Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Pages from the Book of Life


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Sun, 14 Feb 2016 #121
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K.' I am surrounded here (in California) by people who haven't the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about'

That's quite a statement... and he was surrounded (and visited by) some very 'brainy' people. For myself, I have gone back to an early statement he made to some school children regarding 'meditation' as well as later statements: Follow the thought, the thinking...but not as 'you the observer' of the thought, but to see if the thought could be aware of itself, awaken to itself etc. This 'meditation' when it occurs brings thought out of the 'shadows', out of the shadow of the 'thinker' and allows it to be 'alone' by itself...without the 'central image' of a thinker, a 'me' that it 'ordinarily' revolves around; a 'me' who is 'having' these thoughts. Unless this dynamic of a 'thinker apart from the 'thought' process is seen through by an 'awakening' of thought itself, or the brain (through meditation?) sees the 'thinker' as an illusion, the 'self' will continue to be strenghtened and things will continue as they are...the process of 'becoming' will continue.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 14 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #122
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
there's a major systemic 'bug' in our brain's Op Sys: the main priority is assigned by default to our 'self-interest'.

That seems to be the case alright.

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Mon, 15 Feb 2016 #123
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And also there's very little authentic cooperation in the direction of a radical inner change: the inner change is approached with an accumulative attitude rather than as a learning process. And of course, K's 'absolute' language did not help too much either...

Agreed. Thinking about K.s 'dilemma' though,in imparting to us what he saw our situation to be, any incremental 'approach' to 'Freedom' was just 'more of the same', reaching for another image, as you put it: our inescapable, inevitable "accumulative attitude" kicks in at every turn. But...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 15 Feb 2016.

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Tue, 23 Feb 2016 #124
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 702 posts in this forum Offline

Talking about 'lost and found' pages from the Book of Life, here is the interesting record of a personal "out of the body" experience read by Sir Auckland Geddes in 1937 to the Members of the Royal Medical Society, UK. Some similarities with some K remarks about the 'Stream of Time' ?

On Saturday, November 9th, a few minutes after midnight, I began to feel very ill, and by 2 o'clock was definitely suffering from acute gastroenteritis. I wanted to ring for assistance, but found I could not, and so quite placidly gave up the attempt. Suddenly I realized that my consciousness was separating from another consciousness, which was also me. These for purposes of description we could call the A and B consciousness, and throughout what follows the ego attached itself to the A consciousness. The B personality I recognized as belonging to the body, and as my physical condition grew worse and the heart was fibrillating rather than beating, I realized that the B consciousness belonging to the body was beginning to show signs of becoming composite, that is, built up of "consciousness" from the head, the heart, the viscera, &c. These components became more individual, and the B consciousness began to disintegrate, while the A consciousness which was now me, seemed to be altogether outside my body, which it could see. Gradually I realized that I could see not only my body and the bed in which it was, but everything in the whole house and garden, and then I realized that I was seeing not only "things" at home, but in London and in Scotland, in fact wherever my attention was directed it seemed to me; and the explanation which I received, was that I was free in a 'time' dimension of space, wherein "now" was in some way equivalent to "here" in the ordinary threedimensional space of everyday life. I next realized that my vision included not only "things" in the ordinary three-dimensional world, but also "things" in these fourth dimensional places that I was in.

From now on the description is entirely metaphorical, because there are no words which really describe what I saw, or rather appreciated. Although I had no body, I had what appeared to be perfect two-eyed vision, and what I saw can only be described in this way, that I was conscious of a "psychic stream" flowing with life through time, and it seemed to have a particularly intense iridescence. I 'understood' that our brains are just end organs projecting as it were from the three-dimensional universe into the psychic stream, and flowing with it into the fourth dimensions. Around each brain there seemed to be what I can only describe in ordinary words as a 'condensation' of the psychic stream, which formed in each case as though it were a cloud; only it was not a cloud. While I was just appreciating this, the ( inner) voice who was conveying information to me explained that the fourth dimension was ( implicit ?) in everything existing in the three-dimensional space, and at the same time everything in the three-dimensional space existed in the fourth dimension, and I quite clearly understood how "now" in the fourth-dimensional universe was just the same to all intents and purposes as "here" in a three-dimensional universe—that is to say a four-dimensional (4-th dimension of our ?) being was everywhere in the "now" just as one is "everywhere" in the "here" in a three-dimensional view of things. I then realized that I myself was a "condensation", as it were, in the psychic stream, a sort of cloud that was not a cloud, and the visual impression I had of myself was blue.

Gradually I began to recognize people, and I saw the psychic condensation attached to A, B, C, D, E, F, and to quite a number of men that I knew. In addition I saw quite a number of people that I know had very little psychic condensation at all attached to them. Each of these condensations varied from all others in bulk, sharpness of outline, and apparent solidity. Just as I was beginning to grasp all these I saw "A" enter my bedroom; I realized she got a terrible shock, and I saw her hurry to the telephone; I saw my doctor leave his patients and come very quickly, and heard him say, or saw him think, "He is nearly gone." I heard him quite clearly speaking to me on the bed, but I was not in touch with the body, and could not answer him. I was really cross when he took a syringe and rapidly injected my body with something which I afterwards learned was camphor. As the heart began to beat more strongly, I was drawn back, and I was intensely annoyed, because I was so interested, and just beginning to understand where I was and what I was "seeing." I came back into the body really angry at being pulled back, and once I was back all the clarity of vision of anything and everything disappeared, and I was just possessed of a glimmer of consciousness which was suffused with pain. It is surprising to note that this dream, vision, or experience has shown no tendency to fade like a dream would fade, nor has it shown any tendency to 'rationalize' itself as a dream would do. I think that the whole thing simply means that but for medical treatment of a peculiarly prompt and vigorous kind, I was dead to the three-dimensional universe. If this is so, and if, in fact, the experience of liberation of consciousness in the fourth-dimensional universe is not imagination, it is a most important matter to place on record.

Thus ended the record: what are we to make of it? Of one thing only can we be quite sure. It is not fake. Without certainty of this I should not have brought it to your notice. But, was it a dream, or does it record a symbolic vision of one aspect of reality translated into adequate words? I do not know. Whichever or whatever it was it provides us with a scheme that helps to make "picturable" to our minds things otherwise difficult to grasp. First it has helped me to define the idea of a psychic continuum spread out in time like a plasmic net. It does more; it provides a comprehensible background for the soul paleontology of Jung, and it seems to throw a flood of light on the meaning of soul abysses discovered by the method of Freud. It brings all the parapsychic manifestations into the domain of the picturable. It also provides a rational seeming background for such ideas of the 'group soul' and such a conception as the 'psychic atmosphere'. But, most important, it makes the idea of the lifelong unity of body and soul (mind ?) much simpler to grasp. Of course, I do not imagine there is a visible 'psychic stream', but I do quite definitely believe that the record I have read presents in words one aspect of Man's complicated being and relationships, as these were symbolized in the mind of a man at the point of death. There is one more important point that we must notice: there is absolutely nothing in the record which is 'metaphysical'. The whole adventure, if such it were, took place on the plane of nature. It is thus to be sharply distinguished from the records of the spiritual adventures of the mystics.

Beyond the scientific knowledge of man lay an
incompletely explored area in which important things
happened without discoverable physical cause. They had
all become so sure that science was the only door to
knowledge that they tended to ignore the older ways of approach. If they could re-awaken the sense of untrammelled wonder, which in the days of the Renaissance gave birth to science itself, they should make fresh starts along new lines; but for the time being, and for a little longer, science was queen of the mind. The brilliant record and achievement of science showed how rich had been the prize won for each of them by disciplined curiosity, but that must not obscure from them the fact that to-day science was running into blind alleys from which it could only emerge by escaping from direct touch with human understanding. They could not grasp man as a whole. This did not mean that it was impossible to improve their understanding. On the contrary, once they had ceased to fear what seemed to them nonrational, and recognized that human reason could not grasp all reality, they could get to know a lot about him. The body-soul of a man was only the house in which his real self lived. Man was also a spirit, and this spirit in some way had become a partner in the body-soul, making the
diagrammatic formula of man, body-soul-spirit."

This post was last updated by John Raica Tue, 23 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 23 Mar 2016 #125
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Dan Mcdermott in post 290 in a quote of something K said:

"This 'meditation' when it occurs brings thought out of the 'shadows', out of the shadow of the 'thinker' and allows it to be 'alone' by itself...without the 'central image' of a thinker, a 'me' that it 'ordinarily' revolves around; a 'me' who is 'having' these thoughts." (peters bold)

This statement may be seen as pointing to the fact that the 'me'...the 'you'....isn't having the thoughts. These thoughts are only mechanical activity in the brain. These thoughts, including the thought that there is a me, are being watched by what we actually are.... a seer that is empty of any atributes including a history.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Wed, 23 Mar 2016.

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Wed, 23 Mar 2016 #126
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Peter,

This was my experience at that time (not a quote of K.'s) and the words still ring true:

This 'meditation' when it occurs brings thought out of the 'shadows', out of the shadow of the 'thinker' and allows it to be 'alone' by itself...without the 'central image' of a thinker, a 'me' that it 'ordinarily' revolves around; a 'me' who is 'having' these thoughts. Unless this dynamic of a 'thinker apart from the 'thought' process is seen through by an 'awakening' of thought itself, or the brain (through meditation?) sees the 'thinker' as an illusion, the 'self' will continue to be strenghtened and things will continue as they are...the process of 'becoming' will continue.

I think it shows the necessity for 'meditation'; to know the 'self' so totally that the "movement beyond thought and feeling" can possibly be revealed. This would be a 'new' consciousness.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 23 Mar 2016.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #127
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

I don't use this word meditation. There's always a big mess there.

That movement beyond thought and feeling is always there. The discovery of all of the aspects and nuances the content of the false self is an ongoing process. The movement of that, is as outside of the light in one that is the true "self".... what one actually is....as is the weather. One watches it and seeing puts things there, more and more in order. It is on going, never ending discovery. In a way like science.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 24 Mar 2016.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #128
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 702 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
These thoughts are only mechanical activity in the brain

Hi, Peter, I hope I'm not intruding in your fine conversation, but there is something closely related to this topic in the Ojai 1983 Q&A meeting, just posted today in the 'What are the K Teachings' thread.

My personal understanding is that yes, thought is appearing to be a 'mechanical' activity but there's a deeper active element of 'personal safety' involved: rather than frontally receiving the impact of the direct challenges of life we prefer to function inwardly in a 'safe-mode' where the central, controlling part - aka the 'thinker'- is taking a personal distance from dealing directly with facts and is working through a 'buffering' intellectual interface. Probably mankind has worked at this for millenia (with rather mixed results ) but at the present point in our evolution it seems that we got stuck. Some do acknowledge it as a fact that has to be seriously dealt with here and now, while others 'chose to ignore' it and implicitly leave the responsability of solving it for the next generations

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #129
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
It's only when there is contradiction (a conflict of desire ?) , which is division, there must be effort. So to find out whether it's possible to live a life without a single shadow of ( inward ) effort, or contradiction, one must investigate this whole (dualistic ?) movement of thought. So to find out what's the activity of thought, to watch (non-dualistically ?) it - that's part of 'meditation'.

It seems 'desire' is at work behind the scenes. When I look out on a scene say in nature, I can 'intellectually' understand that 'something' is coming between what is out there and my relation to it. The "structure of words" perhaps as he puts it. So thought asks, what would be different if I had a 'direct perception' of this scene. Would there be a'beauty' different than the one being experienced, would there be a freshness that is missing here? That,it seems is the subtle movement of 'desire'; wishing for 'more', wanting the experience to be other than it is, wanting the 'real' beauty K. speaks about, instead of the fact of 'what is' in front of me, and in me...

Why do you all think that K. put so much importance in his question: "Can thought be aware of itself?"

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #130
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 12 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When I look out on a scene say in nature, I can 'intellectually' understand that 'something' is coming between what is out there and my relation to it.

It is more than intellectual, it is a feeling -- and that feeling is awareness and understanding. There is something between, and that something is the "I," whose intellect never understands anything. It is sensing -- feeling, seeing, hearing and whatever else -- that is understanding.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 24 Mar 2016.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #131
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 12 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
I don't use this word meditation. There's always a big mess there.

Yes. Probably meditation is nothing more than paying attention.
All the methods aimed at bringing about meditation (attention) of course are not meditation itself.

max

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #132
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Here's what came into the mind just now:

First, it is dificult to talk to many people at the same time.

Second why do you all make things so complicated.

But what really came first: Stop thinking there's something wrong with you!

Forgive me if i am speaking too...can find the word.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #133
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

John, thank you for posting all of these K talks. Very big thank you.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #134
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

John and Max and Dan (though i think Dan has already)

View the film on youtube titled Human the movie all three parts.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 24 Mar 2016.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #135
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

John,

"My personal understanding is that yes, thought is appearing to be a 'mechanical' activity but there's a deeper active element of 'personal safety' involved: rather than frontally receiving the impact of the direct challenges of life we prefer to function inwardly in a 'safe-mode' where the central, controlling part - aka the 'thinker'- is taking a personal distance from dealing directly with facts and is working through a 'buffering' intellectual interface. Probably mankind has worked at this for millenia (with rather mixed results ) but at the present point in our evolution it seems that we got stuck. Some do acknowledge it as a fact that has to be seriously dealt with here and now, while others 'chose to ignore' it and implicitly leave the responsability of solving it for the next generations"

Not appearing to be, it is mechanical.

The " deeper active element" is also mechanical, so is " the central controling part. The only thing that is not mechanical is more inward, the empty seer that is not person, that is not the you or the I.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 24 Mar 2016.

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Thu, 24 Mar 2016 #136
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
My personal understanding is that yes, thought is appearing to be a 'mechanical' activity but there's a deeper active element of 'personal safety' involved: rather than frontally receiving the impact of the direct challenges of life we prefer to function inwardly in a 'safe-mode' where the central, controlling part - aka the 'thinker'- is taking a personal distance from dealing directly with facts and is working through a 'buffering' intellectual interface.

John or anyone, do you see a correlation here with this example of 'different levels of consciousness' in the brain: I was walking in the woods yesterday and at one point my leg stopped in mid-air; what 'I' had taken to be just another shadow was actually a large black snake across my path. A 'deeper' more conscious part that was more alert to possible danger, stopped the body in its tracks, while 'I' (a less conscious part?) would have stepped right on that snake. Through 'my' eyes, I saw only a shadow, but 'my' brain knew before 'I' did, that it was a snake.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 24 Mar 2016.

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Tue, 19 Apr 2016 #137
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The subconscious is memory’s storehouse. I think that a better term for subconscious would be "super-conscious"; for 'sub' suggests that which is under, a subservient mind, which it is not. It is the more powerful of the two. I would rather speak of it as the "over mind", and not the "under mind."

Well John, this fits what I somehow know to some extend only , matter of experience here.

At the level of the earth it is the ones "which" are behind the curtain, the real people leading the flock to serve them. The self elected people.

the correspondence between one brain-mind and the all of humanity so often struck me..

In time of the revealing of some parts of this "super-conscious", for me so far by letting sorrow be ,rightly as it has to be, this is where some unpredictable learning can already start is what I know..the superficial mind cannot do much at all..

here we have a global " organic machine" which contains parts...the part which decides to take control does not know about this global nature, sure to be The One....

the machine has a bug since ages..for me not for all from our start as what we are....and it is presently dangerously increasing...

For myself I very well sense that this super conscious is the one leading as this signal I get is clearly from it, I must find ways for it to reveal more and more of itself...I well may be stuck here for good up to my last day or not, I do not know....

again sorrow-pain-discontentment is the catalyst for that....because this basically is the state of this super-conscious ...that is my main "work" for now..

thanks for having found that, I missed that one from K in my rather intense and global research about all what he mentioned about this unconscious, superconscious..

this emphasis on "I" and for myself etc etc is on purpose to signify that what is said is relative to my own experience....if it has a wider value which is possible or not, then anyone can get it and more for himself so...

The free sharing of that as well as what are all the known means to grow a proper veg garden and so on ad libitum must be...

the natural and spontaneous sharing is part of the missing togetherness (included with oneself of course) we should be surrounded by..

it is the only way...obviously not ours.

Despite that, the "way remains" the same ....the outer is insane because we globally are of course..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 19 Apr 2016.

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Tue, 19 Apr 2016 #138
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And he answered- again, holistically' that there is "this vast pool of knowledge of mankind" and (conveniently enough ...) it can be 'tapped into' and on the spot you can exchange with the finest brains of the world

this pool seems to be a fact...one half dead serious and half just serious comment, because competition is all over the place, it is a blind belief , hiding in fact a process of elimination ( I clearly see that since some of the analytical has revealed itself , we would be supposed to have the best everywhere and all the time...this assertion is wrong, this belief is simply wrong, this is not the way it works...in the globality of the universe , for me...

I started understanding that when working as a simple worker in a factory, that was fine between us because there was a sort of togetherness, helping, between most people...but the point is that I noticed that when a big huge machine was having troubles and was not functioning, the big head( the man with an office and a chair was usually not able to fix it in the detail at all), it was so the job of far less specialised workers, and I noticed that most had very different ways to fix the machine....in all cases all problems were solved.....

after a while you would not see any big head around....the less they were coming to the production quarters the better people would be working...because there is a natural something x between us, and when no big head is around, after a while things work fine...

no hierarchy there is in the Universe...only man is caught in this deadly process..

my point being...why care about the so called finest brain,what is meant here is good at maths and those sort of things and good memory to end up a lawyer to cheat better others as they are the winners of their self organised competition by themselves ,so it is elimination , as when I deeply and widely in all directions in what state they and we by accepting their games hoping to win, have put the earth , it is a disaster !! yet many won't see that.of course when you see nothing at all :-(

John Raica wrote:
So, "teaching & preaching" - wise, K was abilitated to speak almost exclusively about the human mind and brain as it is presently (namely, self-centred, fragmented, full of programming 'bugs', etc). Possibly because his immediate goal was to form a solid 'elite' of self-knowledgeable people- like a nuclear 'critical mass' who in turn will...change the ( self-destructive) course of our global consciousness. Well, it proved to be far easier said than done. My personal feeling is that if we restrict it all to 'self-knowing' and deleting the 'egotic-residues' we might be missing the universal dimension of our own existence..

now back to the core of your point and mine by the way..Possibly this critical mass affair was one of his immediate goal yes ?? , I have a deep feeling for this critical mass point. He said somewhere that the talks were not his priority or main concern ( would you remember where it was? )

Self knowing for me is a side effect in what I know, so is the deleting of egotistic residues or rather for me of unsolved hidden problems .....

side effect of what? side effect means that it is there without searching for..

sorrow-dukkah

the great danger of sorrow-dukkha is to drown into it when attempting to escape from it and be destroyed and-or destroying others under the unbearable pain it gives into ones life ,

another great danger is to try to use it for something, it will give the same result...

only the third , if never lived), theoretical path not mentioned here seems to be right to me....that would give water to the Buddha's "middle path"...which is fact would be the third path like the third eye in my view..

As to the universal dimension of our existence it starts with small things right where we are, like natural friendly cooperation having the sense of others as well as of oneself within the group, sharing, helping, knowing when to say no, to refuse etc etc etc all those being too side effects of having solved even a little of one's sorrow...beyond that well......!!!! mais cela ne se trouve pas sous les sabots d'un cheval...

such a person already will refuse to go to war, some did that in the first world war in the French army, they were just executed......such a person refuses to exploit whatever the consequences are etc....the critical mass is far away but , you never know....a global insight could help one of those days ??

Apres tout sur ce chemin seul l'imprevu arrive ....

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 19 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #139
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
In fact I had a quite shattering personal experience: the very night K died (Feb 16, 1986) I had this strange 'dream' with a huge ball of light which explodes after coming close to earth, and it was so 'real' that I got the scare of my life- literally- But to my surprise the rays resulting from the explosion were going through everything- including myself- and it was not 'good' nor 'bad'- just a very penetrating light- like the 'neutrinos'- they can practically go through the globe without any difficulty

Hello John...

such moment is very interesting. First of all anything frightening in dreams then called nightmares had been most revealing when they are not escaped, as to this specific one, well no doubt for me that it contains "something". The fact that it as not good not bad for me indicates a clear message that you got..

Has it come back under some other form but kind of similar after that?

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

the critical mass is far away but , you never know....a global insight could help one of those days ??

In one's own life, most certainly. As for the whole planet it's hard to tell since even if there are many people of good will, the collective consciousness has a lot of 'temptations' even for them. I guess it was Oscar Wilde who said " I can resist anything...except temptation"

Temptation yes...it brings us back to desire as a part of the program of thought, as a necessity for the analytical process to work like self pride is, this is only good when analysing, it has the purpose to theoretically make us do-achieve good practical things; at their root they are parts of the global program as incentives to make the analytical program work is what I clearly see, no desire and no self contentment= no analysing....but the system goes wrong etc etc..back to square one...

the analyser can only go that way...without missing processes good luck to everyone in this global fight..the 67 families possessing 50% of earth wealth must be thrilled with us..see John perkins work or here and here etc bien sur...

The deadly thing is that it is the mass who created such a monstrous society...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #140
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

As it come back under some other form but kind of similar after that?

Not on the similar level of intensity . But I'd say that there's some (anonymous) 'follow up' every now and then

Would you mind to expand on the content of that, if in the mood and if you think it is worthy, like what is your "impression" now ..you have triggered my curiosity here with this.. thanks..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #141
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 702 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
expand on the content of that, if in the mood and if you think it is worthy, like what is your "impression" now ..you have triggered my curiosity here with this.. thanks..

Nothing big, Dan, but every once in a while some 'no name' psy-entities seem to check up with you- but this being said such experiences are so close to being purely 'subjective'... But for your curiosity's benefit I'll try to copy-paste a few of K's more 'documented' psy-events. Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

It was a short operation and not worth talking about, though there was considerable pain. While the pain continued I saw or discovered that the body was almost floating in the air. It may have been an illusion, some kind of hallucination, but a few minutes later there was the personification—not a person—but the personification of death. Watching this peculiar phenomenon between the body and death, there seemed to be a sort of dialogue between them. Death seemed to be talking to the body with great insistence and the body reluctantly was not yielding to what death wanted. Though there were people in the room this phenomenon went on, death inviting, the body refusing.

It was not a fear of death making the body deny the demands of death but the body realised that it was not responsible for itself, there was another entity that was dominating, much stronger, more vital than death itself. Death was more and more demanding, insisting and so the other interfered. Then there was a conversation or a dialogue between not only the body, but this other and death. So there were three entities in conversation. He had warned, before he went to the hospital, that there might be a disassociation with the body and so death might intervene. Though the person [Mary] was sitting there and a nurse came and went, it was not a self-deception or kind of hallucination. Lying in the bed he saw the clouds full of rain and the window lighted up, the town below stretching for miles. There was spattering of rain on the window pane and he saw clearly the saline solution dripping, drop by drop, into the organism. One felt very strongly and clearly that if the other had not interfered death would have won.

This dialogue began in words with thought operating very clearly. There was thunder and lightning and the conversation went on. Since there was no fear at all, neither on the part of the body or the other—absolutely no fear—one could converse freely and profoundly. It is always difficult to put a conversation of that kind into words. Strangely, as there was no fear, death was not enchaining the mind to the things of the past. What came out of the conversation was very clear. The body was in considerable pain and not apprehensive or anxious and the other was discernibly beyond both. It was as though the other was acting as an umpire in a dangerous game of which the body was not fully aware. Death seemed to be always present but death cannot be invited. That would be suicide which would be utterly foolish.

During this conversation there was no sense of time. Probably the whole dialogue lasted about an hour and time by the watch did not exist. Words ceased to exist but there was an immediate insight into what each one was saying. Of course if one is attached to anything— ideas, beliefs, property or person, death would not come to have a conversation with you. Death in the sense of ending is absolute freedom. The quality of conversation was urbane. There was nothing whatsoever of sentiment, emotional extravagance, no distortion of the absolute fact of time coming to an end and the vastness without any border when death is part of your daily life. There was a feeling that the body would go on for many years but death and the other would always be together until the organism could no longer be active. There was a great sense of humour amongst the three of them and one could almost hear the laughter. And the beauty of it was with the clouds and the rain. The sound of this conversation was expanding endlessly and the sound was the same at the beginning and was without end. It was a song without a beginning or an end. Death and life are very close together, like love and death. As love is not a remembrance, so death had no past. Fear never entered this conversation for fear is darkness and death is light. This dialogue was not illusory or fanciful. It was like a whisper in the wind but the whisper was very clear and if you listened you could hear it; you could then be part of it. Then we would share it together. But you won’t listen to it as you are too identified with your own body, your own thoughts and your own direction. One must abandon all this to enter into the light and love of death.

This post was last updated by John Raica Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Wed, 20 Apr 2016 #142
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 132 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K.: Fear never entered this conversation for fear is darkness and death is light. This dialogue was not illusory or fanciful. It was like a whisper in the wind but the whisper was very clear and if you listened you could hear it; you could then be part of it. Then we would share it together. But you won’t listen to it as you are too identified with your own body, your own thoughts and your own direction. One must abandon all this to enter into the light and love of death.

I remember reading what you posted above with a great interest a long while ago. And it's good to see it again because while one can't make a judgement on whether this actually was or was not anything more than a hallucination, it still reminds that there are probably factors involved with our life and our death here, that are beyond our powers of reason.

You could say that we've been given the power of the 'gods' here and until we understand what we have been given,it will keep tearing us apart...he lays it out very clearly; as long as we continue to be 'identified" with the body, with thought, with a "direction", the truth will be hidden from us...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 20 Apr 2016.

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #143
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
. Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

Hello John, please yes..I read it long ago, and in the biography there really are many interesting informations...details etc

as to the related event and the conversation well there is nothing to add to that intense and really weird moment, it leaves some sort of ..taste is not it ? that is the type of moments lived with the kthing or same type of moments as you know so the quote, not that one which is very social indeed ,but on the same wavelength and it is really a sort of matter of abandonment whatever happens..to me....without of course like in k's "story", reaching the idea of suicide,as this is not at all the point..

this brings me to my last night dream which avoided to reach the nightmare stage as there was no escape but a decision made, where at the end of it , at the edge of a cliff I voluntary jumped whatever would happen, because I was fed up with fear and the pain of it....then I stop 5 cm from the big stones underneath.....then I slept deeply...and woke up with that dream in mind..it is important....sometimes in dreams you can act instead of always escaping..sometimes you just feel so relax and sometimes there is a learning....

I do not understand well what happens in such moment...well I am not trying to..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #144
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
As for the falling and stopping dream it looks like the deeper layers of your consciousness are experimenting with letting go the 'known' . It's by no means not an 'easy ' job -and this is one of my issues with K's talks: it all looks 'so easy'.

Yes something on that wavelength...

"we" know what is behind that and yet, yes not an easy job..

when reading k it is all so easy indeed

John Raica wrote:
De toute évidence il n'a pas fait le même trajet spirituel que nous...

tout à fait certes. une partie de ce qui est ressenti comme poids trop lourd-douleur vient de là...de ne pas lâcher le connu quand il le faut..

Bon je me dis que il y avait un travail plus détaillé à faire par là et c'est pour cela que j'y suis coincé, il y a un truc vital a saisir, un moment...çà pourrait venir ou pas !!
....K a pris l'autoroute et tant mieux pour lui....il a du se jeter de la falaise très souvent voir plus !!!

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #145
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

paul daniel wrote:
Bon je me dis que il y avait un travail plus détaillé à faire par là et c'est pour cela que j'y suis coincé, il y a un truc vital a saisir, un moment...çà pourrait venir ou pas !!
....K a pris l'autoroute et tant mieux pour lui....il a du se jeter de la falaise très souvent voir plus !!!

salut Daniel, salut John comment allez vous..?

ici je profite pour dire quelque chose..

en fait K. était préparé en quelque sorte à prendre l'autoroute avant de se laisser vivre à la douleur... et lorsque celle ci est venue, il était déjà dans une Ferrari prête à partir...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #146
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline


John Raica wrote:
Here's one from Mary Lutyens bio- if you want I can mail you the whole e-book

first page I see this which may be useful in some cases.

* Krishnamurti requested several times that there should be no authoritative interpretation of his teaching, although he encouraged those interested in it to discuss it among themselves.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #147
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

richard villlar wrote:
salut Daniel, salut John comment allez vous..?

ici je profite pour dire quelque chose..

en fait K. était préparé en quelque sorte à prendre l'autoroute avant de se laisser vivre à la douleur... et lorsque celle ci est venue, il était déjà dans une Ferrari prête à partir...

Salut ma poule, ce matin après ce rêve de me jeter du haut de la falaise sans idée de suicide dans le rêve, cela laisse un gout de relaxation profonde voir bien plus comme un genre de ...."questionnement très intéressant"

oui possible voir probable bien sur qu'il avait la ferrari, manquait juste la clé ? "préparé" dis tu, mais qu'entends tu plus précisément par cela ?

je me rappelle avoir lu un écrit à propos de lui même où il disait que quoique il fasse, il y avait un mécontentement permanent présent...rien n'avait de vrai "gout" dirais je..

puis survint la mort de son frère....etc

Ce problème là , ce problème spécifique à la douleur , et ce quel qu’en soit son origine, il pouvait alors déjà avoir eu des intuitions voir plus profond pour savoir y naviguer non ?? est ce cela que tu veux dire ?

Dan ...........

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #148
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

par préparé (car on est rarement préparé à souffrir lol) j'entend le fait que ses pratiques de méditation voire de yoga, l'hygiène de vie qu'il avait ont contribué à préparer un terrain, et ainsi lorsque l'intense douleur de son frère est survenue, à balayer les voiles les plus lourds...

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Thu, 21 Apr 2016 #149
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 22 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

John Raica wrote:
Si tu veux je peux t'envoyer ses bios

si tu veux oui, merci

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

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Fri, 22 Apr 2016 #150
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

John Raica wrote:

As for the falling and stopping dream it looks like the deeper layers of your consciousness are experimenting with letting go the 'known' . It's by no means not an 'easy ' job -and this is one of my issues with K's talks: it all looks 'so easy'.
Dan: Yes something on that wavelength... "we" know what is behind that and yet, yes not an easy job..

So I have to go back to that and expand on that dream which still has some active effects by itself, somehow out of my own capacity to analytically understand ..

the dream being:

paul daniel wrote:
last night dream which avoided to reach the nightmare stage as there was no escape but a decision made, where at the end of it , at the edge of a cliff I voluntary jumped whatever would happen, because I was fed up with fear and the pain of it....then I stop 5 cm from the big stones underneath...

now some of the outcome of that is that I see that what is , is the innate( it is there out of the blue for some reasons) and acquired knowledge of almost everything going on at all practical levels globally on this planet..economy, business , money, war, religion, politics, sciences , conflicts, killing ,who does what + the personal level as well, fear, anxiety, pain, sorrow, death, my death the death of the children , sickness, this utter depressing state of practically anyone, the hopeless state of man, tortures, stealing, cheating, the lies etc ad libitum...up to k's words and more...

all this is a terrible impossible task for the analyser who is now because of that or going the usual mad way of escaping so total ignorance and so of sorrow or not !!!!!

this may freeze the analyser sufficiently even for a few seconds, this gives the opportunity to the other capacities to awake themselves if you do not escape as we all do permanently all the time on all subjects..if there is somewhere left in our mind a flash of sanity and clarity, I may see that "I" can't do anything about all that at all, yet I see it all, most of it of course, in the detail that is not possible, yet by knowing oneself sufficiently so not by thinking even some details would not be surprising at all..as the world of man as it is is so very limited to a few basic reactions only ....

So Can I live in this totally nuts world? well have I the choice ? NO.....

If there is resistance to it, or the idea to change it..then deep troubles are starting now leading to more sorrow ,pain and insanity..

our insane leaders we stupidly vote for are all , like so many of us on that wavelength .

they have chosen the path to fashion the world according to their own image they have of it...multiplied by 7 billions, this can lead to one thing which is violence = conflict = business = war = crimes = inanity-insanity...etc...

entering this total nonsensical path..well this is clearly not a life at all...it is a self punishment ..

what is left ? who said this ? changing yourself, changing the world..

by no means a global solution will work, it seems now that only the one by one radical change may bring the global one...

one more times the roles are reversed,( a voluntary propaganda by "some" !!) where we must be personal first, with this sort of ignorant me in pain, we have false "religion" and a collective educational prison, and where we must be collective we tend to believe( meaning not knowing ) that it is the personal which creates the "success" and feed the world, this is pure fiction of course...because in the facts all what is produced cannot exist without a collective of people, remove a collective from all what is made, there is nothing left at all...which is still the case but this is not perceived at all....the heavy propaganda of the thieves of this collective work works well....on a huge majority of people,

I as a blind person am this insane world, I am all the wars etc ..we are the world that is another fact ....

Seeing this beyond thought is a liberating factor, it works on its own...if..??

Dan ...........

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