Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Experimenter's Corner | moderated by John Raica

Pages from the Book of Life


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 355 in total
Tue, 07 Jul 2015 #61
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K:"This is the ( time-bound) share of all man, of all humanity unless each one of us change to something that is not projected by thought".

If what we are in essence is this 'awareness', passive awareness, choiceless awareness etc., how did we get so far from that, so lost in our 'individuality'? So full of ourselves that there is so little 'space' from which to see ourselves? It must start as children when we were compared and measured against each other (changing now in some parts of the world into how 'special' each child is.) I think that the 'space' to see (watch) ourselves comes through 'meditation'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 07 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 08 Jul 2015 #62
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

krishnamurti:
It appears that man has always escaped from what he is, from where he is going, from What all this is about ? – of the universe, of our daily life, of the dying and the beginning. It is strange that we have never realized that however much we may escape from ourselves, however much we may wander away consciously, deliberately or unconsciously, subtly, the conflicts , pleasure, the pain, fear and so on are always there. And they ultimately dominate .

You may try to push them away deliberately with an act of will but they surface again. And pleasure is one of the factors that predominate; it too has the same conflicts, the same pain, the same boredom. The weariness of pleasure and the fret is part of this turmoil of our life. You can't escape it, my friend. You can't escape from this deep unfathomed turmoil unless there is a careful attention, a diligent watching of the whole 'movement of thought' and the 'self'. You may say all this is perhaps unnecessary. But if you do not pay attention to this the future of mankind is not only going to be more destructive, more intolerable but without much significance. All this is not a depressing point of view, it is actually so. What you 'are' now is what you 'will be' in the coming days. You can't avoid it. It is as definite as the sun rising and setting. This is the share of all man, of all humanity unless each one of us change to something that is not projected by thought.

Dan McDermott wrote:
If what we are in essence is this 'awareness', passive awareness, choiceless awareness etc., how did we get so far from that, so lost in our 'individuality'? So full of ourselves that there is so little 'space' from which to see ourselves? It must start as children when we were compared and measured against each other (changing now in some parts of the world into how 'special' each child is.) I think that the 'space' to see (watch) ourselves comes through 'meditation'.

I think that without an unbearable trigger, the analyser has not one reason to even mediate,whatever you mean yourself by that word..

We have tons of triggers to be honest...but this implies to stop running away from what we are....what life is whether we like it or not..

yes indeed as a child , we tend to reproduce the same pattern we were put into, and could well have refused but did not,apart from exceptions..here I globally mean the false competition organised by the leading thieves..with the plain support of the flock, both playing the same game ,as k mentioned on the above quote, to escape from ourselves.

Escaping being the root of fear, fear is one of those words which says nothing for me..a non word...that was clever to make people talk or think about fear when there is no real meaning behind..

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

again, it implies, clearly, something else than thought..

Indeed, Dan, it requires the clarity and objectivity of direct perception. In this case, thought can just confirm the accuracy of what has been 'seen'- like 'yes, it does make sense' but then, it just stops there. So this quality of such insightful perception has to be integrated in our everyday life- and all thought can do here is...to abstain from any mental action except when it is really necessary

thought as it seems to me cannot unless there is an event of some sort for that..

Such insightful perception rather seems to integrate itself , if and when something proper is done for such happening to take place by itself...would not you say so ??

So the analyser has some work to do, no one will tell him what it is and how to do it..yet it is more than worthy to talk about , so k decided to do so.

As Soon as I am "conscious", the analyser is concerned..

the analyser is feeling a void whatever it does and reach, this is painful

well that a point to star with...then pain overwhelmed anyone if let alone..

this has the property to freeze the usual thinking ,still there but something in me is there now that makes me not listen to my own thoughts...

this something I can't say what it is...

etc..

a new journey has already started..the analyser keeps going on, bit by bit it is forced to question itself...in the case I am mentioning, it is not searching..

cheers..

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 08 Jul 2015 #63
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

KRISHNAMURTI IN DIALOGUE WITH HIMSELF: ON TIME

IT IS THE second day of a spring morning. There is a scent in the air of many flowers and the sky is blue, dotted with passing clouds. The beauty of such a morning is timeless. It isn't just this morning: it is the morning of the whole world. You sit quietly far from everything and look at the blue sky, feel the whole earth, the purity and the loveliness of everything that lives and moves on this earth - except man of course.

K: Man is what he is now after many thousands of centuries of ( evolution in) time. His 'future' is what he is now unless there is a deep abiding mutation of his whole 'psyche' (psychological structure?) . Time has become extraordinarily important to man, to all of us - if you had no time you couldn't put things together to bring about a house; you must have time to lay brick upon brick. You must have time to go from here to where you want to go, but we also think that we need a 'psychological' time, the ( subjective continuity in ? ) 'time' of what has one been, modified now and continuing in the future. Man inwardly pins his hopes ( personal expectations?) on time; - one is 'this', but one hopes will become 'that'. In the physical world one can understand that time is necessary to travel, to reach to the desired place. The desired place is the future. There, (organising one's life in terms of?) time seems not only necessary but must exist. And this same movement (mentality?) is extended in the world of the psyche. But is there ( a time of) psychological becoming at all? The religions, the evolutionary books, have informed us that we need time to change (inwardly) from 'what (one) is' to 'what ( one) should be'. And there is a certain ( amount of) pleasure and pain in inwardly becoming 'non-violent' when one is 'violent' (greedy, self-centred, fearful?) , and that it needs an enormous amount of time. And perhaps that is one of the ( psycho-) miseries of man – when that fulfilment, that hope, is not achieved, is not come by easily. Is there actually 'time' in the (inner) 'psychological' world - is the divisive (mentality?) of man that has brought about conflict? After all, ideologies have existed perhaps as long as man can remember. And, like belief or faith, they separate man from man. And this ( mentality of?) separation comes about through time. The 'me', the I, the ego, the person, from the family to the group, to the tribe, to the nation. One wonders if these tribalistic divisions can ever be bridged over. Evolution ( of mankind) has separate groups, so time, knowledge, experience, definite conclusions, will never bring about a global relationship, a global mind.

So the question is: is there a possibility of bringing about a change in the actuality of what ( one) 'is', totally disregarding the ( wishful thinking?) movement of time? Is there a possibility of changing ( one's inner heritage of?) violence - can ( greed?) envy, with all its implications, be changed without ( thinking in terms of?) time being involved at all- to radically end 'envy' without time? This 'ending' has no time.

Q : Why do you say, sir, that time is unnecessary for change?

K : Let us together find out what is the truth of the matter, together having a dialogue to explore into this matter. It is the ( generally accepted) tradition that time is necessary for any change. That is correct about the physical time, the time necessary to gain a physical skill, but here we are considering whether the ( human) 'psyche' can ( through will?) reach a 'higher' state of consciousness. That is the whole movement (mentality?) of measurement, comparison. What does ( a radical inner?) ) 'change' imply? We live inwardly in disorder, confused, uncertain, constantly seeking rewards and avoiding punishments. We want to be secure, yet everything we do seems to bring about insecurity. This, and more, brings about disorder in our daily life. We have this constant ( psycho-) urge to move away from ( an unsatisfactory reality of?) "what (one) is", to become something other, rather than the understanding of "what is" and the causes of disorder.'

Q : That I understand, we do 'escape' from (facing?) "what is". We never consider diligently, what is happening now in each one of us. If we have a great deal of pain, psychologically, inwardly, we never look at it carefully. We want immediately to erase it, to find some consolation. And always there is this (instinctive ?) struggle to reach a state where there is no pain, where there is ( inner peace and?) no disorder. But the very attempt to bring about order seems to bring about other problems. So, you are saying, sir, that time is not a factor of change? I am not sure I really understand it.

K : Let us ask the question: is there a ( possibility for a?) timeless (time-free?) perception of that "which is"? That is, to look at "what is" without all the accumulated memories, words, reactions - to look at that feeling, at that reaction of (say for instance) , 'envy'. To observe this feeling without the 'actor' ('controller'?) who is ( impersonating?) all the remembrance of things that have happened before. Time is not merely the (chronological interval between the?) rising of the sun and the setting, or yesterday, today and tomorrow. ( Inwardly, the movement of?) time is much more complicated, more intricate, subtle. And to really understand the nature and the depth of time one has to meditate upon whether in the field of the 'psyche' time has a stop, whether (this thought projected?) time, really, actually, can ever come to an end? That is really the question : whether the continuity of the psyche is a reality or the desperate hope of man to cling to something that will give him some sort of security, comfort. When you look at the heavens, the planets and the unimaginable number of stars, can that ( immensity of the?) universe be understood by the time-bound mind ( by our temporal consciousness?) ? Is time necessary to see instantly that which is always true? One should really 'hold it in your mind', not 'think about it', but just observe the whole (inner) movement of 'time', which is really the movement of thought. Thought and time are not two different things : Time is (the creation of?) thought and thought is (the creation of) time. To put it differently, is there the actual 'ending of thought'? That is, the 'ending of knowledge'? Knowledge is time, thought is time, and we are asking whether this

accumulating ( and updating?) process of ( psycho-) knowledge, gathering more and more information, pursuing more and more the intricacies of one's existence, can end? Can ( the psychological content of?) thought, which is after all the essence of the 'psyche', the fears, the pleasures, the anxieties, the loneliness, the sorrow and this self-centred activity of selfishness, can all that come to an end? When death comes there is the ( compulsory?) ending of all that. But we are not talking about (that) death, the final ending, but whether we can actually perceive that ( the psychological component of?) thought, time, have an ending. Our knowledge after all is the ( result of a constant ?) accumulation ( updating, processing?) through time of our various ( personal and collective) experiences, the recording of various incidents, happenings, and so on; this recording is naturally stored in the brain, this recording is the essence of 'time' ( our temporal consciousness?) . Can we find out when this recording (and usage?) of knowledge is necessary, and whether the 'psychological ' recording is necessary at all? When one is ( feeling) insulted or psychologically hurt by a word, by a gesture, by an action, why should that 'hurt' be recorded? Is it possible not to record the flattery or the insult so that the 'psyche' (the mind?) is never cluttered up, so that it has vast space (inwardly) , and the ( identified?) 'psyche' that we are conscious of as the "me", which again is put together by thought and time, comes to an end?

We are always afraid of something that we have not previously experienced. But you can't 'experience' ( have a personal experience of?) truth. To 'experience' (truth personally ?) there must be the 'experiencer' ( a self-consciousness?) . The 'experiencer' is the result of time, accumulated memory, knowledge and so on. As we said at the beginning, ( understanding the inner process of?) 'time' demands quick, watchful, attentive understanding. In our daily life can one live without 'time', inwardly? The roots of Heaven are not in time and thought.'

Q : Sir, your various statements about 'time' and 'thought' seem now, while I am listening to you, so simple, so clear, and perhaps for a second or two there is the ending and stopping of 'time'. But when I go back to my ordinary routine, the weariness and the boredom of it all, even pleasure becomes rather wearisome - when I go back I will pick up the old threads. It seems so extraordinarily difficult to let go of the threads and look, without reaction, at the way of time. But I am beginning to understand that there is a possibility of 'not recording', if I may use your words. I realize I 'am' the record. I have been programmed to (thinking of) being this or that. One can see that fairly easily and perhaps put all that aside. But the ending of thought and the intricacies of time need a great deal of observation, a great deal of investigation. But you are really saying; just watch without any reaction, give total attention to the ordinary things of life and there discover the possibility of ending time and thought. Thank you indeed for this interesting talk.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 09 Jul 2015 #64
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

Such insightful perception rather seems to integrate itself , if and when something proper is done for such happening to take place by itself...would not you say so ??

Indeed, Dan, my understanding is that it is all related to a certain capacity of listening to truth- and of course, it all begins with rejecting the false

Hi John

Who is deciding what is false? it is not a trap question to you at all, it is something which is in my mind for some time now, and I really sense more and more than thought has nothing at all to see with any truth apart as usual as eventual relative only facts in any practical fields..yet even thought sanely working which is not that common could see that there is not one truth in practical matters, but many ways to do things..

but here we do not talk about that type of falseness or rightness of course...

I say man as we usually think of what he is, has no access to any truth beyond practicality..not to worry, that is what the analyser set up is...

You seem to imply that there is Truth, and something is us can listen to it..as far as I understand , this is what I feel too.

John Raica wrote:
I believe that these imaginary K dialogues (from his last journal) are throwing some light on the 'false'- processes of our average ' conscience temporelle '- as the 'false' stuff is discarded, more free inner space is generated for a direct, 'time-free' perception.

So I have to read this last quote before going on...

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 09 Jul 2015 #65
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K: Man is what he is now after many thousands of centuries of time. His 'future' is what he is now unless there is a deep abiding mutation of his whole 'psyche'

well then we are doomed so !!

the all planet, less some exceptions as usual, is waiting for some sort of saviour, messiah, galactic event ...and no one will come to play that part...kind of wait and do nothing at all, my messiah will provide for me when he or she will be there, no not a she, as men think that only a man will be a saviour...

that is the cunning master who implanted such nonsense in naive and frightened minds...and it works well..

I suppressed "evolution" from your comment John..that is an analyser fantasy only for me...it is not factual...it is one of the perverse false idea implanted as absolute truth since 300 years.......with the simple idea : we go from being miserable creatures toward the best, this is why the universe has to be in expansion, and why there was a big bang,like a bullet from God' gun....all this indicating the illusion ,again, that we are on the good track, not a good life today? no worries ,tomorrow will be great ,look at our machines !!!

this constant blind assertion of being great:" how great we are !!" ,for me denotes the opposite in the subconscious...

John Raica wrote:
The desired place is the future. There, time seems not only necessary but must exist. And this same movement is extended in the world of the psyche.

yes indeed...
thought's field is ONLY in the future,including the immediate one..and by no means this is going to be different...

so in such case is it extended to the world of the psyche ( what k means by that here ???) or is it not more simply not extended to anything at all and thought is all what there is...for us ?

John Raica wrote:
Evolution( of mankind) has separate groups, so time, knowledge, experience, definite conclusions, will never bring about a global relationship, a global mind.

so k goes on with this word too...;-)
in the old sense of evolution I would have no problem with it as it just means change...which is fine,things are changing, or my god what a discovery :-))

but now it is supposed to place mankind in the shuttle to reach the Gods too..again a blind assertion to be more right than right...all this is so empty...

thought is not a process which unifies nor the opposite, it calculates,evaluates etc and that is obviously not its purpose at all to unify , I do not care about others because that is not "my" function. Asking to thought not to be divisive and calculating is as a simplistic question as asking a car to reach another galaxy,

For me now on that specific subject k is again so right when he mentions the vital need of the knowledge of the self to be uncovered...

by no means thought is able to do such thing is my view so far...the so far is vital here of course.

John Raica wrote:
To put it differently, is there the actual ending of thought? That is, the ending of knowledge? Knowledge is time, thought is time, and we are asking whether this

accumulating process of knowledge, gathering more and more information, pursuing more and more the intricacies of one's existence, can end? Can thought, which is after all the essence of the 'psyche', the fears, the pleasures, the anxieties, the loneliness, the sorrow and this self-centred activity of selfishness, can all that come to an end? When death comes there is the ending of all that. But we are not talking about (that) death, the final ending, but whether we can actually perceive that thought, time, have an ending

Dan: OK knowledge is time as its field of calculation-evaluation,conception will take place in the future only, including a micro second in this future..end of the story for thought...we see what it is producing on earth, machines,wars,conflict, tortures, destruction,cars,planes, arrogance, lies,cheating,false religion etc etc and sorrow ,pain suffering,depression,anxiety, etc etc etc life is a sort of torture an absolute fact to which I try to resist ...like I resist to the fact of death, of sorrow and all of it ...

thought as an ending suggest k..

John Raica wrote:
We are always afraid of something that we have not previously experienced. But you can't 'experience' ( have a personal experience of?) truth. To 'experience' (truth personally ?) there must be the 'experiencer' . The 'experiencer' is the result of time, accumulated memory, knowledge and so on. As we said at the beginning, 'time' demands quick, watchful, attentive understanding. In our daily life can one live without 'time', inwardly? The roots of Heaven are not in time and thought.'

Is it really a matter of being frightened? this is how the analyser is translating what it very partially perceive,which is very little in fact..too little to be able to make such statement..

since that revealing of the analyser program has started ,for me now this is not what happens.."I" is not frightened, it just can't work in fields where is has no capacity,and this is totally different..it is not a matter of escaping, of running away, of fear etc ,it is just a simple matter that the analyser cannot work in any other field but only where there is anything memorised before..

the brain records, very superficially or even deeply but still superficial as it is its job to do that and then the analyser looks at this movie and try to make something out of it...this includes any micro second away from now too..the now ever changing and impossible to grasp..

this is for me why k says: But you can't 'experience' ( have a personal experience of?) truth...........The personal being the analyser watching memories including the one it made for the future cannot live the present so the unknown so the unrecorded...

there is in fact no fear, nor escapism as such, fact is that there is capacity or not...if not why is the analyser trying to keep working where it has obviously no capacity at all by set up ?

one answer would be that it is totally ignorant of what it is, of its own set up, or even of itself juts being a machine..

Globally what produces the pain of a sorrowful life which is the case of everyone on earth,despite the lies , is the functioning of the analyser...which has no capacity with the now....yesterday and tomorrow are non existent..so we only live a sort of non existent life..

the pain of it indicates wrongness and for me is a remarkable catalyst given for free to us to help to find ways to solve such problems..when it is about the unknown...sorrow is meant to make the analyser shut up , but we do not use it properly, we may use it to gain, when it is vital to not use it in fact..but to let it be...that would be the limit of the analyser's capacities to acknowledge this : OK, here I am useless I accept to let this be...but it is vital to have not one single hope ,this MUST include the unconscious and sorrow if lived precisely have this capacity to freeze any unconscious will to gain something by pretending to deal with sorrow...when this is rightly lives what happens next is as far as i know, out of "my" control....

when there is no movie recorded like for death, sorrow ,tomorrow etc etc then it makes its own conceptual movie to keep working...if it only lies ,it really does not care..

thanks John ,and ...k ;-)

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 09 Jul 2015 #66
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

K: Man is what he is now after many thousands of centuries of time. His 'future' is what he is now unless there is a deep abiding mutation of his whole 'psyche'

Dan: well then we are doomed so !!

Other Dan: Hi. Here is my simple (minded?) explanation. We are to whatever extent involved in an experiment and use this forum to share our findings, experiences, questions, confusions, etc. This is an experiment to see if it is possible to radically change the direction that humanity has been moving and save the human race from itself. Individual salvation is not what this is about. (K. called that "silly") So we are pioneers in this endeavor but because of K.'s descriptions, analysis, teaching etc., we are going about this experiment in a different 'way' than our ancestors. No paths, no authority, no system. We 'know' what is 'wrong', we 'know' why it is wrong and we 'know' what to do about it...As I think K. said (and I know 'Pogo' did): "we have seen the enemy and it is us!"
Keep looking. (and if we don't 'succeed', there will be lots of folks coming behind us.):-)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 10 Jul 2015 #67
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

K: Man is what he is now after many thousands of centuries of time. His 'future' is what he is now unless there is a deep abiding mutation of his whole 'psyche'

Dan: well then we are doomed so !!

Other Dan: Hi. Here is my simple (minded?) explanation. We are to whatever extent involved in an experiment and use this forum to share our findings, experiences, questions, confusions, etc. This is an experiment to see if it is possible to radically change the direction that humanity has been moving and save the human race from itself. Individual salvation is not what this is about. (K. called that "silly")

Hello the other Dan....

Yes, Well will the human race save itself from premature ending as this is now the case, well I don't know, but I do not see any objective event,happening and so on, to make such guess, we still surely are drowning into something not necessary at all and it is obvious that so far no catastrophe having turned man into a wise person, naturally compassionate in k' sense...the passion to be with things,people, nature etc, then there is no hope,and for me this is precisely the point...hope is preventing any changes for me..speaking from experiment

So this bring us right to individual salvation, well salvation from what ,I think you mention the enemy within,so it is about that??.

For me the individual is a reality within the collective,we just get it totally wrong for control freak reasons by the power so that the individuality is brought in first position as the creator of the global where the collective is the vital need without which no survival and inner life is possible like in all production and sharing of survival needs and we bring the collective where prior to any collective fact the individual must first endure a radical transformation ,awakening or whatever words suit..like to dissolve itself willingly under the pressure of sorrow, pain, discontentment, etc...

We are living times of total renversement of facts of life...like for some,as a symbol of all that renversement of the Christian cross(not a follower) which is upside down in some Hollywood movies where Satan and friends are having good time...when you know who controls Hollywood you know the master...the exact same is happening in the EU too...with the maximum emphasis of it on France.

however for me this is of course empty so pure illusion...nevertheless it is an insane and dangerous child-minded game for absolute power and behind is to be found some quest for absolute mystical power too, so not to be taken lightly as a great danger..a quest for some sort of enlightenment or hysterical absolute satisfaction of all desires, including the refusal of death as an absolute fact..

all this to say that the personal is a fact for me, in the sense of the understanding of it through the catalyst which for me mental pain is, is a key to the global, not as a "I"...for me it is not incidental that mental suffering there is...like it is not incidental that there is physical suffering..it is a function as i see it.

this is at least what my experiences say in my case...has it a global property ? I would be tempted to say yes it has...

Today the attraction of entertainment as a mean to run away is huge...this does not help in fact... organised religions bring the same entertainment, again a running away it is...and if one misread k, such reading too brings a running away from .....anything really...

Silly it may be...??

Dan McDermott wrote:
So we are pioneers in this endeavour but because of K.'s descriptions, analysis, teaching etc., we are going about this experiment in a different 'way' than our ancestors. No paths, no authority, no system. We 'know' what is 'wrong', we 'know' why it is wrong and we 'know' what to do about it...As I think K. said (and I know 'Pogo' did): "we have seen the enemy and it is us!"

I have discovered nothing bringing unexpected vital radical move in my life by reading k.

Leaving my deep suffering alone has done most if not all of the job in fact; what I am mentioning here is from experiences , then often I try to find out about very specific points in k's writings and like about sorrow and suffering ( but not only) that I have lived for myself somehow, it is in k's words but not in the obvious..k did not emphasis about sorrow and another subject which immediately goes with it which is the unconscious brain mind ....

the unconscious is what is guiding us in fact...and this is too in k"s words...

So I think that when reading k, all must be read, the biography included because it is really in the detail that sometimes a trigger will be hidden, reading to be eventually used as an unwilling trigger by anyone...

As to the ancestors,well I am actually reading a book about the middle ages in Europe, it seems that what we were told is really propaganda...just to say that i do not buy what I was told about the past of mankind...I just don't know is my position..looking at what is left of the past with our conditioned eyes for me does not make sense anyway....

For example my grand father was a farmer and in his time 1890+, in fact they were working less that we do now...this is something which is not known, same for the middle ages time where everything was much slower etc etc

It seems that when something is turned on in our brains, that out of the blue some facts are revealed and lies easily perceived too..

So we understand why the power does need man to keep blind to itself..and again k was right one more time: one of the key is self knowledge and as far as i experience anything in this matter it all comes to you unexpectedly through revelations when properly living the self inflicted misery of life..

All this is quite remarkably functioning on its own when "I" shuts up when it must...so as an individual the only field where I can do anything in in the field of knowledge, of the analyser and its fight against it self inflicted pain...."I" must be defeated that way..

And things seem to happen by themselves...but any wish is totally inadequate in such position...

and so on...

cheers...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 10 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 10 Jul 2015 #68
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

Is it really a matter of being frightened? this is how the analyser is translating what it very partially perceive,which is very little in fact..too little to be able to make such statement..

Well, Dan, perceptions may vary, but another name for the 'analyser' is an educated controlling entity. And realising it cannot control or radically influence all its inner reality, it may well panic. Or...it may get 'scholarly' and write books after books of ...psycho-crap.

well for me John analyser is good enough, I keep it simple in words for my own taste..

The panic before to be a panic starts with the impossibility to deal with anything unknown...and the analyser translates that as a panic attack ...

first the analyser is confronted with an unknown situation necessitating an immediate answer which the analyser has not...if the analyser is aware that in such time it has no capacity it may leave things alone and not interfering, but as it is ignorant of that it interferes...then the havoc has started..

then only after will it name such moment as panic....which means running away...like in dreams nightmare where I try to run fast and am so slow that what I run away from is always right behind me, of course it is right behind as what I attempt to escape from is .....me... all this is an impossible situation..

the pain comes from the fact that what I crave for does not happens, it simply signals a mistake...

psycho crap...well yes indeed....it is so boring at the best, at school we tried to read some as part of the program, after two lines of freud for example..I decided this: never again.....:-))

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

You seem to imply that there is Truth, and something is us can listen to it..as far as I understand , this is what I feel too.

Yes, like a fundamental wave-length of Reality. But possibly before tuning in to that frequency, we can start by discerning 'what is false' . sounds kind of esoteric but with some hindsight we can discern that many of the old stuff taught in school was if not totally false at least sprinkled with a salt-and-pepper mixture of facts and distorted interpretations of the same facts. No big deal about, different history textbooks from different periods of time or from different countries may be quite different - same with the concepts on educations, psycho-philo, etc In these areas there is a quite perceptive 'personalistic' or nationalistic as for instance in ..L'EXCEPTION CULTURELLE FRANÇAISE Now basically many children do see this false - as in 'the emperor's new clothes', but do not often dare to take a stand since most of those in charge are just taking them for granted.

Yes,as you now with my neurotic insistence on sorrow as a function, this is how what is false is perceived as far as I am concerned..according to Richard this is meditation as he sees that in his own experiences..

Each false which is seen non analytically seems to provoke a counter effect in unknown fields of the brain mind,insights,revelation,visions etc etc

so this is not esoteric at all in fact as you know it .

As to the French cultural exception , well having this cultural background as well as the Celtic one being from Brittany, well this sounds more like a vain wish of the traditional French arrogance.. like France would be the homeland of human rights, well that is a good joke indeed...for me...

having said that there are many writers I like, and some would go back to the middle ages times I am actually reading about...so many lies about those times were told ....writers like francois Villon, ruteboeuf etc then starting with Rabelais at the so called renaissance .....but not only...up to now where a major intellectual event is the gay parade..

So safe journey to ojai...say hello to the spirit of k for me...

cheers

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 14 Jul 2015 #69
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

KRISHNAMURTI TO HIMSELF : ON (HOLISTIC) EDUCATION

We came to this house ( in ojai) which was recently built and with the cleanliness that houses in towns don't have. There were lots of flowers, a place in which to be deeply, inwardly, quiet, not just vegetate.

Silence is a great benediction, it cleanses the brain, gives vitality to it, and this silence builds up a great unpolluted energy, untouched by thought. It is the ( total) energy (of the brain) that has incalculable capacity, skills. And this is a place where the brain, being very active, can be silent. That very intense activity of the brain has the quality and the depth and the beauty of silence. (Holistic ?) education is the cultivation of the whole brain, not one part of it; it is a cultivation of the (whole?) human being. (Such) a school should teach both science and religion. Science really means the cultivation of (the field of?) knowledge, and this has given us the innumerable small things for an easier way of life in which human beings need not struggle endlessly but it has also given us the modern ( techno-?) deity, the computer.

Human beings look to science to bring about peace in the world, but it has failed, just as the politicians have failed to give them total security and peace. And the essence of a religious way of life is inner freedom, to have no conflict, psychologically, inwardly. With such freedom the brain becomes holistic, not fragmented in itself. Freedom also means love, compassion, and there is no freedom if there is not intelligence. If there is some ( cooperating ?) peace among a few people, then those few, not necessarily ( the self-selected?) 'elite', will employ all their skill to bring about a different world, where religion and science can go together. Religion is a form of ( inward?) science : to go beyond (the limitations of?) knowledge and to comprehend the nature and immensity of the human mind and heart. But this ( inward) immensity has nothing whatsoever to do with any 'organized' religion.

A ( holistically oriented ?) school is a place for learning the art of living. This art is the greatest, it surpasses all other arts for this art touches the entire human being, not one part of him, however pleasant that may be. And in a school of this kind, if the educator is committed to this as an actuality of daily life (s)he can actually try to find out in the human brain a way of living that is not caught in problems, strife, conflict and pain. And (such an) educator could also instil in the students' ( beyond the scholastic) acquisition of knowledge this freedom from knowledge (absolutely necessary ?) to understand 'that' which is eternal, which is timeless. Knowledge is of time, and ( a religious mind?) is free from the bondage of time. It seems so urgent and important that we bring about a new generation, even half a dozen people in the world would make a vast difference. But this (new) educator needs (to go through self-?) education (since) this is the greatest vocation in the world.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 14 Jul 2015 #70
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And (such an) educator could also instil in the students' ( beyond the scholastic) acquisition of knowledge this freedom from knowledge (absolutely necessary ?) to understand 'that' which is eternal, which is timeless. Knowledge is of time, and ( a religious mind?) is free from the bondage of time.

Hi John,

"Freedom from the Known" is the most important thing to realise. In the state of insight or awareness, thought "slows" down. There seems to be an inverse relationship: when awareness is present, thought slows and when it is absent, thought reigns. But in that 'in-seeing' state, it is possible to inquire directly,i.e., about fear; psychological fear. And it can be clearly seen that it is caused by this construction of psychological time: a past made up of all memories, a present, and a projected future where anything can 'happen'.(Fear, pleasure and conflict). Also in this state, it can be seen that there is no 'thinker' apart from the thought itself. 'Watching' the thought, transforms it from whatever it was occupied with to a more 'intelligent' mode which wonders, questions, why it is being active at all.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 14 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 14 Jul 2015 #71
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
"Freedom from the Known" is the most important thing to realise. In the state of insight or awareness, thought "slows" down. There seems to be an inverse relationship: when awareness is present, thought slows and when it is absent, thought reigns. But in that 'in-seeing' state, it is possible to inquire directly,

Quite agree with you, Dan. The core issue comes down to re-establishing the natural awareness of the brain cells. During millenia of cultural conditioning, the responsability fot our overall security has been delegated to the 'onboard computer' - the brain an its vast banc of past experiences and memories. We can easily see at this point in time that this mental self-protective model is outdated and actually failing us to realise the true values of human existence. The obvious difficulty is that the child's brain gets confused about this 'security' issue- and the search for pleasure and instant rewards is one main cause. the others are our instinctive drive for survival at any price, the cultural and economic pressures of modern societies which are based on past knowledge, etc.
So, overall it seems an almost impossible job, especially if we're looking at those around us who did not even realise the gravity of their psychological condition.
This is why I see that a true inward act of learning is the only constructive option available to each and all of us
I will continue with my reader friendly editing of K's 'talking to himself- probably he recorded them, since they don't seem quite coherent. But putting it all together we can find a lot of inspirational insights

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 15 Jul 2015 #72
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
This is why I see that a true inward act of learning is the only constructive option available to each and all of us
I will continue with my reader friendly editing of K's 'talking to himself- probably he recorded them, since they don't seem quite coherent. But putting it all together we can find a lot of inspirational insights.

Thanks John, I'll look forward to them.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 15 Jul 2015 #73
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
That very intense activity of the brain has the quality and the depth and the beauty of silence. Education is the cultivation of the whole brain, not one part of it; it is a cultivation of the human being. (Such) a school should teach both science and religion. Science really means the cultivation of knowledge, and this has given us the innumerable small things for an easier way of life in which human beings need not struggle endlessly but it has also given us the modern deity, the computer.

one point the way k is using science is not for me the way meant by science today..

In old days most people were clever at doing many many things having close links with producing survival needs unlike today.... ,they all had to be manually clever ,apart of course for the usual parasites of the real work,good at one thing: stealing the common good.....like today...
So I throw away the word science here and stay with the words "practical knowledge and skills fields " instead..

At this stage it is quite necessary ,for me, to re-invent proper words with a very specific and precise meaning..in order to communicate rightly...I must add that the deconstruction of the language is a voluntary doing for control-freak reasons ....

As for the easier way of life...for someone not willing by collectively working and sharing to produce his own veg, find his own food ,built his own shelter, knit his own clothes ,make his own shoes and so on, so basically unwilling to manually work yes...seen that way it seems a great success...

so we should be all happy, what is even the point of such website...all is fine..
science will provide and if not gods will...

why is humanity so close to global suicide...in the k sense..of escaping from, like here why escape from the promise absolute happiness brought by tools...??

why this permanent and unbearable discontentment ,frustration, sorrow,suffering, pain, sadness,fear,terror ,etc ??

More of it perhaps ?? yes that's it...I want more..

well.......

John Raica wrote:
And the essence of a religious way of life is inner freedom, to have no conflict, psychologically, inwardly. With such freedom the brain becomes holistic, not fragmented in itself. Freedom also means love, compassion, and there is no freedom if there is not intelligence. If there is some ( cooperating ?) peace among a few people, then those few, not necessarily ( the self-selected?) 'elite', will employ all their skill to bring about a different world, where religion and practical knowledge and skills capacities can go together. Religion is to go beyond knowledge and to comprehend the nature and immensity of the human mind and heart. But this immensity has nothing whatsoever to do with any 'organized' religion.

well John ,good point in my view to have added the word "cooperating" here, it is really one vital key word for me..I myself have made modifications to the original text.. the word "science" is gone...

John Raica wrote:
A ( holistically oriented ?) school is a place for learning the art of living. This art is the greatest, it surpasses all other arts for this art touches the entire human being, not one part of him, however pleasant that may be. And in a school of this kind, if the educator is committed to this as an actuality of daily life (s)he can actually try to find out in the human brain a way of living that is not caught in problems, strife, conflict and pain. And (such an) educator could also instil in the students' ( beyond the scholastic) acquisition of knowledge this freedom from knowledge (absolutely necessary ?) to understand 'that' which is eternal, which is timeless. Knowledge is of time, and ( a religious mind?) is free from the bondage of time. It seems so urgent and important that we bring about a new generation, even half a dozen people in the world would make a vast difference. But this (new) educator needs (to go through self-?) education (since) this is the greatest vocation in the world.

John Raica wrote:
A ( holistically oriented ?) school is a place for learning the art of living. This art is the greatest, it surpasses all other arts for this art touches the entire human being, not one part of him, however pleasant that may be. And in a school of this kind, if the educator is committed to this as an actuality of daily life (s)he can actually try to find out in the human brain a way of living that is not caught in problems, strife, conflict and pain. And (such an) educator could also instil in the students' ( beyond the scholastic) acquisition of knowledge this freedom from knowledge (absolutely necessary ?) to understand 'that' which is eternal, which is timeless. Knowledge is of time, and ( a religious mind?) is free from the bondage of time. It seems so urgent and important that we bring about a new generation, even half a dozen people in the world would make a vast difference. But this (new) educator needs (to go through self-?) education (since) this is the greatest vocation in the world.

At this stage of total distress despite all the machines and gadgets, I think that some sort of mental collapsing will have to come first...I do not necessarily mention a big huge war..yet it is one possibility if the guy with the red phone and button becomes too neurotic and suicidal..

And here i have a question to the Origin: are you going to interfere somehow ??

You know when this Original bliss was there and since sometimes a little taste of it is back, I learnt a tip or two at the same time, tips that were and still are free of charge..

Apart with children up to some undefined age where some necessary firm but benevolent watchful eye, supervision is for me vital , I see that so clearly...apart from that, we shall not have any master,guru,leader/ slavish ,type of relationship between is..not as a will, but this Original bliss is like that...it has no hierarchic order in many fields but only one single unity...

unity is what matters...we have broken it by being analytical only..

At this stage half a dozen seems to be too little...as person would be instantly killed by the actual evil power..

Yet, who knows what this Original blissful energy "plan" is ??

I would not bet on anything at this level..the unknown is more what is factual .

cheers

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 16 Jul 2015 #74
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Every year she's asking the same questions! Doesn't she realise that she's knocking at an open door ?

John Raica wrote:
paul daniel wrote:

i have a question to the Origin: are you going to interfere somehow ??

Hello John, somehow it is actually indirectly interfering I sense.....and the right question should have been : "are you going to interfere MORE "

each time we go analytical ,when it is not the right tool to be used in the concerned field, we get a signal that it is wrong........and it contains a repellent feeling in it..

having no clue about that, then after some time, it is reaching a state where the light signal becomes pain..then unbearable pain,whether conscious or more obviously a lot of it is totally embedded within the unconscious zone created by the superficial analyser ..

Still having no clue, this signal is meant to increase by inertia....

It can lead to destruction of one, killing himself as a last resource to run away from pain which is not lived, and global destruction as well due to "me running away" multiplied by X billion...in both destructive cases, it is the very same wrongness which is provoking that..

There is no running away happening at all of course, just the will of it...it does not exist.

Well it would have been interesting to know about the question..

cheers

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 16 Jul 2015 #75
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
To the Buddhist, the image, (suggested by) the word Buddha creates great reverence, great feeling, devotion; he seeks refuge in the image which thought has created. And as the thought is limited, that very 'image' brings about (a subtle inner cleavage?) conflict

while the feeling of reverence to a person, or to a certain long-established tradition divorced from all the external images, symbols and so on, is not (necessarily?) a factor of conditioning the brain. There, sitting in the next chair, was a 'modified' Christian. And when across the table one mentioned 'Christ' one could immediately feel the restrictive, reverential reserve. That word has (culturally) 'conditioned' his brain.

The suffering of mankind is common, is shared by all human beings.

Dan...about conflictual inner conflict...what is conflictual in such situation ?
K says that thought is limited, but why is limitation bringing conflict so fight so pain ?

choice again is at the root of this..

each choice is loaded with a potential absolute happiness to be found in it, the expected result is never there......etc etc

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 18 Jul 2015 #76
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K:' You know, Sir, I'm surrounded here by a lot of people who haven't even the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about'

But maybe for some, the "fog" is lifting...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 18 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 22 Jul 2015 #77
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Q : The whole structure of society is based on this premise : competition, success : that will 'activate' us, otherwise you will 'go under' or go to sleep

Hello John, was away for some days ,

As often I started by the end of this quite interesting talk about the now famous insights..

Well as I see this now, before I had some direct involuntary visions about how the analytical process works , about its program, to be honest apart from some usual blah blah, I would have nothing "real" to say here, competition,success, go under, go to sleep etc etc

From what I have seen, there is no competition as such at all...what there is is division, and this division starts within one's brain, when the analyser/analysed is working fully, and when there is nothing else to it...

The analyser does not simply stand everything so everyone which is not itself ,unless it can use it...because it is only looking at itself, its memory its innate capacities and nothing else..

yet this sentence is not right , as the fact is that the analyser is only able to watch itself , whatever the all itself is...including memories,etc etc

When it is in presence of some other "it-selves" , having no relation apart from profit , it tries to use or suppress, eradicate, eliminate all other selves....

this is what is meant to bring harmony, peace, ,wise persons on earth...good very sad joke !!

this is what we wrongly call competition, there never had been at a deep level any competition between human beings..never!! we just do not relate at all, unless there is a gain in sight,so it is not a relation but a use of someone and this too is just a part of the analytical program, which is needed in order to find a good enough technique, tool, etc in practical fields only, there is no matter of relationship in the analysing program....

So the questioner here talks about himself only, because he is totally caught in what he perceives as a rat race and a vital need to push himself, without knowing that this is just a normal effect of functioning only with the analytical program.....having not a clue about his own functioning as a me...well...

then k for me brings the right question:

K : Of course ! That's all we know. So we are asking is there an energy which is not brought about through friction ? Suppose I say 'Yes' . For you, it may be just a theory. But if you are interested, if you say ; By Jove, I will give (dedicate?) my life to find that out' You will have it there (laughs)

So on the way or we have a normal life from birth to death...or we have met sorrow, pain, we lived all that, then what happens is the revealing of the roots of some of then ,so the relief and so on, then bit by bit as it wishes there is this analytical process which is revealing itself.......etc etc

.................

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #78
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K : Yes, if he's willing to listen!Therefore the very act of (non-verbal, non-argumentative?) listening
is the awakening of that Intelligence.Then that intelligence can communicate with the other. You follow what I'm saying ? If you are actually free from all sense (expectation of?) a reward, that is the ending of sorrow.. But this is not a reward ; it is so !

Q : For you this is not a reward, but for us when you say that you are holding a promise, a reward

Q2 : Because we think in terms of our personal sorrow ending...

K : i know. There is not only the personal sorrow, there is also a global sorrow.

-

John Raica wrote:
K : Of course ! That's all we know. So we are asking is there an (inner source of?) energy which is
not brought about through (overcoming life's ?) friction ? Suppose I say 'Yes' . For you, it may be just a theory. But if you are interested, if you say ; By Jove, I will give (dedicate?) my life to find that out' You will have it there (laughs)

Q : Has it happened to anyone ? This going from a state where there is the 'self' ( self-controlled?) , through insight, to a state of 'no self' ?

K : Again, you are thinking in terms of 'time' : (going ) from this to that. You don't ask the right question ! I know the energy that's created through friction- the whole civilisation is based on that, on ( that energy generated by overcoming?) friction. I want to find out if there is an energy which has no friction. You gave 30 years to become a Professor, but you don't give even five minutes (of meditative inquiry?) to find this out.

Q : No, that's not true, we give it time but I guess we don't give it the totality of ourselves

K : You never give it ! Don't talk about 'totally'. I'll put it this way : Without (a quality of spiritual ?) insight life is a burden- 'burden' in the biggest sense of the word . So the re must be (this quality of?) insight, otherwise what is the point of living?What is the point of going through all this horror that one goes through ?

Q : So, if there is no ( temporal) transition from this to that, what is the 'total revolution' you are talking about ?

K : That is the 'ending' of this.

..........................................

Hello John...

well this seems to be a piece of.....masterpiece ;-)

the: "you never give it five minutes to find this out" (I want to find out if there is an energy which has no friction.)

etc etc...

ending in : what is the point of living ? what is the point of going though all this horror that one goes through....

then I go on with my personal reading.....leaving what is said before alive..as those questions are mine too for a long time now..

.................................

John Raica wrote:
K : No, it's not 'obvious' ! If you are not aware of that, then you have no right to ask the question ' What is insight ?'...Does it come out of time ? I see it has nothing to do with time. That means, if you are still (inwardly occupied with the process of?) 'time' in the sense of 'thought' and so on, you can't have the other .

Q : But we are occupied with 'time'

K : So, if you are occupied with 'time', find out if 'time' can stop.

Q : That was the question, sir !

K : Careful now, listen to it : the brain is reluctant to go into this because it may loose complete security. As it has lived in time, it has worked in time, it has brought about (its own continuity in ?) 'time', in that (the brain has found a feeling of?) complete ( internal?) protection for itself.

Q : Which is the 'ego' !

Q2 : But why doesn't thought realise that it is the problem ?

K : Because we have not faced this thing ! Nobody has faced this thing.
.................................

Here I now question and doubt for myself the reality that the brain has found complete protection for itself.....in thought...
this saying naturally comes to me when what I have seen about the analytical mind's functioning is checked as well as reading along k's lines..

Around myself I only see and meet people who are unsecured...totally unsecured..even with enough possession to feel so..behind the curtain of acting or not, self confidence lies the shadow of some sort of fear, anxiety, and the usual all shebang.

the unknown element here is, as I clearly see it, what is unconscious....k may have ( have) integrated the unconscious so that for himself there is only what is conscious, this is a not so wild guess based on his words
..

the unconscious out of many cravings issued from thought process contains what the thought program is, like working for some sort of continuity, then it inevitably meets death when checking any continuity of any desire

this should have a great effect of thought if ?? it should prevent this craving for continuity to flourish in mental fields where "I" would now seek absolute haven and heaven as not only it works at making tools and means to survive but by wrongly expanding itself into fields where it must not go ,the sorrow or pain so created should immediately indicates a wrong doing, and if I am right , in my case I am, then by leaving this sensation alone somehow without any single thought to overcome or even solve it, I am going to live it and so will I see what takes place ,as what happens after living sorrow is always unknown.. ,...in other words death, as a mental activity within thought creates a warning as a signal(pain,fright,fear etc etc) to suggest that possibly any craving for continuity as a mental desire is wrong..nothing wrong if the house stands for centuries of course..

In that case death is not a root problem, craving for continuity is not far from it, the functioning of thought itself is, in such field..
Without having some insightful clues about thought functioning through self revelation(insight) , by no means can I understand any of that so seeing it solved ....

What I may now so far is that sorrow generally-mostly but not only has roots which are located in what is unconscious ..some are very superficial too, like: what ? no salt in the soup!! that unforgivable !!This is how it appears to the superficial mind, yet it may not even be that, it all could come from what is unconscious unsolved problems, which are creating a terrible frustration in pain, so that anything happening even in the superficial would be taken as a deep huge problem, like "no salt in the soup that is horrible", when in fact again it would be the unconscious unseen sorrow which would be giving a sour taste to absolutely anything thought superficial or not is touching...

in other words, the unconscious has many keys...vital ones...there is not an unconscious as such ,but there is one for the superficial analyser...when one lives in that corner only..well: good luck !! ...as I did only of course for so many long years..

this is why sorrow has a specific role to play, this is my view and experience only..as a catalyst agent helping the process of revealing the unconscious as it wishes...this shows roots' origins of some unsolved problems creating a sort of pain and to be honest kind of " OK that is life and so what? not worthy at all !! "

this is precisely because all this is usually totally ignored, like what sorrow is, what the unconscious power is or juts even its existence which to be honest for most people is only a myth, the malfunctioning of the brain..the absence of relief, the dictatorship of thinking, etc etc..and insecurity....

thought has just totally by passed its area of "expertise", yet even in this field it can really be a total disaster too..look at fukushima, car crashes, pollution of the body with chemicals so sickness and cancers, and all of it...

then k says : Careful now, listen to it : the brain is reluctant to go into this because it may loose complete security. As it has lived in time, it has worked in time, it has brought about (its own continuity in ?) 'time', in that (the brain has found a feeling of?) complete ( internal?) protection for itself.

So I agree with what you added here John, as it seems to be the case that the brain has found a feeling of security...only, but not security at all...

and secondly not to forget this vital point that usually such analytical only life is all what thought knows, it knows nothing else..

death makes it insecure because thought has no capacity to deal with anything unknown, which death is and secondly death prevents the absolute craving for continuity

each analysing, keeps going on unconsciously too, this is usually not known so perceived, then any analysed desire meets its death....all of them..when thought by nature seeks for continuity..

there is an absolute incompatibility between thoughts activities and the whole of life..so in the absence of a supposed or known "other process" in our lives we are condemned to insecurity even if possessing the entire planet and anything which is on it..

All this is unknown to most people, I bring it here as fact and not as judgement

bottom line I have not one clue why I do this and that.....and I keep doing it blindly.....

Thought life cannot be secured, why would it be ?

I think that it is not a matter of physical security quite easy to reach by working together and sharing...thought cannot have that basic attitude , this is not its business..its business is a bout counting, adding,storing,forecasting...etc and if there is not an element to show thought that if done in wrong fields it is then a disaster,why would it stop doing that,especially is sorrow creating by such conduct is escaped...so that "I" never ever learn about all that..

this is such a bloody catch 22 we are caught in..

what a pity...:-((

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 23 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #79
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K : There's (an inner) discipline which is order.Look : my urge is to tell you something ; He( K) does it every other day, he feels intensely ; but will you listen ? That's all he says : For God's sake, please listen ! And you say : sorry, I have got my wife, my job, my family. I listen because it sounds very nice theoretically...

Q : Yes, but is he intrinsically capable of listening in the state in which he presently is ?

K : Of course, sir, when you are in a crisis, you listen. When someone near to you dies , you listen damn well ; you are shocked by it. You are in a state of concentrated energy.

Q : Yes, because that suffering is affecting me within the field.

K : No ! It is challenging you to question the field ! It is challenging you to say
For God's sake, what is this ? Why am I going through this ? Why is everybody going through this ? But you (usually) say : I need comfort, it must be somewhere- and you're off !
We've got plenty of (such ) challenges, all the time. I am challenging you right now, but you wouldn't even listen...

Q : If it was voluntary, I would listen !

K : Then, don't listen ! Carry on, knowing that you are living in a field where nothing good is going to flower !

Q : When you see that, I think the 'carrying on' will become even more difficult....

K That's all ; But he won't listen to that, he is already arguing that there is something good in the field : Gandhi has done some good, and Mrs Gandhi has done some good and Hitler has not done good...He didn't listen to what is being said.
...........................

Well that is what I would call a serious reprimand...is not it ?

and he is talking to some fine scientist....for me it is OK as I never had any admiration for anyone so it is fine..but to them such talk must have been a shock afterwards back to usual life...where they are perceived by themselves and others as a part of some sort of elite of this planet....

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #80
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 147 posts in this forum Offline

Yes...'colossal laziness' and 'need for comfort' and 'reward and punishment' has been ringing in my head!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #81
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes...'colossal laziness' and 'need for comfort' and 'reward and punishment' has been ringing in my head!

Hello the other Dan...

well yes it does, but is it so simple ? I don't think so....

I think that one main factor is quasi ignorance of what oneself is, of what sorrow is, of what is going on, on what desire are etc etc etc so basically what is life all about? and of what am I suppose to do or not to do with all that..as it is written nowhere...

if what we have done with life generally speaking ,I mean what mankind has made of it, for me a disaster at all levels..apart from machines but really and so what ?? if I find this totally appalling , insane, demented,cruel etc etc then maybe will I find with much luck something else than this nonsense...

laziness ,comfort , etc comes after when I am totally stuck in such no life so in pain , in sorrow etc etc trying to make something at least comfortable out of it..

cheers..

PS: in my worse ever time at least I was considering life as holidays...constructive holidays with nature...walking, meeting people,sharing,voluntary cooperation so of sharing of course as they go together.. etc etc ..and certainly not competition which means elimination ,achieving, reaching , eliminating others so war..all this is WAR...that is utterly insane..the entire occidental world is drowning into that ,what a mess !!(started some 2500 years ago at least for me) ..as for the rest possible they do go that way..yet..something seems to happen..

And I do not give any right to anyone to touch this....somehow it has worked quite well but must add that I am very stubborn when it comes to that, I would stand for that minimum in my life, ready to face consequences for such conduct,which i did..and for the deeper moments, well this is something else , so another story...much told by k and possibly others too..

cheers.

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 23 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #82
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

All what we talk about here, under the guide line made by k ,has a direct incidence too on the outer, of course it has, ....when such a journey within has started, one of the first thing to be insightfully perceived is that there is no competition at all but an insane process of elimination directed by the ones willing to eliminate in order to win, all this having deep roots in the thought process functioning, so program itself!! from the whole Universe down to one me, this is just a slow suicide, something which had been said by k too somewhere....the deep nature of what we are is clearly not the one of our so called ancestors, this is something that k did not see, as he goes along with the darwinian bullshit....

if our past was totally clean in peace and bliss we would surely be in the very same mess, as what matters is what is missing in us..giving full power to a blind to the global tool that thought is..

what i have seen for me is that it is the absence of some capacities which are there but turned off which is creating our insane conduct and life , it has strictly nothing to see with the past whatever this past is..

of this I am not sorry to sat that it is in the obvious ....

I still do not see any other way than to go through sorrow without any expectation when it is there..because sorrow has the capacity as a catalyst to reveal the unconscious when it is lived , it is part of its job to help here, a capacity which the full and total bliss when totally connected does not reveal....

so there seem to be at least two major steps,one is the proper dealing with what is wrong in the analytical life so in thought in sorrow....and the second is what is happening when thought somehow is not in the way....but here it is already fee of sorrow,fear and all of it...

when I rethink about this, which is something I lived ,it is not guessing or intellectual I say for god sake what a mess have we created,!!!worse is impossible ...

If so, we are touching the bottom of it....mentally we clearly are...

I am 60, since 10 years old ish, this is my feeling...then I felt that some of today’s quote would fit in here

the building is crumbling, the walls are giving way, there is a fire destroying it. You must leave the building and start anew in a different place, with different values, with different foundations. But those who are making a profit out of education, whether the State or the individual, will go on, because they do not see the destruction, the deterioration, the degradation. But those who really see the whole catastrophe, not just in a few spots, but the world over, have to strip themselves of everything and start anew. I don't mean stripping off the outward knowledge, the technical knowledge. I know it can never be stripped off; but you can strip yourselves inwardly, see yourselves as you are, your ugliness, your brutality, your ruthlessness, your deceptions, your dishonesty, your utter lack of love. Seeing all that, you can start anew, and become honest, clear, simple, direct. Surely, only then is there a possibility of a new world and a new order. Peace does not come through patch-work reform. Peace does not come through mere adjustment of things as they are. Peace comes only when we understand what is, beyond the superficial. Peace can come into being only when the wave of destruction, which is the wave of our own action, is stopped. Sirs, how can we have love? Not through the pursuit of the ideal of love, but only when there is no hatred, when there is no greed, when there is consideration, when there is generosity; but a man who is occupied with exploitation, with greed, with envy, can never know love. When there is love, systems become of very little importance. When there is love, there is care, there is consideration, not only for the children, but for every human being

it is so simple.......

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 23 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #83
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

A few K anecdotes from P Krishna's book A Jewel on a silver platter

In the early 80's K enterd the TS campus at Adyar for the first time after 48 years . He was walking with Radha Burnier by the Garden of rememberance, where the ashes of many TS leaders are buried. At the entrance to the garden K stopped and said : Somethinghas been altered here !
So Radhaji went to John Coates who was the president at that time, who said that there was an architect who came fromEurope and wanted to improve the setting of the gardenWhen he tried to move one of the pillarshe found a boxcontaining several jewels kept inside the pillar. Later K saidThat's it, those jewels were magnetised by me and Amma for the protection of the TS and placed thereThey should never have been removed.
Radhaji offered to bring them to K to magnetis them again. K said, No, they are useless now. But you can bring a new set of jewels and I will magnetise them again and we should place them elsewhare in the societyand they will protect. So this was done

Narayan recollected that once K came to the Rishi Valley campus , walked around it and said. Narayan, I'm not getting the right vibration from that hill Tell me what is wrong in Rishi Valley ?
Narayan said ' »Sir, the teachers are divided in two groups and are 'fighting' with each other That's it ! Said K

In 1948 Achyut Patwardhan was alone with K in a cottage in the Himalayas ; One day, K told him
Achyut, your entire life lies before me like an open book : the past, the present and the future ! Tell me, how did you happen to kill someone when youwere 22 ? Achyut said, Yes it is true, I was driving a car when suddenly a villager came in front of it and I could not stop before the car hit himWe took him to the hospital but could not save him. But nobody knows this, soo, how did you know ?. K smiled and replied : Itis all written some place !

One day K was going with Radha Burnier in her car when he suddenly asked her : ' Do you believe in Masters, Radhaji ?'
He replied : No, not like this You know what it meant to Amma ? She would give her life for it !
Knowing that, , now tell me, do you believe in the (existence of?) Masters ?
'Yes' said Radha emphatically. K held her hand and said 'Good !'

A question was put to K in 1926 : Q : Sir, is reincarnation a fact ?

K : Sir, reincarnation happens to be a fact for me, as I remember certain things, but I do not want you to 'believe' in it !

One day K said : 'You know, sir, all the sorrow in the world is because we have never loved from the bottom of out heart !'

Mr Grohe and his wife bought a house in Ojai and he told K : ' I spent a lot of money buying this wonderful house here , but we are not able to get (a quiet) sleep in it.
K said : You take me there and I will set it right so that you will be able to sleep' K went in the room and 'did someting' to it . Next day he asked Friederich : Were you able to sleep 
Yes, sir, but I wonder if it's not someting up here (in my head) . K said : 'Me too, sir' !

At a Foundation meeting in 86 someone started asking K a question with ' Sir, when you walked out of the TS...' K suddenly interrupted him :
' Just a minute, Sir, let me make it very clear : I never walked out of the TS. They diid not want me there'

In another KFI meeting in Jan 86 K was talking to the trustees about Creation :
' Sir, it all started from the tiniest of points. All this which we see around came from there'

One day K was asked at the end of a dialogue : ' Sir, don't you think all these dialogues tend to become just an intellectual activity ?
K answered ' Where is even the intellect, sir ? It is not a first rate intellect !'

When once asked why is it so difficult to understand his teaching he replied :
' The teachings are not 'out there' in a book. You are not (supposed to) understand the teachings ; you are to understand yourself. The teachings are only a means of explaining the necessity of understanding ourselves. What the speaker says acts as a mirror in wwhich you can look at yourself. When you look at yourself in that mirror, the mirror will not be important. You will be able to throw it away'

Once K was asked to summarise his entire teaching in one sentence. He said : ' Attempt, without effort to live with death in timeless silence'

One day K was asked : Sir , I've read in your biographies that you were very shy as a young man ; how did you overcome it ? He replied : I have not overcome it, sir, I am still shy !

Once K was invited to witness a play staged by the students from Rajghat. K told PK in private:
'They have invited me to see the play this evening. You know how I hate these things, but I will go !'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 24 Jul 2015 #84
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
I spent 4 days at typing it, but it was a totally worthwhile endeavour. I'll keep posting other excerpts but this was definitely the essence of it

Yes please go on John and thanks of course..

This morning I was wondering what life would be if only the analyser was not dictating everything...would we still have complex machines, planes, nano technology , factories, selling stuff to make people sick and same company selling possible cure , pollution by chemicals,radioactivity, noise, etc etc

not sure we would have that,when it appears now impossible to have life without all that technique...especially for those living in town and doing no work related by this "togetherness" used too in fields for production of vital needs... so practically 90% of the planet..

as when the analyser does not lead all those may or may not exist to the extend we know it, or to the totalitarianism we know it...as this is not the point, the point being the frame of the brain mind..the state of mind so..then anything else finds its right place......

and for sure when the analyser is not dictating there is no competition hiding in fact the analytical eliminating process basic program(choice) for concepts so not to be used on people and in mental fields of course, no division with oneself so with the entire universe, no business, no war, no poverty nor wealth , no hierarchy, no comparison, no value given, and a relative security brought by the togetherness...and a sort of global sense of art, art for me being a relative notion ONLY of "nicely done", "beauty", a sort of natural global "good job" at all levels....but not any more a quest for an impossible absolute as it is now for the poor analyser,still seeking for an impossible way out of its misery ,an impossible task as it never will get that it is the core problem with the absence of some other capacities by itself....as we do try to only reject sorrow like we reject anything else blindly and automatically, an awakening seems to me not possible in those conditions..

tu sum this up: I feel awful ?? great!!! that is THE good start,something is at work to push me/anyone on the right track..will I listen ??

of course not is what usually happen...

the difficult part of that seems to be that I am going to be entirely lost for a while and around that there is a lot of unknown,an unknown that again the analyser is not able to deal with as it analyses only the recorded past....no psychological landmarks or so few are sometimes left, death is a constant probability as soon as there is planning and continuity involved , i see all about the rat race, i get all what is happening on the planet, all the crimes due to my own conduct too etc etc .

One word on what is recorded, it is only a tiny superficial fraction of "what is" which is recorded, the superficial part of it, plus what is rejected, so that at the end of the day it is so logical to become specialised in one single part of this immensity of possible subjects...
this is why limitation is a problem....I guess that there is no life as one only , as acting as we were not totally interdependent is THE mistake of course....we are told that so we believe it blindly by not even properly using the analytical program which is not that bad when used to its limits by just properly using this yes/no and I do not know..conclusions...

so much for the self glory of "me" ....

the turning on of our other capacities seems the problem.....so far what I get is that "I" necessarily have the last word in its field to agree for some X reasons to let its dictatorship so arrogance wither away in one go....

well......??

blah blah is easy ,then what?

Well what can be radically changed right now is clearly the relation I am having with others..if this is radically changed then bit by bit all materialistic aspects will find their right place of course....

Of course there is the temptation to add here: so must radically be changed this sort of bizarre relation I pretend to have with whatever is myself which i see as a global running away combined with some reaching...of which I have no clue about.

So me X by 7 billion is by all means using others to do so....

me is just a tool....science the new god of some too, they don't have any answers for our mental problems
.........................................

k: Most of us do not want to be intensely aware, it is too disturbing

Questioner: How is it possible to be intensely aware while one is occupied with a particular job?

Krishnamurti: I do not see the difficulty. Why can't one be intensely aware while doing the job? Whether the job is mechanical, scientific, or bureaucratic, in being intensely aware while you are doing that job, you will not only do it more efficiently but you will also begin to be aware of why you are doing it, what are the motives behind your work. You will find out if you are afraid of your boss; you will observe how you talk to your underlings and to those above you. Being intensely aware in your relationship with others, you will know whether you are creating enmity, jealousy, hatred; you will see all your own responses in relationship, whether you are here, in a bus, in your office, or in the factory. All this is implied in intense awareness.
Also, if you are intensely aware, you might give up your job. Therefore, most of us don't want to be intensely aware;it is too disturbing; we would rather continue with what we are doing, even if it is very boring. At best, we break away from that which bores us and find a job which is less boring, but this too soon becomes routine.

So, we are caught in habit: the habit of going to the office every morning, the habit of smoking, the sexual habit, the habit of ideas, concepts, the habit of being an Englishman, and so on. We function in habit. To be intensely aware of habit has its own danger, and we are afraid of danger. We are afraid of not knowing, of not being certain There is great beauty, there is great vitality, in not being certain. It is not insanity to be completely insecure; it doesn't mean that one becomes psychotic. But none of us want that. We would rather break one habit and create a more pleasant habit.

Collected Works, Vol. XIII,212,Choiceless Awareness

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 24 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Jul 2015 #85
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

K Anecdotes

In the early 80's K enterd the TS campus at Adyar for the first time after 48 years . He was walking with Radha Burnier by the Garden of rememberance, where the ashes of many TS leaders are buried. At the entrance to the garden K stopped and said : Somethinghas been altered here !
So Radhaji went to John Coates who was the president at that time, who said that there was an architect who came fromEurope and wanted to improve the setting of the gardenWhen he tried to move one of the pillarshe found a boxcontaining several jewels kept inside the pillar. Later K saidThat's it, those jewels were magnetised by me and Amma for the protection of the TS and placed thereThey should never have been removed.
Radhaji offered to bring them to K to magnetis them again. K said, No, they are useless now. But you can bring a new set of jewels and I will magnetise them again and we should place them elsewhare in the societyand they will protect. So this was done

Narayan recollected that once K came to the Rishi Valley campus , walked around it and said. Narayan, I'm not getting the right vibration from that hill Tell me what is wrong in Rishi Valley ?
Narayan said ' »Sir, the teachers are divided in two groups and are 'fighting' with each other That's it ! Said K

In 1948 Achyut Patwardhan was alone with K in a cottage in the Himalayas ; One day, K told him
Achyut, your entire life lies before me like an open book : the past, the present and the future ! Tell me, how did you happen to kill someone when youwere 22 ? Achyut said, Yes it is true, I was driving a car when suddenly a villager came in front of it and I could not stop before the car hit himWe took him to the hospital but could not save him. But nobody knows this, soo, how did you know ?. K smiled and replied : Itis all written some place !

One day K was going with Radha Burnier in her car when he suddenly asked her : ' Do you believe in Masters, Radhaji ?'

He replied : No, not like this You know what it meant to Amma ? She would give her life for it !
Knowing that, , now tell me, do you believe in the (existence of?) Masters ?
'Yes' said Radha emphatically. K held her hand and said 'Good !'

A question was put to K in 1926 : Q : Sir, is reincarnation a fact ?

K : Sir, reincarnation happens to be a fact for me, as I remember certain things, but I do not want you to 'believe' in it !

One day K said : 'You know, sir, all the sorrow in the world is because we have never loved from the bottom of out heart !'

Mr Grohe and his wife bought a house in Ojai and he told K : ' I spent a lot of money buying this wonderful house here , but we are not able to get (a quiet) sleep in it.
K said : You take me there and I will set it right so that you will be able to sleep' K went in the room and 'did someting' to it . Next day he asked Friederich : Were you able to sleep 
Yes, sir, but I wonder if it's not someting up here (in my head) . K said : 'Me too, sir' !

At a Foundation meeting in 86 someone started asking K a question with ' Sir, when you walked out of the TS...' K suddenly interrupted him :
' Just a minute, Sir, let me make it very clear : I never walked out of the TS. They diid not want me there'

In another KFI meeting in Jan 86 K was talking to the trustees about Creation :
' Sir, it all started from the tiniest of points. All this which we see around came from there'

One day K was asked at the end of a dialogue : ' Sir, don't you think all these dialogues tend to become just an intellectual activity ?
K answered ' Where is even the intellect, sir ? It is not a first rate intellect !'

When once asked why is it so difficult to understand his teaching he replied :
' The teachings are not 'out there' in a book. You are not (supposed to) understand the teachings ; you are to understand yourself. The teachings are only a means of explaining the necessity of understanding ourselves. What the speaker says acts as a mirror in wwhich you can look at yourself. When you look at yourself in that mirror, the mirror will not be important. You will be able to throw it away'

Once K was asked to summarise his entire teaching in one sentence. He said : ' Attempt, without effort to live with death in timeless silence'

One day K was asked : Sir , I've read in your biographies that you were very shy as a young man ; how did you overcome it ? He replied : I have not overcome it, sir, I am still shy !

Once K was invited to witness a play staged by the students from Rajghat. K told PK in private:
'They have invited me to see the play this evening. You know how I hate these things, but I will go !'

Once, When Radha B told K that the government is trying to acquire some land belonging to the TS
and she felt helpless, K said ' I will have to apply my Great Mind to it !

On one occasion someone asked K:I am very enthusiastic about creating the kind of education you have spoken about. Tell me the best way to collect money to make a K school. K replied : ' Don't collect money, sir, you will end up in managing the money'

Someone wanted to donate a piece of land to the Foundation to start a school. K asked him : ' Do you think they deserve it, sir?'

Rajesh Dalal told K : Sir, I want to distance myself from you in order to come upon Truth. K replied 'Yes, but what if that way you don't come upon truth either ?'

When someone tried to blame Rajagopal for the rift, K said :
Sir, I will have no one talk ill of R behind his back. He has the right to be what he is and it is not a personal matter between him and me. If it was, I would deal with it myself, I would not ask for your help. The real issue is this : People have given a lot of donations for the work of the world teacher and R is using the money for other purposes. We are now appealing to the same people for more donations and they are asking : What happened with the donations we gave previously ? We owe them an explanation and if you feel responsible as trustees, please talk with himand find out.
Unfortunately my relationship withhim has become such that I cannot talk to him even for 5 minutes without his losing his temper and shouting at me.'

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Jul 2015 #86
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The understanding of the nature of what you are, without any reactions to what you discover you are, is the beginning of austerity. The awareness, of every thought, every feeling, like watching a bird in flight - that watching brings about an extraordinary sense of austerity that goes beyond all the fooling around with this ideas of self- improvement and self-fulfilment. In this watching there is great freedom and in that freedom there dignity of austerity. But ( unfortunately?) if you said all this to a 'modern' group of students or children, they would probably look out of the window in boredom because the world is bent on its own pursuit of pleasure.

Hello John, i was back to this....

Talking for myself, this "watching", that k is talking about is not the one I-we usually know in normal life, the one lead by all of us, he is talking about something very different....of a part of the missing process, at least this is my view on that.

I see my own students at home caught in such process of entertainment,which is totally unavoidable yet I am banning since 15 years TV,radio false main news and so on for myself so for them, so no advertising at all and an intense and concerned presence in times of trouble, as this is where "something" deeply different and interesting may happen; pursuit of pleasure yes like the old man in fact, but was it so different some 2500 years ago deeply at the level of the bottom brain mind? I don't think so, what we live today is only the continuity of the same day again and again..with superficial variations ..not long ago I catch a text by Socrates talking about the children of his time, it could have been written yesterday..

what we live are just the convolutions of the analytical mind since ages, caught in its own making, its own trap, lost , in suffering, pretending that all is fine because it even fears to acknowledge that its life is a perfect nonsense so is terrified to admit that, as it sees that if it does such thing, it is going to be destroyed...which is what must be done, but does not want to do!! but for me all human have not been like that since our beginning..many civilisations show that man had been totally different mentally, like what is left of the native Indian for example but not only of course and far from it..

You know to be a leader you need to want it, who is willing to do that and on what bases? From ages only the thieves and violent people mainly to gain on the collective work would go for it, today some call them pervert narcissistic or just psychopath ,and we keep stubbornly working for such people but why ? we are not so different, this is why !!! so they lead us, and we do not act against as we have nothing really different to say..after all don't we all, apart from exceptions ,want the same as they do...?? that is a terrible assessment..as it brings leaders and followers as being deeply and basically the same type of person, all fighting which necessarily bring the worse in charge and not the good man of course...the children of the divisive analytical mind.....our failure and disaster.

Here incidentally I am so questioning authority,all authority,any aspect of it, apart the firm but gentle and caring one needed when it comes to children.......as I see it, we are not adults mentally in fact..so we see in ourselves what result gives a perverted child mind..

and so on, all this have roots in one single brain mind which has lost possible 80% of its capacities...X by 7 billion,less one or two every 2500 years..wow !!

--Back to the future is now and changing yourself changing the world...all is definitively linked...the democratic coalition for peace and freedom bombs will again kill today somewhere there is something to be stolen, now using false "east-slamic" mercenaries to hide itself of course, because itself it is more ashamed of its insane conduct and do not want the flock (us)to realise how mad they are!!!, for my comfort today, those bombing are "me" too....and I know it deeply, this is why I am terribly concerned too..for others, for those dying because of me today, whether in bombing, by organised starvation, out of hopelessness, tortures,.........I am the killer too....:-(

sounds as if it was lost is not it ???

Well , that is" what is" , this hopeless situation is the present what is...what is factual with "what is" when you have learnt to live it with no expectation of any kind ,this is learnt when dealing properly with sorrow, is that the problems are going to be solved....if they are lived....that is a great catch 22 again because to be able to live "what is" instead of out usual running away, for myself I have learnt that I must not intend to solve anything as a divided analytical "I" ...as soon as I have such intention, it is again the divisive analyser which is at work and again will mess it up all as usual..that is the trick , I must not try to solve anything...but learn to live the situation only...this is where for me is the vital trick..from which all will follow then as it wishes...

it seems to me that "me" needs" to be totally stuck...if so we are reaching a vital moment....

will we live it, or escape from it ??

As a "we" being global I have no clue, as a personal "I" well it is entirely up to me....

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 25 Jul 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 25 Jul 2015 #87
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
A question was put to K in 1926 : Q : Sir, is reincarnation a fact ?

K : Sir, reincarnation happens to be a fact for me, as I remember certain things, but I do not want you to 'believe' in it !

Hello John, I have no view at all on reincarnation, not an once of any seeing....

John Raica wrote:
He replied : No, not like this You know what it meant to Amma ? She would give her life for it !
Knowing that, , now tell me, do you believe in the (existence of?) Masters ?
'Yes' said Radha emphatically. K held her hand and said 'Good !'

yes ,that is a quite unknown part of k words...I do not now myself...yet I have nothing against as a possibility says what I have lived, but I do not know.

John Raica wrote:
On one occasion someone asked K:I am very enthusiastic about creating the kind of education you have spoken about. Tell me the best way to collect money to make a K school. K replied : ' Don't collect money, sir, you will end up in managing the money'

:-))

John Raica wrote:
When someone tried to blame Rajagopal for the rift, K said :
Sir, I will have no one talk ill of Rajagopal behind his back. He has the right to be what he is and it is not a personal matter between him and me. If it was, I would deal with it myself, I would not ask for your help. The real issue is this : People have given a lot of donations for the work of the world teacher and R is using the money for other purposes. We are now appealing to the same people for more donations and they are asking : What happened with the donations we gave previously ? We owe them an explanation and if you feel responsible as trustees, please talk with him and find out.
Unfortunately my relationship with him has become such that I cannot talk to him even for 5 minutes without him losing his temper and shouting at me.'

when, if and that is a pretty huge big if, the other capacities will be back to functioning, there will be no more money..something totally unimaginable for the analyser , which works is , by set up, to permanently give values to make tools and means to survive with each "myself" as the centre of the Universe...nothing more and nothing less...

thanks for all this John, i find it as part of the all of what k was...I personally have been seeing much of that in the 2 biographies and in early writings too...I think like you do ,that it is worthy for someone interested in k to read all of it...as here and there ,there often is an apparent tiny anodyne sentence illuminating a whole book sometimes....

As you mention, this happens more in some "meditative state" of course, so is not of the superficial analyser..

cheers...

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 26 Jul 2015 #88
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

A Professor Krishna interview with Achyut Patwardhan in March 1988 :

Q : Why do you think K left the TS ?

AP : The TS provided a very good intellectual perspective for preparing the mind for understanding him, but the idea of the World Teacher was personalised by saying that K is going to be this world teacher. This created a climate of belief and disbelief and I shall believe and all that. It had nothing to do with (self-) understanding but it was dependent upon the revelations brought by Annie Besant. The matter became further complicated when various cults grew up of people who were near to AB and those close to K and by the hierarchical order of spiritual progress. So an atmosphere was created in which faith had submerged reason. This reached a point of absurdity when AB anounced that the World Teacher had chosen certain persons to be his closest disciples and the word 'Apostles' was used and they were claimed to be 'Arhats' . Also this atmosphere of a chosen few was not conducive to the freedom K was talking. So the gulf was widening and it seems that even Leadbeter did not coroborate what she said, by saying that some of the named 'arhats' were not even initiates. But K questioned this whole edifice of faith which has begun to dominate the TS and he just blew it by a breath and it collapsed like a castle of cards. So the break from TS was inevitable and I think it was good that K freeed himself of it.

Q : What was the impact of his decision on AB ?

AP : She must have been dismayed. She fell ill but she was willing to go with him to whatever extent it was possible- she even closed down the Esoteric Section. And when she opened it again it was clear that it was for those who could not go along with K the whole way and she felt she could not leave them in the lurch

Q : What do you think of Leadbeter's prediction that K would be the manifestation of a divine entity-called Maitreya ? Or was K an ordinary being like us ?

AP : There's no doubt in my mind that Leadbeter had an extraordinary moment of clairvoyant insight when he discovered the young boy and said 'I have not met another human being with si little ego dominating as in him'. When they named it as Maitreya it was because the TS had its own mythology where a big place is assigned to Lord Maitreya. It is not possible for us to verify this but undoubtly K was a 'channel' through which a tremendous Cosmic Energy – which is also insight and compassion- flowed throughout his life.

Q : But was he before his mystical 'experience' in 1922 an ordinary being with an ego, with self interst, attachments sorrow and conflict- and then moved out of that or he was out of it right from the beginning ?

AP : I think that K was undoubtly an extraordinary human being and he must have had moments of ordinariness and moments of transcendence. But the important thing is that his body was capable of receiving and holding such a force which any normal being would not be capable of holding. As he himself said, the brain had to be 'prepared for it' and he had to pass through a period of novitiate in which he ( they?) prepared the body to be strong enough to sustain this. It required extraordinary purity and goodness and I think he had both these qualities in abundant measure. Whether you differentiate that Cosmic Energy from the body is not important because there is such a thing as the 'body elemental' which does its normal operations K put in a more direct way : When this is , 'That' is not' So he had moments of total subsidience of his own consciousness as a separate individual and therefore his teaching is the manifestation of an Energy which is both Light and Wisdom.

Q : But my question is : If he he was in a sense a 'divine' being , why did he tell us that everybody can make the transformation in consciousness that he was speaking about ?

AP : I think that every ( spiritual) phenomenon like K is a paradox wrapped in mystery.. My feeling is that K wanted us to understand that he is he was expressing the human potential in its absolute, so he was not a 'freak' individual but a positive demostration of what the human principle is capable of. It is not to be taken personally but it has to be understood : what is man ?
The whole problem is that today we think that man is only the (physical) body – that's what any average man thinks, inspite of his 'beliefs'. He tried to show that the body is like a wonderfully tuned musical instrument. The 'music' that comes is not your own because the 'self' cannot even touch the infinitude of that 'music' . It is your business to perfectly 'tune-in' the musical innstrument to that (cosmic) harmony . I think he was a man who lived only in order to 'fabricate' ( perfect?) this instrument and to keep it in the very best condition a man who had absolutely no other wish or will of his own and no caprice. Everything that was inconsistent with this (purpose) was surgically cut out of his life. It was an 'extraordinary' life in the sense that he has shown what a (spiritually inclined ?) human being can get. I think that it is very important to see that 'truth' is not a continuum, and that freedom is not at the end of our evolution. I believe he's saying that moments of that ( spiritual clarity of?) 'Insight' can flash through any person who is capable of that elevated state where there is a total 'subsidience' of the 'self' ( identified consciousness )

PK : I have heard that K had healed several people of physical diseases just by touch ? Is this true ?

A : I had the occasion to talk to him about this. That he was able to heal people was first discovered by Annie Besant- she asked him to give her some massages and she received physical relief, and even for her eyes she received help when her sight was diminishing. Once he explained to me what this 'power of healing' is. He told the story of a man who took him by force, pulled him into a room and made him touch a spot on the spine where there was pain. He was 'healed', but within 6 months that man was in jail for some perversion ; so, K said that healing is a dangerous business because man's pains and ailments are related to his mind, and sometimes it is the mind that has to be healed (in the first place) , not the body. But K was uncompromising in saying that no other person can heal your mind- you must heal it yourself. But where it was a case of possession , some evil spirit dominating some person, he was able to rid him of that. He could just get the spirit out and say : Get out and don't touch this person again'. I have never seen him so sad as when he said to me ' Look, this chap is ill and I've healed him. He was living stupidly and I gave him a chance , but will he take the chance or he will go back and live as stupidly as before ? To him the pity of it was heartbreaking.
He accepted that healing was a fact, but he told me that healing powers are not a sign of spiritual insight. So, man may have healing powers though he may not have any spiritual enlightenment. And also he warned about using these powers for ends which are not desirable. When asked 'Have you got healing powers ? He said 'I don't know Then he told me that ''there is a moment when I am face to face with a person in sorrow and something happens'', some Compassion flows through his hand
and That does the healing.

Q : Coming to another enigma around him, one wonders how is it that a man with such (spiritual?) insight could not distinguish a wicked or fraudulent person from a sincere and truthful one and was often wronged in his own life ?

AP : He explained it like this : that if he wished he could see through a person. He could see the past the present and the future (of that person) if he so wished . But he said 'Just as if somebody is dressing in a dressing room and you turn your back, so I like to be utmost respectful of the people's private selvesand I have no desire to look into it.'

He said that once a woman came to him and said : ' Krishnaji you speak of (self-) images- do you see my 'image' ? He did not say anything, but the person insisted : 'You must be seeing it , so please let me see my 'image' . So K said something to give her a sketch of that 'self'-image . He said : ''That person never came to see me again.''

Q : Yes, if someone would reveal us totally we may not like to face that. But what do you think was the real reason for the break between K and Rajagopal ?

AP : It is a complex phenomenon and it cannot be explained. I 've found Rajagopal very opinionated and I found that he was kind of an impresario to K's 'prima donna' . K was incapable of managing his own affairs and more or less he has opted out of that. So he needed someone, but that someone could not manage him and anyone who thought he (or she?) could manage him, was out of the picture. I think K was a man who wanted nothing from anybody. He did not want anyone to form a 'sangha' (spiritual community?) and to further the teachings. He said : ''don't do anything for another unless it is an authentic expression of your own uniqueness''.

Q : May be he did not want to give any comfort to the 'ego' by accepting someone as a disciple or giving someone encouragement ?

AP : Not only that, but even about himself and about everybody else he said that an 'eternal vigilance' is absolutely essential and there is no knowing when a lapse will come unbecknown because that is the nature of the 'self' (to create and settle down in habits?)

Q : Do you think it was wise for K to leave behind him the organisations which now bear his name ?

AP : I think that Krishnaji has sown a seed, but he (his teachings?) need researchers dedicated to that in the utmost measure.

Q : Even if there were 5000 people in the hall, he said he was talking to each one individually. ; on the other hand he has created these 2 or three organisations (K-foundations) which are now to carry on the work. To many people it appears as a dicothomy .

AP : No, it has a very material aspect : He wanted the Teachings to be handed over to posterity undistorted and some 'guardians' (custodians?) who will see that his word is not twisted out of its context. Second part is to make the Teachings available to people who were not fortunate enough to listen to him and also to make available the ressources for 'listening'
But apart from this, that has set in motion a 'transcendental psychological laboratory' .
Once he said that a mother's love performs the miracle of transforming the body's plasma into milk.
He says that in the process, (of sharing insight) your brain cells will be transformed, as well as those of the student.

Q : You said that K could see the entire past, present and future of someone.. Does it mean everything is predestined ?

AP : No, no. He has explained it like this : whatever you are at this moment is that which has emerged out of the 'seed of the past' embedded in your psyche, but this is not a continuous (predestinated) process. So every moment of your life you are putting into the soil (of your consciousness?) the 'seeds' of your own doing

Q : Why is it that no-one has been able to make this radical transformation in consciousness he was talking about ?

AP : Annie Besant said that this (transformational) process should not be understood in the framework of one life's span. This is an ongoing destiny of many which is unravelling itself and you have a role to play. I think K has indicated : ''Don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation, but at every moment unbecknown to you if you can rise to the full stature of your manhood and negate the factor of the 'self' (centredness) then in the total communion with 'what is' there is a release'' . But don't try to hold it for 'that' (liberating experience?) is out of time.

Q : What would you say is really new or unique about K's Teaching ?

AP : I have pondered over this matter for years When I was studying the teachings of the Buddha I felt the tremendous potential for it, and that K has opened a (new) window to it. Several people who studied Vedanta and yoga said the same thing : that when you listen to K a 'window' opens, a clarity comes to your mind so that you could see more in it that you could have seen by yourself. Apart from that, K has some unique insights of his own (as « the observer is the observed »?)
The entire Teaching can be summed up in a single word -'attention'. I would say that the Ground of everything is this 'Cosmic energy' which renews itself and which is totally beyond our comprehension.. When it is expressed, it is (crystallised as) 'matter'. That energy is incomprehensible and it permeates everything. Now this energy passing through the human brain-which is subjected to the principles of pleasure, continuity and security- you can become conscious of it. Now K says that this faculty of 'attention' is not of the brain. Though it operates through the brain it is not of the brain. And this 'faculty' can see the biological reflexes , it can see what comes through the brain. So this 'attention' is really a 'flash' of the Cosmic Energy, like a high voltage (frequency?) is tied. We cannot (usually) touch this 'high voltage' (& frequency?) because we are on this 'low voltage' (self-controlled mode)

Q : Yes, so this has to end ?

AP : First you must see this whole phenomenon in its totality and 'do nothing' about it.. Now, with this (non-doing mind?) you turn away from all this without any 'achievement' or orientation. You are observing the sky, the sea without wanting anything, and sometimes in this communion with nature this whole (thought-time) process stops. But before it stops you have to come to the ( objective inner ) perception of a 'camera lens' which is an absolutely accurate recording without the desire to change 'what is' . The brain is only (passively) recording. In this state of 'only recording' there is a miracle (taking place) - the miracle of (total) attention. It is this 'attention' which- if you are able to put a foot on to it- is already free.

Q : Because then, that is the 'new' ?

AP : That is the 'new' . Now this is a teaching which I have not got anywhere else

Q : What do you thing it was K's aim in starting these schools ?

AP : You see, Annie Besant started with the feeling that you have to rear human beings who bear witness to this great process. If there are human beings who can be reared with affection , they may come and go independently but out of this harvest there is something that comes to you unsought. But as K said, the peasant who sows the seed in the soil must not pull it out to see if it is sprouting. So, what one does for man is an act of faith- not in this person (K) but in man. I think that very few people in these schools have grasped that underlaying all our efforts is this tremendous 'faith' of the man who sows the soil of the human mind and cultivates it , tills it, with his affection and dilligence and plants the ( spiritual) seed and offers it to God.

Q : Would you think that the physical absence of K is not a great deprivation for someone ?

AP : I would not say that, because even his physical presence could not impart that 'something' to you.

Q : Finally, any advice for those seriously interested in K's teaching ?

AP : I feel that you must observe without prejudice how a prejudice and a word born out of it can put a 'distance' (a barrier) between people .One must see that this wall between 'you' and'me' are created by my words. And I think this 'wall' can be washed only by the 'tears of the heart'. Unless you are washed in the tears of your heart- which brings you close to a sense of affection with those you are intimately working with , I don't think you can get anywhere.

This post was last updated by John Raica Sat, 01 Aug 2015.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 27 Jul 2015 #89
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 224 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
But K was uncompromising that no other person can heal your mind- you must heal it yourself. But where it was a case of possession , some evil spirit dominating some person, he was able to rid him of that. He could just get the spirit out and say : Get out and don't touch this person again. I have never seen him so sad as when he said to me ' Look, this chap is ill and I've healed him. He was living stupidly and I gave him a chance , but will he take the chance or he will go back and live as stupidly as before ? To him the pity of it was heartbreaking.

Dan: amazingly by reading that, somehow it seems to me that the analyser, thought, the thinking process,"me" etc etc is no more at all even working properly in its field of competencies...because he drop the basic yes I know as an experimented fact, no I don't now as an experimented fact, and the last one which is I don't now anything about this or that..then it has brought at the same level facts, lies, hopes and desires, as well as illusions and so on, then it has abandoned facts to conceptually live in lies, hopes, illusions and desires, facts seem to have disappear...( grosso modo bien sur) it is more complex but for now this is enough to see

John Raica wrote:
I think K was a man who wanted nothing from anybody. He did not want anyone to form a 'sangha' (community?)( ensemble des pratiquants du bouddhisme) and to further the teachings. He said : don't do anything for another unless it is an authentic expression of your own uniqueness.

Dan: this gives me the feeling of walking alone , so being egotistic, which never meant to me using others ,to steal, to work for me only without caring for others etc etc I think that we are not at all egotistic but just conceptually running away from what the censor have chosen to reject and think we are reaching what the censor have chosen to reach,which is something which is in psychological fields absolutely non existent in fact..It seems that we may be living such illusion we take for real, but that there is nothing in it, it is empty...me is empty whatever clever name is given to this emptiness....in other words from other times: the sacred link had been broken,....we are empty shells..and since a while nuts shells as in nut bar.

then living psychologically alone, there is no master and no slave accepted, then I meet others at this level....in peace with me so with them.

John Raica wrote:
Q : Why is it that no-one has been able to make this 'radical) transformation in consciousness he was talking about ?

AP : Annie Besant said that this (transformational) process should not be understood in the framework of one life's span. This is an ongoing destiny of many which is unravelling itself and you have a rôle to play. I think K has indicated : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation, but at every moment unbeknown to you if you can rise to the full stature of your manhood and negate the factor of the 'self' then in the total communion with 'what is' there is a release . But don't try to hold it for that is out of time.

Dan: Again we have here the idea of time as in evolution, learning etc etc...just as religious as any other usual view from AB..things is the all society is so perverted and so insane at all levels, yet "we" find that normal because we are told so blindly believe, if this was so a fact, then for me it is clear that the Origin itself whatever it is is insane too...this was and is a deep seeing I have, so is not thinking.
K did indicated what AP mentions about : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation....effectively I have lived this episode to try even for less than a split second to hold it, or rather precisely to wish that it goes on so to try to give it continuity !! now the present fact is that "it" never came back to the immense extend it was there...no reason to cry, but the necessity to get the point that there is work to do with oneself...my life is a piece of a disaster...what is wrong ,what is that? going into that somehow must be done...the walk is not easy because not only will I meet my own psychological illusions which I call life which is possible indeed, but I become at the same time too ,terribly aware of the outer as it is, more and more of it up to the point to get it practically entirely as it exactly is so I see all the interaction of it, like how school get one ready for war etc etc etc and this is the most destroying factor known in my own life, as I really can deal with the most profound psychological pain of mind, but when is seen the global picture of the insane disaster of man, wow...when you understand deeply it in your guts...and here there is no more matter of included/excluded has now this sounds utterly meaningless regardless to the crimes of man, this is hard to live it...as it can use all your energy left to just live it and cry out all your tears for a lifetime in one splits second..this is why I absolutely do not care at all about so called science,machines and all of that, because this is totally beside the vital point and would be a bit like bowing before any machine as being the only "meaning" of the entire unknown to us, universe..there is not an once of sanity in this...and some are proud of that..not knowing why they are proud of course, as such person has no clue about the functioning of the analytical program..

this brings us straight back to k : Self- knowledge...( Dan: insightfully revealed fact about the functioning of the analytical program..) does not demand accumulated knowledge. Accumulated knowledge becomes a burden to self- knowledge. Self- knowledge, the understanding of the total process of oneself, does not demand any previous knowledge. Previous knowledge about oneself brings misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Self- knowledge is constant movement without accumulation. This knowledge is from moment to moment, for self knowledge is a process of discovery of the activities of the self. Only when there is the process of accumulating knowledge, then it is in opposition to creative being........ Without self- knowledge, the god that you seek is the god of illusion; and illusion inevitably brings conflict and sorrow. Without self- knowledge, there can be no right thinking; and then all knowledge is ignorance which can only lead to confusion and destruction. Self- knowledge is not an ultimate end; it is the only opening wedge to the inexhaustible. ``Is not self- knowledge extremely difficult to acquire, and will it not take a very long time?''

John Raica wrote:
Now K says that this faculty of attention is not of the brain. Though it operates through the brain it is not of the brain. And this 'faculty' can see the biological reflexes , it can see what comes through the brain. So this 'attention' is really a flash of the Cosmic energy, like a high voltage (frequency?) is tied. We cannot (usually) touch this 'high voltage' (frequency?) because we are on this 'low voltage' (mode)..

Dan: quite clear in itself yes.

John Raica wrote:
AP : First you must see this whole phenomenon in its totality and 'do nothing' about it.. Now, with this (non-moving mind?) you turn away from all this without any 'achievement' orientation. You are observing the sky, the see without wanting anything, and sometimes in this communion with nature this whole process stops. But before it stops you have to come to the perception of a 'camera lens' which is an absolutely accurate recording without the desire to change 'what is' . The brain is only (passively) recording. In this state of only recording there is a miracle- the miracle of attention It is this 'attention' which- if you are able to put a foot on to it is already free.

Dan: yes no achievement or even orientation...I know it factually..something else that is not "me", "you" is clearly there , leading the "game" of life...as described here, so attention has definitively, in what "I for once not leading" factually lived, attention so has nothing at all in common with thinking so with analysing...NOTHING..something else is at work....

John Raica wrote:
AP I feel that you must observe without prejudice how a prejudice and a word born out of it can put a distance between people .One must see that this walk between you and me are created by my words. And I think this wall can be washed only by the tears of the heart. Unless you are washed in the tears of your heart- which brings you close to a sense of affection with those you are intimately working with , I don't think you can get anywhere.

again this "must observe without prejudices" seems to bring us right back to analysing only, so right to the creator of problems again in charge...must or must not are only analytical choices based on analytical unknown desires/fear...but is it a matter to get anywhere ? or is it a matter for the illusion of an analytical conceptual life, the concept does not know that it is a concept, ,a matter so for the illusion to be perceived out of the blue without searching for, so lived insightfully by "chance", incidentally as a side effect of something? if so what is that "something else" ???

Of course for me it is obvious that what we call pain, suffering,discontentment,boredom,fear,anxiety, and anything felt as bad for me is the only starting point,yet what am I supposed to do with that ??

then with a bit of "chance" again, even the things felt as "good for me" start to be questioned by themselves because it is seen that those too are roots for pain and more...some discovery process now seems to work by itself as it wishes....is it possible to help ? some say yes..

I am not there yet for myself, so I can't say anything here..

Dan ...........

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 28 Jul 2015 #90
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 650 posts in this forum Offline

Excerpts from a PK interview with Vimala Thakar in 1995

PK : Vimalaji, for all of us who have been students of K, both the man and his teachings are an enigma. When did you first come across K and what was the impact of this first meeting on your mind ?

V : I came across Shri J Krishnamurti in December 1956 at Rajghat, where I was a guest of Shri Achyut Patwardhan and his brother Rao SahebI was in Varanasi in con,nection with my lectures on Bhoodan (donation of land) but Achyutji asked me if I would like to attend K's talks. I have not heard the name but Achyutji' request was enough for me. I cancelled my talks and went to attend his talk. Krishnaji entered the room and the first impact of his presence was an indescribable integrity and purity of this person. There was no difficulty to understand his discourse, or 'dialogue' as he called it. It gave me the confirmation of many truths that I perceived but not understood clearly. I attended two talks and on the third day, at Rao Sahib's suggestion I went to see Krishnaj. The first three talks have moved me very deeply. There was nothing to ask. Every word was the breath of clarity and what he had to say was verbalised sanity. Our dialogue which lasted for one hour and a half was so free and frank that the young woman from a middle class Indian family had not imagined to be so affectionate and simple. At least twice someone entered the room to tell him that it was an hour, and he would say, Yes, sir, wait a little more. His glance could hold you spellbound ; there was such a depth in his looking that it reminded me of my communion with the oceans and one felt that the eyes were not focussed on you, but were seeing through you.

PK : We have heard that K healed you of your deafness in one of the ears ?

V : In 1959 I was returning from a visit to Nepal when a car accident took place and I hit my head against a tree trunk. There was profuse bleeding in my ear and was taken to hospital for an operation. When I returned to Kashi K was visiting the Rajghat centre of the 'Foundation for New Education' as it was then called.When he saw me in one of the meetings looking like a ghost of myself- after months in the hospital- he asked Achyutji : What's wrong with that lady ? And after he was told he said : send her to me. I went and he said : Look here, my mother used to say these hands have a healing energy. Shall we try ? It might work, it may not. I said, sir, if my ear gets healed I would feel obliged to you for the whole of my life He said : 'Oh, silly girl , I am not going to do anything to you ; it is the 'power'- it may work or not work. I felt relmuctan,t to accept his offer, but after 3 weeks Vinoba arrived and said Vimala, why did you refuse ? You have not asked for it. It would have been wrong for you to ask, but it was a spontaneous offer of love ; It is neither the person of K nor that of Vimala who are important in it. Will you go back and apologise to the great person ? Do you know what the energy of love is ? He does not even need to touch you. Haven,'t you read of the life of the Christ ? K 'is' that energy of Love.
So I went to him next day and apologised. K smiled with that beatific smile and said : Come tomorrow morning. So the sessions began : I would sit on a chair and he would stand behind me, put one hand on my heads and the other on my ear. I don't know what he did because by the tiime he would sit behind me there were vibrations of energy and my eyes would get closed without my knowingand they would open when he would come around and stand in front of me and say 'Vimalaji, open your eyes' The energy that I have experienced through the presence and the touch was something that I had not experieced before . Three sessions per week, I had six sessions in Varanasi. Then he said, come to Bombay, we'll have some more sessions there.In between those 2 months the bleeding had stopped after the first three or four sessions.The hearing had not returned but there was something like a movement in the artificial ear drum ( they had cut some skin from my hand and inserted as the artificial ear drum.Very faintly I began hearing faint sounds Then I went to Bombay in Pupulji's house and he gave me three more sessions. When I went for the fourth I said : Krishnaji, I can hear ! He said, You are not imagining it ? 'No sir, I can hear ! He was very glad, one could see the joy in his eyes : 'Oh yes, take it easy ; Don't talk about it to anyone' He gave me 2 more sessions and then asked me to go to the surgeon who operated and go through a test for audition. And give me the report before I leave Bombay. So I went to Pune for the test and the hearing recovered to 65 percent ; The doctor was stiunned : What have you been doing ? I said nothing but took the report to K and he was very happy.

PK Scientists today would regard it as a miracle.

V : I myself called it a miracle and so did the surgeon. And because they could not understand the phenomenon they sent me to London for another audition test. There was a 75 pc recovery !
So I told K about this report and asked : Sir, was this a miracle ? He said : What miracle ? What are you calling a miracle ? It is just an interaction between energies. It takes two to happen and it has happened. Why don't you keep it simple ? And you don't have to feel obliged to me ; I have not done anything . It has 'happened' . So I came back with this explanation 'interaction of energies' . One energy I cold understand : that of the extraordinary phenomenon called K- but the 'other' energy I did not know what he was refering to. But I thought it would be audacious to ask himagain, so I kept quiet. To me, whether you call it a 'miracle' or not is is an inexplicable phenomenon on the cerebral or rational level. It is non-rational.
Krishnamurti himself was more of a phenomenon than a person. Though I have not known him closely I understood that he was more of a (psychic?) phenomenon arising in response to the needs of human evolution, along with being a 'person'.

PK : But reading his biography one finds that he went through several illnesses and suffered a lot physically...

V : According to Yoga and Ayurveda, such healing powers cannot be used by the person for himself , or else they fade away

PK : Another mysterious happening is the 'process' which he went through at various periods of his life. Do you think this is the same (phenomenon) as the awakening of kundalini ?

V : No, the awakening of kundalini does activate unconditioned (psychic?) anergies in the body but not for a prolonged duration. It must have happened to him for 6 months of his early life in Ojai when they spread mattresses in the room- he would roll when not able to bear the intensity or the agony caused by the pain. Now for K as a personit seems to me that he was 'manipulated' by the Supreme Intelligence with the help of invisible powers or energies left into orbit of the Earth by exceptional human beings of spiritual attainments. So they must have found this boy in South India who had that completely innocent, vacant mind. That innocent mind was not passivity but blankness but a very rare quality So 'they' could shape this consciousness , refine and sensitised as the world was needing a (spiritual) teacher that neither belonged to the east or to the west, an unprecedently independent consciousness.So this person (in his own words) was used by these 'super-powers' . Sio thyere seem to be 2 'entities' – the boy with his family conditioning of hindu conditioning or indian racial consciousness and the other 'entity' was developped by the 'process'. He had not asked for it;but it was 'forced' upon him because of a cosmic need.. It was a very precious (mind) instrument that they came across. So he had to go through the totrture of that 'process' for a very long time. He did not need it for his transformation ; it was a 'sacrifice' made for the Supreme Intelligence.. I haven't come across a sannyasy like K.

PK : In the last tape recorded ion Feb 7 1986 he mentions that there was this 'supreme intelligence' that operated through the body and also the body was developped over a long period of timeand one may not find a body like this for another few hundred years

V : I think he was entitled to say so. I don't know about 'thousands years' but 'they' surely worked at it throughout his whole lifeI call it a 'torture' because he was of a poetic nature, so gentle, so sensituive, and the austerity that was demanded of his living was so sharp. And he had to live both. He had not mmuch time for himself to live the poetic gentleness, the humane aspect of his personality. I feel sympathetic for the person who went through all that.

PK : So you think that he had to sacrifice himself for completing the rôle of the world teacher ?

V : have no doubt about it , sir. May I mention an event which no one around me has known up to now ? I was a guest in England, of the family of Mary Lutyens in the 70's and one day I was given a bundle of letters written by K to Mary. Some book was in press and those letters would have been included in it. They were like any other love letter a young person would write to a girl that he loved.. Publishing thos letters in that stage of his work around the globe was something,my sensitivity could not stand So Ithrew them in the fireplace, willing to to go through any consequences. I wanted-not to 'save' but to help the teachings of K, the only teachings of sanity and clarity from 1930 onwards and the people who listened to his words could be misled. The human race- in all the countries- is stupid to a great extent- they would misdinterpret them, as if he had no right to love anyone or live a normal life. In one of the letters he had said : ' Why was I piched up, otherwise I could have married you ?' It is not relevant what I went through for doing that, but I don't regret having done it ! His life was a (personal) sacrifice since he was discovered by Leadbetter. Till 1925 perhaps he was not aware of that but after that what he did and withstood was a sacrifice gone through willingly at a great price for his emotional life.

PK : From some of his bios and his writings it seems that he was in contact with some 'divine' powers. Why then did he deny the Masters ?

V : Deny ? When and in which way ?

PK : He didn't publiclly acknowledge his contact the Masters, didn't wantr to.

V : Yes, sir he didn't acknowledge his contact with the 'invisible masters' as he would say with a little sarcastic smile on his lips- that was up to 1930 but between '25 and '30 he seems to have transcended these 'super' powersand was in communion with what he liked to call 'the supreme Intelligence' (the Lord?) - which I call the 'divinity of life'. Why he did not acknowledged or talked rather sarcastically – if not in a derogatory sense about the Masters was because of the 'milieu' surrounding the intellectual and scholastic world (of his time) . The organised religions have vulgarised these 'powers' and dragged them down to the level of being exploited by (personal) psychic ambitions and motivations. Maybe he was afraid that if he would acknowledge the Mastersthat would be a sanction given by him that he was the World Teacher' . That rôle he had to play, everything was set for itands he could not budge an inch from it.So perhaps he did not want to use that divine sanction. His was a 'scientific' spirituality .

PK : Can it be due to the realisation, at the time of his brother's death that these messages from the Masters can sometime be mistaken because one's own imagination can distortthe message or even create a message where none existed?There fore it is necessary first to free oneself of the distortions of the ego ? Rather than try to have communication with 'super' powers ,

V : Yes, you have put it rightly . But prior to that journey, that event of the Flame of the Buddha entering the centre between the eyebrowswas a very significant, mysticalevent. So the transcendence from the clutches of the 'super' powers and and the communion came about through the interaction between what he calls the 'flame' – what I call the Buddha Consciousness- the fusion between the two that has given him the authenticity. So what happened on the ship, the sorrow of Nitya's death confirmed to me that the transcendence has taken place

PK : K like Buddha seems to have seen the whole nature of freedom and freed himself of it. Why doesn't this happen to us ?

V : Because for them perhaps the 'personal' suffering caused by the irreversible separation by death had not too much importance. So when the suffering invaded K- he must have shed tears for Nitya. But this transported his consciousness into the fact of vulnerability of human life. Thinking gives continuity to the emotional sting of suffering, but one who has seen the limited utility of thought and does not allow that thought structure to intrude, then the 'sting' of suffering subsides by itself.
K used to say 'Ending the psychological suffering is the essence of religiosity ' So it ended to him ; that one death was representative of millions of deaths happening And that one berayal of those who had given him assurances in the name of the Masters was the betrayal of the whole humanity. He lived the life of the whole humanity perhaps in those three days- and the Buddha perhaps in three hours- and so that suffering ended. We get stuck in our own suffering : it's the personal consequence in our daily life of loneliness. So it seems to me that we don't end suffering because it gives us the sadistic pleasure- to feel it, to talk about it, the self-pity

PK : I have read that during these 15 days he spent travelling to India he suffered, but he learned from this suffering and freed himself. He wrote a letter to a friend saying : ' I have experienced personal sorrow. I'm through with it . I have cheated death.'

V : Yes sir, we do not learn and he was busy learning. For him living was equated with learning.

PK : It was mankind's sorrow, it was not 'his' sorrow.

V : Exactly.

PK : What would you say was 'unique' about Krishnaji- both the man and the teaching ?

V : I don't think I am entitled to talk about the man. But in all the religious teachers, all the spiritual celebrities – none of them were self relant in their enquiry. My quest for truth began when I was five and there is not a single Ashram Vimala has not visited before she was 25 out of the love of enquiry. And none of these teachers were self-reliant - they were tethered to the Vedas, the Upanishads, etc. And here was this person I call a 'phenomenon' because of his non-authoritarian enquiry and totally self-reliant transformation . This was the need of the 'nuclear age'- the synthesis of science and spirituality. A human being who lived with that self-reliance, without any fuss about it, not trying to show it off in any way for more than half a century ! He would rather conceal it .
So K's life cannot be compared with any one of those I've come across in my long questioned In the teaching I find traces of Upanishadic truths in his communications. He had not read them, but it was in his blood.... So, it is incomparable.

PK : Yes he repeatedly told that one has to be a light to oneself...and to such an extent that there is no teacher and no taught ; That is the extent to which he carried Buddha's precept 'Atmadipo Bhava'- Be a Light to oneself' . So you think that the care and nurture that the TS gave to him was a contributory factor, but not a determining factor ?

V : Yes sir, you have said it. It was surely the most valuable contribution because if the world teacher had lived in a small vilage in India as Sri Ramana did, what would the West have done?How would it have bearing on the challenges that the 20-th century world was facing ?

PK : In your view, what has been the impact of Krishnaji on human consciousness ?

V : Krishnamurti, with his own life has paved the way for one global, human religion, one global ethos, one global way of enquiring into truths and living those truths . Because all the 'organised' religions are (eventually?) going to collapse ; they have lost their relevance. If K had not lived and not taught, there would have been a vacuum in the orbit of human consciousness. He has paved the way for the 21-st century

PK : For the serious enquirer ?

V : That's right, such people come for the 'few'- for the salt of the earth.

PK Do you think K was born like an ordinary dman, with an ego and eventually became free or was he, in some sense, born free ? I am asking you this question as he asked himself' Whydid the boy K not get conditioned and trapped (in time?)

V : I am too small a person to answer this question. But I think that one who does not want anything from this world or the other- from humanity or from divinity- does not get conditioned. K must have had his 'ego-structure' -the miscief that the 'ego' plays in ordinary trivialities of daily living, but it was non-operative when it came to the realm of spirituality, the realm of truth . And I have faith in his words when he says : ' The boy never got conditioned'- the wealth, the prestige, the fame- nothing touched him- and yet the tiny little ego of that boy who never had the opportunity to live a normal childhood, to enjoy the various expressions of youth it was there in his life. That's why he remained so human.

PK : How did it happen that Leadbeter and AB pick out K ? His brother was much brighter than him ?

V : As far as my perception goes, there are 5 bodies  within this gross physical body : thos who felt that the boy was unintelligent saw only the outer layers, while Mr Leadbetter must have penetrated beyond them. We must give credit to his (spiritual) perceptions, refined by his occult practices, were sensitised by them and he must have perceived the 'core', the existential essence in that boy.

PK Do you think K succeeded in his mission to set man unconditionally free ?

V : What are 70 years of one person's hard work against thousands of years of human evolution or civilisation ? Neither the success or the failure is perceptible.He has sown the seeds, has ploughed the human psyche on the global level and inserted some truths into the orbit of human consciousness. They are taking time to sprout, to express, to function in the normal society, but it seems to me that they have sunk deep.

PK : Whereas most religious personages collected a group of (remarkable?) people around them who were friends or disciples and collected a community around them, K appears to haved fallen out with most people he was close to. What in your view is the reason for this ?

V : Well, didn't he say that he did not want followers or disciples ? He did not perhaps wish to leave behind him any organisation or a rigid group .That is one aspect. The second may be that temperamentally he was not a person of socialisation. Like a true sannyasi he did not relish much people coming close to him. I might almost call him a loner. So his ways of expressing the truth, which was very sharp, his strategy of throwing people back on themselves and merely compelling them to become self-reliant in their enquiry, positively discouraged their dependence on him. Now, tell me, such a person how can people be around him ?

PK But he also talked about the need for co-operation, that a true co-operation is out of love...
He once remarked that he will never desert anybody but they will all desert him

V : Well, it was his destiny to live in isolation- affluence isolated him,the rôle of world teacher isolated him...The austerity of his truth was frightening ; people went near him, they enjoyed the company, but when it came to his teachings, the razor like sharpness of the truth, the austerity of the non-authoritative approach and unconditional self-relance frightened ( dissuaded?) them. They were attracted towards it intellectually and they were frightened emotionally
My dear friend, I feel human beings are very much afraid of freedom : attracted towards it intellectually, but afraid of it emotionally ; this inner division did not allow them to remain with him, to his side. The moment they understood the (inward) implications of the teaching, the withdraw.

PK : It was said that K as a person was very different from K as a teacher, that he may have been a 'medium' of some sort for another Consciousness to operate. What do you think ?

V : I am inclined to agree that there were 2 streams of consciousness, but they were operating simultaneously. He would 'slide' from one to another so timelessly, so spontaneously and people would remain stuck with one or the other. So, I'm inclined to say that his life continued with these 2 parallel streams. That his consciousness has been used by some 'power' has been said by him in so many ways : I'm a telephone, so take the message, don't worship the telephone .

PK : Some people say that what K is advocating is inherently impossible tro do.

V : No, sir, it's not impossible, and Vimala's llife is a proof for it. But what is 'impossible' is total dedication to living the truth as soon as it has been perceived. Even if it is grasped academically or verbally, if you don't allow any time lag between your understanding and you allow it to live, then I think there is no problem. But the 'time-lag' (delay ) is created by so many factors, and that's why it doesn't happen.

PK : But for the man who is caught up in the 'ego' field there is a vicious circle- the 'ego distorts the perception...

V : The vicious circle might have existed in the pre-K era. In the K-era, the educated, intelligent person has been pointed out to him how the 'ego' has no factual substance. So why is not there the (liberating) energy ? Somehow one feels that it's maybe the 'attachment', maybe the sense of security, maybe the sense of 'individuality' that one gets out of the 'ego' (self-consciousness?) - that doesn't allow it to drop away. Krishnaji used to say : Sir, it is not difficult to perceive the truth, but you do not allow the untruth to drop away' That's the difficulty.

PK : Some people feel that because K had a sexual affair in his youth, there fore he can't be a 'holy' man. What do you think ?

V : What has holiness to do with sex relationship ? Sex itself is a 'divine' energy, but if it's gone through with a feeling of guilt, then it becomes wrong. But we don't know about his life...
(this spiritual) transformation transports you into a Consciousness where the sex-consciousness is absent. The non-duality makes you into a non-sexual person

PK : He says somewhere that Love is both the personal and the impersonal and that it makes no distinction , that it is a state of mind out of which it functions and then everything that is done is part of that love, of that state of mind. Once I've asked him : 'How can you know about sex when you have never experienced it ? And he said : Sir, I get the same joy in holding your hand as you do when you do that'

( To conclude our discussion, ) Would you have to narrate some of your interractios with him, for posterity ?

V : As I've told you, I have been brought in a totally Indian surroundings, so When K asked me
' Come fot lunch tomorrow in Gstaad' I said, No, sir, I don't know any (western) table manners ! So he said : come and do as I do. So I went. He said : I've cooked spinach and curds over spinach.
He made Madam Scaravelli also eat the Indian way !

Another day he tells M-me Scaravelly ' Go and fetch Vimala'. He was sitting under a tree of the chalet and he beckoned me to sit by his side 5 minutes 15 minutes, half an hour- doesn't even look at me. After half an hour he said : ' Wasn't it wonderful ? Now you may leave!'

Once he was in England, he gave me an appointment ar 2:30 pm. I went to Wimbledon. He opens the door wearing an apron 'My God, did I give you an appointment today ?' Yes sir. ' Would you mind having the interview in the kitchen ?' I said ; no, but would you allow to help you in the kitchen ? So whatever conversation we had it went while working. Then at the end he said 'You Indians are notorious for your addiction to tea. Would you like a cup of tea ?' Yes sir. ( he could be mischievous like a boy) So I allowed him to make a cup of tea standing there in the kitchen and there was only a stool on which he was sitting. So I had my cup of tea, 'So long' and I went away.

Once he was a guest of Dr Kharan Singh in Kashmir and there is a palace in Srinagar – he was a guest there. So we went to see him. He was not well. So Dada said, Krishnaji, I was in Srinagar and I thought I could make a courtesy call' K said ; Courtesy call on me ? Sir, I'm not a social animal ! But do please sit down. And said ' I apologise for receiving you in a palace ! ' He had a subtle sense of humour. These occasional meetings with him lasted 10 or 15 minutes and are nothing worth anyone to know, but the human touch was superb !

PK Thank you Vimala for sharing these sacred things with us.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 355 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)