Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Tue, 14 Jul 2015 #31
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 131 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And (such an) educator could also instil in the students' ( beyond the scholastic) acquisition of knowledge this freedom from knowledge (absolutely necessary ?) to understand 'that' which is eternal, which is timeless. Knowledge is of time, and ( a religious mind?) is free from the bondage of time.

Hi John,

"Freedom from the Known" is the most important thing to realise. In the state of insight or awareness, thought "slows" down. There seems to be an inverse relationship: when awareness is present, thought slows and when it is absent, thought reigns. But in that 'in-seeing' state, it is possible to inquire directly,i.e., about fear; psychological fear. And it can be clearly seen that it is caused by this construction of psychological time: a past made up of all memories, a present, and a projected future where anything can 'happen'.(Fear, pleasure and conflict). Also in this state, it can be seen that there is no 'thinker' apart from the thought itself. 'Watching' the thought, transforms it from whatever it was occupied with to a more 'intelligent' mode which wonders, questions, why it is being active at all.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 14 Jul 2015.

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Thu, 16 Jul 2015 #32
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Every year she's asking the same questions! Doesn't she realise that she's knocking at an open door ?

John Raica wrote:
paul daniel wrote:

i have a question to the Origin: are you going to interfere somehow ??

Hello John, somehow it is actually indirectly interfering I sense.....and the right question should have been : "are you going to interfere MORE "

each time we go analytical ,when it is not the right tool to be used in the concerned field, we get a signal that it is wrong........and it contains a repellent feeling in it..

having no clue about that, then after some time, it is reaching a state where the light signal becomes pain..then unbearable pain,whether conscious or more obviously a lot of it is totally embedded within the unconscious zone created by the superficial analyser ..

Still having no clue, this signal is meant to increase by inertia....

It can lead to destruction of one, killing himself as a last resource to run away from pain which is not lived, and global destruction as well due to "me running away" multiplied by X both destructive cases, it is the very same wrongness which is provoking that..

There is no running away happening at all of course, just the will of does not exist.

Well it would have been interesting to know about the question..


Dan ...........

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Thu, 16 Jul 2015 #33
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
To the Buddhist, the image, (suggested by) the word Buddha creates great reverence, great feeling, devotion; he seeks refuge in the image which thought has created. And as the thought is limited, that very 'image' brings about (a subtle inner cleavage?) conflict

while the feeling of reverence to a person, or to a certain long-established tradition divorced from all the external images, symbols and so on, is not (necessarily?) a factor of conditioning the brain. There, sitting in the next chair, was a 'modified' Christian. And when across the table one mentioned 'Christ' one could immediately feel the restrictive, reverential reserve. That word has (culturally) 'conditioned' his brain.

The suffering of mankind is common, is shared by all human beings.

Dan...about conflictual inner conflict...what is conflictual in such situation ?
K says that thought is limited, but why is limitation bringing conflict so fight so pain ?

choice again is at the root of this..

each choice is loaded with a potential absolute happiness to be found in it, the expected result is never there......etc etc

Dan ...........

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Sat, 18 Jul 2015 #34
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 131 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K:' You know, Sir, I'm surrounded here by a lot of people who haven't even the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about'

But maybe for some, the "fog" is lifting...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 18 Jul 2015.

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Wed, 22 Jul 2015 #35
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Q : The whole structure of society is based on this premise : competition, success : that will 'activate' us, otherwise you will 'go under' or go to sleep

Hello John, was away for some days ,

As often I started by the end of this quite interesting talk about the now famous insights..

Well as I see this now, before I had some direct involuntary visions about how the analytical process works , about its program, to be honest apart from some usual blah blah, I would have nothing "real" to say here, competition,success, go under, go to sleep etc etc

From what I have seen, there is no competition as such at all...what there is is division, and this division starts within one's brain, when the analyser/analysed is working fully, and when there is nothing else to it...

The analyser does not simply stand everything so everyone which is not itself ,unless it can use it...because it is only looking at itself, its memory its innate capacities and nothing else..

yet this sentence is not right , as the fact is that the analyser is only able to watch itself , whatever the all itself is...including memories,etc etc

When it is in presence of some other "it-selves" , having no relation apart from profit , it tries to use or suppress, eradicate, eliminate all other selves....

this is what is meant to bring harmony, peace, ,wise persons on earth...good very sad joke !!

this is what we wrongly call competition, there never had been at a deep level any competition between human beings..never!! we just do not relate at all, unless there is a gain in sight,so it is not a relation but a use of someone and this too is just a part of the analytical program, which is needed in order to find a good enough technique, tool, etc in practical fields only, there is no matter of relationship in the analysing program....

So the questioner here talks about himself only, because he is totally caught in what he perceives as a rat race and a vital need to push himself, without knowing that this is just a normal effect of functioning only with the analytical program.....having not a clue about his own functioning as a me...well...

then k for me brings the right question:

K : Of course ! That's all we know. So we are asking is there an energy which is not brought about through friction ? Suppose I say 'Yes' . For you, it may be just a theory. But if you are interested, if you say ; By Jove, I will give (dedicate?) my life to find that out' You will have it there (laughs)

So on the way or we have a normal life from birth to death...or we have met sorrow, pain, we lived all that, then what happens is the revealing of the roots of some of then ,so the relief and so on, then bit by bit as it wishes there is this analytical process which is revealing itself.......etc etc


Dan ...........

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Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #36
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K : There's (an inner) discipline which is order.Look : my urge is to tell you something ; He( K) does it every other day, he feels intensely ; but will you listen ? That's all he says : For God's sake, please listen ! And you say : sorry, I have got my wife, my job, my family. I listen because it sounds very nice theoretically...

Q : Yes, but is he intrinsically capable of listening in the state in which he presently is ?

K : Of course, sir, when you are in a crisis, you listen. When someone near to you dies , you listen damn well ; you are shocked by it. You are in a state of concentrated energy.

Q : Yes, because that suffering is affecting me within the field.

K : No ! It is challenging you to question the field ! It is challenging you to say
For God's sake, what is this ? Why am I going through this ? Why is everybody going through this ? But you (usually) say : I need comfort, it must be somewhere- and you're off !
We've got plenty of (such ) challenges, all the time. I am challenging you right now, but you wouldn't even listen...

Q : If it was voluntary, I would listen !

K : Then, don't listen ! Carry on, knowing that you are living in a field where nothing good is going to flower !

Q : When you see that, I think the 'carrying on' will become even more difficult....

K That's all ; But he won't listen to that, he is already arguing that there is something good in the field : Gandhi has done some good, and Mrs Gandhi has done some good and Hitler has not done good...He didn't listen to what is being said.

Well that is what I would call a serious not it ?

and he is talking to some fine scientist....for me it is OK as I never had any admiration for anyone so it is fine..but to them such talk must have been a shock afterwards back to usual life...where they are perceived by themselves and others as a part of some sort of elite of this planet....

Dan ...........

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Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #37
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 131 posts in this forum Offline

Yes...'colossal laziness' and 'need for comfort' and 'reward and punishment' has been ringing in my head!

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Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #38
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes...'colossal laziness' and 'need for comfort' and 'reward and punishment' has been ringing in my head!

Hello the other Dan...

well yes it does, but is it so simple ? I don't think so....

I think that one main factor is quasi ignorance of what oneself is, of what sorrow is, of what is going on, on what desire are etc etc etc so basically what is life all about? and of what am I suppose to do or not to do with all it is written nowhere...

if what we have done with life generally speaking ,I mean what mankind has made of it, for me a disaster at all levels..apart from machines but really and so what ?? if I find this totally appalling , insane, demented,cruel etc etc then maybe will I find with much luck something else than this nonsense...

laziness ,comfort , etc comes after when I am totally stuck in such no life so in pain , in sorrow etc etc trying to make something at least comfortable out of it..


PS: in my worse ever time at least I was considering life as holidays...constructive holidays with nature...walking, meeting people,sharing,voluntary cooperation so of sharing of course as they go together.. etc etc ..and certainly not competition which means elimination ,achieving, reaching , eliminating others so war..all this is WAR...that is utterly insane..the entire occidental world is drowning into that ,what a mess !!(started some 2500 years ago at least for me) for the rest possible they do go that way..yet..something seems to happen..

And I do not give any right to anyone to touch this....somehow it has worked quite well but must add that I am very stubborn when it comes to that, I would stand for that minimum in my life, ready to face consequences for such conduct,which i did..and for the deeper moments, well this is something else , so another story...much told by k and possibly others too..


Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 23 Jul 2015.

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Thu, 23 Jul 2015 #39
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

All what we talk about here, under the guide line made by k ,has a direct incidence too on the outer, of course it has, ....when such a journey within has started, one of the first thing to be insightfully perceived is that there is no competition at all but an insane process of elimination directed by the ones willing to eliminate in order to win, all this having deep roots in the thought process functioning, so program itself!! from the whole Universe down to one me, this is just a slow suicide, something which had been said by k too somewhere....the deep nature of what we are is clearly not the one of our so called ancestors, this is something that k did not see, as he goes along with the darwinian bullshit....

if our past was totally clean in peace and bliss we would surely be in the very same mess, as what matters is what is missing in full power to a blind to the global tool that thought is..

what i have seen for me is that it is the absence of some capacities which are there but turned off which is creating our insane conduct and life , it has strictly nothing to see with the past whatever this past is..

of this I am not sorry to sat that it is in the obvious ....

I still do not see any other way than to go through sorrow without any expectation when it is there..because sorrow has the capacity as a catalyst to reveal the unconscious when it is lived , it is part of its job to help here, a capacity which the full and total bliss when totally connected does not reveal....

so there seem to be at least two major steps,one is the proper dealing with what is wrong in the analytical life so in thought in sorrow....and the second is what is happening when thought somehow is not in the way....but here it is already fee of sorrow,fear and all of it...

when I rethink about this, which is something I lived ,it is not guessing or intellectual I say for god sake what a mess have we created,!!!worse is impossible ...

If so, we are touching the bottom of it....mentally we clearly are...

I am 60, since 10 years old ish, this is my feeling...then I felt that some of today’s quote would fit in here

the building is crumbling, the walls are giving way, there is a fire destroying it. You must leave the building and start anew in a different place, with different values, with different foundations. But those who are making a profit out of education, whether the State or the individual, will go on, because they do not see the destruction, the deterioration, the degradation. But those who really see the whole catastrophe, not just in a few spots, but the world over, have to strip themselves of everything and start anew. I don't mean stripping off the outward knowledge, the technical knowledge. I know it can never be stripped off; but you can strip yourselves inwardly, see yourselves as you are, your ugliness, your brutality, your ruthlessness, your deceptions, your dishonesty, your utter lack of love. Seeing all that, you can start anew, and become honest, clear, simple, direct. Surely, only then is there a possibility of a new world and a new order. Peace does not come through patch-work reform. Peace does not come through mere adjustment of things as they are. Peace comes only when we understand what is, beyond the superficial. Peace can come into being only when the wave of destruction, which is the wave of our own action, is stopped. Sirs, how can we have love? Not through the pursuit of the ideal of love, but only when there is no hatred, when there is no greed, when there is consideration, when there is generosity; but a man who is occupied with exploitation, with greed, with envy, can never know love. When there is love, systems become of very little importance. When there is love, there is care, there is consideration, not only for the children, but for every human being

it is so simple.......

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 23 Jul 2015.

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Fri, 24 Jul 2015 #40
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
I spent 4 days at typing it, but it was a totally worthwhile endeavour. I'll keep posting other excerpts but this was definitely the essence of it

Yes please go on John and thanks of course..

This morning I was wondering what life would be if only the analyser was not dictating everything...would we still have complex machines, planes, nano technology , factories, selling stuff to make people sick and same company selling possible cure , pollution by chemicals,radioactivity, noise, etc etc

not sure we would have that,when it appears now impossible to have life without all that technique...especially for those living in town and doing no work related by this "togetherness" used too in fields for production of vital needs... so practically 90% of the planet..

as when the analyser does not lead all those may or may not exist to the extend we know it, or to the totalitarianism we know this is not the point, the point being the frame of the brain mind..the state of mind so..then anything else finds its right place......

and for sure when the analyser is not dictating there is no competition hiding in fact the analytical eliminating process basic program(choice) for concepts so not to be used on people and in mental fields of course, no division with oneself so with the entire universe, no business, no war, no poverty nor wealth , no hierarchy, no comparison, no value given, and a relative security brought by the togetherness...and a sort of global sense of art, art for me being a relative notion ONLY of "nicely done", "beauty", a sort of natural global "good job" at all levels....but not any more a quest for an impossible absolute as it is now for the poor analyser,still seeking for an impossible way out of its misery ,an impossible task as it never will get that it is the core problem with the absence of some other capacities by we do try to only reject sorrow like we reject anything else blindly and automatically, an awakening seems to me not possible in those conditions..

tu sum this up: I feel awful ?? great!!! that is THE good start,something is at work to push me/anyone on the right track..will I listen ??

of course not is what usually happen...

the difficult part of that seems to be that I am going to be entirely lost for a while and around that there is a lot of unknown,an unknown that again the analyser is not able to deal with as it analyses only the recorded psychological landmarks or so few are sometimes left, death is a constant probability as soon as there is planning and continuity involved , i see all about the rat race, i get all what is happening on the planet, all the crimes due to my own conduct too etc etc .

One word on what is recorded, it is only a tiny superficial fraction of "what is" which is recorded, the superficial part of it, plus what is rejected, so that at the end of the day it is so logical to become specialised in one single part of this immensity of possible subjects...
this is why limitation is a problem....I guess that there is no life as one only , as acting as we were not totally interdependent is THE mistake of course....we are told that so we believe it blindly by not even properly using the analytical program which is not that bad when used to its limits by just properly using this yes/no and I do not know..conclusions...

so much for the self glory of "me" ....

the turning on of our other capacities seems the far what I get is that "I" necessarily have the last word in its field to agree for some X reasons to let its dictatorship so arrogance wither away in one go....


blah blah is easy ,then what?

Well what can be radically changed right now is clearly the relation I am having with others..if this is radically changed then bit by bit all materialistic aspects will find their right place of course....

Of course there is the temptation to add here: so must radically be changed this sort of bizarre relation I pretend to have with whatever is myself which i see as a global running away combined with some reaching...of which I have no clue about.

So me X by 7 billion is by all means using others to do so....

me is just a the new god of some too, they don't have any answers for our mental problems

k: Most of us do not want to be intensely aware, it is too disturbing

Questioner: How is it possible to be intensely aware while one is occupied with a particular job?

Krishnamurti: I do not see the difficulty. Why can't one be intensely aware while doing the job? Whether the job is mechanical, scientific, or bureaucratic, in being intensely aware while you are doing that job, you will not only do it more efficiently but you will also begin to be aware of why you are doing it, what are the motives behind your work. You will find out if you are afraid of your boss; you will observe how you talk to your underlings and to those above you. Being intensely aware in your relationship with others, you will know whether you are creating enmity, jealousy, hatred; you will see all your own responses in relationship, whether you are here, in a bus, in your office, or in the factory. All this is implied in intense awareness.
Also, if you are intensely aware, you might give up your job. Therefore, most of us don't want to be intensely aware;it is too disturbing; we would rather continue with what we are doing, even if it is very boring. At best, we break away from that which bores us and find a job which is less boring, but this too soon becomes routine.

So, we are caught in habit: the habit of going to the office every morning, the habit of smoking, the sexual habit, the habit of ideas, concepts, the habit of being an Englishman, and so on. We function in habit. To be intensely aware of habit has its own danger, and we are afraid of danger. We are afraid of not knowing, of not being certain There is great beauty, there is great vitality, in not being certain. It is not insanity to be completely insecure; it doesn't mean that one becomes psychotic. But none of us want that. We would rather break one habit and create a more pleasant habit.

Collected Works, Vol. XIII,212,Choiceless Awareness

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 24 Jul 2015.

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Sat, 25 Jul 2015 #41
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The understanding of the nature of what you are, without any reactions to what you discover you are, is the beginning of austerity. The awareness, of every thought, every feeling, like watching a bird in flight - that watching brings about an extraordinary sense of austerity that goes beyond all the fooling around with this ideas of self- improvement and self-fulfilment. In this watching there is great freedom and in that freedom there dignity of austerity. But ( unfortunately?) if you said all this to a 'modern' group of students or children, they would probably look out of the window in boredom because the world is bent on its own pursuit of pleasure.

Hello John, i was back to this....

Talking for myself, this "watching", that k is talking about is not the one I-we usually know in normal life, the one lead by all of us, he is talking about something very different....of a part of the missing process, at least this is my view on that.

I see my own students at home caught in such process of entertainment,which is totally unavoidable yet I am banning since 15 years TV,radio false main news and so on for myself so for them, so no advertising at all and an intense and concerned presence in times of trouble, as this is where "something" deeply different and interesting may happen; pursuit of pleasure yes like the old man in fact, but was it so different some 2500 years ago deeply at the level of the bottom brain mind? I don't think so, what we live today is only the continuity of the same day again and again..with superficial variations ..not long ago I catch a text by Socrates talking about the children of his time, it could have been written yesterday..

what we live are just the convolutions of the analytical mind since ages, caught in its own making, its own trap, lost , in suffering, pretending that all is fine because it even fears to acknowledge that its life is a perfect nonsense so is terrified to admit that, as it sees that if it does such thing, it is going to be destroyed...which is what must be done, but does not want to do!! but for me all human have not been like that since our beginning..many civilisations show that man had been totally different mentally, like what is left of the native Indian for example but not only of course and far from it..

You know to be a leader you need to want it, who is willing to do that and on what bases? From ages only the thieves and violent people mainly to gain on the collective work would go for it, today some call them pervert narcissistic or just psychopath ,and we keep stubbornly working for such people but why ? we are not so different, this is why !!! so they lead us, and we do not act against as we have nothing really different to say..after all don't we all, apart from exceptions ,want the same as they do...?? that is a terrible it brings leaders and followers as being deeply and basically the same type of person, all fighting which necessarily bring the worse in charge and not the good man of course...the children of the divisive analytical mind.....our failure and disaster.

Here incidentally I am so questioning authority,all authority,any aspect of it, apart the firm but gentle and caring one needed when it comes to I see it, we are not adults mentally in we see in ourselves what result gives a perverted child mind..

and so on, all this have roots in one single brain mind which has lost possible 80% of its capacities...X by 7 billion,less one or two every 2500 !!

--Back to the future is now and changing yourself changing the world...all is definitively linked...the democratic coalition for peace and freedom bombs will again kill today somewhere there is something to be stolen, now using false "east-slamic" mercenaries to hide itself of course, because itself it is more ashamed of its insane conduct and do not want the flock (us)to realise how mad they are!!!, for my comfort today, those bombing are "me" too....and I know it deeply, this is why I am terribly concerned too..for others, for those dying because of me today, whether in bombing, by organised starvation, out of hopelessness, tortures,.........I am the killer too....:-(

sounds as if it was lost is not it ???

Well , that is" what is" , this hopeless situation is the present what is...what is factual with "what is" when you have learnt to live it with no expectation of any kind ,this is learnt when dealing properly with sorrow, is that the problems are going to be solved....if they are lived....that is a great catch 22 again because to be able to live "what is" instead of out usual running away, for myself I have learnt that I must not intend to solve anything as a divided analytical "I" soon as I have such intention, it is again the divisive analyser which is at work and again will mess it up all as usual..that is the trick , I must not try to solve anything...but learn to live the situation only...this is where for me is the vital trick..from which all will follow then as it wishes...

it seems to me that "me" needs" to be totally stuck...if so we are reaching a vital moment....

will we live it, or escape from it ??

As a "we" being global I have no clue, as a personal "I" well it is entirely up to me....

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 25 Jul 2015.

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Mon, 27 Jul 2015 #42
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
But K was uncompromising that no other person can heal your mind- you must heal it yourself. But where it was a case of possession , some evil spirit dominating some person, he was able to rid him of that. He could just get the spirit out and say : Get out and don't touch this person again. I have never seen him so sad as when he said to me ' Look, this chap is ill and I've healed him. He was living stupidly and I gave him a chance , but will he take the chance or he will go back and live as stupidly as before ? To him the pity of it was heartbreaking.

Dan: amazingly by reading that, somehow it seems to me that the analyser, thought, the thinking process,"me" etc etc is no more at all even working properly in its field of competencies...because he drop the basic yes I know as an experimented fact, no I don't now as an experimented fact, and the last one which is I don't now anything about this or that..then it has brought at the same level facts, lies, hopes and desires, as well as illusions and so on, then it has abandoned facts to conceptually live in lies, hopes, illusions and desires, facts seem to have disappear...( grosso modo bien sur) it is more complex but for now this is enough to see

John Raica wrote:
I think K was a man who wanted nothing from anybody. He did not want anyone to form a 'sangha' (community?)( ensemble des pratiquants du bouddhisme) and to further the teachings. He said : don't do anything for another unless it is an authentic expression of your own uniqueness.

Dan: this gives me the feeling of walking alone , so being egotistic, which never meant to me using others ,to steal, to work for me only without caring for others etc etc I think that we are not at all egotistic but just conceptually running away from what the censor have chosen to reject and think we are reaching what the censor have chosen to reach,which is something which is in psychological fields absolutely non existent in fact..It seems that we may be living such illusion we take for real, but that there is nothing in it, it is is empty whatever clever name is given to this other words from other times: the sacred link had been broken,....we are empty shells..and since a while nuts shells as in nut bar.

then living psychologically alone, there is no master and no slave accepted, then I meet others at this peace with me so with them.

John Raica wrote:
Q : Why is it that no-one has been able to make this 'radical) transformation in consciousness he was talking about ?

AP : Annie Besant said that this (transformational) process should not be understood in the framework of one life's span. This is an ongoing destiny of many which is unravelling itself and you have a rôle to play. I think K has indicated : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation, but at every moment unbeknown to you if you can rise to the full stature of your manhood and negate the factor of the 'self' then in the total communion with 'what is' there is a release . But don't try to hold it for that is out of time.

Dan: Again we have here the idea of time as in evolution, learning etc etc...just as religious as any other usual view from AB..things is the all society is so perverted and so insane at all levels, yet "we" find that normal because we are told so blindly believe, if this was so a fact, then for me it is clear that the Origin itself whatever it is is insane too...this was and is a deep seeing I have, so is not thinking.
K did indicated what AP mentions about : don't wait for the ultimate liberation or mutation....effectively I have lived this episode to try even for less than a split second to hold it, or rather precisely to wish that it goes on so to try to give it continuity !! now the present fact is that "it" never came back to the immense extend it was reason to cry, but the necessity to get the point that there is work to do with life is a piece of a disaster...what is wrong ,what is that? going into that somehow must be done...the walk is not easy because not only will I meet my own psychological illusions which I call life which is possible indeed, but I become at the same time too ,terribly aware of the outer as it is, more and more of it up to the point to get it practically entirely as it exactly is so I see all the interaction of it, like how school get one ready for war etc etc etc and this is the most destroying factor known in my own life, as I really can deal with the most profound psychological pain of mind, but when is seen the global picture of the insane disaster of man, wow...when you understand deeply it in your guts...and here there is no more matter of included/excluded has now this sounds utterly meaningless regardless to the crimes of man, this is hard to live it can use all your energy left to just live it and cry out all your tears for a lifetime in one splits second..this is why I absolutely do not care at all about so called science,machines and all of that, because this is totally beside the vital point and would be a bit like bowing before any machine as being the only "meaning" of the entire unknown to us, universe..there is not an once of sanity in this...and some are proud of that..not knowing why they are proud of course, as such person has no clue about the functioning of the analytical program..

this brings us straight back to k : Self- knowledge...( Dan: insightfully revealed fact about the functioning of the analytical program..) does not demand accumulated knowledge. Accumulated knowledge becomes a burden to self- knowledge. Self- knowledge, the understanding of the total process of oneself, does not demand any previous knowledge. Previous knowledge about oneself brings misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Self- knowledge is constant movement without accumulation. This knowledge is from moment to moment, for self knowledge is a process of discovery of the activities of the self. Only when there is the process of accumulating knowledge, then it is in opposition to creative being........ Without self- knowledge, the god that you seek is the god of illusion; and illusion inevitably brings conflict and sorrow. Without self- knowledge, there can be no right thinking; and then all knowledge is ignorance which can only lead to confusion and destruction. Self- knowledge is not an ultimate end; it is the only opening wedge to the inexhaustible. ``Is not self- knowledge extremely difficult to acquire, and will it not take a very long time?''

John Raica wrote:
Now K says that this faculty of attention is not of the brain. Though it operates through the brain it is not of the brain. And this 'faculty' can see the biological reflexes , it can see what comes through the brain. So this 'attention' is really a flash of the Cosmic energy, like a high voltage (frequency?) is tied. We cannot (usually) touch this 'high voltage' (frequency?) because we are on this 'low voltage' (mode)..

Dan: quite clear in itself yes.

John Raica wrote:
AP : First you must see this whole phenomenon in its totality and 'do nothing' about it.. Now, with this (non-moving mind?) you turn away from all this without any 'achievement' orientation. You are observing the sky, the see without wanting anything, and sometimes in this communion with nature this whole process stops. But before it stops you have to come to the perception of a 'camera lens' which is an absolutely accurate recording without the desire to change 'what is' . The brain is only (passively) recording. In this state of only recording there is a miracle- the miracle of attention It is this 'attention' which- if you are able to put a foot on to it is already free.

Dan: yes no achievement or even orientation...I know it factually..something else that is not "me", "you" is clearly there , leading the "game" of described here, so attention has definitively, in what "I for once not leading" factually lived, attention so has nothing at all in common with thinking so with analysing...NOTHING..something else is at work....

John Raica wrote:
AP I feel that you must observe without prejudice how a prejudice and a word born out of it can put a distance between people .One must see that this walk between you and me are created by my words. And I think this wall can be washed only by the tears of the heart. Unless you are washed in the tears of your heart- which brings you close to a sense of affection with those you are intimately working with , I don't think you can get anywhere.

again this "must observe without prejudices" seems to bring us right back to analysing only, so right to the creator of problems again in charge...must or must not are only analytical choices based on analytical unknown desires/fear...but is it a matter to get anywhere ? or is it a matter for the illusion of an analytical conceptual life, the concept does not know that it is a concept, ,a matter so for the illusion to be perceived out of the blue without searching for, so lived insightfully by "chance", incidentally as a side effect of something? if so what is that "something else" ???

Of course for me it is obvious that what we call pain, suffering,discontentment,boredom,fear,anxiety, and anything felt as bad for me is the only starting point,yet what am I supposed to do with that ??

then with a bit of "chance" again, even the things felt as "good for me" start to be questioned by themselves because it is seen that those too are roots for pain and more...some discovery process now seems to work by itself as it it possible to help ? some say yes..

I am not there yet for myself, so I can't say anything here..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 #43
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
PK : Another mysterious happening is the 'process' which he went through at various periods of his life. Do you think this is the same (phenomenon) as the awakening of kundalini ?

V : No, the awakening of kundalini does activate unconditioned (psychic?) energies in the body but not for a prolonged duration. It must have happened to him for 6 months of his early life in Ojai when they spread mattresses in the room- he would roll when not able to bear the intensity or the agony caused by the pain. Now for K as a person it seems to me that he was 'manipulated' by the Supreme Intelligence with the help of invisible powers or energies left into orbit of the Earth by exceptional human beings of spiritual attainments....

About kundalini, it seems not as uncommon as it seems as myself not included I have met 3 other person directly who have lived such moment...I guess that many just do not mention in places where it can be seen by a majority like on the I myself did not for 35 years, apart from exceptions, no one in my close family or even close friends knew about that...

but here it is about k and my view is that k could (should) have told more as a describing of all those moments but his choice was not that one..I am not sure that it was "right", after all when such moment is a fact, and you say it, that is fine...then how people will perceive and create another sort of religious worshipping or whatever else is really secondary.....and 100% their own responsibility..

As to the invisible power or energy, what I and some I know lived says that it is one clear possibility,such possibility brings into the light that we would even be more remote than we possibly can imagine from what life was meant to I often say here, k was not exceptional, but we are exceptionally dumb at all levels apart when it comes to machines....but here too we create nothing it all is already there, which is logical with an Origin beyond we are not evolving at all ,we are just an expression, one out of the infinite of what is ,expression of the Origin...who decided to play personal only , so the disaster..there is no room for that in the whole of what is ,is what I think..

in that sense again k has the right words: you are the world..which is far more than a stupid romantic analytical statement

John Raica wrote:
PK : In your view, what has been the impact of Krishnaji on human consciousness ?

V : Krishnamurti, with his own life has paved the way for one global, human religion, one global ethos, one global way of enquiring into truths and living those truths . Because all the 'organised' religions are (eventually?) going to collapse ; they have lost their relevance. If K had not lived and not taught, there would have been a vacuum in the orbit of human consciousness. He has paved the way for the 21-st century

PK : For the serious enquirer ?

V : That's right, such people come for the 'few'- for the salt of the earth.

Dan: have the so called religion even ever had relevance at all ?? As an hypnotic and mesmerising agent for domination and refuge for lost in fear of life minds , yes no doubt..but more ????

I personally have a problem with "such people come for the few "...
This can be entirely right, if so again we find here a hierarchy so such statement is a justification of our own they are so of war, of poverty and wealth..if so it is even worse that what I is not that I absolutely want things to be that way where there would be no hierarchy to please my own image of what I'd like things to be, .....

this can be wrong too, if so k was what he was,end of the story..

I have the impression to assist to the birth of a new religion like all others..someone says what he sees out of the ordinary and really far from ordinary fighting life...trying to communicate what happens for him as it all seems or is of the most profound interest for all..not to forget that somewhere he said that he did not know how the big thing did happen to him, we read that here, John, some month ago in the other thread....

In his public life as reported in most books he met many doctors,professors,wealthy people ,well known people etc calling them by their title and not their again we can see the acceptance of some sort of human hierarchy is not it ??

for me , i don't know why but it seems obvious that there is no hierarchy at all for all things to simply be, there is a collectivity of elements and we are one of them amongst billion of billion,yet it pleases some to believe that all exist for us to exist..this is there for me since very young,of course one can be good at this or at that, yes and so what ?? Does it have to be used for power ? which is what happens....I say no, "this is wrong"...and not "I think that this is wrong"..why? because behind all this, what i see clearly now is that the divisive analyser again hiding itself as usual not having a clue that it is what it is doing.....and the analyser is basically in his heavier expressions war,destruction, stealing and killing....

this analyser likes to invade fields of so called spirituality too, where it can gain some sort of achievement as the achievement to be the one who knows..... I have play that game, this is why i mention, it was my biggest disaster in life as it was entirely happening in the unconscious, until it was solved by living the pain of it with no expectation..

So does it all come down to such simple thing like am I expecting? or am I not ?

John Raica wrote:
PK : K like Buddha seems to have seen the whole nature of freedom and freed himself of it. Why doesn't this happen to us ?

V : Because for them perhaps the 'personal' suffering caused by the irreversible separation by death had not too much importance. So when the suffering invaded K- he must have shed tears for Nitya. But this transported his consciousness into the fact of vulnerability of human life. Thinking gives continuity to the emotional sting of suffering, but one who has seen the limited utility of thought and does not allow that thought structure to intrude, then the 'sting' of suffering subsides by itself.
K used to say 'Ending the psychological suffering is the essence of religiosity ' So it ended to him ; that one death was representative of millions of deaths happening And that one betrayal of those who had given him assurances in the name of the Masters was the betrayal of the whole humanity. He lived the life of the whole humanity perhaps in those three days- and the Buddha perhaps in three hours- and so that suffering ended. We get stuck in our own suffering : it's the personal consequence in our daily life of loneliness. So it seems to me that we don't end suffering because it gives us the sadistic pleasure- to feel it, to talk about it, the self-pity

PK : I have read that during these 15 days he spent travelling to India he suffered, but he learned from this suffering and freed himself. He wrote a letter to a friend saying : ' I have experienced personal sorrow. I'm through with it . I have cheated death.'

Dan: now John we are back to what you call the pet subject of mine..

and well , what to add to this ? You know to me this subject if lived and not escaped seems THE key where a different , let's say movement, starts in one's life without searching for it....when the world offers destruction or entertainment ,depending on where living....the world of entertainment destroying the world steal, and to dominate....the same battle is going on within each one brain....

the pain is not deep enough yet, or it is but unfortunately "we" became" resilient to that at least for 2 or 3 millennia or more ,depending on how deeply false the official history is ...just another big mistake...

the " i have experienced personal sorrow....."

is interesting indeed....

John Raica wrote:
PK But he also talked about the need for co-operation, that a true co-operation is out of love...
He once remarked that he will never desert anybody but they will all desert him

Dan:Yes, this is one basics of life as it is that we are missing...of course we are tools only and a tool has no competence in such field....a tool just have a program which makes it do things according to its .....program!!!

....what is alive is more complex, subtle and so unknown...most people like 95% of human still blindly believe in myths like the myth of competition so of the best..which if true made the 80 millions killed in two world wars, the best option of the time as ell as all others murdered before and since..that is utterly moronic and in fact so beyond words..

John Raica wrote:
PK : It was said that K as a person was very different from K as a teacher, that he may have been a 'medium' of some sort for another Consciousness to operate. What do you think ?

V : I am inclined to agree that there were 2 streams of consciousness, but they were operating simultaneously. He would 'slide' from one to another so timelessly, so spontaneously and people would remain stuck with one or the other. So, I'm inclined to say that his life continued with these 2 parallel streams. That his consciousness has been used by some 'power' has been said by him in so many ways : I'm a telephone, so take the message, don't worship the telephone .

Dan: well this is not surprising, what we call ego or whatever,is always there whether dominant whether tamed....its part is vital for survival, including the immediate of course...when the analyser is gone, life as a human is gone too....this is what stuck me when my father got a brain stroke and when some of his memories and capacities were gone, he was no able to survive without others doing all what he usually was meant to routinely do every day himself..

what I find myself is that the influence of the other process on the ego or whatever name is effective, but will not radically change it, it is set up for good it will make the ego work as it should ,which for me is no more even the case, the ego has gone totally cuckoo even in its own fields...for me it never was meant to work on its own...of course you can count here and there things which are functioning yes indeed....but this is of no value the real value is to have the big pictures not one or two details only ..

bottom line there is the world of the analyser we all know and are exclusively caught in it,without really knowing about what is deeply going on, just surviving at a very superficial level where sorrow is to be found and the world of what is not of that....

for me sorrow is THE link between both...and is just an indicator and a helper...that we never use as it has to be used...its main property is to freeze the "me" dictatorship such it is just a function....if i see all that rightly, it is there by "Origin's will out of mysterious necessity" ...

thanks for the work John this is really interesting to read all that.

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 28 Jul 2015.

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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 #44
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

.as I often say here, k was not exceptional, but we are exceptionally dumb at all levels apart when it comes to machines.

Hi, Dan, glad that someone is reading this stuff. I guess that this interview with Vimala Thakar puts a lot of things about K and ourselves in the right place: for me personally it was the 'phenomenal' aspect of K intermingled with his often boyish and spontaneous attitudes, etc.

Well John, I am not pushing myself at all, again thanks to you.. yes the phenomenal aspects of k are so interesting; well I remember long ago reading about very old Celtic non written sort of oral tradition, most of it being quite unknown and of course not a subject at school!! for them natural phenomenon , like k sort of things etc of course included what is not predictable was part of life, sort of : "know that what is unexpected may happen".... generally it was expressed to come from Nature in a sort of very wide sense...that would link them to very old cultures like native Indian, aborigines,real shamanism and some others, many probably unknown to us today..from this past of man which "THEY" try to hide, as now it seems obvious that official history is to cheated to be trusted, even the official history of today is false...

To have chosen somehow the path where there is 1+1=2 up to Hiroshima, Fukushima and genetic, nano tech etc etc so cars ,machines and computers have made us cars, machines and computers like....such "no life" having this constant frustration is simply driving us cuckoo..for me maths and technique pose exactly the same problem as what we call ego does, it is one fragment of a whole "body" taking over full control, so partially.

in clear it has no clue of what damage it is doing to the whole body or even if it is wise and intelligent to use it , a whole body which is now fragmented..even if maths are a fact to some or maybe down to the root nature of things, which I do not know , I am not sure that it is at all wise to use it now everywhere and all the it is shrinking us to have a life of a formula,and a formula again does not have any contact or concern with anything but itself..if it even has any contact at all even with itself...without the whole with us, in us..we are not only wasting our time as a non living creature but this no life is spend in sorrow and frustration

and here i quote today's one which fit here:

"to bring about a state of constant experiencing, which is really extraordinarily revolutionary, we must be aware of this process of action which is always seeking an end, a result, and therefore giving birth to the actor. We must be fully aware of that process; and when we are aware of that and see the truth, the significance, the pain of it, then in that passive awareness we will know the state of experiencing in which there is neither the experiencer nor the experience."

John Raica wrote:
Another precious insight was his saying that 'It is not difficult to see the truth ( about a lot of stuff in our everyday life) but it is difficult to let go the 'untruth' part. It also confirmed my intuition that there are several possible readings of K's Teachings- but only one is the 'true' one. Anyway many thanks to Professor Krishna for his remarkable book he offered to us all 'A Jewel on a Silver platter' . Whether he- or us- took the 'jewel' is a totally different story. I'm posting excerpts from his interview with Radha Burnier, who was the TS president towards the end of K's life

John, do you mean " the true one reading of k" as what it was precisely meant by k ?

About the TS in the other last quote, I was reading a bit of the TS story yesterday and remembered I was reading some of it long ago ,especially about madame Blavatsky ..founded in the us ,where else ?? But it left me nothing after such reading.

Hermetic Qabalah (from the Hebrew ???????? "reception" or "accounting") is a Western esoteric, occult and mystical tradition. It is the underlying philosophy and framework for magical societies such as the Golden Dawn, Thelemic orders, mystical-religious societies such as the Builders of the Adytum and the Fellowship of the Rosy Cross, and is a precursor to the Neopagan, Wiccan and New Age movements.[1] The Hermetic Qabalah is the basis for Qliphothic Qabala as studied by left hand path orders, such as the Typhonian Order.

It is amazing to see all that having an apparent link with k through the TS and Leadbeater the TS was sort of part of this Cabala, more devoted to the "devil" as opposite to so called religion and "evil" things than anything else,full of mysteries of course never revealed as probably they never existed at all but were just fantasy .. so they say with the same "vein", this leads us straight to the neocons and illuminati "moto" : order ab chao....not to forget that illuminati has two meaning ,at least in French , one is demented..

If JC story is even partially right, then "some" have missed a "messiah" for a second time :-)).....but k was "the reluctant messiah"...not to forget that messiah means messenger and nothing more but has become the myth of our saviour that sense k is a the accepted sense,there is no such messiah at all....

it is interesting to know that historically many Bolshevik,communist,Maoism and Trotskyste have officially become neocons....and today in Europe still are cohabiting well with the main power like the last no elected president of the European commission leading 800 million people Jose Manuel Barroso started his young career as one of those so called extreme left as a Trotskyste .....pretending to be in opposition with them when they are just the same group....history when not false is really interesting and illuminates the darkness of our modern times, superficially explaining all the horror and "evil" links of the past 120 years...and more......

Modern time is really a funny ha ha expression as anyone who lived on earth ,always was living in modern time, 100 000 years ago and more included of course

our history is just the one of the thieves leading the all means.

All this based on pure wind,as so far the so called west seem to have had no special mind like eastern have had since long ago...

Leadbeater "discovery" of k remaining a really "weird" phenomenon ....well my ex wife would see the aura naturally so would have this natural talent,but she was not able to "interpret" the colours she would see ( the dominant colour she would noticed was a sort of "grey" ish) ..again here and there there are elements of a huge puzzle , if it is known as a puzzle , it is fine,as the element knowing it would not go insane, but each piece that each human is, sees itself for the global puzzle...then insanity is our best friend...

so now let us go for the next excerpt...

At this stage I am now really eager to discover it........

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 29 Jul 2015.

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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 #45
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
RB : Both. There was a conversation in 1976 when K wanted the trustees to meet in Ojai an,d we were invited to dinner in Mary Z's house in Malibu. At the dinner table K himself asked ' What is a Master ?' I said ; from the theosophical point of view a Master is someone who have come to a state of inner freedom, but out of compassion remains in contact with ignorant humanity- to help and to teach them, like Bodhisattva And I added, Sir, I believe you are a Master. That put an end to our conversation. There was a period of silence and then he turned to something else ; But I think he was in contact wit other (invisible?) people, perhaps they were his teachers, perhaps there is a veil after veil that lifts. So it is possible that K himself had been guided by certain 'people', because if you read Pupulji's description of the 'process' she noted down that he spoke about 'they' ; Who are 'they' ?

PK : Yes, that is a mystery.

RB : Mark Lee said that just before K died , when he met him, K said' I'm ready to go. They are waiting for me, but the body has its own programme. So, who were the 'they' who were waiting for him ? I think he was in contact with 'people' (spiritual entities?) who were at that level of consciousness. Apart to what he said to Mahesji, on one occasion he said to me that the mistake the Theosophists did was to make the Masters' into something personal and concrete.They are not that.

Well....talking about someone close to my actual friend , I hate the word wife, if myself I was contacted by "another brain" by telepathic means in an unknown language I would understand so I could use it the exact same type of experience he was contacted and at some stage was listening to some music( he said that he never heard before and after such profound and beyond words sound in his entire life) in a telepathic manner too..apart from me talking and him listening to music ,all was identical, so here we have a process ??? ..honestly I am really stuck by his experience with music like k's ones really intrigue me in the same manner, he was in touch or in contact with....????....where, how , who etc..apparently this could have been coming from anywhere, as least it is not an earthly known this gives much credit to this apparent lunacy for some....

A whole "world" seems to escape our lives....but it is life ? honestly I don't think so...

So k was much more mysteriously "touched" than what is usually known...I have no doubt about it for me, because I can compare to what I and some I know lived as a free small sample ,and here and there there are a few description which cannot have been said, unless he himself lived them....of course a good psycho blah blah would have him put into a psychiatric asylum nowadays, the age of profound darkness is our present time....for me it is not knew at is just that what was carefully hidden is just now in the open in order to try to strike down mankind for good..a 2500 years old story,trying to fulfil a self dictated prophecy started some 2500 years ago.....ending soon ,one way or the other..

All writings and interviews seem to confirm that k was a contacted person...for most of his life....

and really I think that this was "only" what life was meant to be..............possibly not to that extend for all, but with at least the taste of it for everyone....what a disaster :-((

Nevertheless I keep my own job within the sorrow network....the more "I" want,the more distress and such it is simple yes but...........with or without k I would be on that wavelength ..

Fist outer major and radical step will be to abandon competition and the myth of the best..this means integral cooperation and the planet ready for that ? not at all..some leading this mad game are closer to suicide than we think...and they well may go for the big "game" when killing themselves..out of ultimate suffering.....

Dan ...........

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Thu, 30 Jul 2015 #46
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Hi, Dan, I've just added a few paragraphs to the RB interview. Might be worth reading in the 'k-context'

Thanks John I am on it.

John Raica wrote:
RB : Living it and speaking out of his own perception. Take this other thing : they say that listening, pondering or reflecting makes for constant learning ; What traditionally is called 'listening' is listening to the scriptures, but having heard Krishnaji we can understand the deeper meaning of it. Also K was speaking of the modern world and he was giving something which would help humanity to emerge out of the disaster of the modern way of life- and all that didn't apply in the old days. So I think the ancient teachings came in a new form with all the power of personal knowledge and clarity.

Yes indeed, at least for me too and some more people, this listening k talks about has nothing in common with what the analyser means by listening with the intellectual "ears" through the distortion of personal knowledge and craving-desires and some sort of concentration so of exclusion ...

According to her , k was repeating all these ancient scriptures not parroting but out of living it. It makes sense to me...

Beyond all that, there seem to be something constant is not it ? something quite simple that we entirely distorted and are distorting by analysing it with a tiny segment of all what is..
we have reduced all what is to a tiny little corner of never accomplished out of sorrow mainly and the impossible escape from that...

over a period of time ,known to us, of 2600 years we would have had a handful of known "awakened" to themselves and their deep nature "persons",end of the story...

K has brought nothing in terms of "uncoveries" as such so in the absolute, but in terms of re discovery through his own living and experiences,yes indeed his own ways to tell the observer is the observed and more....

Now the all world keeps the same roots problems are really globally perceived for me, even in the obvious where competition which is an illusion brought by the necessary divisive analyser has to be "killed" by the global intelligence.....

back to the missing processes or at least to what looks sort of like that when going back analytically to what happens......missing processes that are apparently not reachable so the apparent catch 22, for the analyser...when it is the only capacity at work..

John Raica wrote:
PK : Were you shocked by reading Radha Sloss' biography ?

RB : It took me by surprise, specially since K said so many times about the normal, worldly living :
' you people you have gone through all this but this person has never gone through all that' So, I called Mary Lutyens and she confirmed that it was a fact. But the more I thought about, the more I've felt that K's words were true. Once I was walking with him on the Adyar beach and asked him' You have said that you never suffered- but Shiva Rao who was with you in the ship cabin when the news of your brother's death came said that Krishnaji cried and cried for three days. So, you went through that sorrow of parting, but after those three days you were completely at peace and radiant with happiness. So I understand that the consciousness who went through (the pain of) parting was not the consciousness that came out of that ; He only said : Yes, that's right'. So, when he said I've never gone through this', that explains it..

If k has found the ability to live sorrow each time it is there and not escape from it (which is not possible ) as we do, then this makes sense.

John Raica wrote:
PK. People have asked me how do you reconcile being the TS president with being a KFI trustee ?

RB : I don't think there is anything for me to reconcile. For example the fundamental work of the TS is to establish a nucleus of brotherhood for humanity, irrespective of religion, chaste, etc. Now how can that 'brotherhood' come unless one is free of all prejudice and barriers ? If the mind is free like that, is it very different from the 'unconditioned ' mind that K spoke of ? So, I see no contradiction : the TS has officially said, years ago that there is no authority in the society, not even Madam Blavatsky. Every person, through his own reflexion, purity of life, enquiry, has to discover the truth for himself.

The analyser is not capable to do such creative my morning feeling, well more than usual..

no authority so no hierarchy is a good vital start . Each talent must be a collective and shared adventure , but here we are still missing THE most vital innate talent of genuine and natural togetherness as a side effect of "something else" which is obviously not the case of humanity.....

well ,all this leaves me very much dubious in the sense that all seems totally hopeless in the sense of peace on earth so in each I leave all this in a corner..because the disappointed analyser may again be complicating what is going on and simple...lost of hope means that the analyser has some, in the unconscious again....the stress of it so created like sorrow must now be left alone with no expectation....and we'll eventually see what may or not come out of this...


Dan ...........

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Thu, 30 Jul 2015 #47
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
so I leave all this in a corner..because the disappointed analyser may again be complicating what is going on and simple...lost of hope means that the analyser has some, in the unconscious again....the stress of it so created like sorrow must now be left alone with no expectation....and we'll eventually see what may or not come out of this...

It seems to have spoken a bit and have revealed to the conscious a few hidden things, hidden cravings and desires..

to make it short as it appeared, willing to change society is wrong from step one as will is precisely what makes it insane...

this cannot so be a goal by any means...

Would that be so surprising if the k's formula changing yourself changing the world is the only good it appeared by itself this afternoon one more brings the other to be changed but not at the root with any analytical view,conclusion,formulae ...

the self-me etc has no concern with psychological roots of any kind at all..when doing so, it creates sorrow and pain because something is not properly working...we have a helper here...

this does not mean that will cannot act on what is going on up to a point of course, but this will still be war and mass murders again at some stage and still a meaningless insane life after all anyway..and the problem we have is so huge, enormous, that it now requires more than superficial changes in the structure of society..left, right,religion,politics,science etc as k said, they have all failed..

when I myself keep willing to act on let's say hierarchy and competition, yet I must say what I have seen , mentioning that is one thing but creating an idea around leads nowhere now, as this is not a root and division is the fact not unity...

what are the roots, what creates division ? again to be left absolutely alone as a questioning in some corner of the brain thinking is definitively useless and dangerous at this level....

etc etc

I may try to make that clearer tomorrow, not sure .


Dan ...........

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Thu, 30 Jul 2015 #48
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 691 posts in this forum Offline

A few transpersonal insights from K's Journal

( Having free inner?) space is (existing in?) order. Space is time, length, width and volume. This morning the
sea and the heavens are immense; the horizon where those yellow flowered
hills meet the distant sea is the order of earth and heaven; it is cosmic. That
cypress, tall, dark, alone, has the (inward ) order of beauty and the distant house on that
wooded hill follows the movement of the mountains that tower over the low-
lying hills; the green field with a single cow is beyond time.

But the man coming up the hill is held within the narrow ( mental, thought created?) 'space' of his problems.
There is an (inward) space of 'no-thingness' whose volume is not bound by time, by the measure of thought. This space the (thinking) mind cannot enter; it can only observe. In
this observation there is no 'experiencer' (no desiore to experience it?). This observation has no (personal) history, no (mental) associations, and so the 'observer' is (one with) that which is. Knowledge ( the 'knowing mind'?) is extensive but it has no (free inner?) space. There's only a verbal structure of the self, a skeleton, covered over by (the psychological accumulations of?) thought. ( The self-centred activity of ?) thought cannot penetrate its own structure; what it has put together thought cannot deny and even when it does deny, it is (in the expectation of a?) further gain. When the 'time' (temporal projection?) of the self is not, the ( free inward) space that has no measure is.

This complete network of 'time', the (self-projected?) future with its hopes and its attachments which are the (active) past. is the very structure of the 'self' , the activity of thought. Thought can in no way penetrate that ( free inner?) space of no time, do what it will. The methods that (human) thought has invented are not the key that will open the door, for there is no door, no key.
Thought ( the 'thinking' brain?) can only be aware of its own endless activity, of its own capacity to
corrupt, of its own deceits and illusions. It is ( creating both?) the 'observer' and the 'observed'. Its
'gods' (its values?) are its own projections and the worship of them is the worship of
yourself. What lies beyond thought, beyond the known, may not be imagined
or made a myth of or made a secret for the few. It is there for you to see.

How lovely it was that morning, the purity of light and the golden path the
sun made on those living waters. You were ( one with?) the world, the cosmos, the
deathless Beauty and the joy of Compassion. Only 'you' (the 'observer' ? ) weren't there; if 'you' were all this would not be. In ( the process of self-?) becoming there is uncertainty and instability. In ( the inward) 'no-thingness' there is absolute stability and so clarity. That which is wholly stable never dies; (decay and?) corruption is in becoming. The ( consciousness of the?) world is bent on becoming, achieving, gaining and so there is ( the associated?) fear of losing and dying. The human mind must go through that small 'hole' (self-enclosed space?) which it has put together, the 'self', to come upon this vast 'no-thingness' whose stability thought cannot measure.

( The self-identified?) thought would like to cultivate it, make it acceptable and so respectable, to be worshipped. Thought cannot put (that inner no-thingness ?) into any category and so
it thinks that it must be a delusion, or something for the select few. And
so ( not finding that total inner freedom?) thought goes about its own mischievous ways, frightened, cruel, vain and never stable, though its conceit asserts there is stability in its ( material posessions and?) actions, in the knowledge it has accumulated. This 'dream' (illusion?) becomes a reality which it has nurtured. But what thought has made real is not truth. ( The state of inner ? ) 'no-thingness' is not a ( thought created?) 'reality' but it is the truth. The small hole ( self-enclosed space oof?) the self is the 'reality' of thought, that ( psychological) skeleton on which it has built all its existence, (by giving?) 'reality' (to ) its fragmentation (isolation?) , the pain, the sorrow and its 'love'. The reality of its 'gods' is ( created by?) the careful structure of thought, its prayer, its rituals, its romantic worship. In this 'reality' there is no ( inward) stability or pure clarity.

The 'knowledge' of the self ( its 'known' reality ?) is (of) time, length, width and volume; and it can be accumulated, used as a ladder to become, to improve, to achieve. This (inner accumulation of ) 'knowledge' will in no way free the mind of the burden of its own (self-created?) 'reality'. You 'are' the burden; the truth lies in the seeing of it and that freedom is not the 'reality' of thought.
The seeing (of its truth or falseness?) is the (spontaneous) doing. This ( holistic) 'doing' comes from the (inner) stability, and from the clarity of 'no-thingness'.

This post was last updated by John Raica Thu, 30 Jul 2015.

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Thu, 30 Jul 2015 #49
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

According to her , k was repeating all these ancient scriptures not parroting but out of living it. It makes sense to me...

Hi, Dan, actually I think she meant that since those truths are 'eternal' or timeless, he perceived them anew, without the background of our collective cultural conditioning

Well John, this is more what I meant, in fact it is what I meant....

thanks for the important precision then...and well i am quite in the mood to go back to the journal so..let's go for that ...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 31 Jul 2015.

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Fri, 31 Jul 2015 #50
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The world is bent on becoming, achieving, gaining and so there is fear of losing and dying. The human mind must go through that small 'hole' which it has put together, the 'self', to come upon this vast 'no-thingness' whose stability thought cannot measure.

This is about the analytical process programming, its domain cannot be the present, it always is in the future ,including a split of a second ahead , unless it is a practical doing like seeding the vegetables, digging the soil etc etc ad libitum.This is a mechanical vital action to keep the body functioning , it is based on some sort of knowledge whether it is innate or innate and developed from it..or acquired by practice and so on...

As often I wonder why would what is left of our brain mind search for more, for something better, the best , god, the absolute , a mental dream where all is perfect etc etc etc..yes why ?

If there is no frustration, no pain, no sorrow, no boredom , it has no reasons to try such attempt, to imagine it, unless by nature, being mechanical is is going to keep searching for more, bigger, better ,the best ,absolute and immortality, which it does actually...."I am going to invade the universe as I am the only one worthy of it" , do think 7 billion human, whether it is conscious or unconscious.

So basically there may be no need for sorrow and all of it to be there to make us searching for the absolute in the future so achieving something,whatever it is, it is the neurotic state of the analytical mechanical mind which is simply at work ....caught in this tumbled process ,repeating itself ad libitum with no fact whatever the goal what matters now is thee process itself, the process is "in love" with is the analytical process itself as well as what is needed to make it work like personal memories and desires..fears and frustration,pain and self adoration etc etc.

It is not possible for the analyser to factually mention this "vast no-thingness" without having been the remote spectator of it....

K speaks from experiment, unless he is lying, when we do not unless we are lying, or unless this had been lived is just a matter of fact here ,nothing more... like I am better than if we go into that ,sorrow and war are right ahead.

K is mentioning stability here. I bear it in mind in one of those little corners used for that purpose to leave alone but alive some sayings like this one.

John Raica wrote:
thought would like to cultivate it, make it acceptable and so respectable, to be worshipped. Thought cannot put (that no-thingness ?) into any category and so
it thinks that it must be a delusion, or something for the select few. And
so thought goes about its own mischievous ways, frightened, cruel, vain and never stable, though its conceit asserts there is stability in its actions, in the knowledge it has accumulated. This 'dream' becomes a reality which it has nurtured. But what thought has made real is not truth. 'no-thingness' is not a 'reality' but it is the truth. The small hole of the self is the 'reality' of thought, that skeleton on which it has built all its existence,its 'reality', its fragmentation , the pain, the sorrow and its 'love'. The reality of its 'gods' is the careful structure of thought, its prayer, its rituals, its romantic worship. In this 'reality' there is no stability or pure clarity.

Well , when such moment happens ,as far as I know ,thought as "me" opposite to others and to the world and universe cannot even say that it is delusion or that it is something for the select few...excuse me for such triviality but in such moment thought just bloody f......g shuts the f..k up !!! what happens is not even a surprise if it was natural, which is the case I guess...

So I mean only a thought process as a "me" of course which does not know by experimentation such moment eventually can talk about what it does not know and qualify it of delusional state or that it would be for the selected few...

If that was true that it was for some selected few, then this entire universe is by nature insane in my view...if so why such contact is so peaceful , without fear, mentally fulfilling and so on ? why is sorrow gone, why the question of the meaning is gone, etc...because the Universe is not insane,but we surely are.

K qualifies thought as being mischievous, frightened, cruel, vain ,never stable, conceit, nice bunch of factual "qualities" ;-))

k: In this 'reality'(imagined by thought) there is no stability or pure clarity.

what I see to add right here is that the thought process when it never stops leading so working which is the case for us, never finds anything fully blossoming yet this is exactly what it is seeking,craving for, so this immense frustration of a so called life!!, as it is the process itself, the program itself in the absence of a sort of Intelligence above thought so using it properly , the process of thought which takes itself as a sort of "me"....whatever it does is not fulfilling by nature simply because that is not its purpose as a tool, as a tool it is made to be used by an X unknown factor which is not thought...when one task is finished , million of other tasks are trying to fulfil a never ending tumble of frustrations and sorrows...

OK and so what ? let's say that there is some truth in that, if not this must be thrown away right now of course,

describing,explanations, is one thing but does it bring any trigger to somehow bring changes into all this analytical process? I say not it does not ....

I find that k has a remarkable way of describing all this in the notebook, which I heard was not supposed to be that right John ?

John Raica wrote:
The 'knowledge' of the self ( its 'known' reality ?) is (of) time, length, width and volume; and it can be accumulated, used as a ladder to become, to improve, to achieve. This 'knowledge' will in no way free the mind of the burden of its own (self-created?) 'reality'. You 'are' the burden; the truth lies in the seeing of it and that freedom is not the 'reality' of thought.
The seeing is the (spontaneous) doing. This 'doing' comes from the stability, and from the clarity of 'no-thingness'.

So from the stability and clarity of the Origin !!

Are we the only "thing" living out of that ? well that is possible yes because all what is on earth is under the direct "control" of this Origin, only us we have this analytical tool which can choose to separate itself from "It", ...what a success...we call that of a good name: free will.......

Free, freedom , are some "no words" for me...apart from freedom from the analyser dictatorship, which k sum up with the title of one book: freedom from the known...

a little excerpt from it: Therefore our question now is, is it possible for the mind to live completely, totally, in the present? It is only such a mind that has no fear. But to understand this, you have to understand the structure of thought, memory and time. And in understanding it, understanding not intellectually, not verbally, but actually with your heart, your mind, your guts, you will be free from fear; then the mind can use thought without creating fear.

Can thought do that ? talking to me I say from experience no it can't..

Again without living instead of attempting to run away from what is wrong and brings very specific warnings like frustration, sorrow, pain ,suffering and all of it, I do not see such task possible at all...that is what I live so far....and some I know too at their own pace...

Having lived deep moments without fear, sorrow, pain, anxiety, frustration and with something in it totally fulfilling what is then life, when this is not there well, frustration is what is dominant....then frustration has to be lived and nos escaped etc etc etc

it seems to become more and more sort of continuous necessity to do that...

There already is partial relief of the heaviness of thought..I guess that this is a sort of "work" to be done....with the help of little helpers hidden behind what we try to run away from, like sorrow, pain, frustration, anxiety , suffering, meaningless life, war,the horror of our societies destroying people etc etc etc yet OK we have what we call "good machines"...plenty food for some in the fridge that we are now very suck with it, possessions, comfort , etc etc

whatever much of it we have ,this will never be enough as it does contain what we seek and because the analytical process keeps functioning stupidly in total blindness....and because too seeking is possibly not a root problem now ,a root problem as a child minded adult could now be the running away from that we are up a child I naturally seek pleasure and satisfying objects and games up to some extend as an adult I have to understand the limitation of it, when I should meet fear, pain ,sorrow etc ...then the battle between desires and pain starts....then I am dead, next !!

For me at this stage one thing vitally matters before anything else: what is the state of my brain mind ??
Then we all collectively work and create the vital needs somehow,as there are so many ways to do that, a very easy task in fact when the thieves of the collective work that most of us are are non existent..

simple and easy it is ...

Dan ...........

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Sat, 01 Aug 2015 #51
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

Hi John, thanks for this long talk...I have made my own sum up of it, then later on I will go back to it . This talk has many deeply interesting points.

John Raica wrote:
Q : Sir, I feel that this analogy with science it's 'side-tracking' us. A scientist is looking at ( material) facts which fall within a certain pattern, and if he can find a beautiful equation to describe it, that's the 'insight' for him . So the scientist's insight is related to the phenomenal world, while the insight you are talking about cannot exist as long as the 'self' (identification) is there .

Dan: agreed.

John Raica wrote:
K : You have touched on something: is it ( the inner process of?) time based that prevents insight ?
When we say that the dissolution of the 'ego' is necessary before there is insight, you are asking for time. So, let us go slowly, the whole process of the 'ego' is time. Right ?

Dan: I see that the field of application, of expansion is by no means the present, it always is concerning the future whether it is a split of second ahead, whether it is immortality so a forever future thought.

John Raica wrote:
Q : You mean, all thought is time, right ?

K Yes. So when you are still thinking in terms of time there is no insight

John Raica wrote:
Q : And that ( survival dominated thinking?) creates the 'ego'. Now, why does this happen ?

K : Because it (the brain?) has found ( psychological) safety in that. It hasn't realise the insanity of that.

Dan: I am still wondering if at the very root it is not only about the known ,field of thought and the unknown , not the field of thought ,before to be about security..then the analyser is transcription all this with its too limited view such thing as being about survival and safety ..I ma dead serious here.

John Raica wrote:
K : Wait. Be 'aware' of that. 'Aware' in the sense that you know (get) the full depth of these words « Time is ego ». Are you aware of the full significance, the depth of it, the meaning of it?
You know what is the quality of it ?

time is ego, and time is the future, the now is gone with this process if it is the only at work we have, unless it is about mechanical real work in this present of course,without which human would not exist..vital yet a killer at the same time the analyser is.

John Raica wrote:
K : Careful now, listen to it : the (old?) brain is reluctant to go into this because it may loose (the feeling of ?) complete (inner) security. As it has lived in (the field of ) time, it has worked in time, it has brought about (its own continuity in ?) 'time', in that (the brain has found a feeling of?) complete protection for itself.

Dan : or because it is now entering the unknown ???? so it cannot work and to keep working it constantly has to stay in the known, that it is poorly and possibly wrongly translating as survival and security

John Raica wrote:
K : Therefore, look at it. Can you observe (inwardly) without 'time' (interfering?) , without the ( control of the?) 'ego' ? Can you observe yourself without saying 'I am conditioned, I must be free of it' and all the rest of it ? Look at 'yourself', who is made up (of a bundle of memories?) And the brain is finding security in that thing (self-consciousness ?) which it has created as the 'me'. Having ( a feeling of ?) security there the brain is reluctant (unwilling, resisting?) to let it go because you don't know if there is ( a different form of inner?) security . When there is (the clarity of) 'insight', there is complete security.
(Thinking in terms of one's continuity in?) time doesn't give (an authentic) security.
Now, you have listened to it. Has this been a (total inner ) challenge, a shock ?
Why (not) ?

Dan:again is it about security or about the fact that the self has no capacity with the unknown ???? Insight capacities are of the unknown field, unknown to the "me" which is memory and the analytical program.

John Raica wrote:
K : No, Why isn't it (perceived as a total?) challenge ? You haven't answered my question

Q : Why does the brain resist ( this total?) challenge ?

K That's right. Why are you 'resisting' ?

Q : We don't perceive the 'danger' of it ?

K No, no ! You are off ! You are preventing yourself (from seeing it?) by talking.

Dan: something is missing here as I see it,

John Raica wrote:
K : No ! No ! ( the brain thinking in terms of?) 'time' ; you see how dangerous it is, and therefore you say 'It is the 'self' ' ; Of course, the time (process) 'is' the self.
We are asking : why don't you see this tremendous danger ? Is it by 'habit' ? Is it that you are not (vitally) interested in it ?

Dan: danger in terms of personal suffering, hurt, etc for oneself, then expanding itself to the so called outer world for various causes and effects chain reactions it becomes mass murder at the other end of the rope and huge sorrow of a no life,that is the danger ....This can be seen in one go of a split second insightfully only of course, the usual analyser cannot see it entirely in one split of a second...

John Raica wrote:
Q : Isn't it therefore a question of 'energy' ? It requires a tremendous energy to stay in that (non-movement?) It is so easy not to be in that !

K : Agreed. But when you have a (major existential crisis) the energy is there.

John Raica wrote:
K : You never give it ! I'll put it this way : Without insight life is a burden- 'burden' in the biggest sense of the word . So there must be (this quality of?) insight, otherwise what is the point of living? What is the point of going through all this horror that one goes through ?

Dan:alas this makes deep sense I say.

John Raica wrote:
K : Either it is (for you personally) a tremendous crisis or it's like this man who came to see me every day, and one morning he said : 'tell me about myself, really, I'm interested' I began to tell...and from that morning he never came back because it's too much. He saw it : 'It means that I'll have to give up my- etc, etc' . He couldn't take it. But here we 'take it', we assimilate a little bit (laughs)

John Raica wrote:
K I don't differentiate between the two ! They are both the same. When a man is 'emotional' (dominated by emotions) he is nonsensical. When he is 'intellectual', just words, he is nonsensical too

John Raica wrote:
Q : Take Mother Theresa and Hitler - we cannot put them in the same bracket...

K : I don't put them in the same bracket. All I say is they are working in the same field. They may be distant corners- it's an enormous field !

Dan: to reduce what happened to one insane man is false, there were billions insane person involved in that, as well as the great social helper never mentioned any roots of any kind leading to such disaster . The interesting point is that k see both in the same field of.....thought so of time..

John Raica wrote:
K : So, if you transform yourself- not from 'this' to 'that'- but if you end 'this' (time-bound self- consciousness?) , then it affects the rest of the world.

John Raica wrote:
Q : Sir, the man who has 'stepped out' of the field has affected the consciousness of those who are still in that field ?

K : Yes.

Q : The whole consciousness, of everybody ?

K : Yes. I am certain of it !

Q : What makes you feel so certain ?

K : It is so !

John Raica wrote:
Q : Now, what makes a certain person respond to you more ?

K : I know-it may be karma- don't go back to it all !

Q : I want to know, sir.

K : It may be pure chance ! It may be that they had a hell of a life and they feel that something must (change?)

Q : Sorrow ?

K : Their sorrow, or they may see something beautiful which they have never seen before. They notice inwardly this extraordinary sense of beauty and they say : By Jove !
So, there are all these factors

John Raica wrote:
Q : The man also says that there is an ending of sorrow and that becomes a reward for them...

K : Of course ! So they are thinking in terms of expecting a reward

Q : So, is that the (psychological) barrier ?

K : Perhaps, sir ! That's one barrier.

Dan: that is the specificity of properly dealing the only way with what lies behind sorrow, it is impossible to live it if there are any expectation, the unconscious ones other words the analyser cannot deal with such problems at all....this is my experience, and the main point I develop so far.

John Raica wrote:
K : Yes, if he's willing to listen! Therefore the very listening is the awakening of that Intelligence. Then that intelligence can communicate with the other. You follow what I'm saying ? If you are actually free from all sense (expectation of?) a reward, that is the ending of sorrow. But this is not a reward ; it is so !

Dan: that is not the listening we know, at all, in my gut feelings. but indeed, this is practically never done with no expectation for a reward ,sign of the leadership of the totalitarian analyser as I see it...

Q : For you this is not a reward, but for us when you say that, you are holding a promise, a reward

Q2 : **Because we think in terms of our personal sorrow ending...

K : I know. There is not only the personal sorrow, there is also a global sorrow.

John Raica wrote:
Q ; **Sir, if I may ask you : were you once in the field ?

K : I question it too !** (laughs)

Q : So, you say it is possible, but you haven't stepped out of that field- you were never in the field.
So in other words the question is whether it is possible (for someone caught in the field of thought and time?) to step out of that field

K : A man who is not born in the 'field' may have more clarity than the man in the field. So he says' Get out. This is the way out !'

Q : But he didn't have to get out, he was out...

John Raica wrote:
Q : But are you not saying that a man who is caught (in the field of thought-time) can step out ?

K : I say so, obviously !

Q : Do you know a single person who has done it ?

K : That's not my business !

Q : And you are concerned that people 'step out', otherwise you would not be at it...

K : Of course !

John Raica wrote:
K: Look, Asit, you've got a good brain ! Why don't you use the brain for this ? What is preventing you ?

Q : I don't know, I wonder about it a great deal

K : Don't 'wonder' , you'll never find it ! If you've got a good brain why is it deteriorating ?

Q : What is in this brain, or mind, or body that is making it go in this direction though he sees it's the wrong direction ?

K : What is preventing ? I can give you a dozen reasons, what is the (central ) fact ? This is applicable to everybody ! Is it that we are innately, so profoundly lazy ? We've got to this ( time based?) lethargy...

Q : It is the easy way out. So easy...

K : Which means, we are seeking comfort ! Psychologically seeking comfort and we want to remain comfortably in that amorphous state of laziness !

Dan: is it that we are not shaken by such no inner life at all full of hurts and sorrows, by all the crimes permanently committed by our societies IN OUR NAMES, and that we choose to turn a a voluntary blind eye to all that, so that not only there is no awareness of the inner of course but even of the outer, do I know that when I agree with the myth of competition and the one of the best, both linked, do I know then that I am all the wars of this planet too???? ...then say after all this has little meaning so at least let us go for a comfortable shelter as a self cocooning where I may feel great....etc

John Raica wrote:
K : I know, it may be European education. The western civilisation is much more stronger - with all their industry, their comfort, their money- you follow ? That's much more attractive than the other. I'm not saying that you are trapped in it ! But we like this 'amorphous laziness' of comfort !

Q : Is that all ?

K : That may be the central factor. You've got a candle, you've got the matches, but my God, to get up and go and light the match ! (laughs)

Q : But isn't that due to the lack of insight ?

K : No, no ! Because there may be a tremendous danger in getting up and trying to 'light the candle' ! He may see things which may shock him, frighten him , which might 'destroy' him !

John Raica wrote:
Q : But you cannot define what this 'right place' is...

K : Oh yes, you can ! Didn't you hear what that man ( K) said ? If I have nothing psychologically in me, it's perfect order !

Q : And this 'putting things in their right place' is (related to) perceiving things clearly ?

K : To see things clearly !

Q : That puts it in the right place.

K : That's very simple, that doesn't need insight- from that comes insight !

John Raica wrote:
K : You do not have to do it constantly. Once you put it (the psychological things?) in its right place, it's finished !

Dan: as a matter of experience this seems right yes.Each insight creates a new situation and again and again..

John Raica wrote:
Q : In other words, sir, the moment (inwardly) there is attachment, things are not in the 'right place' ?

K : That's it !

Q : The moment there's no attachment it (the psyche) is automatically, forever in its right place ?

K : Right !

John Raica wrote:
K : Of course, (the search for) pleasure, comfort : but where there is attachment there is no freedom.
If you like to be caught in the net of comfort, fear, occasional pleasure, occasional sense of openness and so on- remain there !

John Raica wrote:
K : Of course, sir, when you are in a crisis, you listen. When someone near to you dies , you listen damn well ; you are shocked by it. You are in a state of concentrated energy.

Q : Yes, because that suffering is affecting me within the field.

K : No ! It is 'challenging' you to question the field ! It is challenging you to say
For God's sake, what is this ? Why am I going through this ? Why is everybody going through this? But you say : I need comfort, it must be somewhere- and you're off !
We've got plenty of (such ) challenges, all the time. I am challenging you right now, but you wouldn't even listen...

John Raica wrote:
K : You see, you're off again ! You would not 'listen' even for five seconds. That's why I feel that in our life nobody has told us : 'I love you' . When someone is saying that, you listen, you don't discuss, you don't play around. You say, My God, is that so ? How marvellous !

Q : I think everybody has become very cynical and one doesn't...

K : Of course, absolutely cynical ! Because they have been cheated that way !

Q : It's happening so many times- (laughs) …

K : The Indian peasant, sir, is dirt poor, he has been so exploited, (but if) anybody comes and says 'I love you, I'll help you', he says 'Thanks God ! (laughs). I think we got somewhere.

Dan ...........

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Sat, 01 Aug 2015 #52
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
K : The Indian peasant, sir, is dirt poor, he has been so exploited, (but if) anybody comes and says 'I love you, I'll help you', he says 'Thanks God ! (laughs). I think we got somewhere.

still going on today as so many hoping for much money and all of it so for more possession and success have been cheated by the people lending money to them with huge % of interest to pay back so that so many commits suicide as the only way out they see out of this misery bitter...

But this world is a collective creation, we all are the creator of that at our levels, k was not, yet totally negating it ,apart from exceptions.

If according to the last excerpt k always had been outside the field , of the dictatorship only of the analysing thought or me or whatever name suits,then it may have had difficulties to entirely comprehend our difficulties with this..I mean to suggest that this or that would have been a crucial step or point to deal with....

For my part I think, that k not being that concerned like we are by all that pain problems than we are unable to deal with, that he may have underestimate our problems caused by sorrow , the inability to deal with such question and so the ignorance of what to do with well as a direct effect of not properly "dealing" with sorrow,which for me is that the unconscious then does not reveal itself , in what I know for myself this was what happened, there was no unconscious revealing itself apart from a few times in time of too heavy crisis hidden in talking nightmares, so no deep unconscious revelations by itself in mysterious way before I really got what to do with sorrow..which basically is : nothing !! but a nothing free of all expectation of any kind, this includes the unconscious part of the brain mind...

Dan ...........

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Sun, 02 Aug 2015 #53
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

I think, that k not being that concerned like we are by all that pain problems than we are unable to deal with, that he may have underestimate our problems caused by sorrow ,

Or, Dan, perhaps he was aware of it but thought that the message should passed on to the future generations with more freedom from the daily chores

In fact John, he is very much concerned with all that, to know that it is needed to read all what he said and is transcribed in books...I have made a very intensive research about that out of extreme curiosity..

At some stage it just was not a subject at all any more for some reason I cannot know about, he seems to have gone more "touching" more people.

As to some hypothetical future generation reading k,well I have no clue

John Raica wrote:
In fact he was quoted to say (in this very PK book): "It is not difficult to see the truth (about something) but let go the untruth". I Guess this natural, instinctive resilience of the human brain to let go its anchorage in the past is one of the big handicaps we've all inherited.

again here without having had "revelations" about the analytical mind's functioning, I do not see how it is possible to see any deep down universal or personal truth/falseness apart from those we are craving for or rejecting...I say that as this was like anyone my life for 40 years ish.
then since some major parts of the analytical program as well as many unconscious cravings and unsolved problems are revealing themselves right after having dealt properly with sorrow, so after having act on duality towards unity without having a clue that this is what was happening , I can clearly see that it is not about the all brain ,which would be perhaps resilient, but it is only about a part of it, the analytical survival tool, which, bottom line, is incapable to deal with anything it has not recorded before ,as its activity is only happening in the field of the known...why is it so ,because it is in fact ONLY capable of watching its own recording, the one of the future included, and then it is analysing it to reach whatever its program are forcing it to accomplish...all this is happening in total blindness..

then again it is for me about the known and what is unknown to the analyser, the analyser can only be superficial, that is its set up, it is neither good nor bad, its domain of activity being what is superficial and as such its activity is vital to sustain physical life..

this is where we try to live...some say that we have a wonderful world of machines, that we are geniuses etc etc self prising themselves without having any clue that they do so because there is a tiny program which we have and which function is to give the analyser an incentive to push it to work, proud of its without those incentives like self pride, self rewarding, self admiration ,idea of profit , etc etc etc, the analytical program would simply not function at it would not without desires of all sorts.....

with a IQ of 100 as well as 200 , basically we all have only an analytical life....

And honestly it seems that most of the world flock and self proclaimed elites goes for that only, especially since some have so many entertaining "machines" to keep the analyser busy 24/hours a day,night sleep included too! until another tragic event which will be there sooner or later break it all one more time as we never listen..the analyser working alone being flawed, another tragic event will necessarily take place... this shows the lack of personal interest for one's life according to me......

I deny the fact that we would even be egotistic....we are not even that, we are only running away into personal achievements , sign of escapism from life as it is..each one searching for personal absolute shelter...and because we have no links with others , then we use them in order to do so....then war,stealing and all of it is what happens....

well, it may really be game over you know....for now I mean, as all can really change dramatically swiftly now, I do not think that we are going to avoid the big tragic event which I personally do not fear, the falling empire in which is included a 2500 years old legend will not let it go easily ...

so the time is to understand I guess,as it always was in fact of course well so it was never that bad as this step is vital and possible a first one..

  • First and Last Freedom, The
    J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 2 'WHAT ARE WE SEEKING?'

  • J. Krishnamurti The First and Last Freedom Chapter 3 'INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY'

  • WHAT IS IT THAT most of us are seeking? What is it that each one of us wants? Especially in this restless world, where everybody is trying to find some kind of peace, some kind of happiness, a refuge, surely it is important to find out, isn't it?, what it is that we are trying to seek, what it is that we are trying to discover. Probably most of us are seeking some kind of happiness, some kind of peace; in a world that is ridden with turmoil, wars, contention, strife, we want a refuge where there can be some peace. I think that is what most of us want. So we pursue, go from one leader to another, from one religious organization to another, from one teacher to another.

  • Now, is it that we are seeking happiness or is it that we are seeking gratification of some kind from which we hope to derive happiness? There is a difference between happiness and gratification. Can you seek happiness? Perhaps you can find gratification but surely you cannot find happiness. Happiness is derivative; it is a by-product of something else. So, before we give our minds and hearts to something which demands a great deal of earnestness, attention, thought, care, we must find out, must we not?, what it is that we are seeking; whether it is happiness, or gratification. I am afraid most of us are seeking gratification. We want to be gratified, we want to find a sense of fullness at the end of our search.

  • After all, if one is seeking peace one can find it very easily. One can devote oneself blindly to some kind of cause, to an idea, and take shelter there. Surely that does not solve the problem. Mere isolation in an enclosing idea is not a release from conflict. So we must find, must we not?, what it is, inwardly, as well as outwardly, that each one of us wants. If we are clear on that matter, then we don't have to go anywhere, to any teacher, to any church, to any organization. Therefore our difficulty is, to be clear in ourselves regarding our intention, is it not? Can we be clear? And does that clarity come through searching, through trying to find out what others say, from the highest teacher to the ordinary preacher in a church round the corner? Have you got to go to somebody to find out? Yet that is what we are doing, is it not? We read innumerable books, we attend many meetings and discuss, we join various organizations - trying thereby to find a remedy to the conflict, to the miseries in our lives. Or, if we don't do all that, we think we have found; that is we say that a particular organization, a particular teacher, a particular book satisfies us; we have found everything we want in that; and we remain in that, crystallized and enclosed


You now k said or rather suggested somehow that sorrow can be solved for good , yet on his death bed John you recall me that he said this: sorrow i though I lost you!!

What I know by experience is that when the all brain so all capacities are turned on, there is no sorrow, no fear but a deep and fulfilling feeding energy where the questioning of the meaning is not, this weird other energy is free from sorrow and deeply in peace and much more..

What I know too, is that when back to usual use of the brain,sorrow is not solved nor is fear...the analyser has not at all deeply changed, it basically remain the same old chap ..

so if unlike k most human will spend their entire life with the absence of this weird energy ,yet it can be there from time to time,solving sorrow when it occurs remain a task to be accomplished.....

even there when this is properly done,there is real peace within oneself and togetherness is there by itself as a side effect of someone who is curing his hurts and wound, then he is not going to use others, that is already over at this stage without being constantly or even rarely or even not at all within the "benediction" of this weird universal bliss.....

the relief from sorrow, even partial through living it properly as it should be will already change the face of this planet ....


Dan ...........

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Mon, 03 Aug 2015 #54
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

the relief from sorrow, even partial through living it properly as it should be will already change the face of this planet ....

Hi, Dan, I believe that this is not feasible at this point in our cultural evolution. One main reason is that 'sorrow' is not perceived 'per se' - but our perceptions of sorrow are pre-processed by the human brain caught in the process of 'becoming' (or to use the 'holistic' K terminology , 'time') So the becoming ( hopeful ?) brain is aware that things are not what they should be, but immediately a way out is projected in a virtual dimension of time ( again the K holistic terminology is 'escaping')

Hi John, interesting points indeed.

agreed with what you imply here, like "not feasible" I would add: far the infatuated with itself....self or me or whatever, still has some illusions to live on,depends on where you live on this planet of today many will die again under democratic and peaceful bombing, in the total indifference of the occidental world and friends bought for a cheap price, apart from a growing bunch of exceptions .....

I really would rather talk , my view only, of cultural and mental decline John ...since this weird energy crossed my life, this is totally obvious for me , in fact it is just there for me,there is no thinking about that..I see the analytical brain trying to find any proof that it is right and in that matter lies do very well too.

in such "weird" moments there is no pride, no comparison, no quality,no value, no hierarchy, no fear,no sorrow, no hope, no happiness, no joy and all of it, it is beyond all that so beyond analytical values and views
..there is so for me clearly no evolution but practical outer superficial changes in the way we produce vital that sense I agree with k who mentioned that for himself there is no psychological evolution...which implies that psychologically we are a finish product from our beginning as human,when was that? this is unknown !!...and in many cultures all over the planet we can see "living vestiges" than man did not always had been so insane and violent and not only turned on outside escaping away in time as you say....another myth ..

John Raica wrote:
So the brain is taking its deeper feelings of sorrow, insufficiency, incompleteness, loneliness as being caused by something and therefore if it can change the cause it can 'fix' the whole issue. Obviously, (for us?) this cause-effect approach does not really work, so eventually the brain is getting entangled in its efforts to solve this 'proteic' issue. Then it usually gets into a 'don't care' state which inwardly is leading to indolence and decay ( still a deteriorating aspect of 'time'!)

indeed, I agree with that sequence in time of the analyser trying to solve, so it thinks, such deep does not work as it is meant to, is the fact it seems to be..leading to indolence and decay..I have drowned deeply into that..

John Raica wrote:
So, to make an (ages ? ) old story short, the human brain got accustomed (conditioned) to put a 'positive' spin on its actual ( 'what is') state of inner fragmentation, isolation, sorrow by projecting a solution in the future or simply by ignoring the issue - and experiencing the comforts or discomforts of modern civilisation

"shortly put", I agree with what you say here John. A solution in the future is what religion do, politic does and science promises what the analyser do as it is its only field where it can expand itself..yes indeed there is some cocooning comfort for some...

tu dois connaitre cette histoire vraie: demain on rase gratis,ce fut une pub mise à la vitrine d'un coiffeur Parisien, le passant intéréssé qui voyait cela repassait le lendemain et bien sur le coiffeur montrait alor la pub : demain on rase gratis ,personne ne beneficia donc de ce rasage gratis....marrant non comme "baise couillon" ??

John Raica wrote:
As a result, a whole 'quality' of the human brain- and of our civilisation as a whole- is going down the drain. Perhaps seeing this whole picture as an actual fact may be close to what you're calling 'living sorrow properly'.

Down the drain yes, for me I must say that it is not any news at all, it is just that some of what was hidden until now now is brought into the obvious in order to attempt a strike on mankind by some self proclaimed elites..somehow things are all means this is needed now one way or the other.

John: Perhaps seeing this whole picture as an actual fact may be close to what you're calling 'living sorrow properly.

It is yes. When it is about sorrow or rather about what is behind such sort of "no word" , it seems that you get it quite globally, this includes yourself and the global too both caught in this nasty "sensation" ...I never was searching for all that sort of "awareness" , but yes it is about seeing a whole picture without looking for it; I really feel it as a whole view in one is a sort of concentrated piece of "factual" informations...

to be precise the whole picture includes the awareness of the self functioning, the state of sorrow so of frustration of life which are lived, the outer global circumstances( competition ,money, business, wars,banks,economy,politic,lies,false history,false science, and some truth lost in all that of course etc etc etc), the outer lies and falseness, the sensing of the suffering of people even if they look so happy, etc etc etc all this being quite permanent ...and living it, finding ways to live that as it is not in my case is there...this nearly destroyed me....

I do not have the impression to be "somewhere", It seems not to be about such thing..

John : Again, my second point is that the true solution is not to be found 'inside the box' but rather by taking a step back and seeing the total picture- and this might be the big difference between these teachings and the others..

The Buddha’s teaching are mostly gone for me as he wrote nothing, yet some may be left but it is not the original words that we I am cautious with that.

I have read about remarkable insights made by north and south american Indian shamans , close to what k would tell about fear close to us so , to the depth of this brain mind...

I don't know for you, but sometimes i feel all that entirely hopeless in the present..for me what we call modern science which takes root in the ancient Greece and Rome has clearly postponed an eventual awakening by giving us more ways to escape into anything but living "what is"..this hopelessness is probably as usual the sign as any sorrow is that unconsciously there is again a or more craving , an analytical goal in mind so another escape..which is could be this : we change the world according to this and that and all will be fine...

The analyser keeps staying, and that is entirely logical, in its too limited field of the known, too limited to be able to live the full span of life, as there is nothing permanent as such at all apart from the huge rock in the mountains if and when compared to our life span, psychologically speaking; we can just built up together a relative stable outer vital security , if working in a togetherness spirit, which we refuse....not a capacity of the analyser.

At this point whether the pain of such nonsense is lived ,whether it is our culture it is negated , it does not exist,so is never lived so it is escaped, yet of course it does exist, but poor words have no say here....

K had tried a wide approach of all those problems we have..sorrow is one of them, then at some stage he has develop different approach where sorrow was not there..

As we both said, to read k practically implies to read all of it with care...I remember that he was advising that too..

you mention other teachings,which one had you in mind ??

For me I see some sort of link between old Chinese wisdom, Indian as in India world, Native Indians and any other who has now disappear, I do not see any in the obvious in what is called the occidental world , yet hidden behind apparent fantasies we could read tales from Homer 800 BC for example which seems to talk about all that using some sort of code and middle ages tales up to Jean de la Fontaine..but mostly hidden in some sort of apparent fantasies and not as obvious criticism of man's arrogant and perverted attitude ...

So k's words seem out of the league yes...


Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 03 Aug 2015.

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Mon, 03 Aug 2015 #55
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 691 posts in this forum Offline

K to himself: the root-cause of 'psychological' disorder

Everything seems to live (integrated) in (an universal) order, in its own order - the sea with its tides, the new moon and the setting of the full moon, the lovely spring and the warmth of summer. Even the earthquake of yesterday has its own 'order' (a resettling of the tectonic plates?) . Order ( harmony?) is the very essence of the universe - the order of birth and death and so on. It is only man that seems to live ( in the artificial order of self-projected time?) in such disorder, confusion. He has lived that way since he began.

Talking to the visitor sitting on the veranda, with the red climbing rose and a young wisteria and the smell of the earth and the trees, to discuss about human disorder, human confusion and misery, seems so utterly out of place. But there he is, friendly, knowledgeable and probably given (addicted?) to thought. The fog is clearing, there is that spring sunshine and the lizard is coming out, warming itself on the rock, and all the little things of the earth are busy. They have their order, they all seem to be so happy, enjoying the sunshine, with no man near to hurt them, to spoil their day.

Q : If one may ask,what is to you the most important thing in life? What to you is the most essential quality that man must cultivate?

K : If you ( are trying to?) 'cultivate' it , as you cultivate the fields of the earth, then it is not the most essential (most spiritual ?) thing. It must happen naturally, easily, without any self-centred motives. The most important thing for each human being, surely, is to live in order, in harmony with all the things around him - even with something (an environment?) that is ( becoming) ugly, vulgar, without letting it affect or alter the course of his life, alter or distort the order in which he is living. Surely, sir, ( the sense of being integrated in an universal?) order is the most important thing in life, or, rather, one of the most important.'

Q : Why shouldn't order be simply a quality of a brain that can act correctly, happily, precisely (efficiently?) ?

K : ( Universal) Order isn't created by thought. Order isn't something that you follow day after day, practise, conform to. As the streams join the sea, so the river of Order, is endless. But that order cannot be (perceived?) if there is any kind of inner struggle to achieve, or slipping into a routine, into various well defined (settled psychosomatic?) habits. All that is not Order. ( Self-isolation and its resulting ?) conflict is the very source of our disorder, is the very cause.

Q : ( In the material world) everything struggles, doesn't it? Those trees, they have struggled to exist, struggled to grow. The marvellous oak there behind this house, it has withstood storms, years of rain and hot sunshine, it has struggled to exist. Life is conflict, it is a turmoil, a storm. And you are saying, are you not, that order is a state in which there is no conflict? It seems like (you are?) talking in a strange language, something utterly foreign to one's own daily life, one's own way of thinking. Do you, if I am not impudent, live in (such an) Order in which there is no conflict whatsoever?'

K : Is it very important to find out if another is living (inwardly) without effort, without conflict? Shouldn't you rather ask if you, as a human being, who live in ( conflict and ) disorder, can find out for yourself the many causes - or perhaps there is only one cause - of this disorder? Those flowers know anything about order nor disorder, they just 'exist'. Of course, if they were not watered they would die, but dying also is ( part of?) their order. It seems to be the nature of the (material) world: the big things live on little things, and the bigger live on the big. This is the cycle in the world of nature. We know from time to time this sense of total harmony and also (more often than not?) the pain, the anxiety, the sorrow, the (inner and outer?) conflict. The cause of (our inward, psychological) disorder is the everlasting 'becoming' - ( the desire?) to become (better) , to seek ( one's ) 'identity', the struggle to 'be' .

As long as the (human) brain, which is so heavily conditioned, is measuring, moving psychologically from 'this' to 'that', it must inevitably bring about a sense of conflict, and this is ( generating its own?) disorder. Not only becomingt something 'more', 'better', but the ( gratifying) feeling of achieving, gaining - as long as there is this duality (between what one is and what one should be?) , there must be (a time-binding?) conflict. And out of this conflict is (coming) disorder. Perhaps one is aware of all this, but being negligent (not diligent?) in this 'awareness', one 'carries on' living in the same way, day after day all the days of one's life. This duality is not just on the verbal (intellectual?) level but is a deeper division as the 'thinker' and (his) thought. The 'thinker' (mental entity) is 'put together' (automatically generated?) by (the thinking brain?) thought, the 'thinker' is the (identification with the knowledge of the?) past, the thinker is knowledge, and (the process of) thought too is born out of knowledge. Actually there is no division between the 'thinker' and the (process of self centred) thought, they are one inseparable unit; but thought plays a clever ( self-protective) trick upon itself, it divides (splits?) itself. Perhaps this constant (self-) division , this inner fragmentation, is the cause of our (living in?) disorder. Just to see the truth of this, that the 'perceiver' is (not separated from what is?) 'perceived', ends this (artificially generated?) disorder.

The morning ends and the sun now is bright and there are a thousand shadows. The earth is quiet but man is lost and confused.

This post was last updated by John Raica Mon, 03 Aug 2015.

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Tue, 04 Aug 2015 #56
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Actually there is no division between the 'thinker' and the thought, they are one inseparable unit; but thought plays a clever trick upon itself, it divides itself. Perhaps this constant division , this inner fragmentation, is the cause of our disorder. Just to see the truth of this, that the 'perceiver' is 'perceived', ends this disorder.

The morning ends and the sun now is bright and there are a thousand shadows. The earth is quiet but man is lost and confused.

Hello John, again a very interesting quote.

Of course this can be said of sorrow too like

"Actually there is no division between the 'thinker' and sorrow, they are one inseparable unit; but thought plays a clever trick upon itself, it divides itself. Perhaps this constant division , this inner fragmentation, is the cause of our disorder. Just to see the truth of this, that the 'perceiver' is the perceived so is sorrow ends this disorder".

Sorrow being a cataclysmic event for the perceiver which says " this is not me, it is not part of me, I have no link with it etc ", from the moment it is perceived as two separated objects then it offers some analytical and conceptual options to be taken by this perceiver like : I try to ignore it , to tame it, to take advantage from it, to face it , to use it,to forget it, to drink, to take alcohol, to work 25/h a day, to use it , to kill oneself etc and whatever ad libitum leading to mass murders for profit and for many totally unknown reasons in it is one inseparable unit, anything it is trying to do does not even exist, as there are no two entities but one inseparable entity...the perceiver analyser can only use its capacity to find survival means of all kind so works when it is about objects, things, techniques, etc as soon as it is not about matter , it must shut up but must do it consciously , this is what what is really hidden behind what the perceiver catalogued as sorrow so pain is meant to

For me this is why there is sorrow, and it could even well be a clear will out of an absolute necessity originated from this Origin-Universe in order and deep peace,which is my own feeling about that.

It seems to me ,when I check my own series of events that without sorrow left alone without one single, even hidden of course, expectation, nothing in terms of another process, kthing, etc would have taken place.

Such wander in life for a human "item" is loaded with sorrow arising at some stage in life...

If it is random, it is unluckily constant for all of us, not bad for a random property , then what can we do but fight others to forget our deep pain as a mad insane way to try to escape.

if it is not random at all and has, as I sense for me, a property, like billions of billions of other properties of the Universe, then this specific property must be understood for what it is, if I am at all interested in finding out if there is the possibility for it to be somehow sublimate.

If I think that is part of life in the sense "nothing can be done here" , like suffering ,striving, effort ,achieving ,success ,fighting, succeeding, loosing, killing or being killed, survival at all cost and so on ad libitum..then consequently our civilisation are certainly on the right track...

But then this does not match this immense weird and totally peaceful energy which more or less crosses our lives sometimes is not it...

So k has brought this formula out of his experience ,the formula that says:

  • "Just to see the truth of this, that the 'perceiver' is the 'perceived'( or sorrow etc), ends this disorder"

is a major statement,which by itself did not seem sufficient at all to provoke series of "positives" reaction to such statement within people around this gives me the impression that even such a true statement, the truth of it must be lived so seen, is not enough to trigger a step into radical changes....

it has a link with the known and the unknown, so with the capacity to be able to deal or not with both so , clearly the perceiver has none with the unknown, this is seen deeply when the self program is revealing itself,and here again k has stated that self awareness revealing is one serious key to all that....

To be honest... if k's words becomes another anchor,which it blindly did for me long ago, yes then his words can offer another new shelter like any religion can offer as they are remarkably suggestive, eloquent, brilliant; I think that we all said : yes this is what I vaguely sort of knew without really putting my finer on it..

after all my own blah bla

one step ahead close to the bottom line is ,

  • krishnamurti:"Just to see the truth of this, that the perceiver is the perceived( or sorrow, pain, boredom fear etc), ends this disorder"

But this is not enough for me, never was ,yet seems so true. The perceiver must dissolve itself with sorrow as a catalyst...without any goal in mind...that is the it remains one thing, to be in sorrow and stay with that somehow to be found by anyone..and this with the necessity of : whatever may happen..

that may be THE starting point as mentioned by Mr B some 2500 years ago..and with less insistence ,yet it is clearly as well said too by Mr K. Apart from those two, there seem to be no one else known in real past history on such wavelength..Someone recently told me that Mr B hesitated a lot before to widely talk about all that...I do not know if this is true.

When there is this revealing of the analytical program ,out of the blue ,unexpectedly and as "it" wishes, it is clearly seen that the division perceiver perceived is absolutely necessary, this division creates a gap within what is not of time with no beginning and no end , it is a shelter within the present, in which "something" can analyse in order to create means for the body to live....then for some reasons "we" stayed in this bubble...sorrow as a catalyst so as a tool to be left alone somehow is meant to burst it...then will happen what will happen..who really cares about that when the state of the mind is in peace and not in pain....

All what we-I love and are attached to is totally secondary..

then our meaningless and painful life with a few corners of blue sky resides in the separation from the Origin, in the gap created between the present and what is remote from that...which is the case of the analyser or the perceiver...then we may learn to properly use this analytical functions where needed, that practically all what we have to do, by knowing that using it only as we do is caught in pain from birth to death........

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 04 Aug 2015.

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Tue, 04 Aug 2015 #57
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 691 posts in this forum Offline


K : What does 'death' mean to you, Sir?

Q : As far as I can understand, 'death' means the ending of a living thing, a sudden ending of that person which has been living with all its memories, ideas, pain, anxiety, joys, pleasures – all that has come to an end. And the remembrance of all that, ( of the one who is still alivenot only brings tears but also the realization of one's own inadequacy, one's own loneliness. The idea of (a sudden) separation from the attachments and the pain of attachment - all that and more ceases suddenly. That is death. The ending of a long life, or the ending of a new born baby.

K : It is very important to understand the way we actually live now- why we live this way after so many centuries. Isn't it one constant struggle? Conflict, pain, joy, pleasure, anxiety, loneliness, depression, and working, labouring for others or for oneself; being self-centred and occasionally generous, envious, angry, trying to suppress the anger, or letting that anger go rampant, and so on. This is what we call 'living' - the weariness of it all, the boredom, the inanities: this is our life. Not only yours but the life of all human beings on this earth. This ( inner) agony, fear has gone on from the ancient of days until now - labour, strife, pain, uncertainty, confusion, and joy and laughter. All this is part of our existence. And the coming to an end of all this is called 'death'. Death puts an end to ( the physical objects of ? ) all our attachments, however superficial or however deep. The attachment to one's family, every form of attachment must end with death. Is there such a thing as immortality? The immortal ( essence of our consciousness?) is that which is beyond time and is totally unaware of this ( physical) ending. Is the 'self' ( centred consciousness?) , the "me", immortal? The "me", the I, with all its qualities is put together through time, which is thought- that 'self' (identified consciousness?) can never be immortal.

Secondly (this is a little bit more challenging?): is it possible to ( inwardly) live with death? Why have we divided death from living? Death is part of our life, it is part of our existence - the dying and the living are inseparable. The (continuity of our) envy, t sorrow, the ( self-isolating?) loneliness, and the (occasional) pleasures that one has, which we (generically ) call 'living', and this ( 'ending'?) thing called death - we are always separating life and death. This is a 'psychological' problem which we should question, see the inward implications of, not (self) deceptively. Another (psychological) question involved is the issue of 'time' -the time that separates the living from the ending. Where there is such a 'separation', from "what is" to "what should (or could?) be", ( a mental process of?) time is involved. Sustaining this ( temporal) division between that which is called 'death' and that which is called 'life', is to me a major ( deteriorating?) factor. When there is this division, this separation there is the fear (of 'not being'?). and the effort of overcoming that fear and the (compensating) search for comfort, satisfaction, for a sense of continuity. (We are talking about the (in ner) 'psychological' world not the physical world or the technical world.) It is time that has put the 'self' (consciousness) together and it is ( the same process of) thought that sustains the ego, the self. If only one could really grasp the significance of ( this thought created?) 'time' and the (resulting) separation, psychologically, of man against man, race against race, one type of culture against another. This separation, this division, is brought about by ( the joint process of?) 'thought and time'. And to 'live with death' means a profound change in our whole outloo on existence. (It implies) to end (the 'psychological' ) 'attachments' without time and motive, that is 'dying while living.' Love ( a loving mind?) has no time and is never 'personal'; one may 'love' another but when that love is narrowed down to one person, then it ceases to be (unconditional) Love. Where there really is (a quality of?) Love (in our mind and heart?) there is no division of ( created by thought created ?) 'time' and all the complexities of life, all the misery and confusion, the uncertainties, jealousies, anxieties involved. One has to give a great deal of ( meditative?) attention to (the inner process of?) 'time and thought'. Not that one must live only in the present, which would be utterly meaningless (in the modern world?). ( The thought-created?) time is the 'active memory of the?) past, modified (by the 'present' circumstances?) and continuing ( projecting itself into?)j the future'. It's a 'continuum' and (the self-centred) thought holds on, clings to this. It clings to something which it has itself created, put together.

Another (third and more universal?) question is that you 'are' the (consciousness of the?) entire humanity, « you are the world and the world is you » - what happens to you when you die? You and are the (psychical) manifestation of that Stream of (collective) Consciousness. That Stream (shared colectivistic mentality?) has conditioned (imprinted?) the human brain, and as long as we remain conditioned by (that mentality of self-centred ?) greed, envy, fear, pleasure, joy and all the rest of it, we are (an active contributor ?) part of this stream. Your physical organism may end but you (subconsciously?) are while living, ( an impersonation of?) that stream itself. That Stream is slow at times, fast at others, deep and shallow, narrowed by the 'banks' and breaking through the narrowness into a vast volume of water - as long as you are of that stream there is no (authentic inner ?) freedom. There is no freedom from (the ongoing process of thought created?) 'time', from the ( residual) confusion and the misery of all the (collective and personal?) accumulated memories and attachments. It is only when there is the ending of (the identification with?) that Stream (of self-interest?), the ending, not 'you' stepping out of it and becoming something else, but the ending of it, only then is there quite a different dimension (inward state of mind ?) . That dimension cannot be measured (described or evaluated?) by words. This (meditation act of?) 'ending' without a motive is the whole significance of 'dying and living'. The roots of Heaven are (to be found ?) in ( inwardly integrating?) 'living' and 'dying'.

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Tue, 04 Aug 2015 #58
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 131 posts in this forum Offline

What does K. mean when he speaks of living with death? I have been experimenting with this. Is he talking about 'negation', realising in the moment that one is thinking about, or feeling something, and when one becomes aware of that, to drop it, let it go, negate it...? And move on to the next thought and IF one becomes aware of that thought, to let it go, let it end, let it die? Is this what you understand him to be pointing at? He summed up his teaching as "an attempt, without effort, to live with death in the timeless silence".

(and to let this 'questioning' go also?)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 04 Aug 2015.

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Wed, 05 Aug 2015 #59
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Very true, Dan, since our sorrow/inner insufficiency/ loneliness/
is perceived as being something that 'we' are experiencing - so the self-centred thought is placing a 'buffer' between its own daily actions and...their unpleasant psycho-effects. Now if both are understood as being part of the same 'temporal thinking' process, the issue is becoming quite different: 'you' simply can't do anything about the inevitable consequences of your own actions and attitudes-

Hi John, it seems to me that the self or whatever name suits is not placing a buffer , but this analyser is the buffer, or it could even be in a proper? sequence of time that the analyser is first then it imagines a buffer not being itself which in fact is itself! like it is sorrow, like it is fear and continuously is unaware of it so it keeps dividing anything it is looking at , including its own desires and so on.So at the end of the day one of the division sees itself as a non division, all can be false in this field, hard to find the way indeed, living sorrow (death,boredom,hurts,desires,fear etc etc) properly does not allow this to happen, or if so then sorrow..( death etc) is not lived, but thought about and this can be known that it is not lived ,as when it is lived there is a different "quality" which is there and not in normal life, a tiny portion of the huge bliss..when it is not lived again back to the pain of a normal life at war with oneself and so with the world and the universe...

amazingly going back to some myths at the very basement of the so called "siecle des lumieres", (century of lights) around 1715, the "parent" of our present disaster which could well destroy humanity, is that Nature,all of it is wrong and that man is going to put order in it through science so analysing...knowledge would save man..from what ??

in fact , for me, it is not anymore about duality only but about "quadrility" or "octolity" or much more than that like a huge net of "thousandslities" of divisions,this process had divided so much that it has no clue about all that.I think that it does what it can by set up, but what it can do has no capacity in mots fields of life apart from cooking today's lunch and weeding the vegetable garden..:-)) not good enough for the self which has become arrogant of itself..bursting with pride even if criminal..(cf la grenouille et le boeuf by J de la Fontaine)

As to the unpleasant psycho effect without living them which denies room to thinking-analysing,that is precisely THE point,they must be as at least a warning.
I say that they did not show themselves for me by analysing-thinking, the analyser never have found one single root of my deepest unbearable problems hidden behind heavy pain; like any psycho blah blah of course it finds many intellectual guesses, in my case none was right , and it keeps that way still, it seems to be so far a constant process; in my own experiment I would have killed myself long ago if I did not find by apparent total luck ( was it luck? I do not know, is there only luck ??) a way to do that as it must be done..on the way to let us say "saved from a no life", there are step which cannot take place if some others are not met before..that is how i see it..I am not saying that to meet sorrow is all what there is in life, but for people in my hopeless case as I was despite the fact that the immense energy beyond time heavily crossed my own life , the immense suffering which was mine,had only one way to be met and partially solved, partial in the sense that it comes back and must be dealt with.....In fact i mainly am more relate to people totally engulfed in the suffering of a no life,which is kind of a sign that something is pushing one hard to get up, to wake people I meet in real life...this is often where people meet suicide or become soldiers and killers...for me both have the same origin...both are a sign of an analyser who keeps wiling to sustain itself at all cost...including its own killing, rather than accepting to see that it is factually defeated ,smashed...and so facing the unknown..

Actually so I can do something about my own actions or anything but this is not a direct approach,as the direct approach seems to always imply the analyser leadership, even hidden behind a wise man or woman ..again I find the same attitude as with sorrow..(and boredom ,fear, etc) to be what to do, I speak for me, but just to do such thing immediately ..Actually when thinking about it, there are many more foolish men acting as guru than woman :-))..weird !!

Alas when woman touch politic or business or any position of power they do as bad as men ...

K have talked about a sort of positive approach like here

  • Bombay, India 1927

K: Human beings forget the goal to which their life leads; hence there is always confusion. Because of the lack of foresight of the thing they desire, they are confused and they are lost, and it is for this reason that you must establish for yourself whither you are going, what your purpose is in life. And when once you have established this for yourself -not by the authority of another, not by the authority of sacred books, nor by the authority of individuals but by a clear-cut ideal- and have definitely decided to follow it, you will attain liberation. And if you have been able to establish such an ideal, then that ideal will become part of your own life and you will walk towards that goal, all things becoming easy to you.

John: so, back to square one- learning to 'meditate' non-dualistically. and in a way, this is simplifying the whole approach: you either want to do it and therefore can do it don't want to do it and are just playing various 'self'-centred mind-games with yourself and/or with others..

here I do not know, for me it is a matter of the analyser always in the way...

so I bring a k saying on meditation,meditation like heart,love, etc which definitively do not speak much because for me this is far too vague in order to place something define enough behind those words, only a personal feeling ,nothing more.
One thing yet using a lot the word heart,once k gave his definition of this word which expressed that he meant by that word that all the functions of the brain are turned on so not only the analytical process.

  • Meditation is one of the most extraordinary things, and if you do not know what it is you are like the blind man in a world of bright colour, shadows and moving light. It is not an intellectual affair, but when the heart enters into the mind, the mind has quite a different quality: it is really, then, limitless, not only in its capacity to think, to act efficiently, but also in its sense of living in a vast space where you are part of everything. Meditation is the movement of love. It isn't the love of the one or of the many. It is like water that anyone can drink out of any jar, whether golden or earthenware: it is inexhaustible. And a peculiar thing takes place which no drug or self-hypnosis can bring about: it is as though the mind enters into itself, beginning at the surface and penetrating ever more deeply, until depth and height have lost their meaning and every form of measurement ceases. In this state there is complete peace not contentment which has come about through gratification but a peace that has order, beauty and intensity. It can all be destroyed, as you can destroy a flower, and yet because of its very vulnerability it is indestructible. This meditation cannot be learned from another. You must begin without knowing anything about it, and move from innocence to innocence.

The soil in which the meditative mind can begin is the soil of everyday life, the strife, the pain, and the fleeting joy. It must begin there, and bring order, and from there move endlessly. But if you are concerned only with making order, then that very order will bring about its own limitation, and the mind will be its prisoner. In all this movement you must somehow begin from the other end, from the other shore, and not always be concerned with this shore or how to cross the river. You must take a plunge into the water, not knowing how to swim. And the beauty of meditation is that you never know where you are, where you are going, what the end is.

when he says: You must take a plunge into the water, not knowing how to swim. And the beauty of meditation is that you never know where you are, where you are going, what the end is.

again when I replace meditation by living sorrow, and accommodate k's word with my own "sauce" it is what I mean by living sorrow

You must take a plunge into the water of sorrow, not knowing how to swim. And the fact-beauty of it is that you never know where you are, where you are going, what the end is.

he is definitively much better with words than I am...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 05 Aug 2015.

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Wed, 05 Aug 2015 #60
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 190 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What does K. mean when he speaks of living with death? I have been experimenting with this. Is he talking about 'negation', realising in the moment that one is thinking about, or feeling something, and when one becomes aware of that, to drop it, let it go, negate it...? And move on to the next thought and IF one becomes aware of that thought, to let it go, let it end, let it die? Is this what you understand him to be pointing at? He summed up his teaching as "an attempt, without effort, to live with death in the timeless silence".

(and to let this 'questioning' go also?)

Hello the other Dan......

difficult subject that one of the sun I cannot do anything about it, it is an absolute fact and usually we try to escape or whatever with it; yet today Mr Google is dreaming about being entangled and brain connected into a machine-computer and live forever,forever , forever...Good luck into this new insanity Mr Google :-) so with this trans-humanism ,that's how it is, the brain of "which "is left which is a machine ,not knowing it is a machine, wants to become a machine...forever...

Since the birth of my last child, he is now 11 years old,his death or mine so I would not be able to be there for him up to the age when it can fly on his own,had been hitting me very hard quite permanently so basically death was a huge problem which needed to be somehow unknown solved if there is such solving of course !!

and I must say that If previously I had not found the way to deal with sorrow which basically is to do nothing with that, well I possibly would not be here writing today as that is such a tremendous shock to me, me as the analysing process ; as soon as "I" try to interfere with death or anything posing a psychological pain it becomes more and more a huge increasing bunch of well as trying not to analytically interfere is a problem too...well one of those apparent catch 22 is not it?

Death is a dangerous subject to go into I see.

As far as I sense anything about it , what death, as a fact to take place in some unknown future, does to the analytical brain mind is that it is negating one property of the analyser which is that it does not include any end to it wishes, cravings and all that (by set up) so its functioning does not deal with practical problems in terms of them having an end but rather of being well done, properly built if possible, etc,, I have seen that twice very deeply, we may talk about insight here, ...the analyser always thinks in terms of continuity by set up , by programming, the fact of death denies that soon as the analyser project continuity in a field which is not concerned at all with continuity, it creates a warning like some pain ,a warning saying: don't do that!!

Alas the analyser at first or for a whole lifetime do not know that this is warning of wrongness, so it tries to get rid of what it does not even know about..right away it is adding a second problem where there was only willing to act on the unknown ..of the absolute.

then soon after, my last son himself had to deal with death, he would not stand with at least my future death and we both went into that in a weird sort of "shamanistic" way, basically and bottom line that there is nothing to be done with that by all means, he was 8 ish at the time...after something like 2 or 3 hours where he was totally sort of destroyed from the beginning by himself,when we had this weird talk, all of a sudden he saw something for himself about death, and the suffering of it immediately was gone, it did not fade away but just was gone..he was immediately back to a playful state of mind , smiling again s he usually does, this happened twice and second time we went thought the same weird way....and it worked the same....I did not asked him what he saw for himself...that is his secret garden.

It probably-possibly will come back , will he see by himself if I am not there to sort of help, guide into these dark moments ?? will he know what to "not do" with that ? I do not know and that the way it is.

amazingly this last son is so naturally caring for others so young...

So my own experiment with this was involuntary ,very tough time, but basically there is nothing to analytically do with death like with sorrow and so on....

it took me , I think 6 years to get that point in a way which produced relief from this sorrowful stress ....since death is often showing its "nose" (French saying) and like with sorrow, there is a weird way to be with that properly

It is hard to say what k exactly meant, but for sure I , I as the analyser,do not try to follow all my thoughts as I personally would go mad to do such thing..( Of course I tried ;-))! ....yet i think that I the analyser, somehow a bit, get now what he means by living is dying...and that both are linked which is not such a surprise of course.

- krishnamurti..... Freedom From the Known.J. Krishnamurti Freedom from the Known Chapter 9

  • We have separated living from dying, and the interval between the living and the dying is fear. That interval, that time, is created by fear. Living is our daily torture, daily insult, sorrow and confusion, with occasional opening of a window over enchanted seas. That is what we call living, and we are afraid to die, which is to end this misery. We would rather cling to the known than face the unknown - the known being our house, our furniture, our family, our character, our work, our knowledge, our fame, our loneliness, our gods - that little thing that moves around incessantly within itself with its own limited pattern of embittered existence.

  • We think that living is always in the present and that dying is something that awaits us at a distant time. But we have never questioned whether this battle of everyday life is living at all. We want to know the truth about reincarnation, we want proof of the survival of the soul, we listen to the assertion of clairvoyants and to the conclusions of psychical research, but we never ask, never, how to live - to live with delight, with enchantment, with beauty every day. We have accepted life as it is with all its agony and despair and have got used to it, and think of death as some- thing to be carefully avoided. But death is extraordinarily like life when we know how to live. You cannot live without dying. You cannot live if you do not die psychologically every minute. This is not an intellectual paradox. To live completely, wholly, every day as if it were a new loveliness, there must be dying to everything of yesterday, otherwise you live mechanically, and a mechanical mind can never know what love is or what freedom

now it seems to me , quite vaguely but yet quite surely too, so far, that it is more a matter of what is known to "me" and what is unknown as k is mentioning above..death is in the field of what is unknown so the analyser has no say here...we need some other process when it comes to such subject which are in the unknown,especially such big huge subject like death which is basically totally antagonist to the analyser capacities.....

the analyser is clearly of the known,limited to its own knowledge,set up capacities, memories and cravings only etc

If this was not producing any too heavy frustration so mental suffering well I would say : fine by me....

but the matter is that it does produces all those nasty too heavy problems which lead to any violence to oneself and on earth due to a gigantic process of causes and effects chain reactions...

well........that is more than enough i guess....probably too much, but definitively I cannot make it short or I could not write at all..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 05 Aug 2015.

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