Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #211
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
One thing that seems very important in all this is the old physical body, the 'horse'...a bit neglected in all this mental stuff. Directing the attention on to different parts of the body acts like a kind of 'anchor'. I don't know if you have tried it. And though it seems that there is an 'I' separate from and 'becoming' aware of the sensation in the hands say, it actually is the 'hand being aware of itself',isn't it? . In the same way that that interesting suggestion of K. asked if the "thought can become aware of itself"?

Hello Dan...

I never tried what you suggest here. So I do not know its effects, sorry. I am not willing to go into that for myself, it is only my appreciation of it...

In my view the "I" is not a problem as such, it is the entire analytical program which is due to a possible bug...itself due to the absence of some missing capacities, not a guess I and many have met some, somehow, to various degrees ....for me something goes very wrong with "me" (global), pain ,sorrow, and all of it indicates that for me...to say that, it means that I have decided that life is not war, not conflict, not business, not money, not far, not pain etc...but there are such things...

then what? the limited thinking process is rapidly overwhelmed by all those problems, or it gets a bit used to them and become a mind of metal, cold , and-or it sinks in various form of escapisms which seem to never ever have worked to solve those mental problems...at least since some kind of + or- 3000 years..hard to say with all this false history spread..

So all of a sudden I see that what is called pre-history may contain so much interesting stuff in its factual reality, not in the fantasies we are told ..but this is another subject.

Theoretically any single divided person is fighting all the universe....pure nonsense it is..

the I for me is the analyser, the one who knows , the censor as k put it...a bunch of desires and fears, escapes, etc...so a program...which goes wrong..

then the explanations can go on ad libitum, the analyser is "thrilled" with it of course as it is its field of activity, I would not even now say of global competences in my view it is a failure ..it feeds on that and anything on that wavelength...

And here I pause , and say OK, this cannot go on , I refuse that, too heavy, too meaningless, too little it brings, etc..

and what if what is needed to go into all that properly is not awake yet....but this is a guess if not lived somehow...

So here it is important to make a factual difference between guesses and facts, lived facts..

I think we find k on the latest, telling his facts which can have a wide value...for all , for some...

now back to your post and k asking can thought be aware of itself ?

here it is like entering a field where words can well be treacherous ...thought can be aware of suffering, does it know that it is its suffering ? No it does not....

it sees it as something apart from itself...something that must go away....so that can go away, simply by wishing it....so childish and dangerous..

for myself I now know that dukkah suffering sorrow discontentment frustration pain anxiety etc etc are symptoms of wrongness, they indicate that...

here is ,for my own life at least, a crucial turning point...which had been ,still is , to be defeated by the painful symptom ...and to do something unusual , not expected, contradictory to thought imperialism , which is to say because this is the real feeling behind: I am too fed up with all that....I stop interfering, willing anything, I am defeated ...if this is factual then what is unpredictable, can not be search for etc will eventually take place under the form it wishes....

the explanations come after...they will take the form of insights,flashes etc etc

there is a guidance for us behind that, a learning which his there..which needs no book and is basically there for anyone....living its own self created pain is a possibility for anyone as attempting to run away from it ,that we all do is too....it does not need a particular intellect, a school, a society, violence, hierarchy ....on the contrary..the intellect being the problem....it is its malfunction which is going to awake anyone going in that direction..which I admit is so unusual...

this is not at all a discovery as such and far far from it...talk to the Buddha about that..and more....but for the person living that, it is a discovery or rather an up to date download.Then all programs can eventually function smoothly..

you mention awareness, sorry again like I say to John but this word is part of those words which leave me blank...nothing wrong with you or anyone using that word, it seems to be the way my own program seems to function ....how bad anyway..
.

to be continued up the the last day...

kenavo ar wouez all....this is Breton a Celtic language from the up-west coast of France, so Brittany where I am from...that was my grand parents only language born around years 1900...

it means "bye see you next time"...

thanks for the sharing

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 27 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #212
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your remarks. My 'approach' is pretty simplistic at this point after so many years of interest in all this. But it has come down to this 'belief' that life here as a human being 'should' be a Joy. That is, if we can avoid being eaten by something much stronger than ourselves (not happening that much nowadays), or being under a bomb or being in a prison etc.,etc. That is what the Christs, Buddhas, K.s have said: it's all about 'Love' and most of us (any of us?) can't find it. And, they say that there is a reason (s) that we can't find it, can't realize it in our lifetimes, and they have set out the reasons for that lack as best as they could...for example:

K."Is it possible for (the process of ?) 'thought' to realize its own place, which is in the "world of technique", but that it has no place "psychologically"? Just look at it: when I have an "image" about myself and you tread on that "image", that hurts. That ( lingering memory of having been hurt ?) is the element ( creating its own compensatory process ?) of time."

I believe that this is true, so I take his suggestion seriously as to whether "thought can become aware of itself". Because if thought can't be aware of itself as it pours unendingly out of the brain, how could it (or the brain) possibly come to the realization of "its own place", the realization that it is in the 'wrong place'?...so as K. has also suggested, take your 'belief' and find your own "method" to find out the truth of this. Hence the question: Can thought become aware of 'itself', not 'me', the 'analyzer' observing 'my' thoughts, but the thought itself 'alive' and 'aware' of itself? It's an 'experiment' to find out, and it's strange and it's 'hard', and it's 'difficult to do' and to 'persist' at ...because the 'conditioning' is so strong against it?.. but what else is there but to 'try'?

As K. used to say" "Do it sir!"

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 27 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #213
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As K. used to say" "Do it sir!"

Hello Dan...

Dan McDermott wrote:
.so as K. has also suggested, take your 'belief' and find your own "method" to find out the truth of this. Hence the question: Can thought become aware of 'itself', not 'me', the 'analyser' observing 'my' thoughts, but the thought itself 'alive' and 'aware' of itself? It's an 'experiment' to find out, and it's strange and it's 'hard', and it's 'difficult to do' and to 'persist' at ...because the 'conditioning' is so strong against it?.. but what else is there but to 'try'?

In what I know for myself, so this is relative to me only of course, what we call suffering, a word which already indicates that we want to get rid of that, is the only symptom-catalyst which works..if it is not used....a paradox yes which is not one in fact..

the program we call thought and that I call analytical process is far too good-bad at what it does, even wrongly of course, that to by pass it, my view is that no search will ever do that..

I do not see ( for me) any other mean to start with other than what we call suffering, this is handy as it wipes away all other subjects..and to keep with it as long as it is present...
it indicates and contain a catalyst to be left alone is what I experienced now many many times for myself...

so I do not go along with k words at all, yet each time I find something unusual it was there, but but, would be taken analytically only...as long as suffering is put aside or ignored, or tamed or faced etc etc I think that nothing real and deep beyond thought will ever happen

the analyser must fail...is what I know..

now can thought become aware of itself..when defeated by one's self created pain of any sort, the origin right now does not matter, what matters is the symptom which tries to speak to us , when defeated by thought so when the analytical process is reaching the point where it is absolutely fed up with such nonsensical and painful life..then when so weak is it only able to stop interfering..and the first time it happened to me, without searching for anything I was able to hear thoughts and yet not to listen because "something" else was able to do such thing, immediately after having been defeated and having said this words: I am too fed up, I can't fight anymore, I am defeated , I let all this be Whatever happens ....

I have to be personal personal here otherwise what I say does not make sense at all...but it was and is lived from time to time...it is not a fantasy.

so is it the analyser(thought) which is aware of itself? this I don't know for sure...but for myself it is not thought it is something else like some other awakening capacity I already met before....but that is not important in my view, what matters here is what takes place....and what take place is a liberating factor...which brings many side effects as it wishes....

recently step by step I was "informed" of some of the analytical program itself....seeing why desires are vital for this system to function etc..

in my view this deserve a real dialogue to go far enough..

well that is all folks...;-=))

cheers Dan...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 27 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 27 Apr 2016 #214
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

the analyser must fail...is what I know..

Yes, agreed but not in the technological realm, where it belongs and is indispensable. But in the psychological, it must fail because there it is not 'aware' that it is 'out of place'...and it persists in searching for 'answers' to 'problems' (such as 'suffering',etc.) that have actually been 'created' as a result of this false duality of an 'analyzer', a 'thinker' apart and separate from 'thought'. (But they are one and the same.) So the 'solution' may indeed lie in thought being absolutely silent when it is neither useful, nor beneficial, but that seems to be the one action it is incapable of. (The 'solution'(s), you know, may be just around the corner ...that never-ending corner!)

P.S. I do get from what you have said that you understand this from K:

" To understand conflict and to be able to examine it with freedom, there must be a certain disinterested tranquillity. But when we are in conflict or in sorrow our instinctive response is to escape from it, to run away from its cause, not to face its hidden significance; so we seek various channels of escape: activity, amusement, gods, war. So distractions multiply; they become more important than the cause of sorrow itself; we then become intolerant of the means of escape of others and try to modify or reform them, but conflict and sorrow continue."

Cheers again.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 27 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 22 Jun 2016 #215
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
On awakening, Krishnaji said he had dreamt of Nitya—that they were walking where there were deep cement canals that had been built. The water hadn’t been let in yet and he was afraid Nitya would fall in and he was shouting at him.

Krishnaji said that he dreamed that Rajagopal said to him, “Why didn’t you tell me you would turn out like this?” and Krishnaji told him, “Because you behaved like such a bastard.”’

Hello John,

I just noticed that k was dreaming too, as on some other thread it was said that he never dreamt..not a big deal anyway?? yet it is factual now.

John Raica wrote:
‘Me: “Am I supposed to just stand there if someone was physically attacking you?”’

‘Krishnaji: “No, that would be different.”’

Dan: this may sound a detail like , for me it is not...K would not be as passive as some, most, would think if a situation needs it...I already got that from many little sentences like this..

Dan McDermott wrote:
“I don’t know if you believe in ghosts, but I’ve been seeing Mrs. Gandhi standing there.” He indicated a spot about two feet from where I was sitting at the right end of the sofa. He said that she stood there, looking at him, for more than a minute, and then disappeared.

I do not know about that nor have I any talent in any of those fields, but my actual companion and my ex one had that non controllable talent too as well as some others I don't have like seeing the aura naturally since young or curing some skin problems and more etc, it always leaves a very very strange feeling about it mentioning the "ghost" seeing part, even years after when recalling it...especially when it is about known persons..as it was many times.

Dan McDermott wrote:
There was a long talk with Krishnaji in the morning about all the foundations. “It is watching,” he said. He speaks as if "that something" is deciding what happens to him. “It” will decide when his work is done and hence, by implication, his life.

that is the "it" you were mentioning John....all proportions kept as of course I am not a sort of k nor will I ever be, nor anyone will anyway...but this reminds me of this direct telepathic contact during the kthing....except that "it" was a she...where was she from, what was she etc ? not a single clue I have...it seems that some people have such moments...but we do not know what it is about, may be some do ?? Just telling ..

strange, very strange indeed !!

John Raica wrote:
Toward the end of the meal, Krishnaji asked the question, *“Is humanity disintegrating?” “Is there some part of the brain that refuses this disintegration? If there is, will that turn it around? Something that will break the ( vicious ?) circle? Is there some part of the brain that rejects conditioning?…I am into something.”

;-)

John Raica wrote:
When the body goes, it may be tomorrow, it may be in ten years, but it is a strange feeling. It has all been completely planned.”’

John Raica wrote:
There are things you don’t know, enormous, and I can’t tell you. It is very hard to find a brain like this, and it must keep on as long as the body can; until something says, ‘enough.

John Raica wrote:
Yesterday, Krishnaji said almost to himself, “What have I done wrong?…I’ve tried to take care of the body

John Raica wrote:
January twenty-seventh. ‘To the hospital early. Krishnaji said to me, “I want to tell you something. It is hard to find words. You must have an insight into it. I will die, and I want to leave you something. In India they are too quick to think they understand these things. I am sceptical. One must be. But Americans are immature. You must just listen without trying to understand. I feel it is something more vast than one can ever put into words.

John Raica wrote:
February fourteenth: ‘Krishnaji slept without pill or morphine but at 4 a.m. the pain returned. A new nurse, gave morphine. In the ten minutes it took to work, he had me press on his stomach. “Too good to be true. Sorrow, I thought I’d lost you.” The high voice groaned with pain and the low voice came in, “Don’t make such a fuss about it.”

No comments on my last "selection"...

Any biographies as well as early writing are deeply interesting too...it is about more than the "teaching"...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 22 Jun 2016.

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Fri, 24 Jun 2016 #216
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More lost & found 'pages from K's life ( dutyfully recorded by Mrs Zimbalist ) Who said they are 'boring' ?

Mary (Lutyens) told, jokingly, of a sentence she had censored in Krishnaji’s letters to her mother. He had written from Ojai, “I am going to Santa Barbara, where I will cook a millionaire.”’ To our amazement and hilarity, Krishnaji said, “Yes, and she only gave a hundred dollars!”’ ‘It was a Mrs. Bliss. (For a man who cannot remember so many things he suddenly remembered this!)

*

‘Narayan, Fritz Wilhelm, and David Bohm had planned to have a discussion. Krishnaji said he would sit in “as an observer.” Dorothy and I also were present. Once there, of course, Krishnaji participated.

They began to examine the way a child learns, motor-learning, action-learning, then touch, etcetera. After a bit, Krishnaji jumped it way forward to insight. He asked if our consciousness can be aware of itself. He said that if insight is not acted upon, it dies. He spoke of observation in which there is no distortion; distortion is the "me". He said there is no action before insight. If there is action, it is the action of learning. Dave said humans handle their lives through "action-learning", therefore, insight must be different. Bohm said, “You say insight comes before action, something goes beyond action—what is it? Perception? Krishnaji said there was fragmentary perception. “Insight implies holistic action, which affects my daily life, the way I live, feel, love.
Dave said that then motor-learning is a limited perception and insight is when it is whole. Krishnaji said he had yesterday picked up his biography and read about dissolving the Order of the Star . “And I said, How did he do it? He had tremendous insight—he did it.” Krishnaji went on to say that insight doesn’t come out of learning. Dave pointed out that Krishnaji emphasizes observation and learning. Isn’t it necessary?

Krishnaji said it helps free the mind. Narayan said that Krishnaji had once spoken of the art of listening, the art of looking, and the art of learning—the three arts. Do they precede insight? Krishnaji replied, “They open the door, but it doesn’t mean that there will be insight. He didn’t do these—he simply said, “This is absurd.”… “The point is how we move out of the pattern. Looking, listening, learning is in the pattern.”… “Can you have insight without compassion? But he (as a child) didn’t know the meaning of the word.”…“There is 'outward-going' and 'inward-going'. Most of us are 'outward-going', linear. That means he was entirely inward-going at that time. He was not an extrovert. There was insight. That is what I want to get at. I wish I could study him.

Can consciousness become aware of itself? Is there a mirror in which consciousness sees itself—the three arts ? David asked, “What does it learn?” Krishnaji replied, “Its content. I think it can. I say, yes it can.”…“Can consciousness listen to itself without an outsider listening in?”…“Have you ever seen a body from the outside?”’
‘“Can consciousness listen to itself? What happens? Nothing happens. There is empty space, absolutely nothing. No observer, only 'that'.”’

What is insight? There must be a certain foundation. The foundation is "non-self". Insight 'is' (occuring) in the absence of self. When consciousness is aware of itself, and there is 'no-thing', then there is insight. That nothingness is insight. Insight is emptiness and non-self.

‘“Consciousness becomes aware of itself, and there is no-thing, no content.”…“How am I to communicate this? If ( a holistic) education isn’t (helping) the flowering of human beings, it has no meaning.”’
‘“Without love, compassion, there is no fine mind. No fine mind without insight, observation.”’
‘At the end, he said, “This morning while I played (the disc with) Southerland singing Bellini there flashed a great delight I missed in my youth. I said, ‘What the hell are you looking at there? It is here.’ That was insight.”’

*
First there is freedom, then insight, revolutionary action. If they stiffen into a pattern, then follows dogma and power. Freedom is movement. When or if insight becomes knowledge, then dogma follows. Freedom from self brings insight. When there is insight, there is radical transformation, which is freedom. When fundamental change does not take place, then there is pattern, dogma, and power. It is the function of the Foundations to see this doesn’t happen.

*

Krishnaji spent the day in bed sleeping, reading. He said, “I don’t dream anymore. Somewhere in Madras or RishiValley, I forget which, I dreamt Rajagopal was chasing me and then I woke up. I said this is silly to keep thinking of that man. That is enough. And so I went into it, and I haven’t dreamt since.”

*

Krishnaji at lunch said that the Sanskrit root meaning of mantra is interesting: Man means 'reflect on non-becoming'. 'Tra' means to destroy, to finish with self-centered activity.”’

*

(1977) Near the big rock, he said, “You must see into this brain, learn how he thinks. Amma and Leadbeater said this brain had been prepared for a thousand years. It is a special brain. It will probably get better the longer I live, and I will live another ten or fifteen years. You are twenty years younger, you must outlive me. I must find someone, maybe it is you, someone to carry on who has understood something. I wish I had met you forty years ago.”’

*

Along the beach road, he said, “During the last three or four months, something has been happening during sleep. It sounds silly, but it is a sense of ecstasy, as though the brain were trying to assimilate a "depth". Dreams are usually superficial and have very little meaning. I have hardly any dreams.”’

‘I asked, “How do you perceive it?”’

‘Krishnaji replied, “When I wake up, there is a strange feeling that I haven’t had before.”’

‘Me: “Is it that the brain is touching something it hadn’t touched before?”’

‘Krishnaji: “Yes. That’s it. It is something the brain hasn’t touched before. It isn’t an 'experience'. In that sleep, there is a greater penetration into something that the brain —no, thought- can never touch.”’

‘Me: “What happens to most people is that you see something and then you try to understand what it is, but this is different? How is it different? Is it outside the realm of what the brain can investigate? Is that right?”’

‘Krishnaji: “The brain is trying to understand it, trying to find out what it is.”’

‘Me: “When you say ‘the brain,’ do you mean thought, or the brain without thought?”’

‘Krishnaji: “No, not thought.” A little later, he said, “You remember that night we were sitting quietly and there was "something" in the room? That has been happening more. It happened in India a little.” I asked him about the pain, and he said it is going on slightly all the time. I asked if the “otherness” of The Notebook and this thing he is speaking of today, is of the same, and he said, “Yes, yes”…“But I don’t remember ‘the other.’ It is gone.”’

*

February twenty-fifth (1977) , ‘Krishnaji slept badly. He said he had a nightmare. “Evil ones were trying to push me, fight me, and I was trying to make a circle around myself, but it didn’t work and I finally woke up.”…“I was trying to make a circle around the house. I knew you were in there, and I was trying to make a circle.”’

‘When I questioned him about why the 'circle' didn’t work, he said. “Well, it did because I woke up.” Then we started to talk about 'making the circle', and he said it was something he didn’t want to talk about.

‘I asked, “Was it magic?”’

‘And he said, “Yes, sort of.”’

‘I asked, “Did you learn it? Were you taught it?” He replied no, but he knows things like that.

I asked why shouldn’t it be told to other people?
And he said, “I have an 'instinct' about it. I’ve never talked about it.” Then he said, “Do you remember when we first came to this house?”’—he was referring to Pine Cottage—‘“I wanted to run from it, it was bad, it was all wrong. And then we came and stayed, and it became alright, and it got better and better. Do you remember that?”

And out of this, he told me he 'does this thing' whenever he comes to a house, Brockwood, Malibu, here, or I presume Tannegg too, or a hotel room. He does what he calls “drawing a circle around a place” and he said that that is one reason that when he is not with me, it is difficult for him to do it—when I’m traveling or away, and yet even when I go to town in the car alone, he does it to some degree to protect me. One does not protect Maria or oneself. One is with non-resistance, non-opposition, non-setting oneself— there is no self in this because there is no opposition—the intrinsic part is the non-self and non-opposition. He spoke of 'angels', not angels as 'sentimental beings'—that blah, as he put it—but the invitation to the good, the beauty.

*

He spoke of a "mine of gold"; are we going to stop at the edge of the cave? What are we going to do about the mine of gold?”…“I’m going to pursue this for the rest of my life with the Foundations. It happened we are together. My job is very clear for the next ten years. Whenever we meet, I’m going to push this thing. What is your 'dharma'? A good word, but spoilt. Dharma means 'sustain the original'—if I may use that word with tremendous hesitation. It is not understood in the West.”

K says this "(gold) mine" is a sacred treasure. I leave it to you. What will you do with it? My dharma has become very clear in these meetings, apart from the public meetings, to push and pull you into the cave. I feel this tremendously. I accept that.

*

‘Krishnaji said, “No human being has refused to go through all this (fear, etc.) and said I won’t operate in my conditioned response. If he did, something other may take place. Something other does take place when you look at the whole thing.”…“Yet, that man, K, never said that, he just did it. The demand for the essence of excellence washes everything else way. It is possible.…One must have passion for excellence.”… “Total insight is the flame that burns away all confusion.”…“Don’t you then act as a magnet when you are passionate to bring about transformation? Passion may be what is missing. If it is missing, ask for it!

*( lost & found excerpts from a 'casual' K conversation with David Bohm and Mary in 1977)

Krishnaji: There are other "forces". You may use the word 'evil'. There are people in the world who are "evil".

David Bohm: Would you say (the action of these) forces penetrate beyond the ordinary communication ?

Krishnaji: They penetrate only when "that interest" is not in charge.

Bohm: What is not clear to me is, suppose there is an evil person, making evil through his words and actions. But suppose I don’t see him. He is somewhere, far away.

Krishnaji: But there is a very well-known phenomenon (of telepathy ?) . I can think about you with affection, care, or I can hate you.

Bohm: How does that hate affect you when you are far away?

Krishnaji: Yes, that’s what I mean.

David: Then, there is ( telepathic) transmission of thought?

Krishnaji: Oh, obviously, obviously.

David: “Yes... Well, it is important to get it clear, because it contradicts what people usually accept, but you are quite clear on that? Quite sure of it?

Krishnaji: I’m quite sure. Personally, when I go to a place which I’m not familiar with, where I haven’t lived, say when I first came here (in Ojai) after ten years, I came through that door. I felt appalling, I said to her: I (wanted to ) ran out.

David: But, how is it now?

‘Krishnaji: Nothing. It’s all gone.

David: But what happened?

Krishnaji: Because the "other thing" is stronger, it cannot be touched. That’s why whenever a doctor said to me, ‘Do you want it?’”’—meaning a general anesthesia—‘“by injection, a total anesthesia…(the answer is 'no' ?) ’

‘David: Would you say, suppose you took an anesthetic could an 'evil thought' take hold of you?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, but I don’t want to go through all that. Of course.

‘Mary: Is it relevant to ask what is the difference between the "unconsciousness" of anesthesiology and sleep?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, that’s entirely different. There, it is natural. This is unnatural.

‘Mary: Because it is imposed?

‘Krishnaji: You are forced, you’re driven out.

David: Now, with sleep, would you say there is still a kind of attention (going on) ?

‘Krishnaji: Oh, yes. That Intelligence is watching.

*

In the evening, Krishnaji spoke to me about not letting him 'slip away' in the hospital. I must talk to him, remind him, be watchful after the operation. He said that the (consciousness of the ?) body for the last three days has been resisting the (prostate) operation, and that the danger is that he, Krishnaji, might suddenly say, “That is enough,” and 'slip out'. The (fine) line between life and death is always there; it has happened to him in the past; it happened here in Ojai when he was walking in the mountains; it has happened in India when he “goes off” and “wanders away,” and that could happen here. He said he must not take any sedation, but in particular I must be "watchful". I asked what I could do, and he said to talk, to talk to him. It wouldn’t happen with strangers about, but after he comes back to his room after the operation, I must talk to him. I must remind him, too, in the morning before he goes down to surgery. I must also remind him before he gives blood. I must be watchful. Last night, when we were joking about a “home loan,” which was being advertised on television, I jokingly said, “Do you wish to apply for a home loan?” and he said, yes. And I said, “For what purpose?” And, he said, “For an operation,” which threw me, because since he made the decision to have the operation, he hasn’t referred to it except very factually, and suddenly in the middle of a joking conversation, I realized it is in his mind to some degree. Sometime later, I asked if he didn’t want to have the operation. Should we cancel it? And he said, no, no. It is decided, and this morning, I asked him again if we should not have it. “No. If one neglects it and there is a 'stoppage', it would be much worse.” But, I must 'remind' him.

*

Abdullah and Ms. Habib were there. They asked Krishnaji about thought being matter, etcetera. Thought as matter dies with the body, which is matter, but Krishnaji implies thought in some form enters a 'stream of (collective) consciousness' and continues.

Abdullah asked about reincarnation, and Krishnaji said the body and mind die, but "thought" is like an energy put out by the mind, and it is matter and continues as evil exists, as good exists, the good put out by man, etc

*

( summer 1977) After she (the hospital nurse) left, he took my hand, then had me sit near, but not too near the bed. “This is the danger point. I feel like going off, not fainting, you understand.” I talked quietly to him as he had instructed me, but now he stopped me, “No, no. You mustn’t say anything. You mustn’t interfere. You mustn’t think about anything.” He had me move the chair to the foot of the bed opposite him. His face became inward-turned, slightly hallucinated look. This was interrupted by Lailee coming in to see him.Dr Hausman had left orders for Demarol if needed, and Lailee told the nurse, Ms. Mitchell, to give him a tiny dose, what one would give a child. It was given, and he began to feel a dizziness from it. “Is this normal?” he asked several times. It cut the pain, but soon made him sick to his stomach, and he vomited several times.

Hallucinatory look increased. He kept telling the nurse to go and have her supper, which she had had earlier. It was by now a little before 9 p.m. When she was out of the room, he told me, “I felt the body floating and there was a dialogue between death and the body and ‘the Other,’ and death was winning.” He became aware that the nurse had returned to the darkened room, and this seemed to bring him out of the state he had been in.

We were able to talk about this in spite of her comings and goings. And he said there was nothing I could do, not to interfere. I pointed out that the nurse’s presence had brought him round. But he said, “It will come again tonight until it is settled.” Soon, he lapsed again into the “off” state and said that since five this morning, so many people have touched the body, and he began to count them, and said, “About ten have touched me.” There was a sense of irritation in all that had been done to him and soon he began to look about as though seeing things, making random gestures, raising his right arm.

Then, “Where am I?” Pause. “I have been wounded,” looking about. Then, “Where’s my brother Nitya?” The voice was light, higher, almost that of a boy. Then “I want to join you, Nitya.” And then, “I’m going away.”

I said, “No Krishna. You are going to be well and strong.” After a few seconds, he made a deep-sounding cough, his normal cough, and his voice dropped to its normal level, and he said, “That’s better.” And then, “I’m not going. I’ll join you later, Nitya, much later, another ten years.” Later, he said, “One mustn’t be burdened with the past.” And later, he said, “You and I mustn’t be in an automobile accident, so drive carefully.” And later, “I’m not a philosopher.”’

‘Finally, after about an hour, he seemed to come out of it and spoke directly to me. “I’m all right now.”

May tenth. ‘Krishnaji was reading when I came in at 6 a.m. He is much better. No pain. Lailee came in early and so did Hausman. Krishnaji didn’t want solid breakfast, but I made a little muesli and some of his usual food, and he ate it saying “L’appétit vient en mangeant.”

After Hausman’s visit, Krishnaji dictated to me a dialogue with death which is, at least partly, already in Mary Lutyens’s book.

“It was a minor operation and not worth talking about, though there was considerable pain. While the pain continued, I saw or discovered that the body was almost floating in the air. It may have been an illusion, some kind of hallucination, but a few minutes later, there was the personification of death. Watching this peculiar phenomenon between the body and death, there seemed to be a sort of dialogue between them. Death seemed to be talking to the body with great insistence, and the body reluctantly, not admitting what death wanted. Though there were people in the room, this phenomenon went on, death inviting, the body refusing. It was not a fear of death why the body was denying the demands of death, but it realized it was not responsible for itself, there was another "entity" that was dominating, much stronger, more vital than death itself.

Death was more and more demanding and insisting and so ‘the Other’(spiritual entity ?) interfered. Then there was a conversation or a dialogue between not only the body, but ‘the Other’ and death. So, there were three entities in conversation. He had warned before he went to the hospital that there might be a 'dis-association' with the body and so death might interfere. Though the (MZ) person was sitting there, and a nurse, it was not a self-deception or kind of hallucination. Lying in the bed he saw the clouds full of rain and the town below stretching for miles. There was spattering of rain on the window pane and he saw clearly the saline solution dripping drop by drop into the organism. One felt very distinctly and clearly that if ‘the Other’ had not interfered, death would have won.

This 'dialogue' was expressed in words with thought operating very clearly. There was thunder and lightning and the conversation went on. Since there was no fear at all, neither on the part of the body or ‘the Other’—absolutely no fear—one could converse freely and profoundly. It is always difficult to put a 'conversation' of that kind into words. Strangely, as there was no fear, death was not enchaining the mind to things of the past. What came out of the conversation was very clear. The body in considerable pain and was not apprehensive or anxious and ‘the Other’ was discernibly beyond both. It was as though ‘the Other’ were acting as an 'umpire', a dangerous game of which the body was not at all aware. Even if it was, there would be no withdrawal from the scene.

Death seemed to be always present, like one’s shadow. Being concerned with the whole movement of life, death cannot be 'invited'. But, death and the living, in this peculiar phenomenon that was going on, the three, would never be separate. During this 'conversation' there was no sense of time. Probably the whole dialogue lasted about an hour and the time by the watch did not exist. There were no words used but an immediate insight into what each was saying. (Of course, if one is attached to anything—ideas, beliefs, property or person, death would not come to have a conversation with you) 'Death' in the sense of ending is absolute freedom.

The quality of conversation was 'urbane'. There was nothing whatsoever of sentimental, emotional extravagance to distort the absolute fact of time coming to an end and the vastness without any border when death is taking part in your daily life. There was the feeling that the body would go on for many years but death and ‘the Other’ would always be together till the organism could no longer be active. There was a great 'sense of humor' among the three of them and one could almost hear the laughter. And the beauty of it was with the clouds and the rain.”’

PS: When in the evening, he did have me reread the whole piece, I pointed that he’d been speaking of death, “the Other,” and the body, and now he referred to death, K, and the body—so he changed that sentence, putting “the Other” in place of “K.” “You know what I mean by ‘the Other,’” he said. “The "mind" that is inhabited by K.”’

This post was last updated by John Raica Fri, 24 Jun 2016.

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Fri, 24 Jun 2016 #217
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Hi John and All,

I have a question and perhaps someone or all would like to help me understand what is going on? I believe that K.'s many suggestions regarding whether thought/the brain-mind, can become "aware" of itself is very important, perhaps even key. What I find in trying this is that yes it is possible for short periods of time for this to seemingly be the case; it, the thought can 'awaken' to itself and it can be seen that the 'self', 'me', the 'thinker' apart is not really the case at all; they are one and the same 'process'. But as I said this is rather short lived and usually occurs when 'sitting quietly'. Now a separate phenomena occurs when say after listening to or playing a song, that song or melody will keep repeating itself over and over in the brain (I guess this is quite an ordinary experience.) My question is while it is quite 'easy' for me to be aware of the melody (which is aware of itself?), in fact, there is difficulty ending it, the same is not true as regards 'my' thoughts. Is K. pointing at that possibility of the normal thinking process becoming as 'visible', 'audible' as the repetitive process of the song? Or are they on two different 'levels', frequencies, the thinking (with the 'I' process'), being much 'deeper' with a different 'priority' and much more difficult for it to 'awaken' and become 'aware of itself'?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 24 Jun 2016.

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Sat, 25 Jun 2016 #218
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for the response John,

Reading this quote from a talk in Ojai in '52, it seemed a particularly 'grim' assessment of our situation: the brain caught in a process of constantly seeking new 'experience'(sensations) from a "dead center" without a seeming ending. Much like an addiction, but not to any object, but to the process itself...Is this the description of the (overworked) 'analyzer' that Dan often mentions?:

Ojai, California | 8th Public Talk, 24th August, 1952

"My mind is always experiencing in terms of sensation, it is the instrument of sensation. Being bored with a particular sensation, I seek a new sensation, which may be what I call the realization of God; but it is still sensation. I have had enough of this world and its travail, and I want peace, the peace that is everlasting; so I meditate, control, I shape my mind in order to experience that peace. The experiencing of that peace is still sensation. So my mind is the mechanical instrument of sensation, of memory, a dead centre from which I act, think. The objects I pursue are the projections of the mind as symbols from which it derives sensations. The word "God", the word "love", the word" communism", the word "democracy", the word "nationalism" - these are all symbols which give sensations to the mind, and therefore the mind clings to them. As you and I know, every sensation comes to an end, and so we proceed from one sensation to another; and every sensation strengthens the habit of seeking further sensation. So, the mind becomes merely an instrument of sensation and memory, and in that process we are caught. As long as the mind is seeking further experience, it can only think in terms of sensation; and any experience that may be spontaneous, creative, vital, strikingly new, it immediately reduces to sensation, and pursues that sensation, which then becomes a memory. Therefore the experience is dead and the mind becomes merely a stagnant pool of the past."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 25 Jun 2016.

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Sun, 26 Jun 2016 #219
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Continuing the 'lost and found ' pages about K from MZ's memos

(1970) He asked me if I felt any presence of Sam (her husband) after he died. I said yes. We discussed what is evidence and what is imagination. I said I felt it strongly but neither saw objectively nor heard anything. It was a strong sense of presence and communication, real to me, but I cannot offer it as objective evidence to another.

Krishnaji said to me, “You can tell the difference between imagination and a 'something'.” I asked how one can assess such things. "I don’t assert anything because I cannot see how it can be proven. But I pay attention and do not deny any part of it".

Krishnaji then spoke of change and listening, i.e., ‘“if you really listen and see, that erases the habit, the previous imprint. The "new" then functions in the mind and whenever an action of the old pattern arises the mind alerts the consciousness, the conscious attention.” He spoke of my bad habit of frowning, and the need for “a quiet face”’—he always used to say to me, “Have a quiet face”—‘remains because I haven’t seen the importance of changing them. If I had, the old pattern would be erased, he said. He said, “The body sometimes takes time to relearn, but the mind can be instantly alert, therefore, to listen, to see, to change, to wipe out the old pattern. Lack of change is inattention,” he said.

*

Toward the end of lunch, Krishnaji began to ask Dick Clarke about what Krishnaji was like when they found him. Clarke seemed to remember it all clearly. Krishnaji kept at him with questions, holding Clarke’s left hand and ticking off the questions on his fingers. Krishnaji seemed to feel that what “the boy” was like and whatever went on in his mind—as he kept asking—eluded him.’ In other words, he seemed to feel that it eluded him. But for me, the picture was a true line throughout; the dreamy child who when punished by the school master would stand on the veranda until told to leave, who often had to be fetched home by his little brother, was a gentle, compliant boy who replied to his TS elders, “Whatever you say” when asked about doing something. He was polite and accepting, but not really touched by their world; it went in one ear and out the other. He learned outward things: manners, speech, witnessed the TS goings-on, but it left little mark; he was "elsewhere". He remembers vaguely standing by the Adyar River for hours, staring at it, vacant. *This vacancy was some 'otherness' that protected him, let whatever he is grow, mature very slowly. It protected him from most of the pulls of life later on, from the brutalities of Rajagopal and Rosalind. It is there today when he is “off,” when he sits in the dental chair for four hours without a thought; his "reality", his native place is elsewhere, as it were. I said all this to him later and at supper when we all talked a bit about it. In the Rajagopal and Rosalind times, he said he was sometimes physically beaten, but he didn’t resist their violence as he hadn’t fought against the wretched schoolmaster as a child. It all left no scars, just as the Theosophical beliefs did not condition his mind.

*

On Sunday, the twentieth (1970), ‘Krishnaji planned to write, but a conversation at breakfast lasted into the morning. He sat with Pupul and me in the West Wing dining room, and got onto the subject of kundalini. He questioned Pupul on whether her observation of what happened in Madras and at Ooty in 1948 could have been kundalini. Her version, which she wrote in detail, was taken by Rajagopal, who forbid her to make a copy. She described it to Krishnaji and me. She and Nandini were staying in Vasanta Vihar. They heard Krishnaji groaning in his room and went in, fearing he was sick. He looked at her and said, “Are you Rosalind?”
She said, “No.”
He told them to stay in the room and not leave him alone. He said, “Krishna has gone away,” and then he put his hand over his mouth and said, “I mustn’t say his name. He doesn’t like me to say his name.” He was in apparent pain, sweating and faint.
This happened again the same year when he was staying with Frydman. It would start around 6 p.m. and lasted until 1 a.m. He told Pupul and Nandini to stay in the room’—this is the Ooty occurrence—‘but wouldn’t have Frydman there. He would faint and an extraordinary beauty would come into his face. Pupul described what was happening to him as seeing a total cleansing of his mind.

In reply to Krishnaji’s questioning, she said that she wouldn’t describe it as kundalini, which is a result of conscious deliberate meditation on chakra centers in the lotus pose, and the result of great effort and a release of great energy, bringing various powers, etcetera. But Krishnaji’s various related experiences were different. Leadbeater, who knew at least something about kundalini, couldn’t explain Krishnaji’s experience. In kundalini, there is a breaking of the energy in the mind, like an explosion. Krishnaji never seems to have been caught in conditioning. He was very interested, and questioned her at length. After these episodes, he has no memory of them at all. In Madras, and maybe it was at Ooty, he spoke of “the shining ones, the great ones are here.”

*

Later he told me he had dreamt he met Winston Churchill talking to a girl. Churchill said to Krishnaji, “Oh, it doesn’t matter if you marry a girl or not.” Krishnaji said to Churchill’—“If you’ll forgive my saying so, Churchill, you are naughty!”’ ‘To which Churchill replied to Krishnaji, “I love you, I love you.”’ End of dream!
‘Krishnaji said to me, “I’ve met very many distinguished people on the astral plane.”’

*.... And, for instance, his not wanting to go into hospitals is part of that. When I had the skin graft on my leg, it wasn’t serious, but he said to me, “You know that I can’t come and see you in the hospital,” and I said, “Of course I know, I wouldn’t hear of you coming to see me in the hospital!”  He knew I was in the hospital, but it wasn’t so much me in the hospital, but it’s all the terrible things that are happening to people all around. It was the hospital, not me. And when he said to Dorothy or to the school, “If you don’t settle all of this between you, I will close the door to the West Wing,” and that would be a physical cut-off. And when he would come to Brockwood, when the troubles were going on, he would pick it up the minute he got here, that it was… It also ties in with him saying that he wanted students, when they came through the gate, to "feel something".
I keep coming back in my mind—I know we talked about "the angels". Two angels who were looking after me.
And he asked me the next day, “Do remember what we talked about?” and I said, “Yes, about the two angels.” And then I said, “What did you mean by that?” And he said, “You should have asked the man then.” That has been haunting me. Who was saying that?  And when I said something, he said, “Probably.” I mean that was a bystander’s comment. It’s very strange if you start questioning these things.And there’s that strange repeated statement reported by Nitya in “the process” times of “the man who came to watch.”  Well, there were different entities during “the process”; there was' Krishna', who went away; there was the 'little child' who was left; and there were 'entities' or “somethings” who were doing operations, and then the "man who came to watch".
(...)Where were we? While driving, Krishnaji said he had a meditation,’ it says here. ‘“Be empty and aware from within.”’

*

. So we went in the morning in his, he driving. He said “a marvelous meditation” had been in the night.’
‘I asked what made it marvelous, special. Was it the intensity or content?’
‘He said, “Both.”’
‘I asked if it had content, and he said, “Of course not.”’
‘I asked, “Is it a feeling without content, without words?”’
‘“Yes,” he said; it was in his sleep, but continued when he awoke and got up in the night, and when he went back to bed.’

*

He said he awakened in the night with a sense of joy and felt the room was filled with people. Quote: “Eminent, holy beings who seem there when something happens in his brain. My head felt enormous.”

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 29 Jun 2016.

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Wed, 29 Jun 2016 #220
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More 'lost & find' stuff From K's life

1972

What happened was that years before, Biascoechea was donating some money to KWINC, and he wanted to know more about the finances of KWINC.
Rajagopal refused to give that information, and said that if there were any difficulty about it, he would reveal that Krishnaji had a relationship with Rosalind. And this so shocked Biascoechea, not the relationship, but the fact that Rajagopal would blackmail him. And poor Biascoechea was concealing this for the rest of his life, including through the deposition. So, this wretched Terry Christensen lawyer got him to lie, that Rajagopal had never done anything wrong about money.

*

At lunch, after reading Candles in the Sun, he spoke of “protecting the body”, how it is necessary. Crossing the beach road together, Krishnaji paused and a car came along fast with the sun in its eyes. I called to Krishnaji, who was just out of my reach, and he said, “I see it, I see it,” but he didn’t move. He has an odd tendency never to act quickly when there is danger from traffic. He says he sees it as though that was enough.’
I remember the first time crossing Piccadilly road with him: he was about to step into traffic and I, without thinking, grabbed him. And he said very casually, “You just saved my life.” And I was horrified, and he said,
“Well, it wouldn’t happen if I were alone. Then I pay attention.”**

*

On the ninth of June we went to London, and we lost my briefcase in the cab. What happened was Krishnaji was always concerned by what I carried. And when I carried both a handbag and, in this case, a briefcase, he wanted to carry the non-handbag. I always resisted, but I gave in on this occasion. He left it in the backseat of the cab.
 We didn’t know it until we got to Huntsman. He was very disturbed by that. ‘So, The taxi driver had taken it to the police, who could see from papers inside that it had to do with Michael, so they called his office, and Michael’s clerk collected it.

*

Then, Krishnaji guided us to Montesano, a hotel where he and his brother stayed in the early ’20s, when Nitya had TB. Then, in 1957 also, Rajagopal left him there alone for about two months, giving him just enough money to pay his board plus 50 francs so he could do nothing else. We lunched there in the dining room where Krishnaji used to have a table alone in the corner by the window. It is a family hotel with long tables, children and parents on holiday. Krishnaji told us of Rajagopal having written to Vanda who was, at the time, in Gstaad not to communicate with Krishnaji.’ He left him there alone.
‘When Rajagopal left, after several days there, on one of which he was drunk in the dining room and called Krishnaji names in a loud voice, he told Krishnaji,’ ‘“You say you are never lonely, well, now you’re going to find out what it’s like, what the rest of us feel.”’

‘“But I was never lonely,” said Krishnaji.’ ‘“I could have just stayed there.” He went for walks all day in the hills, never spoke to anyone, even when the hotel manager wanted to introduce him to some guests. He left when it was time to go somewhere he was due. He went by train, changing twice, to Chamonix, where de Vidas met him.
But why did I put up with him?” he asked. “I just accepted it. I suppose because there was no one else to turn to.”’

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 29 Jun 2016.

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Sat, 02 Jul 2016 #221
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

March sixteenth (1977) ‘Krishnaji’s seventh meeting with the trustees

I asked about the “open window” through which the wind may come.’
Krishnaji said that “laying the foundation (understanding, fears, etc., etc.,) demands the 'other'. Laying the foundation brings about a movement—the volume of the water brings the movement. Movement brings energy

In 'laying the foundation' do not taking too long: compress it, then there is momentum, energy, movement. Then, discussion would take place at a different level, verbally or nonverbally.

Later, he said, “Can we act now as if K were no longer here? What would you do? and “if you have imbibed the teachings, you are the teacher.” Then, “You’ve got a deep well, don’t go to it with a little bucket. For god’s sake, use K, learn. You’ve got a short time. It is the responsibility of the Foundation to 'suck that dry'.’

As he continued, it was clear that one 'goes to the well' with no bucket. Consciousness, empty of knowledge, is no bucket.’

March eighteenth, ‘Krishnaji’s meeting with the trustees number eight. It began with David Bohm suggesting we start where the K-Bohm-Shainberg videos ended, the subject of something “sacred.” There was considerable exploring of guilt and responsibility. Krishnaji rather denigrated 'responsibility' in favor of a much larger, encompassing compassion. “Compassion can never be wrong. Compassion can never be inadequate in any circumstance. If action comes first it leads to guilt. Let compassion act.’

“If you are the world, which I feel most profoundly, compassion arises.…Sacred is the sense of wholeness. To live at the point of wholeness is a tremendous thing.…“The teaching is concerned with all of life, and out of that, comes compassion.”…“K feels you should enter into this sense of compassion, and so he is working at it. You are asking what do we do about this and that, the school, and the administration, etcetera. And K says, ‘Stop all that, and come into this, and you will answer rightly.’…“I won’t feel guilty if you don’t do it. I want you to do it, but it would be a horror if I felt guilty or disappointed. So it is my job to see that you come in . Isn’t it your job to see that others come in? But, first, come here.”…“Do we feel guilty because we can’t do it? Churches have said that you must renounce, and there began the ‘Separation-guilt.

“Are you listening consciously or unconsciously? ( Listening) 'consciously' is reaction. Deep listening is without ( self-conscious ?) response. That may be the answer. At that deep level, there is no 'you' and 'me'. At this ( superficial level ) there is.”’

“Something extraordinary is in this. You are listening to K on the surface, and you are making an effort to go down there and listen. That doesn’t work that way. Can you listen without the waves? Listening with background and knowledge is one thing; ( such ) listening is ( part of the self-centred ?) movement. Can you listen without ( mental ?) movement? That may convey what K wants to say more profoundly than the listening with waves. If you listen at a deeper level without words, as Foundation members, something entirely different takes place, about the schools, the centers, etcetera, then you are the teachers because you have moved from the periphery to the very center of it.… If you really listen in silence, you are there because there is no me, you are the world.”

Krishnaji’s trustee meeting number ten. There was a discussion of what relationship is between Krishnaji’s teachings, Krishnaji’s words, and truth. Is there such a thing as 'K teachings', or only truth? Is he talking out of the silence of truth, or out of an illusion of truth, the “noise of illusion. How to find out? Who is to judge? Is it out of silence of truth, or out of reactions and conditioning? How to approach this question? As I don’t know, I listen —this is what we should do, but put aside the personality, influence. Can I listen to what he says with an abandonment of the past? Then, there is a different relation to him. If I’m listening out of silence I see all the dangers of thought, etc

This post was last updated by John Raica Sat, 02 Jul 2016.

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Tue, 05 Jul 2016 #222
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More strange 'lost & found' pages from K's daily life (as recorded by Mary Z)

May thirteenth. (1978) The Marogers are here with their youngest daughter, Diane, a dear little girl, very bright, eager, friendly, and who has a congenital bone illness. Her parents hope that Krishnaji will cure her. In the evening, Vanda and I talked. She has brought with her her record of the times in 1961 in Gstaad, and 1962, when Krishnaji fainted, and another 'entity' seemed to speak to her through him. She came across her notebook when moving out of her Rome flat at Via Barnaba Oriani. She feels as though it is private, and she has kept it to herself, but that she has not the right to do this indefinitely.

Vanda began to tell Mary Lutyens about the events that began in July ’61 at Tannegg, the period at the start of Krishnamurti’s Notebook, when Krishnaji was staying with her. Krishnaji, in his room, suddenly fainted, and then as Vanda described it, his eyes became enormous and another being spoke to her through Krishnaji’s body. An extraordinary change came over the face. It happened on July 18, 1961. The voice said, “Don’t leave me until he comes back.” And then, “He must love you if he lets you touch me, as he is very particular in this.” And “Don’t let anyone come near me until he comes back.” On the following day, it happened again. Krishnaji fainted. After trembling, the eyes became larger and deeper, and the voice said, “I feel very strange. Where am I? Don’t leave me. Will you kindly stay with me until he returns? Are you comfortable? Take a chair. Do you know him well? Will you look after him?” It was this last question that Vanda said “Is why I am here.” She feels she gave her word on this; she said that for a whole month Krishnaji’s face continued to change. There was not a return of the other being but a “different look” would come over his face. He fainted once in the woods on a walk across the Turbach stream.

‘She describes these looks, and the feeling around Krishnaji at that time, in language that seems to copy Krishnaji’s own in Krishnamurti’s Notebook, which she was reading as he wrote it. It described a time, a year later, the twenty-first of May, 1962, in Rome when Krishnaji was ill with fever, and became delirious. “It has been told to you to look after him. He should not have gone out. You should’ve told him.” And, “Do you know him? You cannot know him. How can you know the running water?”…“We repeat and never question. Tell him, take a pencil, tell him ‘Death is always there very close to you, to protect you.’…‘When you take shelter, you will die.’ (Mary and I guessed there were four entities in all this. The one who 'goes away' (presumably Krishnaji); the one who tells what should be done; the one with the great eyes; and probably the childlike one who also spoke to me in Gstaad when Krishnaji was delirious).

*

The first of June. Krishnaji and I went to London. In the train he spoke again about the four hours on Tuesday in the dentist chair during the entire of which his mind was empty. And he didn’t…or, at least, I’m saying he didn’t, I don’t know what he did, but I don’t think he was trying to make it empty. I think it just was. He said it hadn’t struck him until afterward that his mind had been empty. He said that only when Mr. Thompson asked if he was alright, if it hurt, he would reply.

Otherwise, his mind was empty. Then, he said, “All this way in the taxi, coming from the station, there has been nothing in my head. It’s getting more and more this way.” Then, he said that when he put his hands on people to heal, sometimes it is as though there were a flame, a little flame in the middle of his hand, and that when he started treating Diane Maroger, there was none, for a number of times, and then slowly, it began to happen. And then, he felt, he was able to help her. He said that, for instance, when he put his hand on Sacha de Manziarly when he was in the hospital and dying’—this was in Paris—‘there was no flame, and from that he could tell that he could do nothing.

*
At lunch, I asked him about his own response to seeing suffering in India, or a poor bent man that we saw shuffling along the Strand. Was what he felt “a reaction”? "I mustn’t, because he then feels it in me, and he doesn’t want the burden on me. He spoke about going back to India in 1922, and the sights of misery were so appalling, that he could only walk at night.’

*
A man named Geoffrey Nicoletti in Philadelphia has been writing urgent letters to Krishnaji, to me, to David Bohm, and one came here for Alain Naudé, which I forwarded. He is hung up on resolving Krishnaji’s teachings and life, to the implications of the life of Padre Pio, whom he greatly reveres. He speaks of the physical signs: the stigmata, healings, being in two places, etcetera, which he regards as evidence of something, all involved with faith, a belief in Jesus, etcetera; but then there’s Krishnaji’s denial of faith, etcetera. I read the latest letter to Krishnaji, and he suggested that he and I have a taped conversation in which I put forth the questions in Nicoletti’s letters, and see what happens. We did this today, taping it on the Uher.

Krishnaji said that the phenomena of so-called “sainthood” are familiar in various religions, and they can come about without the person having truly perceived truth. He spoke of waters in the harbor and the waters of the sea. They are the same waters, but those in the harbor are 'contained' (i.e., still within a framework); whereas those of the sea are boundless. He questions any perception that doesn’t discard all religious dogma. It is partial, and therefore not the ultimate.

Nicoletti had mentioned kundalini, assuming Krishnaji to have had it, and that Padre Pio’s experience could be so described. Krishnaji objected to the term, and said he questions most descriptions of kundalini as not being the real thing. Nicoletti also asked if Padre Pio would consider Krishnaji as a profound thinker, but incomplete in not having perceived the meaning of Jesus; and if Krishnaji would consider Padre Pio as one who had helped people through healing, etcetera, but who had fundamentally done them harm through using faith, belief, etcetera. Krishnaji said this was a question he didn’t want to answer: to assess someone, “to say he is or is not.” And he questioned comparing Krishnaji and Padre Pio.

*

 June eighth. Krishnaji and I went to London. Then, during lunch at Fortnum’s, Krishnaji said, “There’s something in the head that is absolutely still, and that "center of energy" looks and sees. And when that is happening, the rest of the body is quiet, as though it were nonexistent.

M: When that 'silence' (silent energy ?) looks, does it record?

K: No, and that is the point of it.

M: If I were to ask you what you see, do you know what you see?

K: Yes; (but) the 'center of energy' doesn’t record. The tape records, the memory records, but not the "center of energy". (He said that the other day he thought of Rajagopal, and it kept coming back into his mind, and he said to himself “Why is this happening? No recording!” And from then on, he has not thought of it.)

M: I asked him if there is an 'action' in this, and he said, “Yes. There is an action but I don’t know what it is. In the center of the head there is a sense of great space, stillness, and energy. I discovered when I was putting my hands on little Diane—usually when I do that, I just put my hands on the person and look at the sky or the trees. But I discovered when I was doing it with her, that energy was not doing it, but that energy was there and is still continuing.

M: Is this is something new, something different?

K: Entirely. I am just watching it go on. It is an extraordinary kind of stillness, quietness, I haven’t had before. I mustn’t talk too much about it. ( as he said this, he gestured with his hand across his forehead) I shouldn’t talk about it. I talk about it to you, but it is something totally new. I haven’t had it before.

This post was last updated by John Raica Tue, 05 Jul 2016.

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Wed, 06 Jul 2016 #223
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More 'lost an found' pages from K's life (1974) as recorded by Mary Z‘
*

A few days ago he said he had had a good meditation in the night. I asked him about the distinction he appears to make in the book between meditation and “that otherness,” that immensity. Krishnaji asked, “What does it say?” I said that it seemed to me as if there were something in him, a state of perception of which he was capable, whereas “the otherness” appeared to come to him and enter into his consciousness. He replied, “That sounds right, but they are not entirely separate.”

‘This evening when I said how good his talk was this morning, he said,  “I knew something was going on in the brain the last few days.” When I spoke of the ( Notebook) manuscript he wrote, he said, “It’s not my book. I didn’t write it.”’

*

On the twenty-fifth of June, on the train going up to London, Krishnaji asked me to tell him again what Erna’s letter had said. One obvious advantage is the land is suitable and the cost is nil. Krishnaji dictated a cable to be signed by us both and sent to Erna. “Please gladly proceed with what you propose in matter of land.” Krishnaji then said, “It is strange. Four days ago when I was going down to lunch, the thought came. I said, ‘Nitya, do something about Arya Vihara. They are such silly people. See that something happens about this.”’

*

June twenty-sixth: ‘A while back, in a conversation with Krishnaji about interviews, he said, “When they are open, they want you to read their letter. Other times, they have a mask on, and I am deceived. And if people don’t want to be looked into, he said, “It is not my business.” ‘And he said, “You come to see me, and you are serious. You ask me to look. I never offer my opinion. Then it is simple and clear. I can go ahead. Others say, ‘Look, but not too deeply.’ I go as deeply as they want me to. If they want me to go a mile, I go a mile. Naudé never did. I wish he had. That is what makes me uncomfortable. “If you are able to perceive me, you must be in a meditative mind.”

It is pleasant and I feel a sense of having brought Krishnaji safely to a shelter in the sense of a necessary shell around him, clean, quiet, adequate food, and something he is used to. The luxury is what one must take to have all those other essentials. “Without you, I wouldn’t be here,” he said. Then he said, “Thank you for looking after me.” It is warm in Paris, and nice to be here. We went for a little walk to a pharmacy for toothpaste and came back to supper in the rooms. Krishnaji had stopped twice at windows of a patisserie. “It makes me hungry,” he said. So we had tarte aux pommes for supper.

*

This morning he said, “There is something even in this room, a marvelous meditation, that thing is going on. It started here last night. It was good to get away from Brockwood. The atmosphere was too infantile.

*

Krishnaji remained in bed till 4 p.m. when the Sufi leader Pir Vilayat Khan, who has asked to see him, was due. He didn’t turn up till 5. “Typical of these people.”’ ‘He came with a young woman who remained outside, and Krishnaji and he talked alone for one-and-a-half hours. Tea was then given. The Sufi left. Long black robe, gray beard, speaks excellent French, lectures in it, and German. He told Vanda and me that he was for subduing the self, control, etcetera. Krishnaji said, “How rigid these fellows are.”’

*

The next day, ‘I woke up and worried about Krishnaji’s weakness yesterday. Until almost 8 a.m. his door was closed. He then appeared almost shaking with energy. “Fine, fine,” he said. He said he had been thinking of a center in Ojai and everywhere else.
He had me write it down. “Must produce people so intelligent they will be basically religious, and with that intelligence will function in every field, politics, art, business, and every form of social relationship.” Krishnaji, blazing with energy, told me to write about the essentials of the center: keep the school in a corner, separate from the center. But he wants also a school for older children. The center is to have a meeting room to hold 200 people, kitchen and dining room for 100, and housing for thirty to forty people there on invitation to discuss, etcetera. We would start building immediately. I pointed out we had no funds yet to even pay Mark Lee’s salary. “You’re always talking about money,” he said impatiently.’

*

In the woods, Krishnaji said suddenly, “I woke up early and something extraordinary happened. It was as though this”’ [wide gesture] “‘were enormous, spreading out to take the universe.” I asked, “This being consciousness?” Krishnaji replied, “More than consciousness. It went on for more than an hour.” I asked, “Did it fade then?” Krishnaji answered, “No, you know how this is. It is there somewhere.” We walked to the river only. He asked me to walk ahead and leave him alone to walk more slowly. He said, “I must work.” In the wood, by the small stream, he called ahead to me, saying he would sit there awhile. I sat on the bench there for about twenty minutes, and he then passed me and went on to Tannegg. When I returned, he was coming out with rubber gloves to clean the Mercedes engine.’ Full of energy! I had been wondering and when I mentioned it to Vanda whether there is something in the fact that just about every summer before his talks here, he has a low period, a sick week, and then zooms up for the talks, as if some unknown something puts the body into low gear in order that some other force gathers in him.


On July thirteenth, ‘Edgar Graf came to see Krishnaji for a personal interview, and Mr. Mirabet came to greet Krishnaji and make his annual donation. Graf came back to lunch with Vanda and me. I got car washing equipment and started washing the Mercedes while Krishnaji was on the walk with Peter Racz. Vanda brought a young American boy, a sculptor home, and after Krishnaji was finished washing the car, he went with him for a short walk. Frances and Tapas came for a short visit.’

*

We wore them on a walk to the river. On the way, I speculated what would happen if people really said no fighting, no wars. The aggressor nations would take over. Krishnaji said you couldn’t let them do that. You would speak up, get people to 'not cooperate'. Do no work. Russians or anyone else couldn’t control the world if everyone refused to work. “You’d have to talk, organize it ahead of time. At the last minute, it’s too late.” I said, “Isn’t it already too late?” and he said, “Maybe. Now I must get woolly. I have to talk tomorrow.”’ ‘I said no more, but walked ahead so he could be alone. In the woods, he called to me,  “Maria, remind me of these words: idea(ls ?) creates conflicting energy.

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Fri, 08 Jul 2016 #224
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More 'lost & found' pages from K's life :

January tenth (1976).

At breakfast Krishnaji said, I once saw ‘a face.’ I’ve been feeling ‘that face’ all night. Something happens to me here.

MZ: Something curious happened to me last night when you were talking to me. Did you know that?

K: Yes. I will tell you sometime, not now(...)

In the car coming home, I asked about “the face.” He has seen it often, “out there like that bush there.” A face only, not a body.

MZ: Does it move or speak?

K: No. I have been seeing it since that night (Friday). Not outside, but inside. It usually means it is moving into this body.

MZ: Could presage his “going off,” and, if so, should he stay alone in the cottage while I am in the hospital?

K: That will not happen when I am alone. The body must be looked after.

 And he once said to me, “Did you see ‘the face?’  He’d seen “the face,” and it seemed to move into him, but he didn’t say, as I’m looking at you, of course, with several feet of space. He hadn’t seen it that way. So he seems to be saying two different thingS: He has seen it outside and inside.

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Sun, 10 Jul 2016 #225
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More lost & found random pages from K's life

( 1972) Krishnaji and I walked in Villa Glori. He said, “Pay attention to your "unconscious" (mind ?) . It may want to tell you something now. Do not take too long to change. You are quiet inside now. Do not take so long to change. It will tell you something and you must be alert and quick to respond, otherwise it is harmful". He has touched "something" that is now different, an interior movement.

*

On the seventh of October Krishnaji has a dialogue with David Bohm. Saral, Dorothy, Doris, and I were present. They discussed what intelligence is, it is not thought, which is in time, etcetera. At one point, far into the discussion, Krishnaji put the question: “What is its source?” David was silent, and Krishnaji later asked me if I had noticed the "change of atmosphere" in the room when he asked that question. Then, at the end, he suddenly began to speak of another way to communicate something, to speak not to the "conscious" mind, but to the "unconscious". “That is affection,” he said, “that is love.” To me, later, he said, I’m going to speak to you that way about your habits of tension.

On October eighth, Krishnaji was scolding me saying he’s going to "speak to my unconscious". He said that he has noticed that I have neglected my body, that for reasons he doesn’t want to inquire into it, I am highly nervous physically. It shows in an unquiet face, fiddling with fingers, etcetera. I have tried to correct it from the outside, through will, through the conscious mind, and when he has pointed out these mannerisms, I have responded with effort, will, irritation, or depression- all of which are superficial responses. He said, “I am now talking to a deeper level, out of affection. It is from this level, from the inside, you must listen and change. If you do, in a few days, you will be different. There will be an awareness of your body.” He said that after my husband died, for eight years, I abandoned my body, neglected it. Today, I have greatly changed and am aware in many ways, but still not in the well-being of the body. He will speak at this level to me, to "my unconscious" during the coming days.’

October ninth. ‘Last night Krishnaji again said, “I’m speaking to your unconscious mind. I feel it doesn’t feel it is important or you would’ve changed these habits during these five years. Do you know what it is to be quiet?” As he was saying this, I saw that the habits are offshoots of tension; I don’t feel tense or nervous, but somehow, to get things done, I build up this steam of energy, which has a quality of tension. It feels like being in high gear. This shouldn’t be necessary. It probably wastes the very energy I need. I see that, from the inside, a quietness is necessary, and that the core of these things cannot be done from without. It is a false tension. Quietness inside, I understand that. Later this morning, while doing dishes in the kitchen, Krishnaji said he felt a difference in me. Then late in the evening, he said, “You have taken the first initiation. Do you know why you have taken so long? When you do, it will be the second initiation.”’

*

a quote from Krishnaji: ‘“I had an odd dream last night. There was a certificate that the mother, probably our mother, was dead. And I sat down on the bed and put my hands on her, and gradually I felt the warmth return to her and she sat up. Then I woke up. Probably it is symbolic.

*

he sixteenth of August (1973) . ‘Krishnaji, about his head pains, and that faraway feeling, said, “These people usually remain in one place surrounded by their disciples. The Buddha walked eighty miles, but that wasn’t very far. This body was made sensitive and it rebels at being pushed around in strange places.”’
‘I said, “Shouldn’t it stay in one place?”’
‘Krishnaji said, “If you mean Brockwood, no.’

*

Krishnaji told her of the curious thing that happened before the first Brockwood talk two weeks ago, August thirty-first. He woke in the night feeling as if a ball of light were being placed in his head.

*

On the drive this morning (August 1972) Krishnaji spoke of death. “I don’t like to speak of your father,” he said, “but what happens to a man like Rajagopal?” Late in the evening he said the following, which I wrote down verbatim

K: Take a man like X who is suspicious, jealous, secretive, concerned with his physical security. He is, after all, a product of his environment, his culture, his pattern of behavior. He may have peculiarities, his temperament, his so-called character. His mind is conditioned by the class he was born in, and so on. And when he dies, and that’s what we are talking about, what happens to him? He has not come out of his (psychic ?) ‘environment.’ He has not made anything of life. He is merely reacting within his conditioning, which may be very clever, cunning, artistic, but he has not come out of it. He is part of the whole quivering mass. He may think he will reincarnate, be reborn, or absorbed into something greater, which is his hope and comfort, but basically, he is still a result of his tradition, of his forefathers, his environment. He has not come out of it, so he is absorbed into his basic conditioning. This sounds cruel, but as you observe, he is part of this humanity. As he was in his life, so he is in death. To live with death every day is to deny totally this conditioning. So to die to conditioning every day is to live a life of a different dimension.

*

(1974) We had supper as usual on trays and watched “Washington Week in Review.” Then Krishnaji watched Ben-Hur on television. I came in several times to remind him it was getting late, and when I came in at 9:45 p.m., he was sitting with the sound turned off and a far-off look. He said, “Sit down quietly.” He looked as though something were happening—intent, listening, aware of something. ‘Soon he left the living room and told me it had been extremely intense, a “precipitation,” something so strong in the room he had been prepared for it to become “manifest” in some further way “visible—I don’t know how. I’ve never felt it like this. Something is happening.” He said later that it continued when he was in bed so that he stayed wide awake and had to sit up. His head was bad.’

*

A little later he said, “One shouldn’t die violently, suddenly. It is too much of a shock.”
A shock to the one who dies? I asked.
“Yes. It should be willingly, healthily.
Few people die willingly, I said.
I’ll talk to you about that another time.

He told of the time some years ago when Kitty Shiva Rao was with him on a flight from Delhi to Benares and the plane came into thick fog. Kitty, sitting beside him, got panicky, and Krishnaji took hold of her hand and said, “If we are going to die, we are going to die. Let’s do it happily.” She calmed down, but pretty soon as the plane lost altitude, she began to get hysterical. Krishnaji spoke to her again and then the pilot got below the fog and was able to land.’ There’s another anecdote with Kitty, when he said, “Nothing will happen because you’re with me.” He always thought that if he was in a plane, it would be safe.’

*

(1975)At supper he asked about the Ananda magazine that Tapas had sent. I read him part of an article by E. A. Wodehouse withering Arundale for carrying on ceremonies in Benares in 1928 when Mrs. Besant asked Krishnaji to preside at a TS congress in her absence, and out of politeness to Krishnaji and his views decreed there should be no ceremonies. Krishnaji remembered it vaguely and smiled. He said E. A. Wodehouse wrote very well, but gradually died of laziness.He looked at the magazines. “We were all very young then.” There is a chapter on the Hindu version of the Lord Maitreya in their sacred books. I read it to Krishnaji. Maitreya foretold by Gautama, it said, did not become a Buddha himself, but refused it until humanity is rescued, hence he returns to human life.’ That’s why the Maitreya returns.
‘I asked Krishnaji, “Will you become a Buddha?”’
‘“You mustn’t ask that,” he said. “It doesn’t work that way. These people made it all into a hierarchical affair.”’

*

Erna handed me to read the five-page account, handwritten by Pupul Jayakar of events in June 1948 in Ootacamund when Krishnaji was “off,” in great pain, spoke of **“they have burnt me so there can be more emptiness. They want to see how much of Him can come.

Then it goes on about ‘something to being close to death but not wishing it “as there is so much to be done” and of something happening on the walk (when he was alone) and not being able to remember it, of fearing 'pieces of him' were left on the road, of a great power filling him.

*

During lunch, Mary Lutyens gave Krishnaji the first and only copy so far of the biography Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening. On the dust jacket there is part of one of the photos of Krishnaji taken in 1926 in Indian clothing standing in front of the Gobelin tapestries at Castle Eerde. I read the biography all afternoon while Krishnaji slept. Then, he and I went for a walk and talked about the book. He asked if it would really interest people, what they could make of it ?

I said that the first part, which is all that I have so far read, may bring up the inevitable questions about Theosophy, masters, etcetera—if the masters exist, why all those communications reported with them then and nothing since?

Krishnaji said, It is simple. The Lord is here.

I said, You mean those communications were necessary to prepare for that (coming ?) ?

Krishnaji replied: Obviously. I just thought of it [with humor in voice].

I asked: Am I being dense or insensitive not to perceive such things, or am I simply not being spoken to?

Krishnaji said, You’re doing what you should, looking after K. There may be no need to communicate (with you) . You have been with me how long? You are perhaps used to certain things.

I began to tell him of the curiously full reporting by the young Krishnamurti of his “initiation,” so unlike his present-day way of describing, so detailed, etcetera. But Dorothy came along the lane and joined us, and we couldn’t go on with the conversation

*
The tenth of May. ‘I put the biography on Krishnaji’s bed beside the breakfast tray. He said he wasn’t going to read it’ ‘but I thought he might read parts, and so he did, starting with the discovery of the boy. He asked how far I had read in the night, which was up to page 120, and what it seemed to me.’

I said: So far, the mystery of his becoming what he is, is deepened by the book. Working from Krishnaji’s letters to Mary L.’s mother and the latter’s diary gives a picture of an entirely immature, partly Victorian child, surrounded by jealous and competing friends, much talk of "love" that is childish and unreal.

Krishnaji said: The boy was not conditioned, that he was fed all the TS stories, but that it was superficial, and it went into his head and out. If he were conditioned, he said, he would’ve gone on in the TS way.

I pointed out that many people have changed belief or views, but he said this was different. He was simply empty, moronic, dull. What made him awake? He thinks that slowly, drop by drop, he was awakening, changing. There was no real conditioning there. He was untouched and the very slow maturing was important. “Care of the body was and is important. I have right food and all that. I may live to be 100 (90 ?)

*

On May eleventh (1975) , Krishnaji spoke to the school in the Assembly Room. He asked what is the most important question in life? He was critical later of their lack of response. On the walk, he said to Dorothy (Simmons) , “They are 'dead'…It’s no use to ask what Brockwood can give to them or they to Brockwood.” And in the evening, to me he said, “What is the use of all this? In five years, there is not one student who has understood something.”

*

Doris, having read the biography, heatedly asked Krishnaji why he had to suffer so. Do we all have to go through that? Krishnaji replied that to come upon something new, to discover, one person had to go through it in order to be able to point it out to others.’

*

When I brought Krishnaji his supper, he said he had a message from the Great White Brotherhood thanking me for looking after him, but I mustn’t spoil him.”

*

June third, Krishnaji spoke to the school and said, “I will teach them in spite of themselves.”’

*

‘Before lunch today, Krishnaji had a very far-off look, while sitting with Erna and Theo. At lunch, he said to Erna, You asked about the process. It began here( in Ojai) . Pains, fainting. It’s probably Kundalini. I am very skeptical about those things. I doubt most who say they have had it.

*

Then,( 1976) he said, “Do you feel something in the room?” I had and did. And strangely, the tiredness I had felt disappeared as if a transfusion of strength had been given.’
On January tenth. ‘At breakfast Krishnaji said, “I once saw ‘a face.’ I’ve been feeling ‘that face’ all night. Something happens to me here.”’
‘I asked, “Something curious happened to me last night when you were talking to me. Did you know that?”’
‘He replied, “Yes. I will tell you sometime, not now.

In the car coming home, I asked about “the face.” He has seen it often, “out there like that bush there.” A face only, not a body.’

‘I asked, “Does it move or speak? No. I have been seeing it since that night”’‘(Friday) not outside, but inside. It usually means it is moving into this body.”**’
I asked if it could presage his “going off,” and, if so, should he stay alone in the cottage while I am in the hospital?’ That will not happen when I am alone,” he said. “The body must be looked after.”’

*

K.” He then said that at Ojai, he had a feeling he must offer a chance to Rajagopal and RR’—that’s Rosalind—‘to redeem themselves, expiate their sins before they die. Must do it, so they cannot refuse, for if they do, it will be worse.’
‘“Greater damnation?” I asked.’
‘“Yes,” said Krishnaji.’

*

. Krishnaji came in and talked seriously. He said, “My life is uncertain and because it is uncertain, it is enduring. He said, “There is something more in my life than K, and if "That" operates, it will do what it wants. No one can prevent it. And he said, “My love for you is without attachment, and therefore it will endure.”’

*

From Krishnaji, “I will talk to your body, not you, on a quiet face and quiet hands.”…“I am aware of gestures as I talk; why aren’t you?” said he.’ . Krishnaji was always bothered that my hands were not quiet. It bothered him always. Bothers me still.

 On the twenty-second, ‘Krishnaji walked in his sleep last night. I must’ve heard him bump into something in his room, for I woke up suddenly and totally and alarmingly.’ ‘He came into the sitting room, where I was sleeping on the sofa. I spoke to him, and he said, “Maria?”’ That’s the name he called me. ‘I put on the tiny Dutch flashlight and saw Krishnaji was standing against the wall facing it.’ That means he would’ve had his back to me. ‘He woke up with the light and went back to the bathroom and bed, falling immediately deeply asleep. I could hear his breathing was that of sleep. I stayed awake a long time. In the morning he said, “I must’ve walked in my sleep. I have never done that.”

February twenty-third. ‘Krishnaji at breakfast said, “My head, here”—he indicated the back part—“feels as if it were expanding—great stillness, air, and light.” He gestured and laughed. Last night he seemed to have walked in his sleep again. I was instantly awake around 1 a.m. when I heard him walking in his room. I spoke and he responded, and came in. “I wonder why I do this.” He went back and slept immediately.

‘And so, we didn’t get off till about 5 p.m. in the car. Krishnaji said his head was suddenly bad. He asked me to drive between fifty and fifty-five m.p.h.’ That means slowly. ‘Suddenly he said, “I almost fainted just now.” Several times, he put one hand over his eyes and groaned. “It’s pretty bad,” he said. Along the coast road near Decker Road, he fainted for about two minutes. The seat belt held him gently so that he didn’t fall into my lap as in past faintings. When we reached the house, he said he was alright, and jumped out and opened the garage doors. We carried things into his room. When I asked, he said, “I’m alright. Don’t worry. I never faint when I’m alone.” So, I went to fix our supper. Going to bed and saying goodnight later, he said his head was bad.’. Krishnaji also saw Rusch and Carey Smoot. We enlarged on Monday’s decisions. Tea afterward. Krishnaji had a stomachache after lunch, but felt better later.’

February twenty-seventh. ‘We left at 11 a.m. for Ojai in the green car, Krishnaji driving. Along Zuma Beach, he asked, “Have you any paper?” I found a scrap in my bag and wrote what he said. “A strange thing happened this morning. I was sitting quietly, a sort of meditation, and suddenly, there was absolute silence, a withdrawal of everything, and it was like death; there was this body sitting quietly and this truth of not existing anywhere; complete death. And if I hadn’t felt, by Jove, this is getting too far, I don’t know what would’ve happened. It was absolute nothingness. It felt as though, if that state continued, the body would die. There would be an end of everything.”

‘Then, I asked, “Was it similar to the times on a walk alone when you felt like going away?”’
‘Krishnaji replied, “It was much more intense this morning.”’
‘I asked, “When did it happen?”’
‘Krishnaji said, “After I’d seen you.” Which was about 7 a.m.’
‘I said, “Before breakfast?”’
‘He replied, “Oh, long before breakfast. There was a period when the back of the brain was tremendously ventilated, as though taking deep breaths and being filled with air. It went on for some time.”’
‘“How long?” I asked.’
‘Krishnaji said, “May have been two or three minutes or more. I don’t know.”’
‘I asked, “When you felt it was getting too much, was it then instantly out?”’
‘Krishnaji replied, “Oh, instantly out.”’

What do you think it is? I asked.’
He said, “I’ve had it before, but it was in the sense of going away, "withdrawing" is the wrong word. It was absolute stillness. I think it has to do with what happened in the brain, the expanding, getting ventilated, really air going into it: a slight strain, as though a new fresh brain had been put into it.
It sounds so damn silly.” Then he laughed. “A totally uncontaminated…”’ I

*

‘We were off at 11 a.m. with Krishnaji driving. After a while, he said, “The curious thing is happening. A new thing is being added to it. This morning it was so easy—it has become quite ordinary—it is there, nothingness, a vast space of nothingness. The new thing I felt a few days—something—that word sacred; something totally holy—sacred—I don’t know what it is.

*

He described Rosalind's anger when he used to heal. “Why do you do that!?” she would say.’ And her walking out when he would talk to the Happy Valley teachers. She didn’t come to discussions. ‘“She was too stupid to understand,” and he retold her query when The Commentaries were published, “Did you write that? You couldn’t have. It must’ve been Rajagopal.”’

*

‘At 4 p.m. he talked about how to handle a child who doesn’t respond the to two approaches they use, creating an atmosphere and by dialogue. The child is self-centered, gets attention by behaving badly. Krishnaji said, “Can you move his attention from himself by creating another attention which he will want, instead of giving him the personal attention which he wants, you move his attention away from him with the same intensity, divert his energy.”’

I will talk to 8,000 people in Bombay about things that are the opposite of what they want. This is my problem, how to reach them. I point out something that is true, get them to look at it, not as opposed to something else. I appeal to their 'unconscious'. There may be an 'unconscious' movement for change. And this may affect parents to send the child to the school. The same quality may affect the child
There may be an 'unconscious' demand, urge, that we cannot go on living as we have in violence.
So, there are two things, to direct his attention and talking to his unconscious.
You mustn’t put him in the position of resisting. He may be here because 'something else' sent him, not his parents. Therefore, my responsibility is much gr he asked Krishnaji

*

Bud asked about the communications reported between Theosophy and the Masters. Krishnaji explained the beliefs that were held by the Theosophists, and way back, before that, by the Hindus and Buddhists. He said he has no memory of those days. Bud asked if Jesus figured in the Theosophical hierarchy. Krishnaji said Jesus was considered to be “a disciple,” not an "original".

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 20 Jul 2016.

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Thu, 21 Jul 2016 #226
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More 'lost & found' pages from K's life as recorded by Mrs Zimbalist

(May 1976) He said to me in the evening, I had the most extraordinary meditation while sitting at breakfast. I "went off". I must be very careful. You know, death is very close. You mustn’t look like that when I mention "death". It isn’t that; it is complete emptiness, nothingness.

*
Krishnaji spoke to school and guests on registering only at the biologic or technical level but not at the psychological level. A “thin, thin” surface registering without reaction of the psychological 'me'.

*

Krishnaji told me in the morning of a “strange happening,” and then while at his lunch, he spoke of it again to Vanda and me, and dictated the following:
Before beginning asanas, he generally sits quietly, thinking of nothing. But this morning, a strange happening took place, most unexpected and in no way invited. And besides, you can’t invite these things. Suddenly, it appeared as though in the center of the brain, the head, right inside, there was a vast space in which was unimaginable energy. It is a part, or it is there that nothing whatever is registered, for that which is registered is a wastage of energy. If one can call it, it was pure energy in a limitless space, a space that had nothing but this sense of immensity. One doesn’t know how long it lasted, but all during this morning, it was there. And as this is being written, it is as though it was taking root and becoming firm. These words are not really the thing itself.

Basta. I better go ahead and eat.

*

Krishnaji received a letter from Pupul from Bombay, saying she and Nandini had been writing all they could remember about the incidents at Ootacamund in May and June of 1948. She wrote down every night what had taken place during the evenings that she and Nandini were living at a hotel nearby, and Krishnaji was staying with Ms. Hilla Petit and Maurice Frydman.

She describes Krishnaji’s pain in spine, nape of neck, and tooth. Krishnaji had asked Pupul and Nandini to sit quietly, not interfere and not be afraid, not to touch him except to close his mouth if he fainted, and on no account to leave the body alone. He would toss on the bed, have fits of shivering and would call out for Krishna, and then put his hand to his mouth and say, “I must not call him.” The body appeared to be only a shell. In this state, the voice was frail, childlike. “Then, suddenly, the body appeared to fill with a vast presence, Krishnaji would sit up, cross-legged, his eyes closed, the fragile body would appear to grow and fill the room, and there was a palpable, throbbing silence that poured into the room and enveloped us. In this state, the voice had great volume and depth.

They remembered one incident vividly: Krishnaji in great pain, stomach swollen, tears streaming down his face, suddenly fainting, and the body becoming intensely still. “The traces of pain and fatigue were wiped away. The face was greatly beautiful. There was a radiance, a light that illumined it and a stillness, and a sense of vastness that we had never witnessed. A quality of sacredness filled the room.”…“For moments, he lay unmoving. Then, his eyes opened. He saw us, and after sometime said, ‘Did you see that face?’ We said, yes, but could not say anything else as we had no words. Krishnaji lay silently, and then, ‘The Buddha was here.’ And then after sometime, ‘You are blessed.’…“Most of the time in the room, we had no part to play in what was happening, and yet, we had a role we could not understand. We questioned him during the day, but he became vague and would not explain…On most occasions, while the pain rocked him, he spoke of trees and wind, rain, nature, its storms, and vast silence. There was nothing personal in him during the incidents, no emotion, no relationship to us. The ordeal appeared physical, and yet the next day it left no traces on his face or body. Not a word that was said by him had psychological overtones. What he spoke was totally impersonal. The sense of the sacred permeated the room and the atmosphere on every occasion.

Krishnaji didn’t read it for quite a while. He said, “We’ll read it together later,” and then put it off. When I asked about it later, he said, “I’ve seen it. I’d be shy to have it read out loud.”’

*

Krishnaji said our talk yesterday in Villa Glori was very much in his mind. He had me repeat it, and then write him a memo on it to take with him. He said, “First there is freedom, then insight, revolutionary action. If they stiffen into a pattern, then follows dogma and power. Freedom is movement. When or if insight becomes knowledge, then dogma follows. Freedom from 'self' brings insight. When there is insight, there is radical transformation, which is freedom. When fundamental change does not take place, then there is pattern, dogma, and power.

*
Krishnaji spent the day in bed sleeping, reading. He said, “I don’t dream anymore. Somewhere in Madras or Rishi Valley, I forget which, I dreamt Rajagopal was chasing me and then I woke up. I said this is silly to keep thinking of that man. That is enough. And so I went into it, and I haven’t dreamt since.

*

( Ojai 1978) In the evening, suddenly, while watching a Hitchcock movie on television, Krishnaji said, “I must’ve been born this way, able to see directly. I have never been through all that... What makes me see all this?
I suggested that he never thinks about all these matters except when he’s talking seriously. He nodded.’

*

In the evening something came up that made me ask Krishnaji if mankind’s impulse toward religion is a plea to make things better, or something deeply inherent. He replied, “I think it is inherent.”

*
Vanda ( Scaravelli) began to tell Mary about the events that began in July ’61 at Tannegg, the period at the start of Krishnamurti’s Notebook, when Krishnaji was staying with her. Krishnaji, in his room, suddenly fainted, and then as Vanda described it, his eyes became enormous and another being spoke to her through Krishnaji’s body. An extraordinary change came over the face. It happened on July 18, 1961. The voice said, “Don’t leave me until he comes back.” And then, “He must love you if he lets you touch me, as he is very particular in this.” And “Don’t let anyone come near me until he comes back.” On the following day, it happened again. Krishnaji fainted. After trembling, the eyes became larger and deeper, and the voice said, “I feel very strange. Where am I? Don’t leave me. Will you kindly stay with me until he returns? Are you comfortable? Take a chair. Do you know him well? Will you look after him?” It was this last question that Vanda said “Is why I am here.” She feels she gave her word on this; she said that for a whole month Krishnaji’s face continued to change. There was not a return of the other being but a “different look” would come over his face.

A year later, the twenty-first of May, 1962, in Rome when Krishnaji was ill with fever, and became delirious. “It has been told to you to look after him. He should not have gone out. You should’ve told him.” And, “Do you know him? You cannot know him. How can you know the running water?”…“We repeat and never question. Tell him, take a pencil, tell him ‘Death is always there very close to you, to protect you.’…‘When you take shelter, you will die.’ (
Mary Lutyens and I guessed there were four entities in all this. The one who 'goes away' (presumably Krishnaji); the one who tells what should be done; the one with the great eyes; and probably the childlike one who also spoke to me in Gstaad when Krishnaji was delirious.

 I don’t know why we got the fourth one with the “great eyes” it says. I didn’t see 'great eyes' when I had the same experience. Well, I don’t know what she interprets, because when—I’m now judging from my own experience with him, which is that he was looking around the room and didn’t recognize or even know who I was. I’ve written about that elsewhere. And he spoke to me as though…and he said, “Did you ask him any questions?” he said to me. He was looking around the room, as though he didn’t know where he was; he certainly didn’t know who I was. And he spoke to me as though I were a stranger, “Did you ask him any questions?” and I said, “No.” And he said, “He doesn’t like to be asked questions.”
But his eyes could’ve been described more as…they were unseeing. They were eyes of…

 Well, without repeating it all, the one who is left says, ‘“Don’t leave me until he comes back.” And then, “He must love you if he lets you touch me as he is very particular in this.”…“Don’t let anyone come near me until he comes back.”’ And then on the following day, it happened again. Krishnaji fainted after trembling. ‘The eyes became larger and deeper and the voice said, “I feel very strange. Where am I? Don’t leave me. Will you kindly stay with me until he returns.”’ That’s still the one who’s left, but, you see, that has the big eyes.vI think it’s the same one who’s looking around bewildered ‘“Will you stay with me until he returns? Are you comfortable? Take a chair. Do you know him well? Will you look after him?”’ It was to this last question that Vanda said ‘“Is why I am here.”’ She took it as her job, just as I took it as my job when he said these things. ‘She feels she gave her word on this. She said that for a whole month Krishnaji’s face continued to change. There was not a return of the other being, but a “different look” would come over his face.
 Well, there’s always a person who goes away, and there’s always the person who’s there, who is, as he said to me, something like…“Even after all this time, all these years, I don’t feel at ease with him.” That’s said by the person who is left, when Krishnaji has gone away.The one who doesn’t know who you are, or where he is, really, and he looks around with vacant eyes, which could be described as 'big eyes'. She said, ‘“there was not a return of the other
being, but a  ‘different look’ would come over his face.”’

I only made one mistake in not sensing it. It was in Malibu and we were having supper on trays and looking at the evening news. And I was sitting on that long sofa that’s in the other room; and I was sitting on that long sofa, and he was at the other end; it’s twelve feet long, so it was quite a ways away, and the television was over there, and we were both watching it. And we’d been talking. And he was eating; I was eating. And I suddenly made some remark, and he reacted with a convulsive shock as though…a physical shock. And I didn’t realize that he’d suddenly gone off. I mean, it wasn’t unlikely. He would go off in many unusual moments, but I hadn’t picked it up. And it gave him this physical shock. And the next day he told me that he’d been shaking all night from it. So you had to be very sensitive. And that’s the only time I didn’t pick up the signal.

*

November fifth (1978) , ‘There was another small group discussion ( in India) at 9:30 a.m. Krishnaji used the analogy, “You have been given a baby. What have you done with it? Have you cared for it? Is it the most important thing in your life?” Pupul spoke of “clouding over”; one has clarity, then it clouds over. Krishnaji in effect said, “You let this cloud over because you are not serious. You have not accepted the baby’s responsibility. You have not given it your being, your total energy. This is not the whole of your life.” It hit hard at most of them. He spoke with great force. At lunch, he lingered at the table until 3 o’clock discussing whether Nagarjuna and Shankara’—these are great teachers in Buddhist and Hindu traditions—whether they ‘had the insight of the Buddha, or whether intellect brought saints to see the limitations and the futility of intellect, until out of that and an ensuing search, there came an insight. Krishnaji felt that a Buddha and possibly Nagarjuna, “They were not intellectuals though they had great intellect.” He felt that they had insight born of compassion. Then, from that, came intelligence.

*

January thirteenth (1979) . There was a discussion at breakfast with Krishnaji, Achyut, Sunanda, Radha, and I on what Krishnaji means by 'no recording'. I asked if he meant 'no recall'. He said, “In insight, there is no recording.” I asked him about The Notebook that he wrote, in which he describes what happened earlier. He said, it was not written using memory. The words 'happened' (came ?) at the moment of writing.

*

 The sixteenth. ‘At breakfast, Krishnaji, Radha, Sunanda, Pama, and I had a discussion on reincarnation of which this is a rough summary: There is a "stream", which is ( sustained by our self-centred ?) thought, attachments, etcetera. Thought is a material process. If when the body dies, ( our) attachment, etc, has not been understood and ended, that attachment, that ( self-identified ?) thought continues as part of the ( collective ?) Stream. It can manifest in another but it is not reincarnation of a total person. Ego is an illusion.’ ‘The desire for reincarnation—the wanting another chance is part of attachment, thought, the stream. Karma—cause and effect, is meaningless if one sees this.

*

Krishnaji seemed to feel that what “the boy” was like and whatever went on in his mind—as he kept asking—eluded him.’ But for me, the picture was a true line throughout; the dreamy child who when punished by the school master would stand on the veranda until told to leave, who often had to be fetched home by his little brother, was a gentle, compliant boy who replied to his TS elders, “Whatever you say” when asked about doing something. He was polite and accepting, but not really touched by their world; it went in one ear and out the other. He learned outward things: manners, speech, witnessed the TS goings-on, but it left little mark; he was 'elsewhere'. He remembers vaguely standing by the Adyar River for hours, staring at it, vacant. This vacancy was some "otherness" that protected him, let whatever he is grow, mature very slowly. It protected him from most of the pulls of life later on, from the brutalities of Rajagopal and Rosalind. It is there today when he is “off,” when he sits in Hamish Thompson’s dental chair for four hours without a thought; his "reality"", his native place is elsewhere, as it were. I said all this to him later and at supper when we all talked a bit about it.
In the "Rajagopal & Rosalind" times, he said he was sometimes physically beaten, but he didn’t resist their violence as he hadn’t fought against the wretched schoolmaster as a child. It all left no scars, just as the Theosophical beliefs did not condition his mind

*

When Krishnaji stopped speaking, he sat silently for a few moments, and Nandini and I went straight to the car, only yards away. But as Krishnaji rose, so did a wave of people pressing forward to touch him for "darshan"— people think they get a blessing if they can touch a holy man. ‘He was caught against the wall by people kissing his hands, his feet, touching him, and in a hysteria of reverence. Asit fought to keep the door of the car open and let him get in. It took minutes. And when he managed it, hands came through the window to touch him. Krishnaji was a figure of compassion, touching as many hands as he could, saying, “Be careful. Be careful.” Nandini called out, “You will be hurt.” And the answer came back in Marathi, “It doesn’t matter.” The chauffeur edged the car forward, but the crowd ahead obliterated the road. It took about ten minutes to drive the 100 or so feet to the street. In the morning, Krishnaji had said, “What will I talk about? Well, I suppose it will come. The day it doesn’t, I’ll shut up shop.”

*

Krishnaji went back to the health question and said he has always felt protected. Something, a “they” is looking after him for the purpose of the teachings. He feels that “they” will decide the time and manner of his death and he will know it. He asked Dr. Parchure how the Buddha died; apparently of eating bad food, but who knows, really.

*

We joined Mary for lunch at Fortnum’s. Talked of the second volume of the biography. The question was of how he got the way he is. He (K) said the choices were, “a biologic freak, a medium, or three, a late maturing mind.” He said if he were writing, he would consider all these very carefully, or is it something else? He would be with the person, K, and he would study him, question him. He, Krishnaji, discards the freak, and the medium. He said he did mature very late, really when he was sixty-five.’
 ‘Today he would never put up with what Rajagopal and Rosalind did. He would throw them out. Mary said that Rajagopal doesn’t realize how Krishnaji has changed, and so attributes it all to “wicked influences”’—that’s me.

*

Septeber eleventh (1979) : ‘Krishnaji said earlier in the morning that he had been sitting very straight in bed, mind empty, and there came a feeling as if something “were pouring into my head. It lasted ten to fifteen seconds to a minute. It was not imagination.

This post was last updated by John Raica Thu, 28 Jul 2016.

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Fri, 22 Jul 2016 #227
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Suddenly, it appeared as though in the centre of the brain, the head, right inside, there was a vast space in which was unimaginable energy

Hello John...

as far as I know this is what takes ( took) place eventually in a kthing or some other time too....k has this other talent to find the proper words to convey. The all quote is for me spot on..not so unusual for k though.

there is another world that we miss entirely is not it ?? And the best imagination of all time ever cannot match at all such world ...

cheers...

Dan ...........

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Fri, 22 Jul 2016 #228
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Indeed, Dan , the Higher Reality. Somehow K tried really hard to abolish the invisible boundaries between this Reality and...the pretty sad "reality" of our everyday life. The 'mediatic operation' was pretty much a success...yet the global consciousness of mankind is still seriously ailing - the very 'suffering' you're often talking does not manifest in its 'pure' form but it is commonly carried over by so many (unwilling ?) volunteers and does even 'explode' at times.

Yes indeed....this very suffering under all its form, this includes the tiny ones not perceived by a vast majority, are again a source of some sort of "work" for me...each time something right is done somehow about it, then all the time something unexpected takes place...

like this morning was not a good morning then one more time I had to find some new ways to leave that alone with no intention at all to do anything about it or to solve it ( as I know hat this is absolutely required), then all of a sudden the weight I was carrying just flew away , over my cuckoo nest, then instantly on one hand I was able to be very efficient about the practical tasks I was doing a bit all over the place and on the other hand was clearly perceived my own problem I was trying to blindly fight, that thought was trying to blindly fight...the simple fact not to fight what is called suffering brings something....then depending on something unknown to me, one or more problems are seen so solved...etc

this fight usually conscious now for me ,when some roots were of course unconscious so not seen, this fight was using most of my energy and none was left for practical work or too little...so the expression of suffering "in its pure form", as a process can lead to anything as "it" wishes...small things, big things, it does not matter at all...what matters is the "intention" behind, not that much was is happening or done , yet it has its importance of course but is then of secondary importance...

then you get some energy back etc etc...it is a sort of ongoing movement....any thought's wrong anchor brings back such problem which needs to be solved specifically and passively of course..

suffering as a process of course is what I mention...not the suffering as something to negate or escape from which is ....suffering itself too. So yes as you say it does not manifest in its pure form, a way of saying things that I like much, because it really speaks I think, so thank.

John Raica wrote:
But the whole 'K advent' ( or rather its spiritual logistics) brought about the possibility of awakening a 'new brain'- which, being 'new' has never known 'suffering'.

indeed, suffering as a process is a specificity of thought only is what I know , our other capacities do not get that....if I am right and it is very possible, this glitch we all have is not incidental but a necessity if not a "will", a need etc, as previously said this glitch has a specific function when and if left alone....accidentally thought does not leave it alone because this program believes that it is not itself so than it can act on it as a separate item, which it is not..

so nothing takes place as it is meant to..

It could be , not a new brain (yet I say why not indeed) but in fact a quite old part of our brain, which could be there from our beginning as we are now..it probably had worked in some unknown past then something went wrong..so Adam and Eve stolen myth would hide a .....fact !!! told in a romantic manner of course..

John Raica wrote:
And (en passant) the inner quality of 'listening' K is so often mentioning, would then be the absolutely necessary tuning-in to the 'good vibrations' of this new brain. It all may be that simple ...Come to think of it, this 'inward in- tuning' would be perhaps a better name for 'meditation' ( it would perhaps give back 'meditation' its good name usurped by so many 'psycho-opportunists' here and everywhere)

Yes, it could be a very good name for meditation. This new brain or old part of the brain depending on each one view on that, certainly is able to listen in a way thought cannot, in order to do so thought must not lead....

here is THE problem..

thanks..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 22 Jul 2016.

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Fri, 22 Jul 2016 #229
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 148 posts in this forum Offline

From the talk on education:

Q:...as a boy I must have been saying something very cruel to my parents, and they just broke down, both of them at once. It shocked me very much. I'll always remember that. It really made me see the violence that I was doing because they broke down, they cried and I had never seen them cry, may be two times in my life.

Something very similar happened between me and my teenage son...we had always been very close but one day he came home from school and said something very critical of me, rather hurtful. very defiant. I looked at him and somewhat shocked said something like: "so you don't like me any more....?" My wife who was standing there said later, that the look that came over his face was "unforgettable". He never acted like that again to either of us.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 22 Jul 2016.

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Sat, 23 Jul 2016 #230
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
like this morning was not a good morning then one more time I had to find some new ways to leave that alone with no intention at all to do anything about it or to solve it ( as I know hat this is absolutely required), then all of a sudden the weight I was carrying just flew away , over my cuckoo nest, then instantly on one hand I was able to be very efficient about the practical tasks I was doing a bit all over the place and on the other hand was clearly perceived my own problem I was trying to blindly fight, that thought was trying to blindly fight...the simple fact not to fight what is called suffering brings something....then depending on something unknown to me, one or more problems are seen so solved...etc

Hello

I need to add something here....

When there is tension ,frustration, and more, usually it is or unconscious or one knows it but not what it is....so a lot of energy is going to be used consciously and unconsciously to try to deal with that, yet usually it never works..

but there are too all the issues about the "ordinary everyday life " to deal with....and this is far too much for poor thought if it does not see at least what is what.....

so it is important for oneself to realise somehow that the frustrating side of life up to suffering does not need to be dealt with analytically but just lived, so left alone...then there is enough energy now to deal with all other practical aspects of the daily life....where one is going to understand more and more of what is really going on....

this is something the powers know and they can play with us by adding too much problems in the daily life by all means and as we know practically nothing or too little of ourselves of what we are, we are just lost and ready to be tamed as a flock..because we spend so much energy by running away from what we are deeply: lost in suffering !! when it is just impossible...

that was the point..not that clear but it will do for now or more....

schuss...

Dan ...........

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Sat, 30 Jul 2016 #231
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Fifteenth March (1983)

After the walk, ‘Krishnaji saw a video cassette of a film of himself in 1928 in New York and 1930 in Ojai. He said, “I felt no relationship between that chap and this chap.

*

Pupul came at 6 p.m. for an early supper in the hotel rooms. In conversation about how Krishnaji came to be what he is, a strange "something" was felt in the room. Krishnaji said it always comes when this subject is discussed seriously. And it always comes from the left.

*

(April )Then he jumped to Mary Lutyens' book, the second volume of the biography, The Years of Fulfillment, which has just come out, and which the Indian Foundation members have criticized severely. He said, Mary does not deeply enough know about “all this,” as she had not been around with him in years. He has been thinking about it, and he wants me to write every day so that at some point, and it may be years from now, I will write a biography, which will be right. He said it must start with something about myself, that I am not some devotee. Then he jumped to the subject of memory; of how it had come up in discussions in New York this past week, and how he asked me the question, “Is there something in the brain that is not touched by memory?” He examined it Thursday night, and Friday morning and on the plane to LA; and last night, he "saw it"—there is such a thing. Then he examined it rigorously, until he was sure. “From doubt to 'certainty', there is such a thing, and from that there is energy. When I got up this morning and did my exercises, I could have walked for miles. Now do you understand ?’

*

At lunch, he wore his new Navy fatigue shirt from L.L.Bean. He looks very smart and very young. We lunched at Arya Vihara. “David Bohm is picking my brains,” he said.

*

The twenty-second. ‘Krishnaji did a Sony dictation. A letter came from Mary Lutyens saying that her sister Betty had died suddenly of a heart attack. Krishnaji said, “Thank god. Poor Betty. She had an unhappy life.

*

And later, as we left the kitchen, he had me stop in the hall and look into the living room northeast corner. “You asked what you can do when you are alone here. You must look quietly at that, not hastily. (It is where the jewels are buried ) . ‘It has been neglected. It is a shrine and one must pay attention to it or it will fade.

*

Krishnaji is being interviewed by a Donald Lattin, religious editor of San Francisco’s The Examiner.The reporter had files and Examiner interviews from fifty-five years ago with Krishnaji and Dr. Besant. He quoted Krishnaji as saying that he was Christ. “Did you mean that then?” he asked Krishnaji. “God knows,” said Krishnaji with amusement.’

*

In the morning, at the Huntington, he had come to my room, I thought to wake me up as we were leaving early. But he had stayed with me a little, and later he said he had awakened  “with something different” in his head, pointing to his forehead, “which frightened the body, so I came to you.” The feeling has continued, to a lesser degree, all day, but the fright is gone.’ The body, in Krishnaji’s terminology, is almost as though it’s another entity sometimes. ( but it was his responsibility) .

*

He (K) used to say to me, “You must outlive me.” And I would say,  “Why should I outlive you?” He would reply, “To look after me.”

*

May twenty-eighth. ‘We had our preferred two forward seats on either side of the aisle. I slept fitfully, contorted in my seat. Krishnaji sat upright like a statue. His sleeping face in the dim light was austere, majestic; an extraordinary carving. Then he awakened and his face became eager, alive as a child. He said he’d had a good meditation.

*

July third. Krishnaji said at lunch that he would live to be 100, “To see what it is like.” He later told me, “Rajagopal is getting it. I have sent two angels to tell him.”’ They were not persuasive. They, being angels, aren’t the best thing to be to deal with Rajagopal. He should’ve sent something from 'downstairs' with a pitchfork.

‘I asked what is happening along these lines in Russia, and Asit said they are concentrating on biochemistry, research into parapsychology, especially mind reading and control. Asit asked Krishnaji if this is possible. Krishnaji said, “Of course, mind reading is obviously possible.” Asit asked if Krishnaji could do it, and Krishnaji replied that he could, but that he refuses to. Then Krishnaji went on to say a person can block someone else reading one’s mind, reaching it. Rajagopal’s aggression is directed at him, but Krishnaji forms a 'wall' it cannot penetrate. On Krishnaji’s side, there is emptiness, which forms the wall, and within this, Krishnaji can function.’  ‘Krishnaji went on to say that because Rajagopal’s sendings cannot penetrate, “It is like coming up against a rock,” and it returns to Rajagopal. “I do not want to hurt him. I am not doing anything to him,” but something may change, that stillness may reach him, or perhaps he is too full o
f hatred, it may not. “It will be interesting to see.

Krishnaji spoke in that way that may be serious or may not of those very high in Masonry to whom two angels are given. They watch over the welfare of a person or persons, though he may not ask for himself and may rarely ask an action from them. Krishnaji has never asked his until now. But he has “sent two angels to talk to Rajagopal” to make him turn from this ugliness. Asit translated this into a force of goodness and Krishnaji smiled. He spoke of sensing an atmosphere when serious things are being discussed, which is different from the atmosphere when discussing computers.’ Asit asked if Krishnaji could convey to a friendly person instead of Rajagopal in ways that would change them. Krishnaji said that is what is happening in the tent, but the other person must be willing to listen. Krishnaji said he thinks the ancient Hindus knew about this. This is part of meditation.’

This post was last updated by John Raica Sat, 30 Jul 2016.

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Mon, 01 Aug 2016 #232
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Krishnaji spoke in that way that may be serious or may not of those very high in Masonry to whom two angels are given. They watch over the welfare of a person or persons, though he may not ask for himself and may rarely ask an action from them. Krishnaji has never asked his until now.

Good morning John

well about the masonry, those behind most bloody revolution and coup well, it is an empty shell for me, words and illusion, and it is only about power-money..as usual yes..

unless here it is about something else...I extensively red in many sources about such "secret society"..

I do not understand secrecy if it is about facts or truth, unless to spare ones life at some stage yes....but what is the point of truth then ???

apart from that specific point, well today such "behaviour" ,I mean k's "experiments", could send one to a mental asylum, especially if there was some inheritance in view...

My own experiment with this real telepathic talk in real time, in a language I did not know but understood and was able to talk too....and some experiments of people I know all impossible too would send many behind such walls....because it may be that the entire planet is in fact a huge asylum itself :-))

yet it takes place for some if not many and is fact as well as an opening of our other faculties ...

k has chosen not to give that to people..he certainly had his reasons...I am not trying to guess what they were.

it seems that the common analysing process we have left is only the superficial of the superficial....what is left for us then ??

cheers..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 01 Aug 2016.

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Mon, 01 Aug 2016 #233
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
For me personally there is no doubt that a certain process of inner integration is a 'must' and of course, K has an important point here : the fusion of the observer with whatever is observed inwardly.

Hello John, when trying to put in words why suffering, why properly living it etc what you say here says it: it necessary produces the fusion of the observer with whatever is observed inwardly, so that there is no observation at all for some time

if this does not take place that way, then there is no fusion but same old analysing, then the weight of life is not seen, solved and does not bring this extra-ordinary feeling beyond this weight

that is our first classroom as a potential adult to deal with anything being a weight in life, or dukkha or whatever words which suits here

all those nasty problems have for me the specificity to be impossible to be solved by thought...then by extension this will lead "somewhere" unpredictable for me so unknown....theoretically anywhere where that analyser is not,

the analyser will remain as it is vital...

I think that we are so behind or have so lost touch with our deep nature that it is terribly hard for us..

good machines yes but ....not enough to make a life but an eventual survival life time ..

John Raica wrote:
So any inward 'analysis' in terms of acquiring more knowledge about oneself is dualistic by nature...and that's the end of it.

Agreed.

John Raica wrote:
So, the only 'intelligent' alternative left would be to start learning about a new approach where the 'observer' gets fully immersed in the troubled waters of 'whatever is being observed'

this is where suffering enters into the game, for me it is so because nothing else , at first or may be more than that, will have enough power to force the analyser to step down willingly without any goal hope , etc this must and will include the unconscious lairs, it has to be that way, otherwise it won't "work"...this is why the necessary pressure of the weight of life to go that way, as it is not a natural way for thought!!

It is not that extraordinary but when one never did such immovable move into all a lifetime, then it is not only difficult but seems to make no sense at all! So one does not do that....I use "do" as the analyser is the one in charge at the very beginning....it is the one who has to step down from its leadership....

then when this is done at least once it may lead to people like k or whoever on that wavelength who all of a sudden gets the "message" in its deepest way or will give birth to more timid and less wide changes in oneself yet it will too....

we sure will find a huge varieties , forms, of changes taking place, like in the analytical world where differences at the surface are all over the place..that seems to be the deep nature of things..

John Raica wrote:
From where the necessity of some free inner space of quietness - I guess it was called 'contemplation' in the old times , where the actual 'temple' is located within oneself rather than 'outside'. Now, is this necessarily an 'esoteric' activity ?

well as everyone I know the word esoteric but I needed one definition here and I got that one: Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest

so for me if it is esoteric then it is not a truth, that is only my view.

living suffering does not need any intellectual capacities on the contrary....this is potentially there for everyone...this is something I observe around some I meet..

we worship, not me yet I had a potential very good one so they said (the IQ), the intellect so intellectual but it has no ,they have no key for mankind deep problems at all..they have eventual keys in practical stuff ,that is all...then they use that wasted talent for personal purposes because their all brain is not turned on..so they suffer so are in pain so use what they have to run away from it...

John Raica wrote:
It doesn't have to be, but the actual fact is that very few people are using this 'timeless' opportunity ( I'm not not talking here of the countless psycho-opportunists doing it 'for profit'). And from this already very small number...some 'make it' and some don't. And in the context of these Teachings it may all start with a quality of inner 'listening'...which -in my humble view- can be cultivated.

Agreed, something can to some extend be "cultivated"...

When I mention the proper dealing with this weight of life, when the weight is felt, this is still the analyser at work and as long as it is at work when it is still in its fields capacities it can "cultivate" some doing...

to make it clear, as I have learnt incidentally to properly deal with this "weight of life" making that life for me unbearable, when it has worked, produced something new, relief , extraordinary etc then I know that this must be done again..up to that point I know that I have to deal the proper way with that, this is still analysing so it can be still cultivated.....

The "desire" is analytical but the means won't be analytical, they can't be when such problem as the weight of life is concerned...

then I see that there will be numerous ways showing themselves...

Here I am talking about us as total beginners...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 01 Aug 2016.

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Thu, 04 Aug 2016 #234
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Below is ( a lost & found page from Krishna’s account of his Initiation ( from a letter) addressed to Mrs Besant (From Mary Lutyens fierst volume of K's biography ' The Years of Awakening'

January 12th, 1910. When I left my body the first night, I went at once to the Master’s house and found Him there with the Master Morya and the Master Djwal Kul. The Master talked to me very kindly for a long time, and told me all about the Initiation, and what I should have to do. Then we all went together to the house of the Lord Maitreya, where I had been once before, and there we found many of the Masters—the Venetian Master, the Master Jesus, the Master the Count, the Master Serapis, the Master Hilarion and the two Masters Morya and K.H. [Kuthumi]. The Lord Maitreya sat in the middle, and the others stood round Him in a semicircle like this [diagram].

Then the Master [Kuthumi] took my right hand, and the Master Djwal Kul my left, and they led me in front of the Lord Maitreya, you and Uncle [Leadbeater] standing close behind me.

The Lord smiled at me, but He said to the Master:— ‘Who is this that you thus bring before me?’ And the Master answered: ‘This is a candidate who seeks admission to the Great Brotherhood’. Then the Lord asked:— ‘Do you vouch for him as worthy of admission?’ The Master replied:— ‘I do’. The Lord continued: ‘Will you undertake to guide his steps along the Path which he desires to enter?’ And the Master answered:— ‘I will’. Then the Lord asked:— ‘Our rule requires that two of the higher Brethern shall vouch for every candidate; is any higher Brother prepared to support this application?’ The Master Djwal Kul said:— ‘I am prepared to do so’. Then the Lord said:— ‘The body of the candidate is very young, if he should be admitted, are any members of the Brotherhood who still live in the outer world ready to take charge of him and to help him on his upward way?’ Then you and uncle came forward and bowed and said:— ‘We are ready to take charge of him’. The Lord continued:— ‘Are your hearts full of love for him, so that such guidance will be easy?’ And you both replied:— ‘They are full of love, brought over from many lives in the past’. Then the Lord spoke to me for the first time:— ‘Do you on your part love these two Brethren, so that you will gladly submit yourself to their guidance?’ And of course, I answered:— ‘Indeed I do love them with all my heart’. He asked:— ‘You desire then to join the Brotherhood which exists from eternity unto eternity?’ And I said:— ‘I wish to join when I am fit to do so’. He asked:— ‘Do you know the object of this Brotherhood?’ I replied:— ‘To do the work of the Logos by helping the world’. Then he replied:— ‘Will you pledge yourself to devote all your life and all your strength henceforth to this work, forgetting yourself absolutely for the good of the world, making your life all love, even as He is all love?’ And I answered:— ‘I will, with the Master’s help.’ He continued:— Do you promise to keep secret those things which you are told to keep secret?’ And I said: ‘I do promise’. Then He showed me many astral objects and I had to tell Him what they were. I had to distinguish between the astral bodies of a living man and a dead man, between a real person and a thought-image of a person, and between an imitation Master and a real one. Then He showed me many cases, and asked how I would help in each, and I answered as well as I could. Then He showed me an image of my worst enemy a cruel man whom I had hated, because he had often tortured my younger brother and me; and He said:— ‘Will you help even this creature, if he needs your help?’ But there can be no hatred in the Master’s presence, so I replied:— ‘Surely I will’. At the end He smiled and said that the answers were very satisfactory, and then He asked all the other Masters:— ‘Do all present agree to the reception of this candidate into our company?’ And all said that They did.

Then the Lord turned away from me and called towards Shamballa:— ‘Do I this, O Lord of Life and Light, in Thy Name and for Thee?’ And at once the great Silver Star flashed out over His head, and on each side of it in the air there stood a figure—one of Lord Gautama Buddha and the other the Mahachohan. And the Lord Maitreya turned and called me by the true name of the Ego and laid His hand upon my head and said: ‘In the name of the One Initiator, whose Star shines above us, I receive you into the Brotherhood of Eternal Life; see to it that you are a worthy and useful member of it. You are now safe forever, for you have entered upon the stream; may you soon attain the further shore!’ Then He gave me the Key of Knowledge and showed me how I might always and anywhere recognize any member of the Great White Brotherhood when I met Him; but these things, He said, I must not repeat. Then He spoke to my two sponsors and asked them to take charge of the necessary buddhic experiences. Then all the Masters, one by one, touched my head and spoke kindly to me and congratulated me, and the Lord Maitreya gave me His blessing.

Then the Star disappeared and we all came away, and I awoke feeling wonderfully happy and safe. I very soon went to sleep again, and all that day I was away from my body, being taught about the buddhic plane, and how to form a buddhic body and a mayavirupa [a materialised astral body]. But I do not remember that very clearly in this brain; because it has come down through several planes. The next night I was taken to see the King, and that was the most wonderful experience of all for He is a boy not much older than I am, but the handsomest I have ever seen, all shining and glorious, and when He smiles it is like sunlight. He is strong like the sea, so that nothing could stand against Him for a moment, and yet He is nothing but love, so that I could not be in the least afraid of Him. And the Silver Star that we have seen is just part of Him—not sent there, for He is there and everywhere all the time, but just somehow made so that we can see it. But when we do not see it, He is there just the same. He told me that I had done well in the past, and in the future I should do still better; and if my work should be difficult I must never forget His presence, for His strength would be always behind me, and His Star would shine over me. Then He raised His hand in blessing and we came away. There were three other Shining Ones who stood behind Him, but I did not look at Them, for I could not take my eyes from Him. On the way there and back I saw enormous ruins and a great bridge, different from any other that I have ever seen; but I was thinking so much of Him, that I did not notice them very much.

This post was last updated by John Raica Thu, 04 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 05 Aug 2016 #235
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Here are a few lost and found pages about K's youth extracted from Pupul Jayakar's remarkable K Biography:

This anonymous account of K in Pergine was found among Shiva Rao’s (who was supposed to write K's official biography) papers after his death. It is possibly a diary kept by Nitya. Though the author’s identity is not known, the document appears authentic.

August 29, 1924: Our life here is one of intense inner activity and almost complete outer inertia. Or that is what it should be and what Krishnaji desires.
On previous holidays of this kind, when Krishnaji has collected around him those whom he desired to teach and help and has retired to some quiet spot away from civilization, there has been no concerted plan of action. Krishnaji has of course spoken to each of his followers individually, but never before have the Masters been spoken of to us all collectively, as in our present group, so that every grade and those who were still apart might listen and talk openly about them.

We are here for but one purpose, to take definite “steps” and thereby become directly useful to Them. Each one has his opportunity; each one is at a different stage, and therefore capable of serving those above and helping those below.
The regime for the day is, meditation at a quarter past eight, breakfast at eight thirty. A walk down to an open stubble field where we play rounders for an hour or two, and then one hour’s talk under the trees, of the Masters and of how to serve Them. Lunch at 12.30—rest or individual work, if wished, until three; games in the ( Eerde ) Castle grounds, bath, and dinner at six. After which all separate for the night, some of us going to the Square tower where certain intensive preparation goes on for an hour. Bed at 8.30.

Krishnaji is of course the central figure of each day; of the games, and of the work. Around him everything [is] centred; Krishnaji’s life is one of absolute devotion to the Lord, such passionate worship of the idealistic and the
beautiful—and yet he is so perfectly human and so near to his fellow men. No words can depict his character, but he seems like a human creature who has perfected himself to a great extent, rather than a divine being in an imperfect human form. Surely what the Lord will desire, will be a perfect human instrument, so that he can contact humanity on its own level. The divinity He Himself will show forth through the instrument. Never except at the coming of a World Teacher to His world is there such a union between those things which are Divine and those that are human. For usually humanity reaches up to Divinity and the moment it touches it becomes one with it, but in this case Divinity reaches down to a human instrument, uses it, works through it as separate and apart from it, and retires again leaving the instrument still a human instrument. Certainly the evolution of the human instrument is often so quickened that it becomes almost immediately super-human (through this service) but this is a separate process. Man may reach up and become Divine but he cannot use divine powers while he is still human. Whereas the Divine can descend and use human powers, even though he is no longer human.

Today Krishnaji was very alive at breakfast, and as often our conversation was not printable. The morning after a very serious talk or hard evening’s work, Krishnaji will often be most frivolous, making jokes and laughing at them uproariously, with his sudden thundering outbursts of mirth, or prolonged, infectious giggle. These two things are strange about him—first, his capacity to change from the most serious, real and glorious mood, to one of laughter and joking instantaneously; secondly that no joke he utters however vulgar, makes the usual atmosphere surrounding such talk. It seems as though his beauty, his absolute clarity of being, sweeps everything before it, so that he can touch any person, or object or subject, and impart his cleanness to it, endow it with the fresh air of his presence. Krishnaji tried to remember his own experiences. When he and Nitya first saw C. W. L. he showed them pictures of the Master M. and the Master K. H. and asked them which they preferred. When they chose the one of the Master K. H. he said it was as he expected.

When Krishnaji was young the Masters were very real to him, then it was that he wrote “At the Feet of the Master,” afterwards came a period when for him the reality was not so intense, he only believed because of what C. W. L. and A. B. said. Now again the intense realization has returned. Nitya said that our group should make an atmosphere which should “attract” Their attention. He spoke of the various influences at Ojai, on the different nights. That of the Master M. as a power that made you feel capable of anything. That of the Master K. H. as perfect kindness—it was as if honey were entering into you when he spoke. And that of the Master K. H. as absolute cleanness, perfect clarity. Then of the greatest of all influences, that of the Lord, as we also felt at Ehrwald “the peace that passeth understanding.”
Krishnaji spoke of Adyar as of a mighty power house, where either you became a saint, went mad, or were turned away as useless by an unerring watcher.

I have never seen him so radiantly beautiful as he is at nights, at these times. His eyes laugh with a strange unearthly joy, which is triumphant and yet so gentle. Gentleness and a sweet keen joy robe him, and show in the lines and curves of his face, and an aroma of roses surrounds and envelopes him. At times, he shivers as if cold and at other times he is too worn out, but on these nights, these particular nights of which I speak, the real Krishna, all that makes him what he is in the deepest sense, comes and looks out through his eyes.

September 1, 1924: Lady Emily compares Rajagopal to St. Peter. He is the Buffoon amongst the present disciples it seems; and he dearly loves his position as High Court Jester. To know Krishnaji, one has to know his followers. Rajagopal was once St. Bernard of Clairveaux, and at other times he has been a venerable priest; and both the saint and priest peep out through him over and over again. Perhaps especially the latter. He talks perpetually, and when making a speech is lengthy and tedious, in fact he sermonises. He is or rather pretends to be very fond of food, this being his chief topic for jokes etc. When Krishnaji is strained and tired, or the party in general, dull, Rajagopal has always some joke, or amusing phrase to hand, and he laughs at himself so persistently that everyone must join in. It is said that the one quality all the Masters have, and without which it is impossible for the disciple to progress, is a sense of humour. And the more the spiritual life is led the more this becomes apparent. A sense of humour will relieve the tension of feelings and thoughts under the most trying circumstances, and often it is just that that prevents a definite break in the work, or individually in a person. Certainly Rajagopal’s wit is not of the clearest, sharpest type, but then it allows Krishnaji and the others to take part and add their quota. Needless to say, Rajagopal gets a great deal of teasing, but then so does everyone who comes near Krishnaji, that being one way through which he influences people; especially of certain types.

One of Krishnaji’s theories is that people must surely be able to evolve through joy alone, arriving at Godhead as naturally as a flower opens to the sun. At one time it seemed almost to worry him, that everyone he met had evolved so far by the long devious ways of sorrow, and so few had taken the simple way of joy. I think I have heard him even say that he has never met anyone who evolved through joy alone, nevertheless it is a possibility, which would become very common if only our present civilization were not so complex. “Be natural, be happy.” So Rajagopal plays a great role in this mighty drama, in which Krishnaji is the first to laugh, the easiest to be amused. “Be a God, and laugh at yourself.”

Speaking of his two years of training with Leadbeater Krishnaji said he was “bored to tears,” literally. All desires were burnt out; for instance, K and N asked for bicycles, (probably as they were small boys they pestered C. W. L. for them); the bicycles were found and a ten mile ride was not only done once but they had to do it every day for two years. Also they expressed a desire for porridge; they had it—but again every day for a year; if they had dirty feet, or as once Nitya threw a stone at a frog, it was “Pupils of the Master do not do these things.” But it must have seemed hard then for the small dark boy who was to become the Krishnaji of today—the Jesus of tomorrow.

He has had many lives as a woman, and these have left a very strong trace in his character; his exceptional power of intuition makes him unlike most men. At times he can be as cruel as he can be the reverse, but this always for a purpose. One short sharp phrase, which his flashing eyes emphasise to an unbearable degree, that is all. Krishnaji will never offer to talk to anyone, unless an approach is made, and then for the first two or three times that a serious conversation is broached, he is terribly shy.

September 8, 1924: Lady Emily, Cordes and I sat in Krishnaji’s room. Krishnaji being in the one below. The time was about a quarter to seven, and all was the same as on ordinary nights, except for a magic silence that came down on us. Somewhere in the tower Nitya, Rama Rao and Rajagopal were chanting, and incense wafted in through the cracks on the door. We all felt His Presence, how would even the dullest fail to recognize the ineffable peace that pervaded the building. We sat “silent and rapt” for an hour.
Afterwards when we were all together, and Krishnaji sat in our midst it was as if we had all only just found each other; and as we spoke of what had happened, a low sweet laughter, of greatest inexpressible joy seemed to come to our lips. “If it is like this now, what will it be when the time comes?”

September 14, 1924: This afternoon instead of playing the usual “volley-ball,” we all lay out on the rocks which surround the Square Tower. Krishnaji squatted on the rocks with Rama Rao, examining a small yellow snail with great interest. Once before some years ago, I remember being with Krishnaji when he discovered a colony of ants and spent the whole morning feeding them with sugar, stirring them up and watching them carry eggs and rebuild their home. Presently, another snail was found and the two were made to crawl over each other and up and down precipitous crags. At Ehrwald last year, he was lying amongst the long grass and flowers, when a butterfly settled on his hand, and soon he had one or two poised on his finger. His delight was unbounded. He has a love of all creatures great and small, indeed anything that is beautiful or natural interests him; he will chase a grasshopper following its movements and noting the colour of its wings; or with his customary “I say!” will stand almost enraptured before a beautiful scene. “Just look at that lake, it’s so smooth, like ice—and dark green. See the reflections in it? Oh-ee you should see Lake Geneva—so blue.”

Krishnaji reads a small passage out of “The Gospel of Buddha” in meditation each morning. He is indeed a devotee, and the very sound of the name of the Lord Buddha, seems almost to make him tremble with a feeling of utmost worship. There was one sentence today, in which the Lord Buddha said, that the disciple who lives in the world must be like a lotus. In India, the lotus, symbolizes purity. Its ability to blossom fully while rooted in a muddy, slushy pond signifies the human ability to flower in purity and rise out of any condition however dark and sullied.

Krishnaji was speaking to me this afternoon. He spoke of the Lord Buddha and that state of existence which is absolutely without self. He is thinking much
of being absolutely impersonal these days, and already he seems to have dived deep into that clear well which is unsullied by the mud of self. As he spoke of the Lord Buddha, a new world lay stretched before one, in which all personal love and ambition died away and became as naught, only an impersonal, tremendous unshakeable love remained. The full realisation of life without self only came to Krishnaji while he was at Ojai, and even he finds it almost impossible to describe. He spoke of how when all the Masters were assembled together, the coming of the Lord Buddha was like the north wind, so free from anything even resembling self. He said: “Whenever I see the picture of the Lord Buddha, I say to myself, I am going to like it.”

The image of the Lord Maitreya has been appearing to him on several occasions. At Pergine on the last appearance He was to give Krishnamurti a message—“The happiness you seek is not far off; it lies in every common stone.” In another message, He conveyed “Do not look for the Great ones when they may be very near you.” For the next three evenings, Krishna was to laugh often, tell comic stories—many members of the party were shocked at his behaviour.

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Wed, 17 Aug 2016 #236
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

Talking about strange "lost & found" pages from the Book of Life, here are a few excerpts from an older book written by Estelle Roberts , who was a well known English medium - before and after the 2 nd WW. 'Red Cloud' was the 'stage name' of her spirit guide. There are quite a few striking similitudes with the deeper expression of the K Teachings

I have worked with Red Cloud for nearly fifteen years, and during
that time he has toiled unceasingly to demonstrate eternal spirit
truth. He has never told us who he was on earth. When asked, he
has always answered: "Know me by my works." We know that he
passed this way before us, when he probably dwelt in Egypt. We
believe, too, that he was either in this world, or very near to it, in
the days of Jesus of Nazareth. Once or twice he has tantalized us
into believing ourselves to be on the verge of discovering only to
find the answer has again been denied us.

We know that his identity as a Red Indian is a cloak which is
assumed in order to make receptive by us the very high vibrations
that are naturally his because of his advanced spiritual
attainment. He says he long ago reached the point in his evolution
from which, had he gone on, there would have been no returning
to this world. The choice was his - to go on, or to remain as a guide
and teacher to mankind, bringing peace of mind and
understanding of divine truths. He chose the latter course,
explaining to us: "As your elder brother, which I am, your sorrows
are my sorrows, your joys are my joys. When you fall back, I fall
back with you. When you go forward, I go forward, too."

Always Red Cloud is loving and kind. I have never known him to
condemn harshly any living person, though he will frequently
gently point out our errors.
He is ever ready to answer our
questions, though not always as directly as some sitters could have
wished. He is never dogmatic. In discussion and argument, he is
tolerant, never laying down the law, and forever reminding his
hearers that the final decision is theirs to make.
God has given
man a will of his own, he says, and man alone must exercise it.

In the many years that he has been my guide he has delivered
score of lectures, both in public and private sittings. Some of them,
particularly those having a scientific basis, have been too obtrusive
for the comprehension of the average circle-member, though great
scientists, such as Sir Oliver Lodge, read many of them with
respect and understanding. His philosophical teachings, follow
closely those of Jesus of Nazareth, whom he invariably calls "The
Nazarene" God, tells us, is perfect mind, which is love, wisdom and
power. God is not a being but a force of good which permeates the
universe and is infinite.
Evil is not force, but an error in thought
which has arisen in the world because of the misuse of free will. It
is finite and can be overcome by concentration on good and on
God.

As God dwells within each one of us, every individual is part of
the Whole which is God. And because we are all part of the Infinite
Spirit of God, we cannot die.
The gradual unfolding of the consciousness of the Mind of God
within us is the process of evolution of our souls. In order to find
God we must be "born again" into the realization that we are
spiritual beings, and into the acceptance of our personal
responsibility for every action we commit. Thus the extent of our
evolution depends entirely upon ourselves. As we desire, so we
shall receive.

The universe is ordered by divine law. If we follow this law, it will
lead to perfect harmony; if we go against it, the result is chaos. The
first law is that of love. Love is the ability to see only latent
perfection in our fellowmen.
Love is the attribute of the Divine
mind, whereas fear stems from the material mind. Love and fear
are the two incompatible opposites, the one forever striving to cast
out the other. Love is the complete negation of self; self-interest is the father of fear. The natural expression of love is service to
others, not so much in the p.erformance of great works as in doing
that which lies nearest to hand

To dwell within the kingdom of heaven is to dwell within the
Mind of God which lies within ourselves. All must first seek this
kingdom from which, once found, all else will flow. Prayer for
ourselves is purposeless, for we already have all we can ever need.
The only true prayer is the unceasing communion with the divine
spirit within us.
Never must we forget that God is within us, not
outside us, that we are all individual parts of God, which is the
Whole.

It is not to be expected that we can achieve perfection within the
span of one lifetime. After death we go to the astral plane, in which
there are many worlds of consciousness. After a period we
incarnate once again on this earth, or some other inter-penetrating
world, for the further progress of our souls. Eventually, and who
can say how long this may take, we reach a state of evolution at
which further reincarnation is no longer necessary and we pass on
to higher realms of spiritual existence.

In all his addresses Red Cloud quotes freely from the Bible,
sometimes changes the words of an accepted version to bring to
them a different and more illuminating meaning. The words, "Lead
us not into temptations," as they occur in the Lord's Prayer, for
instance, Red Cloud will never accept. The significance of these
words has many times been debated by theologians, but Red Cloud
is unhesitating in his judgement. "How can that which is Perfection
lead into temptation?" he asks. "God does not lead you there, for
that part of you which is God does not know temptation. Only the
carnal mind knows temptation and, too often, submits to it.
Therefore, when you pray to God, say rather: "Leave us not when
in temptation."

The power of love to cast out hatred has been a recurring theme
in Red Cloud's trance addresses. To overcome hatred in ourselves
we must try to see in others only that part of them which is God or
good.
"God is there for all who have the eyes to see Him." These are the
words with which Red Cloud began one of his inspirational
lectures, and I don’t think I can do better than to quote the words
with which this lecture ended: "You know, my children, in this day of life, the greatest aspect that you find within the jewel of your being is to see with far-seeing eyes the beauty of God's kingdom. See it in the simple flower, its folding petals, its colors rare. In the heart of that small blossom, seeking peace, God will be found.

"Stand upon the hilltop and watch the setting sun, and in your
heart be calm. Watch the blending of the colors as they fall behind
the hills, and in that quiet stillness, God will be. Stand among the
yellow of the buttercups in the open fields when the dew lies upon
the grass. Watch the bird rise with a flutter of wings, its throat
trembling in the beauty of its note. It is there God will be found. In
the laughter of a child when it runs to its mother's side; there, too,
will God be found.
"May I always find within your world the beauty of God and the
wisdom of His kingdom expressed in the one simple word - Love."

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Fri, 19 Aug 2016 #237
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

The following excerpts are from Mrs Jayakar's remarkable K biography

February 9 (1927 ) Krishnamurti wrote to Leadbeater:

"I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty that I am blending into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that he will completely fill me. I feel and I know also that my cup is nearly full to the brim and that it will overflow soon. Till then I must abide quietly and with eager patience. I long to make and will make everybody happy".

*

on September 29 (1931) , Krishnaji refers to his sorrow at Nitya’s death, his enquiry into the cause of sorrow, and a blazing awakening.

" I know, Padmabai the fight you must be putting up because we want the perfume of love through one person only, and death [darkens] our love. There will be always death as long as our understanding is limited by personal, egotistical outlook. I tell you, as long as there is consciousness of oneself there is death, loneliness and sorrow. I went through this when Nitya died and I understood what lay behind sorrow, the cause of it. I have cheated death. So, Akkaji, this is the time to understand in the midst of this sorrow and loneliness. You must understand, probe into the deepest and you will see that there is something more permanent, eternal than all persons. We all must die and while you are in the midst of this sorrow, this is the time to understand. Don’t postpone it, Akkaji. In the gloom, you must seek the way out and not wait or let sorrow eat your heart and loneliness darken your smile. So Padmabai, be eager to understand, though it hurts. Detach your mind from loneliness, sorrow and examine and you will see that by freeing your own consciousness, you go beyond birth and death. Try it dear Padmabai and don’t say these are just words.
I wish I were with you, perhaps I could be able to help you. Oh, Padmabai, you have no idea the joy of true impersonal love.

This post was last updated by John Raica Fri, 19 Aug 2016.

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Fri, 26 Aug 2016 #238
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 674 posts in this forum Offline

More 'lost and found' pages about K's 'process' from Mrs Jayakar's Memoirs

(1948)

Late at night we woke to the sound of Krishnaji’s voice calling from the veranda where he slept. His voice sounded frail, and we were bewildered and thought he was ill. After a great deal of hesitation, we went to the doorway that led to the veranda and asked him whether he was unwell. Krishnaji was calling for somebody, his voice was fragile and childlike. He kept on saying, “Krishna has gone away, when will he be back?” His eyes were open, but there was no recognition. Then he seemed to grow aware of us and asked, “Are you Rosalind?” And then, “Oh, yes, yes, he knows about you, it is all right, please sit here, wait here.” Then again after a little while, “Don’t leave the body alone and don’t be afraid.” The voice started calling for “Krishna” again. His hand would cover his mouth and he would say, “He has said not to call him.” Then in the voice of a child, “When will he be back? Will he come back soon?” This went on for a while; he would be quiet, then shout for “Krishna,” then chide himself.

After about an hour his voice became joyful. “He is back, do you see them? They are here, spotless.” His hands expressed a fullness. And then the voice changed, it was again the familiar voice of Krishnaji. He sat up, apologizing for having kept us awake. He saw us to our room and left. The strangeness of it all bewildered us (Pupul and her sister Nandini) ; we were dazed and did not sleep all night. Next morning at breakfast he looked fresh and young. We questioned him as to what had happened. He laughed and said he did not know. Could we describe what had happened? We did so. He said we would talk about it some time, which by then we had come to understand meant that he did not wish to discuss the matter further. The next day we returned to Bombay.

*

Krishnaji wrote to Nandini and me to join him in Ootacamund. We had just returned from seeing him in Madras. Looking back, it appears incomprehensible that Krishnaji did not consider for a moment whether it was possible, whether the money for the journey and stay in Ooty was forthcoming, whether Nandini could get permission to come. I was free to travel within the constraints of my not very affluent finances, but with Nandini the situation was entirely different. Her estrangement from her husband was deepening; though her husband and his family were quite wealthy, they were orthodox and very conservative. Nandini had no independent means of her own.
But it had been always so with Krishnaji. Once a necessity arose within him and was expressed, it happened And so Nandini, her children, her father-in-law, and I with my daughter Radhika arrived in Ootacamund in the third week of May. We found that Krishnaji had recovered from an illness and had grown a beard while he rested in bed. It was cold, and Krishnaji wore a long, flowing choga of natural tus wool. The large penetrating eyes, bearded face, and long robes gave him a biblical appearance.
We went with him for long walks, taking shortcuts through the pines. He walked lithely up vertical slopes and it was difficult to keep pace with him. It was the season before the rains, the forests were opaque with rising mists. We walked with Krishnamurti, entering enchanted woods where trees shrouded in rising clouds turned incandescent, as sunlight touched them, to dissolve as mists closed in. On one occasion, climbing up a steep path through the pine trees, we came on three women walking carefully downhill, balancing heavy loads of wood on their heads. Krishnaji stood to one side and watched every movement the women made as they passed him. Suddenly, one felt it—a compassion emanating from him, a tender attention and energy that wiped away the burdens of the women who passed, never knowing what made their loads lighter.

One day, on a walk through the pines, he asked me how I met people. He said, “Surely, if you want to understand them, you do not see them through your thoughts: Why aren’t you just aware of them passively, with alertness? Why are you not sensitive to them?” Later, as we were returning home, he turned to me and said with a twinkle in his eye, “Go and make friends with the trees.”

Although Krishnamurti was resting and in retreat, the news of his presence in Ootacamund had spread rapidly.
Jawaharlal Nehru, now the prime minister of India, was in Ootacamund, and I got a message from his secretary that the prime minister would like to call on Krishnamurti. Nehru asked Krishnamurti whether his teaching had changed over the years since they had last met. Krishnaji said it had, but he could not say exactly where and how.
“Tell me, sir,” he asked Krishnaji, “I wish to be clear of this confusion within me. Tell me what is right action and what is right thought.”
There was silence for over three minutes. We were discovering that the silences that surrounded Krishnaji in dialogue formed part of communication; a silence of the mind in which distances between the minds diminished so that there was direct mind-to-mind contact and communication.

Then Krishnamurti spoke slowly, “Right action is only possible when the mind is silent and there is a seeing of ‘what is.’ Action that arises from this seeing is free of motive, of the past, free of thought and cause.” Krishnaji leaned forward, his hands eloquent. He said that with the growing chaos in India and the world, man could only start the process of regeneration with himself. He had to begin anew. For the world to be saved, a few individuals had to free themselves of the factors that were corrupting and destroying the world. They had deeply to transform themselves, to think creatively and so transform further people. It was from the ashes that the new had to rise. “Like Phoenix from the ashes,” said Nehru.
“Yes,” replied Krishnaji, “for there to be life there must be death. The ancients understood this and that is why they worshipped life, love, and death.

Krishnaji then spoke of the chaos of the world being a projection of individual chaos. The human mind caught in the past, in time as thought, was a dead mind. Such a mind could not operate on chaos, could only add to the confusion. Man had to free himself from time as becoming, the projection into the tomorrow. He had to act in the “now” and so transform himself.

Toward the end of May certain incidents occurred which cast light on the secret mystical life of Krishnamurti.

The incidents at Ooty extended over a period of three weeks, from around May 28 or 29 1948 to June 20. They took place in Krishnaji’s room at Sedgemoor. My sister Nandini and I were present.

It began on an evening when Krishnaji had been for a walk with us. He started to say that he was not feeling well, and could we go home. When we asked whether he wanted to see a doctor, he said, “No, it is not that.” He would not explain further. When we got home he went to his room, telling Friedman that on no account was he to be disturbed; but he asked Nandini and me to come into the room. He closed the door and then told us not to be afraid, whatever happened, and on no account to call a doctor. He asked us both to sit quietly and watch him. There was to be no fear. We were not to speak to him, not to revive him, but to close his mouth if he fainted. On no account were we to leave the body alone.

Krishnaji appeared to be in extreme pain. He complained of severe toothache and an intense pain at the nape of the neck, the crown of the head, and in the spine.
In the midst of the pain he would say, “They are cleansing the brain, oh, so completely, emptying it.” At other times he would complain of great heat, and his body would perspire profusely. The intensity of the pain varied as did the area where it was concentrated. At times the pain was located in the head, in the tooth, the nape of the neck, or the spine. At other times he groaned and held his stomach. Nothing relieved the pain; it came and went at will.

When the 'process' was operating, the body lying on the bed appeared a shell; only a body consciousness appeared to be present. In this state the voice was frail, childlike. Then suddenly the body filled with a soaring presence. Krishnaji would sit up cross-legged, his eyes closed, the fragile body would appear to grow and his presence would fill the room; there was a palpable, throbbing silence and an immense strength that poured into the room and enveloped us. In this state the voice had great volume and depth.

After the first evening he started going for a walk alone in the evenings and used to ask Nandini and me to come later to the house. In the beginning the experiences started at 6 P.M. and were over by 8:30 P.M., but later they sometimes went on until midnight. On one occasion he asked Nandini to hold his hand, as otherwise he would "slip away" and not come back.

May 30, 1948: Krishnamurti was getting ready to go for a walk when suddenly he said he was feeling too weak and 'not all there'. He said, “What a pain I have.” He caught the back of his head and lay down. Within a few minutes the Krishnaji we knew was not there. For two hours we saw him go through intense pain. He said he had a pain in the back of his neck, his tooth was troubling him, his stomach was swollen and hard, and he groaned and pressed down. At times he would shout. He fainted a number of times. When he came to, the first time, he said, “Close my mouth when I faint.”

He kept on saying: “Amma—oh, God, give me peace. I know what they are up to. Call him back. I know when the limit of pain is reached, they will return. They know how much the body can stand. If I become a lunatic, look after me—not that I will become a lunatic. They are very careful with the body. I feel so old. Only a bit of me is functioning. I am like an India rubber toy, which a child plays with. It is the child that gives it life.”

After two hours, he fainted again. When he came to, he said: “The pain has disappeared. Deep inside me I know what has happened. I have been soaked with gasoline. The tank is full.”
He then said he would speak so that he would not think of the pain inside him. “Have you seen the sun and the soft clouds heavy with rain? They pass over the sun and then the rain comes down with a roar on the earth that waits like an open womb. It washes clean. Every flower, every leaf. There is fragrance, a newness. Then the clouds pass and the sun comes out and touches every leaf and every flower. The gentle little flower that is like a young girl that ruthless men destroy. Have you seen the faces of rich men? Hard busy with their stocks and money-making? What do they know of love? Have you ever felt every limb of a tree, touched a leaf, sat by a ragged child? You know when I drove to the aerodrome, I saw a mother washing the buttocks of a child. It was beautiful. Nobody noticed her. All they know is to make money and cesspools of their women. Love to them is sex. To hold a woman’s hand, when she is not a woman, that is love. Do you know what it is to love? You have husbands and children. But how would you know? You cannot hold a cloud in a golden cage.”

He was silent for a time, then said, “This pain (of the 'process') makes my body like steel—but, oh, so flexible, so pliant, without a thought. It is like a polishing—an examination.” We enquired whether he couldn’t stop having the pain. He said: “You have had a child. Can you stop it coming when once it starts?” Then: “They are going to have fun with me tonight. I see the storm gathering. Oh, Christos!”
After some time, Maurice brought in some soup and then went out. Krishnaji had the light put on. He had sat up with the legs crossed, body erect. The pain had gone from his face. His eyes were closed. He seemed to grow. We felt tremendous power pour into him. There was a throbbing in the atmosphere. It filled the room. Our eyes and ears were filled with it and with sound, though there was no sound; and every pore of our bodies felt a touch, but there was nothing in the room. Then he opened his eyes and said: “Something happened—did you see anything?” We told him what we had felt. He said: “My face will be different tomorrow.” He lay down and his hand went out in a gesture of fullness. He said, “I will be like a raindrop—spotless.” After a few minutes, he told us he was all right and that we should go home.

June 17, 1948: Krishnaji went out for a walk alone. He asked Nandini and me to wait for him. We sat by the fire and waited. He entered the room as if he were a stranger. He went straight to his table and wrote something in his file. After some time he grew aware of us. He came and sat down near the fire. He asked us what we had been doing and said that he had walked far beyond the Golf Club. There was a flute being played in the distance and he sat silently, listening to it intently. It was only after it stopped that he appeared in that semiconscious state. Twice while we sat there, that tremendous 'presence' filled him. He grew in stature before us. His eyes were half-closed; his face silent and immensely beautiful.

And then he lay on the bed and there was just the body. The voice that came from it was that of a frail child. The Krishnaji we knew was not there. The body of Krishnamurti started saying that he was very hurt inside, that they had burnt him inside; that there was a pain right through his head. He was shivering and started saying that something had happened on the walk. He turned to us and asked, “Did you see him return?” He could not synchronize his body and mind. At time he felt he was still in the woods. “They came and covered him with leaves.”
He said, “Do you know, you would not have seen him tomorrow. He nearly did not return.” He kept on feeling his body to see if it was all there. He said, “I must go back and find out what had happened on the walk. Something happened and they rushed back. But, I do not know whether I returned? There may be pieces of me lying on the road.” Twice he got out of bed and made for the door, but lay down again. Later, he went to sleep. When he awoke, he felt himself and stared at his hands.

June 18, 1948: Krishnaji asked us to come at about seven in the evening. He was out. We waited. He came in some time later. He was again the "stranger". He wrote something in the book and then came and sat with us. He said: “Thoughts of my talk in Bangalore are pouring in. I am awake again.” He closed his eyes and sat for some time erect, silent. Then he complained of hurt and went and lay down. He said he felt he was burnt. He was crying. “Do you know, I found out what happened on the walk. 'He' came fully and took complete charge. That is why I did not know whether I had returned. I knew nothing.” A little later, “Then in the emptiness, there was a light and a storm and I was tortured that day in the wind. Do you know that emptiness that has no horizon—no limit—it stretches?” His hand moved to show empty space.
Then a little later:
“They have burnt me so that there can be more emptiness. They want to see how much of Him can come.

Then later: “Do you know emptiness? When there is not a thought? When it is completely empty? But, how could you know? It is this emptiness that brings pure power—like that in a dynamo. You know, on the walk I was in an ecstasy. I have never cried like that. As I walked I met a poor man. He saw me crying and thought I had lost a mother or sister. Then he smiled at me and I could not understand.” Suddenly, he said, “I have a thought—time and emptiness—that’s it. I hope I remember when I wake up.”

He started saying that he could not bear it, that he was all burnt inside, hurt. Then suddenly he sat up and said, “Don’t move,” and again we saw him like the other night. His face was in the dark, but the fire leapt up and his shadow lengthened on the wall. All pain had disappeared from the face. His eyes were closed, his body was throbbing, as if some power was entering his body. His face was pulsating. He appeared to grow and fill the room. He sat without movement for about three minutes and then he fainted. He woke up calm and peaceful.

Although the notes we took on the final night are lost, Nandini and I remember the occasion vividly:

Krishnaji had been suffering excruciating pain in his head and neck, his stomach was swollen, tears streamed down his face. He suddenly fell back on the bed and became intensely still. The traces of pain and fatigue were wiped away, as happens in death. Then life and an immensity began to enter the face. The face was greatly beautiful. It had no age, time had not touched it. The eyes opened, but there was no recognition. The body radiated light; a stillness and a vastness illumined the face. The silence was liquid and heavy, like honey; it poured into the room and into our minds and bodies, filling every cell of the brain, wiping away every trace of time and memory. We felt a touch without a presence, a wind blowing without movement. We could not help folding our hands in pranams. For some minutes he lay unmoving, then his eyes opened. After some time, he saw us and said, “Did you see that face?” He did not expect an answer. He lay silently. Then, “The Buddha was here, you are blessed.”

We went back to the hotel, and the silence came with us and enclosed us for the next few days. We were held by a pervading presence. Most of the time we were in the room with Krishnaji, we had no part to play; yet our presence seemed necessary. There was nothing personal in him during the incidents—no emotion, no relationship to us. The ordeal appeared physical, and yet the next day left no trace on his face or body. He was aflame with energy—joyous, eager, and youthful. Not a word he said had psychological overtones. A weight, depth, and strength was present in the silence that permeated the room and the atmosphere on every occasion. When Nandini and I compared notes later, we found that we had both had identical experiences.

When Nandini and I left Ootacamund, Krishnamurti asked us to “go to Bombay and rest. You have gone through a great ordeal.”
In one of his letters to me, K later referred briefly to what had happened. I had asked him one morning what was the reason for the two voices—that of the frail child and the normal voice of Krishnamurti. I said that it looked as if some entity
goes out of the body and some entity reenters the body. Krishnamurti said in his letter, “This is not so. It is not that there are two entities.” He said he would talk about it later; but it was to be many years before he spoke of it again.

This post was last updated by John Raica Sat, 27 Aug 2016.

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Sat, 27 Aug 2016 #239
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Then Krishnamurti spoke slowly, “Right action is only possible when the mind is silent and there is a seeing of ‘what is.’ Action that arises from this seeing is free of motive, of the past, free of thought and cause.” Krishnaji leaned forward, his hands eloquent. He said that with the growing chaos in India and the world, man could only start the process of regeneration with himself. He had to begin anew. For the world to be saved, a few individuals had to free themselves of the factors that were corrupting and destroying the world. They had deeply to transform themselves, to think creatively and so transform further people. It was from the ashes that the new had to rise. “Like Phoenix from the ashes,” said Nehru.
“Yes,” replied Krishnaji, “for there to be life there must be death. The ancients understood this and that is why they worshiped life, love, and death.”

Krishnaji then spoke of the chaos of the world being a projection of individual chaos. The human mind caught in the past, in time as thought, was a dead mind. Such a mind could not operate on chaos, could only add to the confusion. Man had to free himself from time as becoming, the projection into the tomorrow. He had to act in the “now” and so transform himself.

good morning John....

Regeneration says k so we are degenerated, that is my general feeling....that is what, out of many other points like so called competition hiding a theoretical analytical elimination at first, and so on, I develop on some other web sites, where more economical and political conflicts, of course conflicts, are going on..

You brought here not so long ago k mentioning the crisis still on 70 years after which is one of those you very rarely see...

death and life are one movement like suffering is me and me is suffering, like the observer is the observed etc it applies everywhere.with or without thought , but for us with thought deformation of ...well ?? the real ??

He speaks of the ancient..and recently I came across a French guy Jacques Grimault mentioning a lot the ancient and their culture too,more at a practical level yet implying many vital differences at the mental levels too..those really behind the pyramids and much more...Interesting subject, well for me very....interesting..Again as I suspected our history is quite false, the bargained one sold in schools..and colleges..the lack of spontaneous curiosity makes that cheated "story" work ...

As you mention often sometimes k uses mind in one sense and sometimes in another sense..this is clearly a problem as you know it well..

indirectly for me like for you I think, he is mentioning the freedom from the dictatorship of the analytical process , so of thought...

acting in the now etc yes....but what is one first step ??

Dan ...........

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Sat, 27 Aug 2016 #240
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Then a little later: “They have burnt me so that there can be more emptiness. They want to see how much of him can come.”

don't we see again like in such description a sort of "presence", someone unknown "working on k's ...brain-mind ?..this suggests that there would be some "persons" , somewhere, different of us, working on some of us ?? this reminds me like for some , something...at a tiny scale but same sort of "stuff"...back to some ancient culture ,those may have left some relics in some despised culture here and there..I am sure of it now.

So would not have we lost so much of what we are ?? that will be even a greater disaster than what in this case, I and some think ...

the regression would be even worse I mean..giving weight to the stolen myth of Adam and Eve and much more, not to be taken literary ( au pied de la lettre) of course but in its second degree form...that we lost something due to knowledge..= to thought....a theme I develop on one political web site...that would interest many people in fact

John Raica wrote:
Do you know emptiness? When there is not a thought?

again , thought is the hindrance....??

John Raica wrote:
In one of his letters to me, K later referred briefly to what had happened. I had asked him one morning what was the reason for the two voices—that of the frail child and the normal voice of Krishnamurti. I said that it looked as if some entity
goes out of the body and some entity reenters the body. Krishnamurti said in his letter, “This is not so. It is not that there are two entities.” He said he would talk about it later; but it was to be many years before he spoke of it again.

Well I am waiting :-)

thanks...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 27 Aug 2016.

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