words with thought operating very clearly. There was thunder and lightning and the conversation went on. Since there was no fear at all, neither on the part of the body or the other—absolutely no fear—one could converse freely and profoundly. It is always difficult to put a conversation of that kind into words. Strangely, as there was no fear, death was not enchaining the mind to the things of the past. What came out of the conversation was very clear. The body was in considerable pain and not apprehensive or anxious and the other was discernibly beyond both. It was as though the other was acting as an umpire in a dangerous game of which the body was not fully aware. Death seemed to be always present but death cannot be invited. That would be suicide which would be utterly foolish.

During this conversation there was no sense of time. Probably the whole dialogue lasted about an hour and time by the watch did not exist. Words ceased to exist but there was an immediate insight into what each one was saying. Of course if one is attached to anything— ideas, beliefs, property or person, death would not come to have a conversation with you. Death in the sense of ending is absolute freedom. The quality of conversation was urbane. There was nothing whatsoever of sentiment, emotional extravagance, no distortion of the absolute fact of time coming to an end and the vastness without any border when death is part of your daily life. There was a feeling that the body would go on for many years but death and the other would always be together until the organism could no longer be active. There was a great sense of humour amongst the three of them and one could almost hear the laughter. And the beauty of it was with the clouds and the rain. The sound of this conversation was expanding endlessly and the sound was the same at the beginning and was without end. It was a song without a beginning or an end. Death and life are very close together, like love and death. As love is not a remembrance, so death had no past. Fear never entered this conversation for fear is darkness and death is light. This dialogue was not illusory or fanciful. It was like a whisper in the wind but the whisper was very clear and if you listened you could hear it; you could then be part of it. Then we would share it together. But you won’t listen to it as you are too identified with your own body, your own thoughts and your own direction. One must abandon all this to enter into the light and love of death.

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #246
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K.: Fear never entered this conversation for fear is darkness and death is light. This dialogue was not illusory or fanciful. It was like a whisper in the wind but the whisper was very clear and if you listened you could hear it; you could then be part of it. Then we would share it together. But you won’t listen to it as you are too identified with your own body, your own thoughts and your own direction. One must abandon all this to enter into the light and love of death.

I remember reading what you posted above with a great interest a long while ago. And it's good to see it again because while one can't make a judgement on whether this actually was or was not anything more than a hallucination, it still reminds that there are probably factors involved with our life and our death here, that are beyond our powers of reason.

You could say that we've been given the power of the 'gods' here and until we understand what we have been given,it will keep tearing us apart...he lays it out very clearly; as long as we continue to be 'identified" with the body, with thought, with a "direction", the truth will be hidden from us...

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #247
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
. Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

Hello John, please yes..I read it long ago, and in the biography there really are many interesting informations...details etc

as to the related event and the conversation well there is nothing to add to that intense and really weird moment, it leaves some sort of ..taste is not it ? that is the type of moments lived with the kthing or same type of moments as you know so the quote, not that one which is very social indeed ,but on the same wavelength and it is really a sort of matter of abandonment whatever happens..to me....without of course like in k's "story", reaching the idea of suicide,as this is not at all the point..

this brings me to my last night dream which avoided to reach the nightmare stage as there was no escape but a decision made, where at the end of it , at the edge of a cliff I voluntary jumped whatever would happen, because I was fed up with fear and the pain of it....then I stop 5 cm from the big stones underneath.....then I slept deeply...and woke up with that dream in mind..it is important....sometimes in dreams you can act instead of always escaping..sometimes you just feel so relax and sometimes there is a learning....

I do not understand well what happens in such moment...well I am not trying to..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #248
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
As for the falling and stopping dream it looks like the deeper layers of your consciousness are experimenting with letting go the 'known' . It's by no means not an 'easy ' job -and this is one of my issues with K's talks: it all looks 'so easy'.

Yes something on that wavelength...

"we" know what is behind that and yet, yes not an easy job..

when reading k it is all so easy indeed

John Raica wrote:
De toute évidence il n'a pas fait le même trajet spirituel que nous...

tout à fait certes. une partie de ce qui est ressenti comme poids trop lourd-douleur vient de là...de ne pas lâcher le connu quand il le faut..

Bon je me dis que il y avait un travail plus détaillé à faire par là et c'est pour cela que j'y suis coincé, il y a un truc vital a saisir, un moment...çà pourrait venir ou pas !!
....K a pris l'autoroute et tant mieux pour lui....il a du se jeter de la falaise très souvent voir plus !!!

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #249
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

paul daniel wrote:
Bon je me dis que il y avait un travail plus détaillé à faire par là et c'est pour cela que j'y suis coincé, il y a un truc vital a saisir, un moment...çà pourrait venir ou pas !!
....K a pris l'autoroute et tant mieux pour lui....il a du se jeter de la falaise très souvent voir plus !!!

salut Daniel, salut John comment allez vous..?

ici je profite pour dire quelque chose..

en fait K. était préparé en quelque sorte à prendre l'autoroute avant de se laisser vivre à la douleur... et lorsque celle ci est venue, il était déjà dans une Ferrari prête à partir...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #250
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline


John Raica wrote:
Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

first page I see this which may be useful in some cases.

* Krishnamurti requested several times that there should be no authoritative interpretation of his teaching, although he encouraged those interested in it to discuss it among themselves.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #251
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
salut Daniel, salut John comment allez vous..?

ici je profite pour dire quelque chose..

en fait K. était préparé en quelque sorte à prendre l'autoroute avant de se laisser vivre à la douleur... et lorsque celle ci est venue, il était déjà dans une Ferrari prête à partir...

Salut ma poule, ce matin après ce rêve de me jeter du haut de la falaise sans idée de suicide dans le rêve, cela laisse un gout de relaxation profonde voir bien plus comme un genre de ...."questionnement très intéressant"

oui possible voir probable bien sur qu'il avait la ferrari, manquait juste la clé ? "préparé" dis tu, mais qu'entends tu plus précisément par cela ?

je me rappelle avoir lu un écrit à propos de lui même où il disait que quoique il fasse, il y avait un mécontentement permanent présent...rien n'avait de vrai "gout" dirais je..

puis survint la mort de son frère....etc

Ce problème là , ce problème spécifique à la douleur , et ce quel qu’en soit son origine, il pouvait alors déjà avoir eu des intuitions voir plus profond pour savoir y naviguer non ?? est ce cela que tu veux dire ?

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #252
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

par préparé (car on est rarement préparé à souffrir lol) j'entend le fait que ses pratiques de méditation voire de yoga, l'hygiène de vie qu'il avait ont contribué à préparer un terrain, et ainsi lorsque l'intense douleur de son frère est survenue, à balayer les voiles les plus lourds...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #253
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

John Raica wrote:
Si tu veux je peux t'envoyer ses bios

si tu veux oui, merci

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 22 Apr 2016 #254
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

John Raica wrote:

As for the falling and stopping dream it looks like the deeper layers of your consciousness are experimenting with letting go the 'known' . It's by no means not an 'easy ' job -and this is one of my issues with K's talks: it all looks 'so easy'.
Dan: Yes something on that wavelength... "we" know what is behind that and yet, yes not an easy job..

So I have to go back to that and expand on that dream which still has some active effects by itself, somehow out of my own capacity to analytically understand ..

the dream being:

paul daniel wrote:
last night dream which avoided to reach the nightmare stage as there was no escape but a decision made, where at the end of it , at the edge of a cliff I voluntary jumped whatever would happen, because I was fed up with fear and the pain of it....then I stop 5 cm from the big stones underneath...

now some of the outcome of that is that I see that what is , is the innate( it is there out of the blue for some reasons) and acquired knowledge of almost everything going on at all practical levels globally on this planet..economy, business , money, war, religion, politics, sciences , conflicts, killing ,who does what + the personal level as well, fear, anxiety, pain, sorrow, death, my death the death of the children , sickness, this utter depressing state of practically anyone, the hopeless state of man, tortures, stealing, cheating, the lies etc ad libitum...up to k's words and more...

all this is a terrible impossible task for the analyser who is now because of that or going the usual mad way of escaping so total ignorance and so of sorrow or not !!!!!

this may freeze the analyser sufficiently even for a few seconds, this gives the opportunity to the other capacities to awake themselves if you do not escape as we all do permanently all the time on all subjects..if there is somewhere left in our mind a flash of sanity and clarity, I may see that "I" can't do anything about all that at all, yet I see it all, most of it of course, in the detail that is not possible, yet by knowing oneself sufficiently so not by thinking even some details would not be surprising at all..as the world of man as it is is so very limited to a few basic reactions only ....

So Can I live in this totally nuts world? well have I the choice ? NO.....

If there is resistance to it, or the idea to change it..then deep troubles are starting now leading to more sorrow ,pain and insanity..

our insane leaders we stupidly vote for are all , like so many of us on that wavelength .

they have chosen the path to fashion the world according to their own image they have of it...multiplied by 7 billions, this can lead to one thing which is violence = conflict = business = war = crimes = inanity-insanity...etc...

entering this total nonsensical path..well this is clearly not a life at all...it is a self punishment ..

what is left ? who said this ? changing yourself, changing the world..

by no means a global solution will work, it seems now that only the one by one radical change may bring the global one...

one more times the roles are reversed,( a voluntary propaganda by "some" !!) where we must be personal first, with this sort of ignorant me in pain, we have false "religion" and a collective educational prison, and where we must be collective we tend to believe( meaning not knowing ) that it is the personal which creates the "success" and feed the world, this is pure fiction of course...because in the facts all what is produced cannot exist without a collective of people, remove a collective from all what is made, there is nothing left at all...which is still the case but this is not perceived at all....the heavy propaganda of the thieves of this collective work works well....on a huge majority of people,

I as a blind person am this insane world, I am all the wars etc ..we are the world that is another fact ....

Seeing this beyond thought is a liberating factor, it works on its own...if..??

Dan ...........

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Fri, 22 Apr 2016 #255
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Well, Dan, there's also the other side of it; if one is feeling personally responsible one can try to do otherwise. So this is creating a 'psy-counter current' like the proverbial river "Ganges" starting with a few drops of water

Yes John, I agree .But if one does not feel so see and understand where it comes from that this world is so wrong so are we, there will be too few drops....but that is the way it is, one can only profoundly do for one I guess; which is fine too..

otherwise it is immediately recreating the same world and state of mind

John Raica wrote:
But for the moment all these 'counter-currents' are pretty much flowing as isolated streams of consciousness. Now, there's a lot of spiritual 'blindness' involved in all this since by the time they could join together...many are 'evaporating' ( and going back to square one !)

Yes indeed...The present situation lasting for many centuries if not millennium in my view compared to the life of one individual is the moment of depression anxiety, fear, sorrow and pain etc

question is , is he again going to try to run away from himself as an illusion to be two items or not..will this illusion be seen? etc

well all this for me narrows down by a lot the fields of investigation, passive investigation ??

Dan ...........

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Fri, 22 Apr 2016 #256
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan

No answers here. At this point I'm just taking K. at his word, that the 'problem' is one of "identification". Identification with the physical body, with one's thoughts, and as he put it, identification with one's "direction". And without those "identifications" ending, there will be no entering that "light of love and death." Fair enough. This looks very much like a 'human problem' and you could say it is an 'honor' to be involved 'first-hand' in this 'brain' experiment that we are part of...some 'spiritual' guy once said to me when I was complaining about something that "you must have some karma to be here" which I took to mean that being a human was something 'special' especially among our feathered and furry friends here. Be that as it may, the 'work' for us seems to be for those of us who have gotten 'bitten' by the 'spiritual bug' is to see it through best that we can.
And in this case, with K. that means ending 'identification', identification that we didn't even know we were 'identified' with! You mean not be 'identified with 'my' body?, you mean not be 'identified with 'my' precious thoughts? Or my 'goals'?
So what's left!!?...well, as he said: "the light of love and death".

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 22 Apr 2016.

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Sat, 23 Apr 2016 #257
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
with K. that means ending 'identification', identification that we didn't even know we were 'identified' with! You mean not be 'identified with 'my' body?, you mean not be 'identified with 'my' precious thoughts? Or my 'goals'?
So what's left!!?...well, as he said: "the light of love and death".

Hi Dan...

I had an exchange with John about identification, as it does not speak to me...he told me a story I don't remember now and at the time I thought I got something about identification out of it, but not....It does not speak .

It is an approach which leaves me blank...yet I intellectually get it, but it does not seems to trigger anything for me.

I would nearly tend to see this: a bunch of thought so desires, fears, sorrows, hopes, sadness, joy = the analytical program is perceiving itself as a "I" , a body , a person, with a past, talent, future etc and well somehow it is true that it is so, there is such "person"...I am not you nor the sun...

now all this is full of discontentment for the least up to heavy pain ....

My own way which came sort of without searching at all is : am I going to try to understand about identification when k says it is a problem? I have nothing against that...do I start from what is pushing me to search which is this nasty pain from light to too heavy...

none of my intellectual investigations having brought anything at all in 60 years, yet some say that I am very good at analysing, this IQ thingy thing , I bring that here to say that the intellectual search was deeply intense and thorough ,despite that , all was getting worse...not the tool obviously...

then because of that, one day all this was too much and I saw "my" defeat...and had no choice but to live it as such....whatever would be the consequences....this immediately triggered a sort of turning on of some other capacities....bringing some of what was hidden to the surface, this creates immediate relief, visions, brings a lot of energy, not the one of the business man or the soldier of course etc etc....later on it has brought some revealing of the thought program and more and to be honest "it" brings into the light what it wishes, "I" have no control on that at all, choice is gone when this is on,without any search for that....but this movement as I see it must go on....as soon as one stops, it means to go back to the old analytical pattern which itself becomes less heavy ...

K would call that partial solving, not good enough in his view , I agree with that as a matter of fact ...but what I sense here is: that is fine, I take what comes up in this field...as if I create another goal such as absolute solving, then I am back to be using the analyser ,back to heavy troubles...

it is a very uncertain situation to be aware of I think and see so far..

My point being , my view and experiences so far only, that to by pass thought is a very difficult task because It cannot be a task in my view, because of course thought will again be hidden behind so it is impossible that way...like solving sorrow can be perceived as a need if not a necessity , but cannot be a goal in itself ,as again thought will be the one leading....adding more and more to the confusion..

what is left like at the end of the day like when you mention this: You mean not be 'identified with 'my' body?, you mean not be 'identified with 'my' precious thoughts? Or my 'goals'? ( I can myself add , not with my sorrow)
So what's left!!

here now identification speaks a bit to me, identification seems to say that there would be two items with a separate "I" looking at the second....me and the body up to me and sorrow....when there is one item, one entity and may be so much more...which does not need words to be define as such...unless we try to talk about of course...

well not to sure ...cheers..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 23 Apr 2016.

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Sat, 23 Apr 2016 #258
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The point may be, Dan, that our mind & brain can give a lot of (illusory) meaning to its own beliefs-(perhaps a simple matter of 'endorphins') and the young people are especially good at that-So, yes it is very possible that the brain is creating for itself 2 different worlds (or mental spaces) the world we'd like to live in and the 'real' world in which...we have to live. So it's something like a self sustained schizophrenia. Now, to his great merit K pointed constantly at this contradiction between 'what is' and 'what should be' ...to the extent of making it a common sense statement
So again, we're back again to that fine old statement "The Buddha only points, but it's you who have to do the walking"...

Well yes John ,that can be the only way..as we se practical matters can be taught ,integrally taught , passed on to the next generation...here in the concern subject as we know it, it is a different matter...

just that signifies or rather suggests that possibly our usual tool we have since birth is not the right one..

so what is left? as mentioned in the other Dan's k quote ??

Dan ...........

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Mon, 25 Apr 2016 #259
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Hi, Dan, I guess that in the just posted Q&A Ojai text there's a very good description (also...decrypted ?) made by K about 'insight'. In fact we all do have instant ('gut' ?) perceptions about a lot of things but the inward zone is somehow kept 'perception free'

here it is so :

K: "Insight" means insight into the
whole movement of life, not just into
one part of it. "Insight" can only
take place when thought" is absent as
memory. Think it out (negatively:) it
is not the result of 'calculation', or
conclusions, but simply a "perception
without the past", seeing the thing
completely. Like when you see, for
example, that all the "established"
religion- whether in India, here or
anywhere else- is... what it is. When
you have an insight into you are free
of all dogma, rituals, beliefs, you
don't belong to any group, to any
guru. Such 'insight' is possible only
when you are really "attentive", when
your "whole being wants to find out".

But before to eventually expand, what do you mean by this:

but the inward zone is somehow kept 'perception free'

thanks.

Dan ...........

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Mon, 25 Apr 2016 #260
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

Are you saying here that it is absolutely necessary for there to be a sense of 'I' in every creature to keep itself safe from predators and to protect its young etc. And that that is not a 'psychological 'I' but is in the body, in the organism. But in us it has become psychological as well as physical and moved from being a 'simple' survival requisite, it expanded and included 'pleasure', attachment, psychological 'rewards'...sorrow, fear, confusion and doubt as well as joy and satisfaction? And that we still possess all those instinctual behaviors of our ancestors but this 'new' possibility quickly outstripped them in effectiveness, and ingenuity? With 'thought/thinking' it was now possible to imagine a 'future' and recall a 'past' and act accordingly and ultimately 'rule' the planet?

"So, psychologically speaking it may be a matter of critically reconsidering the validity of this 'core' memory and (if lucky ?) to recycle some (or all ?) of the intelligent 'psy' energy that got trapped there."

And this "reconsideration" can take place in a kind of 'meditation' that 'allows' the body its own 'awareness' and the thought/thinking process its own 'awareness' without the 'overseeing'(or presence) of a possessive, separate, analyzing 'me'?

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 25 Apr 2016.

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Tue, 26 Apr 2016 #261
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
what is left like at the end of the day like when you mention this: You mean not be 'identified with 'my' body?, you mean not be 'identified with 'my' precious thoughts? Or my 'goals'? ( I can myself add , not with my sorrow)
So what's left!!

Hi Dan,

One thing that seems very important in all this is the old physical body, the 'horse'...a bit neglected in all this mental stuff. Directing the attention on to different parts of the body acts like a kind of 'anchor'. I don't know if you have tried it. And though it seems that there is an 'I' separate from and 'becoming' aware of the sensation in the hands say, it actually is the 'hand being aware of itself',isn't it? . In the same way that that interesting suggestion of K. asked if the "thought can become aware of itself"?...The attention is 'directed' to whatever thought is present but since the thinker and the thought are 'one' there really are only the thoughts( aware of themselves?) . Keeping the sensation of the body 'awake' as well as the thought awake at the same time, is a bit like 'juggling'... but without the 'juggler'. In fact, this morning, an interesting question arose in all this: Where is the sensation of 'myself' located, in what part of the physical body is the sensation of 'I' located, connected with...?

Anyway...it seems all to do with 'awareness' somehow.( the more the better?)

Cheers.

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #262
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
One thing that seems very important in all this is the old physical body, the 'horse'...a bit neglected in all this mental stuff. Directing the attention on to different parts of the body acts like a kind of 'anchor'. I don't know if you have tried it. And though it seems that there is an 'I' separate from and 'becoming' aware of the sensation in the hands say, it actually is the 'hand being aware of itself',isn't it? . In the same way that that interesting suggestion of K. asked if the "thought can become aware of itself"?

Hello Dan...

I never tried what you suggest here. So I do not know its effects, sorry. I am not willing to go into that for myself, it is only my appreciation of it...

In my view the "I" is not a problem as such, it is the entire analytical program which is due to a possible bug...itself due to the absence of some missing capacities, not a guess I and many have met some, somehow, to various degrees ....for me something goes very wrong with "me" (global), pain ,sorrow, and all of it indicates that for me...to say that, it means that I have decided that life is not war, not conflict, not business, not money, not far, not pain etc...but there are such things...

then what? the limited thinking process is rapidly overwhelmed by all those problems, or it gets a bit used to them and become a mind of metal, cold , and-or it sinks in various form of escapisms which seem to never ever have worked to solve those mental problems...at least since some kind of + or- 3000 years..hard to say with all this false history spread..

So all of a sudden I see that what is called pre-history may contain so much interesting stuff in its factual reality, not in the fantasies we are told ..but this is another subject.

Theoretically any single divided person is fighting all the universe....pure nonsense it is..

the I for me is the analyser, the one who knows , the censor as k put it...a bunch of desires and fears, escapes, etc...so a program...which goes wrong..

then the explanations can go on ad libitum, the analyser is "thrilled" with it of course as it is its field of activity, I would not even now say of global competences in my view it is a failure ..it feeds on that and anything on that wavelength...

And here I pause , and say OK, this cannot go on , I refuse that, too heavy, too meaningless, too little it brings, etc..

and what if what is needed to go into all that properly is not awake yet....but this is a guess if not lived somehow...

So here it is important to make a factual difference between guesses and facts, lived facts..

I think we find k on the latest, telling his facts which can have a wide value...for all , for some...

now back to your post and k asking can thought be aware of itself ?

here it is like entering a field where words can well be treacherous ...thought can be aware of suffering, does it know that it is its suffering ? No it does not....

it sees it as something apart from itself...something that must go away....so that can go away, simply by wishing it....so childish and dangerous..

for myself I now know that dukkah suffering sorrow discontentment frustration pain anxiety etc etc are symptoms of wrongness, they indicate that...

here is ,for my own life at least, a crucial turning point...which had been ,still is , to be defeated by the painful symptom ...and to do something unusual , not expected, contradictory to thought imperialism , which is to say because this is the real feeling behind: I am too fed up with all that....I stop interfering, willing anything, I am defeated ...if this is factual then what is unpredictable, can not be search for etc will eventually take place under the form it wishes....

the explanations come after...they will take the form of insights,flashes etc etc

there is a guidance for us behind that, a learning which his there..which needs no book and is basically there for anyone....living its own self created pain is a possibility for anyone as attempting to run away from it ,that we all do is too....it does not need a particular intellect, a school, a society, violence, hierarchy ....on the contrary..the intellect being the problem....it is its malfunction which is going to awake anyone going in that direction..which I admit is so unusual...

this is not at all a discovery as such and far far from it...talk to the Buddha about that..and more....but for the person living that, it is a discovery or rather an up to date download.Then all programs can eventually function smoothly..

you mention awareness, sorry again like I say to John but this word is part of those words which leave me blank...nothing wrong with you or anyone using that word, it seems to be the way my own program seems to function ....how bad anyway..
.

to be continued up the the last day...

kenavo ar wouez all....this is Breton a Celtic language from the up-west coast of France, so Brittany where I am from...that was my grand parents only language born around years 1900...

it means "bye see you next time"...

thanks for the sharing

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 27 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #263
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your remarks. My 'approach' is pretty simplistic at this point after so many years of interest in all this. But it has come down to this 'belief' that life here as a human being 'should' be a Joy. That is, if we can avoid being eaten by something much stronger than ourselves (not happening that much nowadays), or being under a bomb or being in a prison etc.,etc. That is what the Christs, Buddhas, K.s have said: it's all about 'Love' and most of us (any of us?) can't find it. And, they say that there is a reason (s) that we can't find it, can't realize it in our lifetimes, and they have set out the reasons for that lack as best as they could...for example:

K."Is it possible for (the process of ?) 'thought' to realize its own place, which is in the "world of technique", but that it has no place "psychologically"? Just look at it: when I have an "image" about myself and you tread on that "image", that hurts. That ( lingering memory of having been hurt ?) is the element ( creating its own compensatory process ?) of time."

I believe that this is true, so I take his suggestion seriously as to whether "thought can become aware of itself". Because if thought can't be aware of itself as it pours unendingly out of the brain, how could it (or the brain) possibly come to the realization of "its own place", the realization that it is in the 'wrong place'?...so as K. has also suggested, take your 'belief' and find your own "method" to find out the truth of this. Hence the question: Can thought become aware of 'itself', not 'me', the 'analyzer' observing 'my' thoughts, but the thought itself 'alive' and 'aware' of itself? It's an 'experiment' to find out, and it's strange and it's 'hard', and it's 'difficult to do' and to 'persist' at ...because the 'conditioning' is so strong against it?.. but what else is there but to 'try'?

As K. used to say" "Do it sir!"

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #264
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As K. used to say" "Do it sir!"

Hello Dan...

Dan McDermott wrote:
.so as K. has also suggested, take your 'belief' and find your own "method" to find out the truth of this. Hence the question: Can thought become aware of 'itself', not 'me', the 'analyser' observing 'my' thoughts, but the thought itself 'alive' and 'aware' of itself? It's an 'experiment' to find out, and it's strange and it's 'hard', and it's 'difficult to do' and to 'persist' at ...because the 'conditioning' is so strong against it?.. but what else is there but to 'try'?

In what I know for myself, so this is relative to me only of course, what we call suffering, a word which already indicates that we want to get rid of that, is the only symptom-catalyst which works..if it is not used....a paradox yes which is not one in fact..

the program we call thought and that I call analytical process is far too good-bad at what it does, even wrongly of course, that to by pass it, my view is that no search will ever do that..

I do not see ( for me) any other mean to start with other than what we call suffering, this is handy as it wipes away all other subjects..and to keep with it as long as it is present...
it indicates and contain a catalyst to be left alone is what I experienced now many many times for myself...

so I do not go along with k words at all, yet each time I find something unusual it was there, but but, would be taken analytically only...as long as suffering is put aside or ignored, or tamed or faced etc etc I think that nothing real and deep beyond thought will ever happen

the analyser must fail...is what I know..

now can thought become aware of itself..when defeated by one's self created pain of any sort, the origin right now does not matter, what matters is the symptom which tries to speak to us , when defeated by thought so when the analytical process is reaching the point where it is absolutely fed up with such nonsensical and painful life..then when so weak is it only able to stop interfering..and the first time it happened to me, without searching for anything I was able to hear thoughts and yet not to listen because "something" else was able to do such thing, immediately after having been defeated and having said this words: I am too fed up, I can't fight anymore, I am defeated , I let all this be Whatever happens ....

I have to be personal personal here otherwise what I say does not make sense at all...but it was and is lived from time to time...it is not a fantasy.

so is it the analyser(thought) which is aware of itself? this I don't know for sure...but for myself it is not thought it is something else like some other awakening capacity I already met before....but that is not important in my view, what matters here is what takes place....and what take place is a liberating factor...which brings many side effects as it wishes....

recently step by step I was "informed" of some of the analytical program itself....seeing why desires are vital for this system to function etc..

in my view this deserve a real dialogue to go far enough..

well that is all folks...;-=))

cheers Dan...

Dan ...........

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #265
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

the analyser must fail...is what I know..

Yes, agreed but not in the technological realm, where it belongs and is indispensable. But in the psychological, it must fail because there it is not 'aware' that it is 'out of place'...and it persists in searching for 'answers' to 'problems' (such as 'suffering',etc.) that have actually been 'created' as a result of this false duality of an 'analyzer', a 'thinker' apart and separate from 'thought'. (But they are one and the same.) So the 'solution' may indeed lie in thought being absolutely silent when it is neither useful, nor beneficial, but that seems to be the one action it is incapable of. (The 'solution'(s), you know, may be just around the corner ...that never-ending corner!)

P.S. I do get from what you have said that you understand this from K:

" To understand conflict and to be able to examine it with freedom, there must be a certain disinterested tranquillity. But when we are in conflict or in sorrow our instinctive response is to escape from it, to run away from its cause, not to face its hidden significance; so we seek various channels of escape: activity, amusement, gods, war. So distractions multiply; they become more important than the cause of sorrow itself; we then become intolerant of the means of escape of others and try to modify or reform them, but conflict and sorrow continue."

Cheers again.

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

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Wed, 22 Jun 2016 #266
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
On awakening, Krishnaji said he had dreamt of Nitya—that they were walking where there were deep cement canals that had been built. The water hadn’t been let in yet and he was afraid Nitya would fall in and he was shouting at him.

Krishnaji said that he dreamed that Rajagopal said to him, “Why didn’t you tell me you would turn out like this?” and Krishnaji told him, “Because you behaved like such a bastard.”’

Hello John,

I just noticed that k was dreaming too, as on some other thread it was said that he never dreamt..not a big deal anyway?? yet it is factual now.

John Raica wrote:
‘Me: “Am I supposed to just stand there if someone was physically attacking you?”’

‘Krishnaji: “No, that would be different.”’

Dan: this may sound a detail like , for me it is not...K would not be as passive as some, most, would think if a situation needs it...I already got that from many little sentences like this..

Dan McDermott wrote:
“I don’t know if you believe in ghosts, but I’ve been seeing Mrs. Gandhi standing there.” He indicated a spot about two feet from where I was sitting at the right end of the sofa. He said that she stood there, looking at him, for more than a minute, and then disappeared.

I do not know about that nor have I any talent in any of those fields, but my actual companion and my ex one had that non controllable talent too as well as some others I don't have like seeing the aura naturally since young or curing some skin problems and more etc, it always leaves a very very strange feeling about it mentioning the "ghost" seeing part, even years after when recalling it...especially when it is about known persons..as it was many times.

Dan McDermott wrote:
There was a long talk with Krishnaji in the morning about all the foundations. “It is watching,” he said. He speaks as if "that something" is deciding what happens to him. “It” will decide when his work is done and hence, by implication, his life.

that is the "it" you were mentioning John....all proportions kept as of course I am not a sort of k nor will I ever be, nor anyone will anyway...but this reminds me of this direct telepathic contact during the kthing....except that "it" was a she...where was she from, what was she etc ? not a single clue I have...it seems that some people have such moments...but we do not know what it is about, may be some do ?? Just telling ..

strange, very strange indeed !!

John Raica wrote:
Toward the end of the meal, Krishnaji asked the question, *“Is humanity disintegrating?” “Is there some part of the brain that refuses this disintegration? If there is, will that turn it around? Something that will break the ( vicious ?) circle? Is there some part of the brain that rejects conditioning?…I am into something.”

;-)

John Raica wrote:
When the body goes, it may be tomorrow, it may be in ten years, but it is a strange feeling. It has all been completely planned.”’

John Raica wrote:
There are things you don’t know, enormous, and I can’t tell you. It is very hard to find a brain like this, and it must keep on as long as the body can; until something says, ‘enough.

John Raica wrote:
Yesterday, Krishnaji said almost to himself, “What have I done wrong?…I’ve tried to take care of the body

John Raica wrote:
January twenty-seventh. ‘To the hospital early. Krishnaji said to me, “I want to tell you something. It is hard to find words. You must have an insight into it. I will die, and I want to leave you something. In India they are too quick to think they understand these things. I am sceptical. One must be. But Americans are immature. You must just listen without trying to understand. I feel it is something more vast than one can ever put into words.

John Raica wrote:
February fourteenth: ‘Krishnaji slept without pill or morphine but at 4 a.m. the pain returned. A new nurse, gave morphine. In the ten minutes it took to work, he had me press on his stomach. “Too good to be true. Sorrow, I thought I’d lost you.” The high voice groaned with pain and the low voice came in, “Don’t make such a fuss about it.”

No comments on my last "selection"...

Any biographies as well as early writing are deeply interesting too...it is about more than the "teaching"...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 22 Jun 2016.

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Fri, 24 Jun 2016 #267
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 537 posts in this forum Offline

More lost & found 'pages from K's life ( dutyfully recorded by Mrs Zimbalist ) Who said they are 'boring' ?

Mary (Lutyens) told, jokingly, of a sentence she had censored in Krishnaji’s letters to her mother. He had written from Ojai, “I am going to Santa Barbara, where I will cook a millionaire.”’ To our amazement and hilarity, Krishnaji said, “Yes, and she only gave a hundred dollars!”’ ‘It was a Mrs. Bliss. (For a man who cannot remember so many things he suddenly remembered this!)

*

‘Narayan, Fritz Wilhelm, and David Bohm had planned to have a discussion. Krishnaji said he would sit in “as an observer.” Dorothy and I also were present. Once there, of course, Krishnaji participated.

They began to examine the way a child learns, motor-learning, action-learning, then touch, etcetera. After a bit, Krishnaji jumped it way forward to insight. He asked if our consciousness can be aware of itself. He said that if insight is not acted upon, it dies. He spoke of observation in which there is no distortion; distortion is the "me". He said there is no action before insight. If there is action, it is the action of learning. Dave said humans handle their lives through "action-learning", therefore, insight must be different. Bohm said, “You say insight comes before action, something goes beyond action—what is it? Perception? Krishnaji said there was fragmentary perception. “Insight implies holistic action, which affects my daily life, the way I live, feel, love.
Dave said that then motor-learning is a limited perception and insight is when it is whole. Krishnaji said he had yesterday picked up his biography and read about dissolving the Order of the Star . “And I said, How did he do it? He had tremendous insight—he did it.” Krishnaji went on to say that insight doesn’t come out of learning. Dave pointed out that Krishnaji emphasizes observation and learning. Isn’t it necessary?

Krishnaji said it helps free the mind. Narayan said that Krishnaji had once spoken of the art of listening, the art of looking, and the art of learning—the three arts. Do they precede insight? Krishnaji replied, “They open the door, but it doesn’t mean that there will be insight. He didn’t do these—he simply said, “This is absurd.”… “The point is how we move out of the pattern. Looking, listening, learning is in the pattern.”… “Can you have insight without compassion? But he (as a child) didn’t know the meaning of the word.”…“There is 'outward-going' and 'inward-going'. Most of us are 'outward-going', linear. That means he was entirely inward-going at that time. He was not an extrovert. There was insight. That is what I want to get at. I wish I could study him.

Can consciousness become aware of itself? Is there a mirror in which consciousness sees itself—the three arts ? David asked, “What does it learn?” Krishnaji replied, “Its content. I think it can. I say, yes it can.”…“Can consciousness listen to itself without an outsider listening in?”…“Have you ever seen a body from the outside?”’
‘“Can consciousness listen to itself? What happens? Nothing happens. There is empty space, absolutely nothing. No observer, only 'that'.”’

What is insight? There must be a certain foundation. The foundation is "non-self". Insight 'is' (occuring) in the absence of self. When consciousness is aware of itself, and there is 'no-thing', then there is insight. That nothingness is insight. Insight is emptiness and non-self.

‘“Consciousness becomes aware of itself, and there is no-thing, no content.”…“How am I to communicate this? If ( a holistic) education isn’t (helping) the flowering of human beings, it has no meaning.”’
‘“Without love, compassion, there is no fine mind. No fine mind without insight, observation.”’
‘At the end, he said, “This morning while I played (the disc with) Southerland singing Bellini there flashed a great delight I missed in my youth. I said, ‘What the hell are you looking at there? It is here.’ That was insight.”’

*
First there is freedom, then insight, revolutionary action. If they stiffen into a pattern, then follows dogma and power. Freedom is movement. When or if insight becomes knowledge, then dogma follows. Freedom from self brings insight. When there is insight, there is radical transformation, which is freedom. When fundamental change does not take place, then there is pattern, dogma, and power. It is the function of the Foundations to see this doesn’t happen.

*

Krishnaji spent the day in bed sleeping, reading. He said, “I don’t dream anymore. Somewhere in Madras or RishiValley, I forget which, I dreamt Rajagopal was chasing me and then I woke up. I said this is silly to keep thinking of that man. That is enough. And so I went into it, and I haven’t dreamt since.”

*

Krishnaji at lunch said that the Sanskrit root meaning of mantra is interesting: Man means 'reflect on non-becoming'. 'Tra' means to destroy, to finish with self-centered activity.”’

*

(1977) Near the big rock, he said, “You must see into this brain, learn how he thinks. Amma and Leadbeater said this brain had been prepared for a thousand years. It is a special brain. It will probably get better the longer I live, and I will live another ten or fifteen years. You are twenty years younger, you must outlive me. I must find someone, maybe it is you, someone to carry on who has understood something. I wish I had met you forty years ago.”’

*

Along the beach road, he said, “During the last three or four months, something has been happening during sleep. It sounds silly, but it is a sense of ecstasy, as though the brain were trying to assimilate a "depth". Dreams are usually superficial and have very little meaning. I have hardly any dreams.”’

‘I asked, “How do you perceive it?”’

‘Krishnaji replied, “When I wake up, there is a strange feeling that I haven’t had before.”’

‘Me: “Is it that the brain is touching something it hadn’t touched before?”’

‘Krishnaji: “Yes. That’s it. It is something the brain hasn’t touched before. It isn’t an 'experience'. In that sleep, there is a greater penetration into something that the brain —no, thought- can never touch.”’

‘Me: “What happens to most people is that you see something and then you try to understand what it is, but this is different? How is it different? Is it outside the realm of what the brain can investigate? Is that right?”’

‘Krishnaji: “The brain is trying to understand it, trying to find out what it is.”’

‘Me: “When you say ‘the brain,’ do you mean thought, or the brain without thought?”’

‘Krishnaji: “No, not thought.” A little later, he said, “You remember that night we were sitting quietly and there was "something" in the room? That has been happening more. It happened in India a little.” I asked him about the pain, and he said it is going on slightly all the time. I asked if the “otherness” of The Notebook and this thing he is speaking of today, is of the same, and he said, “Yes, yes”…“But I don’t remember ‘the other.’ It is gone.”’

*

February twenty-fifth (1977) , ‘Krishnaji slept badly. He said he had a nightmare. “Evil ones were trying to push me, fight me, and I was trying to make a circle around myself, but it didn’t work and I finally woke up.”…“I was trying to make a circle around the house. I knew you were in there, and I was trying to make a circle.”’

‘When I questioned him about why the 'circle' didn’t work, he said. “Well, it did because I woke up.” Then we started to talk about 'making the circle', and he said it was something he didn’t want to talk about.

‘I asked, “Was it magic?”’

‘And he said, “Yes, sort of.”’

‘I asked, “Did you learn it? Were you taught it?” He replied no, but he knows things like that.

I asked why shouldn’t it be told to other people?
And he said, “I have an 'instinct' about it. I’ve never talked about it.” Then he said, “Do you remember when we first came to this house?”’—he was referring to Pine Cottage—‘“I wanted to run from it, it was bad, it was all wrong. And then we came and stayed, and it became alright, and it got better and better. Do you remember that?”

And out of this, he told me he 'does this thing' whenever he comes to a house, Brockwood, Malibu, here, or I presume Tannegg too, or a hotel room. He does what he calls “drawing a circle around a place” and he said that that is one reason that when he is not with me, it is difficult for him to do it—when I’m traveling or away, and yet even when I go to town in the car alone, he does it to some degree to protect me. One does not protect Maria or oneself. One is with non-resistance, non-opposition, non-setting oneself— there is no self in this because there is no opposition—the intrinsic part is the non-self and non-opposition. He spoke of 'angels', not angels as 'sentimental beings'—that blah, as he put it—but the invitation to the good, the beauty.

*

He spoke of a "mine of gold"; are we going to stop at the edge of the cave? What are we going to do about the mine of gold?”…“I’m going to pursue this for the rest of my life with the Foundations. It happened we are together. My job is very clear for the next ten years. Whenever we meet, I’m going to push this thing. What is your 'dharma'? A good word, but spoilt. Dharma means 'sustain the original'—if I may use that word with tremendous hesitation. It is not understood in the West.”

K says this "(gold) mine" is a sacred treasure. I leave it to you. What will you do with it? My dharma has become very clear in these meetings, apart from the public meetings, to push and pull you into the cave. I feel this tremendously. I accept that.

*

‘Krishnaji said, “No human being has refused to go through all this (fear, etc.) and said I won’t operate in my conditioned response. If he did, something other may take place. Something other does take place when you look at the whole thing.”…“Yet, that man, K, never said that, he just did it. The demand for the essence of excellence washes everything else way. It is possible.…One must have passion for excellence.”… “Total insight is the flame that burns away all confusion.”…“Don’t you then act as a magnet when you are passionate to bring about transformation? Passion may be what is missing. If it is missing, ask for it!

*( lost & found excerpts from a 'casual' K conversation with David Bohm and Mary in 1977)

Krishnaji: There are other "forces". You may use the word 'evil'. There are people in the world who are "evil".

David Bohm: Would you say (the action of these) forces penetrate beyond the ordinary communication ?

Krishnaji: They penetrate only when "that interest" is not in charge.

Bohm: What is not clear to me is, suppose there is an evil person, making evil through his words and actions. But suppose I don’t see him. He is somewhere, far away.

Krishnaji: But there is a very well-known phenomenon (of telepathy ?) . I can think about you with affection, care, or I can hate you.

Bohm: How does that hate affect you when you are far away?

Krishnaji: Yes, that’s what I mean.

David: Then, there is ( telepathic) transmission of thought?

Krishnaji: Oh, obviously, obviously.

David: “Yes... Well, it is important to get it clear, because it contradicts what people usually accept, but you are quite clear on that? Quite sure of it?

Krishnaji: I’m quite sure. Personally, when I go to a place which I’m not familiar with, where I haven’t lived, say when I first came here (in Ojai) after ten years, I came through that door. I felt appalling, I said to her: I (wanted to ) ran out.

David: But, how is it now?

‘Krishnaji: Nothing. It’s all gone.

David: But what happened?

Krishnaji: Because the "other thing" is stronger, it cannot be touched. That’s why whenever a doctor said to me, ‘Do you want it?’”’—meaning a general anesthesia—‘“by injection, a total anesthesia…(the answer is 'no' ?) ’

‘David: Would you say, suppose you took an anesthetic could an 'evil thought' take hold of you?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, but I don’t want to go through all that. Of course.

‘Mary: Is it relevant to ask what is the difference between the "unconsciousness" of anesthesiology and sleep?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, that’s entirely different. There, it is natural. This is unnatural.

‘Mary: Because it is imposed?

‘Krishnaji: You are forced, you’re driven out.

David: Now, with sleep, would you say there is still a kind of attention (going on) ?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, yes. That Intelligence is watching.

*

In the evening, Krishnaji spoke to me about not letting him 'slip away' in the hospital. I must talk to him, remind him, be watchful after the operation. He said that the (consciousness of the ?) body for the last three days has been resisting the (prostate) operation, and that the danger is that he, Krishnaji, might suddenly say, “That is enough,” and 'slip out'. The (fine) line between life and death is always there; it has happened to him in the past; it happened here in Ojai when he was walking in the mountains; it has happened in India when he “goes off” and “wanders away,” and that could happen here. He said he must not take any sedation, but in particular I must be "watchful". I asked what I could do, and he said to talk, to talk to him. It wouldn’t happen with strangers about, but after he comes back to his room after the operation, I must talk to him. I must remind him, too, in the morning before he goes down to surgery. I must also remind him before he gives blood. I must be watchful. Last night, when we were joking about a “home loan,” which was being advertised on television, I jokingly said, “Do you wish to apply for a home loan?” and he said, yes. And I said, “For what purpose?” And, he said, “For an operation,” which threw me, because since he made the decision to have the operation, he hasn’t referred to it except very factually, and suddenly in the middle of a joking conversation, I realized it is in his mind to some degree. Sometime later, I asked if he didn’t want to have the operation. Should we cancel it? And he said, no, no. It is decided, and this morning, I asked him again if we should not have it. “No. If one neglects it and there is a 'stoppage', it would be much worse.” But, I must 'remind' him.

*

Abdullah and Ms. Habib were there. They asked Krishnaji about thought being matter, etcetera. Thought as matter dies with the body, which is matter, but Krishnaji implies thought in some form enters a 'stream of (collective) consciousness' and continues.

Abdullah asked about reincarnation, and Krishnaji said the body and mind die, but "thought" is like an energy put out by the mind, and it is matter and continues as evil exists, as good exists, the good put out by man, etc

*

( summer 1977) After she (the hospital nurse) left, he took my hand, then had me sit near, but not too near the bed. “This is the danger point. I feel like going off, not fainting, you understand.” I talked quietly to him as he had instructed me, but now he stopped me, “No, no. You mustn’t say anything. You mustn’t interfere. You mustn’t think about anything.” He had me move the chair to the foot of the bed opposite him. His face became inward-turned, slightly hallucinated look. This was interrupted by Lailee coming in to see him.Dr Hausman had left orders for Demarol if needed, and Lailee told the nurse, Ms. Mitchell, to give him a tiny dose, what one would give a child. It was given, and he began to feel a dizziness from it. “Is this normal?” he asked several times. It cut the pain, but soon made him sick to his stomach, and he vomited several times.

Hallucinatory look increased. He kept telling the nurse to go and have her supper, which she had had earlier. It was by now a little before 9 p.m. When she was out of the room, he told me, “I felt the body floating and there was a dialogue between death and the body and ‘the Other,’ and death was winning.” He became aware that the nurse had returned to the darkened room, and this seemed to bring him out of the state he had been in.

We were able to talk about this in spite of her comings and goings. And he said there was nothing I could do, not to interfere. I pointed out that the nurse’s presence had brought him round. But he said, “It will come again tonight until it is settled.” Soon, he lapsed again into the “off” state and said that since five this morning, so many people have touched the body, and he began to count them, and said, “About ten have touched me.” There was a sense of irritation in all that had been done to him and soon he began to look about as though seeing things, making random gestures, raising his right arm.

Then, “Where am I?” Pause. “I have been wounded,” looking about. Then, “Where’s my brother Nitya?” The voice was light, higher, almost that of a boy. Then “I want to join you, Nitya.” And then, “I’m going away.”

I said, “No Krishna. You are going to be well and strong.” After a few seconds, he made a deep-sounding cough, his normal cough, and his voice dropped to its normal level, and he said, “That’s better.” And then, “I’m not going. I’ll join you later, Nitya, much later, another ten years.” Later, he said, “One mustn’t be burdened with the past.” And later, he said, “You and I mustn’t be in an automobile accident, so drive carefully.” And later, “I’m not a philosopher.”’

‘Finally, after about an hour, he seemed to come out of it and spoke directly to me. “I’m all right now.”

May tenth. ‘Krishnaji was reading when I came in at 6 a.m. He is much better. No pain. Lailee came in early and so did Hausman. Krishnaji didn’t want solid breakfast, but I made a little muesli and some of his usual food, and he ate it saying “L’appétit vient en mangeant.”

After Hausman’s visit, Krishnaji dictated to me a dialogue with death which is, at least partly, already in Mary Lutyens’s book.

“It was a minor operation and not worth talking about, though there was considerable pain. While the pain continued, I saw or discovered that the body was almost floating in the air. It may have been an illusion, some kind of hallucination, but a few minutes later, there was the personification of death. Watching this peculiar phenomenon between the body and death, there seemed to be a sort of dialogue between them. Death seemed to be talking to the body with great insistence, and the body reluctantly, not admitting what death wanted. Though there were people in the room, this phenomenon went on, death inviting, the body refusing. It was not a fear of death why the body was denying the demands of death, but it realized it was not responsible for itself, there was another "entity" that was dominating, much stronger, more vital than death itself.

Death was more and more demanding and insisting and so ‘the Other’(spiritual entity ?) interfered. Then there was a conversation or a dialogue between not only the body, but ‘the Other’ and death. So, there were three entities in conversation. He had warned before he went to the hospital that there might be a 'dis-association' with the body and so death might interfere. Though the (MZ) person was sitting there, and a nurse, it was not a self-deception or kind of hallucination. Lying in the bed he saw the clouds full of rain and the town below stretching for miles. There was spattering of rain on the window pane and he saw clearly the saline solution dripping drop by drop into the organism. One felt very distinctly and clearly that if ‘the Other’ had not interfered, death would have won.

This 'dialogue' was expressed in words with thought operating very clearly. There was thunder and lightning and the conversation went on. Since there was no fear at all, neither on the part of the body or ‘the Other’—absolutely no fear—one could converse freely and profoundly. It is always difficult to put a 'conversation' of that kind into words. Strangely, as there was no fear, death was not enchaining the mind to things of the past. What came out of the conversation was very clear. The body in considerable pain and was not apprehensive or anxious and ‘the Other’ was discernibly beyond both. It was as though ‘the Other’ were acting as an 'umpire', a dangerous game of which the body was not at all aware. Even if it was, there would be no withdrawal from the scene.

Death seemed to be always present, like one’s shadow. Being concerned with the whole movement of life, death cannot be 'invited'. But, death and the living, in this peculiar phenomenon that was going on, the three, would never be separate. During this 'conversation' there was no sense of time. Probably the whole dialogue lasted about an hour and the time by the watch did not exist. There were no words used but an immediate insight into what each was saying. (Of course, if one is attached to anything—ideas, beliefs, property or person, death would not come to have a conversation with you) 'Death' in the sense of ending is absolute freedom.

The quality of conversation was 'urbane'. There was nothing whatsoever of sentimental, emotional extravagance to distort the absolute fact of time coming to an end and the vastness without any border when death is taking part in your daily life. There was the feeling that the body would go on for many years but death and ‘the Other’ would always be together till the organism could no longer be active. There was a great 'sense of humor' among the three of them and one could almost hear the laughter. And the beauty of it was with the clouds and the rain.”’

PS: When in the evening, he did have me reread the whole piece, I pointed that he’d been speaking of death, “the Other,” and the body, and now he referred to death, K, and the body—so he changed that sentence, putting “the Other” in place of “K.” “You know what I mean by ‘the Other,’” he said. “The "mind" that is inhabited by K.”’

This post was last updated by John Raica Fri, 24 Jun 2016.

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Fri, 24 Jun 2016 #268
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

Hi John and All,

I have a question and perhaps someone or all would like to help me understand what is going on? I believe that K.'s many suggestions regarding whether thought/the brain-mind, can become "aware" of itself is very important, perhaps even key. What I find in trying this is that yes it is possible for short periods of time for this to seemingly be the case; it, the thought can 'awaken' to itself and it can be seen that the 'self', 'me', the 'thinker' apart is not really the case at all; they are one and the same 'process'. But as I said this is rather short lived and usually occurs when 'sitting quietly'. Now a separate phenomena occurs when say after listening to or playing a song, that song or melody will keep repeating itself over and over in the brain (I guess this is quite an ordinary experience.) My question is while it is quite 'easy' for me to be aware of the melody (which is aware of itself?), in fact, there is difficulty ending it, the same is not true as regards 'my' thoughts. Is K. pointing at that possibility of the normal thinking process becoming as 'visible', 'audible' as the repetitive process of the song? Or are they on two different 'levels', frequencies, the thinking (with the 'I' process'), being much 'deeper' with a different 'priority' and much more difficult for it to 'awaken' and become 'aware of itself'?

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 24 Jun 2016.

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Sat, 25 Jun 2016 #269
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 159 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for the response John,

Reading this quote from a talk in Ojai in '52, it seemed a particularly 'grim' assessment of our situation: the brain caught in a process of constantly seeking new 'experience'(sensations) from a "dead center" without a seeming ending. Much like an addiction, but not to any object, but to the process itself...Is this the description of the (overworked) 'analyzer' that Dan often mentions?:

Ojai, California | 8th Public Talk, 24th August, 1952

"My mind is always experiencing in terms of sensation, it is the instrument of sensation. Being bored with a particular sensation, I seek a new sensation, which may be what I call the realization of God; but it is still sensation. I have had enough of this world and its travail, and I want peace, the peace that is everlasting; so I meditate, control, I shape my mind in order to experience that peace. The experiencing of that peace is still sensation. So my mind is the mechanical instrument of sensation, of memory, a dead centre from which I act, think. The objects I pursue are the projections of the mind as symbols from which it derives sensations. The word "God", the word "love", the word" communism", the word "democracy", the word "nationalism" - these are all symbols which give sensations to the mind, and therefore the mind clings to them. As you and I know, every sensation comes to an end, and so we proceed from one sensation to another; and every sensation strengthens the habit of seeking further sensation. So, the mind becomes merely an instrument of sensation and memory, and in that process we are caught. As long as the mind is seeking further experience, it can only think in terms of sensation; and any experience that may be spontaneous, creative, vital, strikingly new, it immediately reduces to sensation, and pursues that sensation, which then becomes a memory. Therefore the experience is dead and the mind becomes merely a stagnant pool of the past."

When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 25 Jun 2016.

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Sun, 26 Jun 2016 #270
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 537 posts in this forum Offline

Continuing the 'lost and found ' pages about K from MZ's memos

(1970) He asked me if I felt any presence of Sam (her husband) after he died. I said yes. We discussed what is evidence and what is imagination. I said I felt it strongly but neither saw objectively nor heard anything. It was a strong sense of presence and communication, real to me, but I cannot offer it as objective evidence to another.

Krishnaji said to me, “You can tell the difference between imagination and a 'something'.” I asked how one can assess such things. "I don’t assert anything because I cannot see how it can be proven. But I pay attention and do not deny any part of it".

Krishnaji then spoke of change and listening, i.e., ‘“if you really listen and see, that erases the habit, the previous imprint. The "new" then functions in the mind and whenever an action of the old pattern arises the mind alerts the consciousness, the conscious attention.” He spoke of my bad habit of frowning, and the need for “a quiet face”’—he always used to say to me, “Have a quiet face”—‘remains because I haven’t seen the importance of changing them. If I had, the old pattern would be erased, he said. He said, “The body sometimes takes time to relearn, but the mind can be instantly alert, therefore, to listen, to see, to change, to wipe out the old pattern. Lack of change is inattention,” he said.

*

Toward the end of lunch, Krishnaji began to ask Dick Clarke about what Krishnaji was like when they found him. Clarke seemed to remember it all clearly. Krishnaji kept at him with questions, holding Clarke’s left hand and ticking off the questions on his fingers. Krishnaji seemed to feel that what “the boy” was like and whatever went on in his mind—as he kept asking—eluded him.’ In other words, he seemed to feel that it eluded him. But for me, the picture was a true line throughout; the dreamy child who when punished by the school master would stand on the veranda until told to leave, who often had to be fetched home by his little brother, was a gentle, compliant boy who replied to his TS elders, “Whatever you say” when asked about doing something. He was polite and accepting, but not really touched by their world; it went in one ear and out the other. He learned outward things: manners, speech, witnessed the TS goings-on, but it left little mark; he was "elsewhere". He remembers vaguely standing by the Adyar River for hours, staring at it, vacant. *This vacancy was some 'otherness' that protected him, let whatever he is grow, mature very slowly. It protected him from most of the pulls of life later on, from the brutalities of Rajagopal and Rosalind. It is there today when he is “off,” when he sits in the dental chair for four hours without a thought; his "reality", his native place is elsewhere, as it were. I said all this to him later and at supper when we all talked a bit about it. In the Rajagopal and Rosalind times, he said he was sometimes physically beaten, but he didn’t resist their violence as he hadn’t fought against the wretched schoolmaster as a child. It all left no scars, just as the Theosophical beliefs did not condition his mind.

*

On Sunday, the twentieth (1970), ‘Krishnaji planned to write, but a conversation at breakfast lasted into the morning. He sat with Pupul and me in the West Wing dining room, and got onto the subject of kundalini. He questioned Pupul on whether her observation of what happened in Madras and at Ooty in 1948 could have been kundalini. Her version, which she wrote in detail, was taken by Rajagopal, who forbid her to make a copy. She described it to Krishnaji and me. She and Nandini were staying in Vasanta Vihar. They heard Krishnaji groaning in his room and went in, fearing he was sick. He looked at her and said, “Are you Rosalind?”
She said, “No.”
He told them to stay in the room and not leave him alone. He said, “Krishna has gone away,” and then he put his hand over his mouth and said, “I mustn’t say his name. He doesn’t like me to say his name.” He was in apparent pain, sweating and faint.
This happened again the same year when he was staying with Frydman. It would start around 6 p.m. and lasted until 1 a.m. He told Pupul and Nandini to stay in the room’—this is the Ooty occurrence—‘but wouldn’t have Frydman there. He would faint and an extraordinary beauty would come into his face. Pupul described what was happening to him as seeing a total cleansing of his mind.

In reply to Krishnaji’s questioning, she said that she wouldn’t describe it as kundalini, which is a result of conscious deliberate meditation on chakra centers in the lotus pose, and the result of great effort and a release of great energy, bringing various powers, etcetera. But Krishnaji’s various related experiences were different. Leadbeater, who knew at least something about kundalini, couldn’t explain Krishnaji’s experience. In kundalini, there is a breaking of the energy in the mind, like an explosion. Krishnaji never seems to have been caught in conditioning. He was very interested, and questioned her at length. After these episodes, he has no memory of them at all. In Madras, and maybe it was at Ooty, he spoke of “the shining ones, the great ones are here.”

*

Later he told me he had dreamt he met Winston Churchill talking to a girl. Churchill said to Krishnaji, “Oh, it doesn’t matter if you marry a girl or not.” Krishnaji said to Churchill’—“If you’ll forgive my saying so, Churchill, you are naughty!”’ ‘To which Churchill replied to Krishnaji, “I love you, I love you.”’ End of dream!
‘Krishnaji said to me, “I’ve met very many distinguished people on the astral plane.”’

*.... And, for instance, his not wanting to go into hospitals is part of that. When I had the skin graft on my leg, it wasn’t serious, but he said to me, “You know that I can’t come and see you in the hospital,” and I said, “Of course I know, I wouldn’t hear of you coming to see me in the hospital!”  He knew I was in the hospital, but it wasn’t so much me in the hospital, but it’s all the terrible things that are happening to people all around. It was the hospital, not me. And when he said to Dorothy or to the school, “If you don’t settle all of this between you, I will close the door to the West Wing,” and that would be a physical cut-off. And when he would come to Brockwood, when the troubles were going on, he would pick it up the minute he got here, that it was… It also ties in with him saying that he wanted students, when they came through the gate, to "feel something".
I keep coming back in my mind—I know we talked about "the angels". Two angels who were looking after me.
And he asked me the next day, “Do remember what we talked about?” and I said, “Yes, about the two angels.” And then I said, “What did you mean by that?” And he said, “You should have asked the man then.” That has been haunting me. Who was saying that?  And when I said something, he said, “Probably.” I mean that was a bystander’s comment. It’s very strange if you start questioning these things.And there’s that strange repeated statement reported by Nitya in “the process” times of “the man who came to watch.”  Well, there were different entities during “the process”; there was' Krishna', who went away; there was the 'little child' who was left; and there were 'entities' or “somethings” who were doing operations, and then the "man who came to watch".
(...)Where were we? While driving, Krishnaji said he had a meditation,’ it says here. ‘“Be empty and aware from within.”’

*

. So we went in the morning in his, he driving. He said “a marvelous meditation” had been in the night.’
‘I asked what made it marvelous, special. Was it the intensity or content?’
‘He said, “Both.”’
‘I asked if it had content, and he said, “Of course not.”’
‘I asked, “Is it a feeling without content, without words?”’
‘“Yes,” he said; it was in his sleep, but continued when he awoke and got up in the night, and when he went back to bed.’

*

He said he awakened in the night with a sense of joy and felt the room was filled with people. Quote: “Eminent, holy beings who seem there when something happens in his brain. My head felt enormous.”

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 29 Jun 2016.

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