Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Pages from the Book of Life


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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #31
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Can the human brain 'live with death' all the time? You understand? I'm going to die - that's certain.

Well I have seen the vital need of that.....months of pain to resist and not understanding what to do with all that it had been..

all resistance is pointless, as it is said in war movies...and so painful...that is indeed one great shock to the analytical system , because its speciality is not the unknown, ..it has the same effect as sorrow as far as I see this..of course refusing death is sorrowful ,because it will never be ....

this is interesting in the sense that when I meet something like sorrow of death seen when forecasting my glorious future , even though I can't do anything about it, I still try to ...

the referee blow his whistle to indicate the fault; the sound of the whistle later on will become so painful that at last we may listen to what it is indicating,..that would be intelligent enough to hear it when it happens....

after a while it is what can happen I say..and the symptom does not become painful but remains a symptom for guidance...

well I am afraid that if this has any truth in it, something would be guiding us..

cheers..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #32
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

I was thinking about death this morning...physical death. I wondered what the fear of that was all about. Death as I usually consider it is the ending of my taking in the sights and sounds of the world around. The ending of all my memories of all my experiences good and bad. But in the wondering about it there were also sounds coming from outside; Birds, rain, house sounds,...there was sound in my head and sound outside my head. The latter, I (my thinking) would register the outside sounds but after the immediate recognition would no longer hear them in their 'fullness' and becoming aware of this, I wondered if all the sounds outside and inside me could all have 'equal weight', not favoring one over the other but moving simply with whatever was happening, flowing along with whatever was taking place. There was a resistance to this: thought it seems does not want to 'flow', but 'flow' and 'conclude', 'flow' and 'conclude' etc. "Static" not "fluid". And it occured to me that it was the 'knower' who was afraid of 'death'. That he would no longer be here to 'experience' and 'name' and 'record' the sights and sounds of the world.... But it struck me that the irony here was that this 'knower', 'experiencer', this 'me' was already DEAD! It was made up of the past, it was the dead past of memories, fear and images... it stands in the doorway to the senses and blocks the real, the present, the always new, fresh, live, contact with the world around. And in this sense, its 'death' would not be a tragedy but a 'blessing'.

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #33
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Well John it seems that you deleted more message...
we are lucky for those reading k that he did not decided to do the same each time;-)

between the reading and an eventual dialogue, there can be some time in order to let the words speak...

I read the explanations for that.....so no need to say again..but it does not speak to me..

Dan ...........

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #34
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Early Writings
WHY DO YOU SERVE?
Ommen, Holland, 1927

So I should like to come back again to what I said at the beginning, to that activity of which the Western world is so full. You can be a great mystic and yet be active emotionally and mentally, though perhaps it is more difficult to be so on the physical plane. You will find perhaps if you go to India that, because of the climate, they are more active emotionally and mentally than physically. Here it is very cold and you have to be active in order to keep alive, but that activity does not mean that you are solving the world's problems, perhaps you are adding to those problems, adding another barrier.

So friends, if you really desire to help, as you must desire, you must not only be active, you must also contemplate, you must seek solitude, you must have dreams. Why is there so much trouble in the world between the Orient and the Occident? It is because in the Orient they think the physical does not exist, the physical is a maya, it passes away and a new life comes into being; whereas here the physical is the only thing of value, so you say: "Let us make merry while this life lasts", and you forget that there is the other side to the picture. So when the two clash -the physical on one side and the emotional and mental on the other- there is always trouble, there is always misunderstanding; but when you can combine the two, when you can make the world perfect in the knowledge of the two, then there is happiness. And those people who have the desire to serve, who have this burning desire to help, must understand who it is that they are helping and why they are helping. To help really and truly and lastingly you must have within you eternal peace, eternal certainty and liberation. Without the vision, without the knowledge of that for which you are working, whatever you do, whether it be mental, emotional, or physical, will have no value. That is why those of you who belong to organisations, who are well-learned, in books, must be careful that your knowledge does not become merely theoretical, without the background of experience and certainty, for without that certainty beware how you help people. If you can allay sorrow, if you can give balm to the aching wounds, then you will not care to what types and to what stages of evolution you may belong. All that you will desire will be to help, because you possess certainty and because you have that knowledge whose function in the world is to give wisdom.

So friends, you are like everyone else in the world though you may call yourselves by different names, for you are still in the valley of sorrow, and you can only attain that clear light of happiness which is within you by your own struggling, by your own authority, not by the authority of another. By your own knowledge, by your own sorrow you can find the way; and when you are certain, when you are positive, when you are sure in your own wisdom, then what you give will be of great help, will be of lasting value, will aid and give happiness to those that have it not.

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 06 Jun 2015.

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #35
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

When I read k intensively, It was between 18 and kind of 30, I am now 60, I really read everything I could find....the early writings were non existent before the internet, at least i did not come across them..but the two biography were saying a lot about this very "interesting " man..

for the fun, yet being in fact very serious I say that is is a very ordinary man as life was meant to be for us,and we are all exceptional......in THE wrong way...

no need to cry as it won't help, it never helps to self pity oneself, it destroys....

k:
By your own knowledge, by your own sorrow you can find the way; and when you are certain, when you are positive, when you are sure in your own wisdom, then what you give will be of great help, will be of lasting value, will aid and give happiness to those that have it not.

so from very early , sorrow was there in k words...he was 32

that was after some "mystical" experiences

-

[Life-altering experiences

In 1922, Krishnamurti and Nitya travelled from Sydney to California. In California they stayed at a cottage in the Ojai Valley. It was thought that the area's climate would be beneficial to Nitya, who had been diagnosed with tuberculosis. Nitya's failing health became a concern for Krishnamurti. At Ojai, they met Rosalind Williams, a young American who became close to them both, and who was later to play a significant role in Krishnamurti's life. For the first time, the brothers were without immediate supervision by their Theosophical Society minders. They found the Valley to be very agreeable. Eventually a trust, formed by supporters, bought a cottage and surrounding property there for them. This became Krishnamurti's official residence.

According to witnesses, it started on 17 August 1922, when Krishnamurti complained of a sharp pain at the nape of his neck. Over the next two days the symptoms worsened, with increasing pain and sensitivity, loss of appetite, and occasional delirious ramblings. He seemed to lapse into unconsciousness, but later recounted that he was very much aware of his surroundings, and that while in that state he had an experience of "mystical union". The following day, the symptoms and the experience intensified, climaxing with a sense of "immense peace". Following, and apparently related to, these events, the condition that came to be known as the process started to affect him, in September and October that year, as a regular, almost nightly occurrence. Later the process resumed intermittently, with varying degrees of pain, physical discomfort and sensitivity, occasionally a lapse into a childlike state, and sometimes an apparent fading out of consciousness, explained as either his body giving in to pain or his mind "going off".

These experiences were accompanied, or followed, by what was interchangeably described as, "the benediction," "the immensity," "the sacredness," "the vastness" and, most often, "the otherness" or "the other. It was a state distinct from the process. According to Lutyens, it is evident from his notebook that this experience of otherness was "with him almost continuously" during his life and gave him "a sense of being protected." Krishnamurti describes it in his notebook as typically following an acute experience of the process, for example, on awakening the next day:

etc etc...

some experiences as such seem to happen to some-many? people on this planet, yet apparently not to that ..extend...

Then immediately aware of the state of my mind and of the planet right now...all seems so hopeless....the empire has army practically all over the place now..pretending to be attacked when in fact it is the only one attacking..and creating false attacks against itself

the way we all are mentally is killing again today....and most of the people in the occidental world does not seem to care at all,that is a fact, yet this is changing now bit by bit ;-)),a majority still does not even seem to know that we are doing this, whether directly or indirectly,whether actively or whether passively..

to be aware of that is at first terribly destructive....then one trick is to become blind...

Well.....not a great day..

krishnamurti: It is strange how during one or two interviews that strength, that power filled the room. It seemed to be in one's eyes and breath. It comes into being, suddenly and most unexpectedly, with a force and intensity that is quite overpowering and at other times it's there, quietly and serenely. But it's there, whether one wants it or not. There is no possibility of getting used to it for it has never been nor will it ever be..."( Krishnamurti, J. (1976). Krishnamurti's Notebook, Part 3 Gstaad, Switzerland 13th July to 3rd September 1961. J. Krishnamurti online).

I have known that like some I met; others around me felt it too,especially the children but not only, but unlike k , this was twice...then of course it gives me the constant awareness to miss real life...and this is a fact...

So the presence of the sorrow of such knowledge, is natural...then sorrow becomes THE problem to be solved...

the usual analytical way is wrong, one must then find out something else...

k: By your own knowledge, by your own sorrow you can find the way; and when you are certain, when you are positive, when you are sure in your own wisdom, then what you give will be of great help, will be of lasting value, will aid and give happiness to those that have it not.

A good basement for a not usual journey !!

Dan ...........

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #36
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
I quite agree, Dan, but at least for myself I know that if something is not compelling me to answer here and now, any after-thoughts may be reverberating for a long time and I'll never be sure it's the right answer. So, in my own way I'm answering instantly if I see now a significant answer. Later on the validity of that significance may not be 'actual' anymore- and somehow it becomes 'time-binding' -at least for myself. So, I just prefer to delete such 'personal' answers. However, the 'reader friendly' edited texts are the direct result of an interactive learning experience, or a shared 'guided' meditation, so, more often than not they are there to stay

Well now I get it, it happened to me when writing some sort of book and when re reading I mostly found that things had changed in the meantime or whatever else...
at the end of the day, on the usb k for the book there are now movies or music replacing the 100 pages ish I already wrote...

Dan ...........

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Sat, 06 Jun 2015 #37
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

K: Now, the question really is whether there is an (inner) action which is ( a total) 'non-action'.

Total non-action means no movement in any direction. Non-action goes beyond the 'controller'. With the controller 'threatened' there arises fear: the fear of being 'out of control'. Is this what is meant by the brain operating in a 'safe' mode? With the controlling faction always in charge?
The 'controller' is not capable of total 'non-action'. When there is NO action, the 'controller' is bypassed. But there is fear there. 'Uncharted territory', fear of the unknown. Thought says,"Don't go there, you don't know where it will lead..."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 06 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 09 Jun 2015 #38
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 14 posts in this forum Offline

I really enjoyed reading that, thank you John. One of the bits that stood out was:

John Raica wrote:
the brain has become ( predominantly reactive and/or ?) mechanical. I say: Can that mechanical process stop? That is all. If it cannot be stopped the human brain becomes merely a ('thinking'?) machine, which it is.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2015 #39
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K: What is the momentum behind any desire? Let us begin with that. What is the (nature of the?) energy that makes me desire? All the structure of this movement is based on punishment and reward, to avoid one, to gain the other. Is that the basic drive or energy that is making us do so many things? So is the motive, the drive, the energy derived from these two: to avoid one and gain the other?

John, as far as the functioning of the analyser is revealing itself since I re-started leaving what is behind sorrow alone,what shows itself is that desire is absolutely vital in order to make the all analytical process to simply work..no desire means no analyser means no life as we define it...

based on reward and punishment, that is for me already the 2nd step of desires root function, the root function is for me just to give "motives" to the system to function..then what are those motives is in second..

this basic and simple process, whether incidental, whether a clear will of Mother Nature is not yet a problem as such....

Our analytical process is good enough as a child if and that is a big if, if the children are surrounded by "intelligent " adults..this is not the case..we are practically all nuts at this stage and for a good while now..

we start destroying our kids from very young in fact...to make them as ugly as us..then the parents do not feel alone :-))

Desire is choice,what is choice based on? desires..choice and desires are same movement !! Originally it is a vital and essential function in comparing,calculating,evaluation etc in practical matters, even for simple thing of life like walking, desire-choice is necessary....

Basically we have a complex calculator(thought) which works because it is set up with incentives to do so..nothing extraordinary..

John Raica wrote:
K: Not only at the level of thought. I am hungry, my reward is food. If I do something wrong, my 'reward' is punishment. Reward and punishment. I think that is the basic, ordinary, common drive.

again it is all part of our set-up...
we transpose it as reward..this is more an evaluation yes / no...something must make decision in all practical aspects of life...so in fact we have two answers, yes I think that this is good for me, no I don't think that this is good for me..
what k calls punishment is again an extrapolation from the root, the root is this seems good it should work, this is not good it should not work so is rejected..

John Raica wrote:
K: what is satisfying I call 'reward', that which is not satisfying I call 'punishment'.

I don't as I now see what the function is..it is the vital need in practical matters to make a choice and to evaluate what seems a good idea to do things properly...

there is no reward punishment yet here...for me.

John Raica wrote:
K: It is very simple, isn't it? There is hunger, food is given, and you are (physiologically) satisfied. But the same thing is carried on ( in the field of the psyche ?) and there it is never ending. I seek one satisfaction after another and it is endless. Is it that this drive to be satisfied, is both biological as well as psychological? I am (physiologically) hungry and psychologically I feel lonely. There is this deep feeling of emptiness, there is the feeling of insufficiency. Physiologically, the insufficiency is satisfied very easily. Psychologically, it is never satisfied.

when our mechanical computer started functioning, as it is limited about its incentives-desires, it is a very simple but vital to the all process "adds on" in fact,then the incentives-desire seem to take it all over....the incentive take the control of the all computerised brain...the analytical part I mean..

As a child it still can be OK, as an adult it is in fact "game over"...

the feeling of emptiness that k is mentioning I say is sorrow..

from here two roads, and we at 100% apart from 1 or two exceptions every 2500 years we choose the road to try to keep filling this emptiness felt....desire becomes THE choosy god...the ultimate...the quest for absolute satisfaction has started and will never be a fact......

from here these dreams of progress, and so on now control the life...

If this does not become too painful for some psychological "weak" (sensitive and sensible for me)persons..there is no reason that we change anything about that aspect of our lives, so keep the war going on man !! ...and by the way this is what happens..we do not change, we still believe in the more..this is in fact juts another religion in the sense we define this word...

Yesterday evening it was clear to me that we possibly if not probably are now very seriously regressing, too remote from our original natural state....the machine in me is winning...which is the very principle of the "divider" which is analysing..this creates the illusion of competition which is non existent hiding in fact the root for war and all other goodies..

John Raica wrote:
K: (Re-recap:) My concern is with one's life, actual, daily, fragmentary, stupid life. And I say, Can that be transformed? Not for a greater satisfaction. Can that structure end itself? I say if you are capable of observing without the (control of the?) 'observer', the brain can transform itself. That is 'meditation'. Sir, the essence is the whole. In fragmentation, there is no essence of anything.

vital fragmentation as a tool is a sort of machine, it has the property to analyse what it can perceived, what it analyses is limited to its own capacity of perception...

k says something like there is no goodness in the machine..and the machine seeks for absolute in what it does, this never happens,then it creates sorrow..which has to be lived by leaving it alone....

then insightfully, not at all with the ordinary thinking ,me will be forced by "something " to understand that it is itself which is creating all the mess and pain....such a state of the brain mind is.........so different, it contains so many things, first to come is huge relief from pain....."god" knows where or if it ends.

that is a start...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 11 Jun 2015.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2015 #40
Thumb_2820 Aseem Kumar India 1 post in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When there is NO action, the 'controller' is bypassed.... Total non-action means no movement in any direction.

How does this "bypassing" come about, Dan?

Is it or is it not possible for thought to project/create/induce a state where it is not moving/operating for limited period of time?

The mind can deceive itself and fabricate anything it wishes

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Thu, 11 Jun 2015 #41
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

Why has the brain been 'conditioned' to immediately label a sensation (energy) arising in the body whether 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant'? K. points out that this 'naming ' from recognition of past instances creates an "opposite" and this process is instantaneous...and without this giving a 'name and 'substance' to these sensations that they would naturally "wither" and subside? What do you all think is the reason for this process and can it end effortlessly?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 11 Jun 2015.

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Thu, 11 Jun 2015 #42
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

as far as the functioning of the analyser is revealing itself since I re-started leaving what is behind sorrow alone,what shows itself is that desire is absolutely vital in order to make the all analytical process to simply work..no desire means no analyser means no life as we define it...

So, Dan, the 'seed of truth' is working, is alive. Therefore there is some actual hope for the future of human consciousness, inspite 'all the jazz' that's going on presently. The major lesson I'm drawing from this is that there has to be an 'interactive relationship' between our existing consciousness (the 'what is') and a 'spirit' or 'essence' of truth, and this occurs in 'listening'.

yes this is so.
I am not able to describe how this works when it works,what I know is that something is kind of turning itself on and does some job it is probably set up for, it concerns finding some root unsolved problems and much more like out of the blue sort of revelation, with no proof of anything yet the logic of it is often understood and much more; this is needed because there are tons of mental knots which seem to block the right functioning of let's say the whole brain...so that no energy flows freely, most of this energy left is used to sort of fight ,resist...etc without really knowing what "I" is fighting and resisting ...

each non analytical vision of such knot " unknots" it, so it frees some energy, like the electrify is now circulating more properly more smoothly etc ..

and make the brain mind lighter,less troubled etc... it is functioning more and more as it should I guess..this means that all unsolved problems may be really creating some sort of sorrow ...they have so to be exposed to be solved,then they are gone...with or without understanding..sometimes you know that a problem is solved apparently with no conscious understanding of it ?? but is it without understanding at all? I don't think so... more often a hidden problem is solved so gone, but through understanding ,so seeing it first ..the seeing is not an analytical seeing of course..

hope there is ,always had been I guess.there is work to do on a limited area first....first will eventually be tackled what is wrong so perceived as a pain...

As long as there is no feeling of some sort of pain, the analyser will not change its path..yet so many are so caught in it,they still do not change because they have no clue about what to do or not with that...then it is about ignorance..we are really ignorant of what we are, how we function etc etc

so I go along with your lesson: The major lesson I'm drawing from this is that there has to be an 'interactive relationship' between our existing consciousness (the 'what is') and a 'spirit' or 'essence' of truth, and this occurs in 'listening'.

I must say that when such process is set off, sort of set off by itself, it seems that the relation you mention works by itself...so the effort, the work, the analytical will, has a part to play here in succeeding to freeze its self trust under some kind of pressure first, like the one of what is perceive as painful....
the analyser becomes more pertinent in its own analytical fields , it starts realising that it is a source of many pains....etc etc

John Raica wrote:
And bottom line, for the essential needs of the brain its internal 'psycho-safety' is all that finally matters- you have perhaps noticed that many of those who are 'safe' economically are still very worried about a lot of 'tiny' things- what if I die, what if I'll lose those I love etc

yes I have noticed, for myself included as I had times where I economically felt safe....

John Raica wrote:
So the notoriously banalised term 'thought' so often used by Mr K ( but still not overlooked) is, as you say a sophisticated mental mechanism basically meant to take charge of the long term and short term internal security of the brain.

Yes ,this is what I mean.....what happens to me is the involuntary revealing by visions,flashes , of thought( as a sophisticated mental mechanism) a revealing as "something x " wishes ...I don't know how this happens...but I know that it is related with a capacity for "me" to stay with sorrow first...then it may evolve somehow unknown is what I perceive ..so the analyser is a vital key here..

it is itself,without knowing it at first, who is going to allow some weird impossible events to take place by sort of freezing itself....

this what is sorrow as a catalyst. Any goal in mind will ruin it, or rather prevent it to happen....

how to stop having any goal then is a good question....back to my "pet subject"..

John Raica wrote:
Now to reverse the process( that you describe before that sentence) is practically impossible as long as the brain is not given another 'safety' device..

yes ,"something" else comes into the situation and acts in its own ways but is not the analyser..the analyser only, cannot change anything radically, it is stuck by set up in its own set up and choices.

John Raica wrote:
. and in these teachings that is an 'integrated' attention. From where the 'practical' aspect of meditation, to allow the creation of this 'thought-free' inner space- which after all...is creating the right conditions for attention

indeed, integrated is really the right word here, this integrated attention is there for all but usually turned off.

Then this word of meditation starts having sense now...it is that the word needs so many development and explanation etc etc to really say ..

attention being functioning as it wishes or can or must is independent of the analyser : fact !! ...so far I see that this "attention process" is working on its own "style" ...this is what I factually see..

and if true ,factual ,the implications of this are really extra ordinary, beyond the ordinary ..

I stop for now, yet this is so deeply interesting but the energy to keep writing on a keyboard is gone...I am going to change the word keyboard for keybored ..

cheers..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 11 Jun 2015.

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Fri, 12 Jun 2015 #43
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

attention being functioning as it wishes or can or must is independent of the analyser : fact !! ...so far I see that this "attention process" is working on its own "style" ...this is what I factually see..

Right, Dan, and creating this free inner space for an integrated attention to 'flower' would perhaps be the first step (and also the last one ?) in meditation since we're exiting the temporal dimension of thought..

Indeed John....I totally agree with that..It just needed time to get your words...and since we started those dialogues, some discoveries have been there too..helping ...

My impression from there is that what is going to happen then ,if such inner space is now a fact for oneself,(whatever its depth is) is unpredictable as to the eventual content which will be perceived etc

It is living the memory for a space where memory is not welcome so needed...
Both are vital...

this is why so far, most of what I mention here is linked to sorrow because I sense that there is some sort of quite common track for all here, the way to go into that, to deal with etc etc I think we have to go into that...and I find that it is not properly said anywhere ,apart here and there in k's words, but not as a main recurrent topic, k often behaving as if people got the right thing about sorrow when it was obviously not the case; I know that Buddha talk a great deal about that, but it is not from the horse mouth that we can read so I decided to leave it..after all we are living a time where some sort of "guy" on the same wavelength was living..and we got his exact words as well as two biography, both deeply interesting I think.

Then after it seems really wide open and totally unpredictable it is entering into the unknown, sounds fancy does not it ?? :-)) .....

I just say, as much as it can be ,of course my own experimentation , I come from really deep hell to something else...well between us , I see that as something which was there for me to go through....I reached many limits.....not that I wanted of course...

amazingly I got that part right about sorrow from very young, then I really lost it, so of course I totally lost myself..like I lost a talent I had with pendulum, where I was able to find which organ would be damaged or having trouble , this had been proven many times by the concerned people having scanners, X-rays or that kind of test, showing that "I" was right...of course it was not "I" who does such thing...I was able to sort of not think then this would happened....this is gone some 40 years ago,when they forced me to join the army which I refused so I was busy somewhere else in order to found ways to be sacked which I did.. ..never tried since..then married ,children , etc the usual...bit by bit I drowned into a common life...that was a personal disaster and suffering, knowing about what I was missing because of those weird moment, deeply knowing that it is not possible to willingly have them...

not to forget that the whole world of man is really sick....a cure is needed before anything else...back to the root..

in the "yeah let's all go to war it is so nice" star wars saga, the war is over as almost everyone is now dead or injured and the last episode is : the journey within !!!

I feel a big huge war totally avoidable, but not a big huge sort of crisis...we are far too wrong..personally so globally

you know I may be totally foolish-wrong and i exactly mean that as I really see that possibility, well I fooled myself so much that is why, but it seems that I had some "work" to do in the matter of clarifying our relation with that phenomenon which sorrow is, in order to understand and clarify that it is here as a help, when we take it as a curse and when we refuse then it is so destructive....one commit a suicide ,even a slow one , and the planet is insane.... what can be changed right now is my perception so relation with others..so with .."me"..
when me is hurt, it hurts others as the most stupid way of escaping and revenge ..when the hurt is cured through vision, insights , understanding, then I am relieved from that and really want to naturally cooperate, because there is some goodness in it..

I think we simply have no choice, never had....it is sorrow, and living it properly..

when someone is killing, stealing, destructing,torturing and all of it like praying,believing in some gods, and trying to do good which in fact indirectly helps to sustain a pervert system so pervert people , then running away from sorrow is somewhere very close to the root problem..it is not the root problem but such a key..

If this is wrong, then I should stop writing about it,and keep that to me ...so far I see it as "bloody" right,it is not enough but right.. sometimes it is vital to know, to be sure for oneself..k said something about that too...of course ;-)

not too sure about this post, I leave it for a while and may delete it..

Dan ...........

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Sat, 13 Jun 2015 #44
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

it seems that I had some "work" to do in the matter of clarifying our relation with that phenomenon which sorrow is, in order to understand and clarify that it is here as a help, when we take it as a curse and when we refuse then it is so destructive.

Indeed, Dan, this 'global heritage' of sorrow means inwardly living in the darkness of self-isolation.

Yes John, but I'd rather say this, it is the running away from sorrow, which never takes place in fact, which is the darkness in this case..

As I get much more how you use some words now, I can say that sorrow for me is embedded in the analytical process....for me on purpose, meaning that it has a function..if not that means that all is random, le hasard, ....I leave it in the dust bin , for me I know that there is not such thing...no proof..

The implication here is huge if not more than huge..and at the same time it is so simple..

As a child you see that sorrow is already there,embedded, this sort of sorrow of crying when 5 Min old is a sort of language.. then as an adult I keep moaning that way...as helpless as a new born baby !!! so much for "intelligence" ;-))

I have to bring my last one to school and I can observe children often as well as when they come to my house, and as I am much aware of it, I see that sorrow already is taking off in the youngest somehow in various forms, I do not mention of course, yet most still have the equivalent and more of a good sort of energy to counterbalance sorrow....later on this good energy may not play its protective role any more...then you know yourself..we become so called adults....etc etc

John Raica wrote:
Perhaps that our ancestors did not really have a choice, fighting everyday for survival and a miserable welfare.

I do not buy any more the false history taught to us...about many aspects, like they were all fighting all the time, miserable etc etc....darwin was just an agent of the empire, his mission was to find anything to justify the stealing ,the killing and the ruthlessness of the soldiers and leaders...as it is today...like we are told that there is expansion, for me there is no expansion but movement, there is no evolution kind from the worse towards the best...all this "stupidities" for me came with the self called "siecle des lumieres", age of enlightenment which started around 1715 in Europe ..before that all was dark and from that moment we were meant to go towards enlightenment, the new religion,science took it over then....we see how ridiculously fake and lies that was today...OK we have machines...and so what ??

I am actually reading a book about facts of the middle ages..most of hat we believe we know about that time is just distorted and-or fake as well, about the inquisition as well..which existed but not like Hollywood sees it of course, about food, women ,work, collective life etc etc etc not saying that was paradise which anyway is an absurd word and idea....the actual movement on our planet at the practical level started so in Europe back to 1715 ish....and will finish soon ,one way or the other..

the conditioning so the lie is so heavy is not it ??

John Raica wrote:
But presently in many parts of the civilised world we do have this choice- to accept living with it or going beyond it...and yet very few people seem to really care about this new opportunity. Well, that's the sad existential aspect of sorrow and all our 'living cultures' actually missed this point, to the extent that the modern 'cultivated' mind got saturated with trivial information and practical knowledge to the extent of becoming 'self-sufficient'.

yet some have lots of things, I do not see that here....because the outer conditions are not what matters most for me, (well if you have no food at all of course, if every morning you get some bomb on your head of course etc etc but this is not normal life, this is an unnatural creation by some to attempt to control the planet) outer conditions do totally matters when totally lost in one's so called life so within the analytical trap only!! ....actually mentally I think people have never been so utterly frightened,frustrated and so on, even though some have plenty....because all this is caught in the wrong direction..all the smile and laugh I see round me are so heavy,apart from exceptions as usual of course...

few people care, yes....and I really find that strange this no interest at all in ones life..you see for me we are not even selfish at all..we are "runnish" like running away..from ....what we are.

the analytical was well built, for me it has to be a fact, as if it is not it is already over for us.....the something goes wrong..

As you say we are full of practical informations and do that all day long and probably all night too, so only the analyser functions....this is something the leaders know like they know that they have to actually cooperate too so that at the top there is no "competition" like for us, yet of course there is too but to a lesser extend etc, all this to keep people busy that way as it gives the self proclaimed leaders the opportunity to lead the frightened flock..remember the working camp in Germany : work gives you freedom...

this is funny, as in fact it is the shepherd who needs the flock of sheep...this is true for the real sheep to, they do not need any shepherd at all..

John Raica wrote:
So, yes an awakening to this deep inner sorrow of our isolation, loneliness is an unavoidable step, but yet...there is the other part of the job, to 'end' it. In fact the Buddhist philosophy is supposed to lead to this too, except that, for various reasons...they don't really seem to be doing it: when you're trying to organise it as a religion, you're creating a lot of other problems which eventually are defeating the original purpose..

totally agreed here John...
I am consciously here and on some few websites trying to bring the "idea" that the suffering of sorrow is possibly (for my case it was and still is) part of a natural process which could well be the only help to start travelling in another direction..then whatever happens will.....happen...

thanks.

Dan ...........

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Sun, 14 Jun 2015 #45
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Perhaps when we are losing our job, house or someone who was very dear the actual shock is inevitable, but even then it is not part of the 'popular' culture to tackle the inner fact of sorrow itself, but rather to look for a new job, a new house to move in, a new relationship. The direct tackling of 'sorrow' is by no means the 'obvious' alternative. Anyway...good luck with that, since sooner or later we all have to meet it !

yes this is right...

I take the good luck, thanks for it of course...

The all thing about sorrow, is that it is negated, unknown, refused, covered up...and the actual entire situation of the planet is the result of that..I know that apparently I am wasting my time when going into such unknown, refused ,negated subject....not only wasting, apparently, but I am aware of the refusal because of fear to go into from others and I understand, I have been and goes fro time to time on the other side using the door where sorrow is written in blood letters and just try to say... ..not talking about this thread here, but in "real" life,as much as it is real..thanks for the dialogues by the way..

People do not generally have even the capacity to look at real fact-things about economy, politic, war etc , so how can they even think about a journey with themselves even for a day....here where I live, one famous wed site for cheaper travels always mentions : fantastic offer.. escape for two etc.

Then OK, leave all normal people alone, yet I am friendly of course...but meet the abnormal , the pariah etc, this is what I did most of the time .

I met many more interesting person in the 3 months spent in the psychiatry unit of the army before they sacked me than into all my life...now a question , why is it so ?
i know why but I leave it..Anyway the planet is full of good people of course..

Well, such a good weird man like k, to be honest had no global influence at all on the direction of this planet, and he knew it, his "dream" as a young one to free man did not work...it is hopeless so far...and getting worse...we do not get at all the mental perversion of man...ours included..

hopelessness is what is..let's live it...why would one do such thing, when sorrow is refused,negated etc etc

the active principle of sorrow is to force the analyser to shut up, to freeze itself, to be defeated, to be tamed by a much more powerful energy than itself..for a second first you stop duality to enter in unity by living me in sorrow ,is sorrow....in one second it can happen more than in a lifetime of 100 years..

it is a teacher, a guide, a helper......

oh no, here he goes again...;-)

often I say to myself stop writing, what is the point....I have plenty occupation between veg garden, cycling ,children ,painting etc etc here so this time would be needed,especially since I decided to go slowly..

It seems that I must keep saying..my experience....about sorrow and a bit more, but not really what happens after, because to live sorrow implies to seek for nothing at all..

so the apparent neurosis of mine on one topic...may be it is a real one ...

My actual job is to do that..

thanks for the dialogues here.

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 15 Jun 2015.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2015 #46
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

And Dan:

Thanks for your posts. I always find them interesting as I'm sure others do.

Dan

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 15 Jun 2015.

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Mon, 15 Jun 2015 #47
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thanks for your posts. I always find them interesting as I'm sure others do.

Well I appreciate , the point to write here is to try to say to others a quite precise experiment reproducing itself differently each time but on the same wavelength, so then it is fine...I was thinking about leaving soon, so far each time this idea came to me something, like here your words, happens, so I keep on writing...

I use that post to say that behind the word sorrow I put this: frustration, discontentment, mental suffering, boredom, sadness, depression, meaningless life, fear, anxiety, dissatisfaction, etc...so it is quite a wide spectrum...
what a job for a single word...
the word dukkha in the past times of the Buddha would have such job...but this is an old word,which is more than fine, but now the meaning is gone ...

All those words to signify that whatever I-we are up to, it is never good enough,as long as it is in the field of the analyser...

when the otherness is there ,there is none of that is what I know..such life was free of sorrow , fear, etc..and meaningful..

sorrow says: I am here to help, please leave me alone, do not touch me...etc

and I say yes that is precisely the point...and for me it is not coincidence.

Here I find too a remarkable possible more than a coincidence, that it works like physical pain up to a point...this point being : I do not know if physical pain is a catalyst too,as it is obviously a symptom...so when I am in some physical pain, I recently had gall stone so a heavy pain for 8 hours ish I tried to be aware of that..I did come to any obvious observation yet..I must precise that I am not at all a masochist :-))

the thing is that pain whether mental or physical could use the same "program", the same stream...this is more playing with logic for the moment and may be just wrong..

thanks..the other dan..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 15 Jun 2015 #48
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline


Krishnamurti: What ( most organised?) religions have taught is to 'cut it off' with the intellect. What tortures the 'saints' went through, the burning, the mutilating. That is the traditional (linear?) way. So, I see the central factor that when one thing becomes all- important, then I do not see the whole of life. Why is there this constant pursuit of ( safety and/or ) pleasure? Why has man pursued 'pleasure' at any cost?

:
A: Biological needs are so deeply ingrained in us.

Krishnamurti: There is nothing wrong in that - we need good, clean food and a 'clean floor' to sleep on, what is wrong? But see what happens - I ( think that I?) must have it tomorrow. That means today's biological needs have been made( translated?) into tomorrow's pleasure; which is, thought (the 'thinking' brain?) has taken over. So 'thinking' is the factor one has to understand, not pleasure.

Dan: that is at this stage so "bloody" important if not vital...thought must be understood says k...let let me be totally personal again here but 6 years ago when I started writing here, it was just after having found a way to deal , so doing nothing ,with sorrow; I had not yet any understanding of thought...and this subject came by itself ,revealing itself, leaving sorrow alone brought that...meaning ,that is totally in the deep nature of "things" ...and yes it starts to be some sort of liberating from thought factor that to see its functioning....by no means this understanding is analytical..

>A: We have come to see that ( our basic needs for safety and?) pleasure are transferred in thought.

Krishnamurti: Now you have got it. So, before you do anything about pleasure, understand thinking. Before you strengthen pleasure, before you nourish it, first find out what is 'thinking'

John Raica wrote:
A: The movement of thought as ( giving continuity to?) pleasure has to be understood.

Krishnamurti: So, it is thought itself which sustains this. What shall I do with thinking? How do I stop thinking about sex or food, how?

A: We started with the fragmentation of energy. It is it this point that it becomes 'fragmented' (time-bound?) .

Krishnamurti: Thought in essence 'is' the maker of fragments. Tradition has always talked of suppressing thought. 'act' and 'forget it' completely and do not carry it over.

Dan: as thought fragments mentally to analyse, no fragmentation = no analysing, it keeps on fragments anything..like some atoms...thought is really just a practical sophisticated hammer or whatever tool you wish it to be as an image, to make it work it has its own drives embedded within its program itself..sorrow for me is embedded too in its function...its function was to be a safeguard, here it hurts = not good, here it does not hurt = good..then the second function of it is to act as "ze inspecteur Clouzeau", who is a tool to find out and expose the root of the problem so solving it..it is another program who does that.. and apparently so much more than that...
My feeling here that the analyser is so hopeless with all that...this program is not capable to give us a "good" life..machines it can but machines and good life have no links..

here what I find vital is not to put the cart before the horse..there are sequences in such happening....like childhood, first tiny problems and sadness, first fears..then already here the awakened adult could go into fear and all that in moment of crisis when a child would be willing to eventually listen and see for himself,this can be "done" with a child from very young, but the adult usually have no clue about all that at all......but this 1st vital step is totally missed so the worse will have to come into being now, and fear which is running away brings now pain, a step which again is missed: "be a man my son", fight it and all that stupid nonsense etc etc and all those BS are told to the poor lad....then of course he is getting worse again...then , at work ,the rat race is the fact....etc etc etc so now we have the ruthless people and the destroyed people...analysing has kept dividing again ..the ruthless people are totally hopeless ,they will have to be stopped by unified hopeless people...that is the step we are facing in the outer and more now, the main job of the ruthless being to prevent the unification of the hopeless people,slowly but surely awakening to themselves..

nevertheless the analyser is vital...no thought no physical life at all, so it is part of a whole process ,

It seems that we are so caught in fear,fear meaning running away as no running away = no fear, , a fear which is mostly unconscious but superficial too of course....

to stop the running away seems a valid point then..this running away being one "item" split in two by thought in mental fields ,and of those two one is trying to escape from the other when in mental fields it is an item ,a unity....basically I am up to do something which will never be attained...

each one of us do that in isolation from everything...what a disaster.

Let's fix that :-) that is our main job....you know when people cooperate an share, to provide all vital needs and much more than that is very simple...

do we want that? if not there is no point to even attempt to change anything, what will prevail for the next 2500 years will be the same as what did for the 2500 last ones...

we can stay slaves and master...that is a choice too..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #49
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

thought is really just a practical sophisticated hammer or whatever tool you wish it to be as an image, to make it work it has its own drives embedded within its program itself..sorrow for me is embedded too in its function...its function was to be a safeguard, here it hurts

Hi, Dan, definitely thought is a 'survival' tool or a survival based 'active software'- slowly developed by our ancestors all the way back to the great apes.

Well, it started long before, billions of years before so possibly from the very start...if there was an intention behind all what is, ....if there was no intention at all, then the state of our planet is perfectly logical..

k suggested that the Ground of all things, the Root beyond time,
has no motives.....well I entirely doubt that, no vision here at all, just some logic used to its extreme "yes/no-I don't know" type of analysing, ..

yes I know there are many forms of logic, and what seems logic may be totally false..bottom line here is that I discard the great apes and all that..darwin was just working for the empire which needed excuses of any kind to self forgive itself about its ruthlessness,destructions,stealing and crimes, still the same today..the great ape is definitively guilty, for me this does not make sense at all...now this is out of my chest...good for me ;-) there would be more to go into , but that is enough .

John Raica wrote:
as a side-effect it certainly does generate a lot of disturbances, pain and sorrow both in our outer and inner environment.

here again using some logic + some deep feeling, a mixture of both , i say that or it generates disturbances incidentally, for no reasons, or because its functioning is very poor like it could have produced no disturbances at all so no suffering so no sorrow...bad luck then

or this is under control and a necessity or a will of some sort..

which one is it ?

If all this is incidental, then bad luck for us...what is the point to even go into that then, better go into a life of escapism, which is exactly what we are up to...and go along with wealth-poverty,slave-master and democratic bombing for some , depending on where one is born..such world would entirely personify hell....so hell is a fact if it is so..but heaven is the a myth..the Babylonian worshippers are then totally right..life is a fight...born to fight and win...

If all this is not incidental, which is what I have been showed somehow I don't even know how, then it is a different matter...

the bliss which was there says: the last option is the one....because, out of many more "reasons", there is no hell, fear,suffering etc etc in that Original bliss....

Then what ?

I must bring here another vision, yet I still do not know if it was a vision or a reading of ancient Hindu text or both: the "Origin" could not make a perfect human being automatically connected from birth with the bliss of the Origin....there is a matter of impossible interaction at some level I don't understand between the Origin and matter in the case of the brain of human beings...so we start with the analytical tool,a mechanical process from before birth, which develops itself up to be a physical finish product ready for all survival tasks....war has not started yet.

I have seen or read or both, that there is a level of incompatibility between the analytical machine(thought) and the Origin beyond time because of the mechanical nature of the analytical program created by the Origin..matter is mechanical ,the Origin is not ...our mechanical program so the analyser has its own sort of "independence" as a program, it can sustain itself somehow up to some limits as being independent from the Origin....

the analyser does not contain the "content" of the Origin....

for some obscure reasons, it is the analyser which MUST renounce , at some stage in life, to its total leadership on the brain...

on earth we are the only species?? with such possibility to go beyond the mechanical brain, which we are not doing..the mechanical brain of other animals is under the Origin responsibility, it is not our duty to interfere the way we do with that,like in my view it is not our duty to interfere with genetic, atom splitting and so on like any genetically modified organism, for the simple reason that so far we have not a single clue of what we are globally doing so how we are affecting the whole harmonious order of the Universe....

Anyway back to our main subject...

There is an impossibility to produce, even for the Origin beyond time , a perfect finish human product with the brain entirely turned on so with its "divine" program turned on, so with the analytical program and the other one both functioning from scratch ...

the mechanical nature of thought is THE cause of that...a machine has no global intelligence, fact.

From scratch we are equipped with this other program...and it is the analyser which is responsible for this other program to turn itself on..being mechanical the analyser will keep functioning with no end ,apart from its death..

This is where the pain of the analytical life needs to exist...it is this element which is given to us as a tool, so it is precious indeed, a tool which is going to force the analyser ,under the pressure of what it is calling sorrow, suffering etc ,going to force it under some circumstances to renounce itself without even knowing it to its dictatorial leadership,because such mechanical life contains no life but survival skills only...

at some stage "I", can be young enough, will be too fed up with its own life of desires and rewards in never ending dissatisfaction etc and will voluntarily shut itself up even just for a few seconds at first, so it will stop searching, realised how defeated it is ,how the pain is unbearable etc, and this as I see it as too the property to freeze what is unconscious for the superficial analyser we are, so that for a second there is a "window" for launching the other process which seems to do that by itself......

then our all brain starts functioning gradually in what I know...what happens there is not predictable is what I know so far....

now this other process as far as I know has many capacities...I do not know how all that functions in depth at all , as the analyser is not responsible for that..
I know that it can find the roots of unsolved problems, so solve them, there is the presence of an unusual energy which has some goodness in it..and much more...
I think that this was the trigger reason for the kthing and more..and god knows what else..

it contains a receiver-transmitter with ..........?

etc etc...

Dan ...........

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #50
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

k suggested that the Ground of all things, the Root beyond time,
has no motives....

I would rather 'read it' as The Ground of Creation has no need for motives since...it just creates. Whatever the universal intelligence behind creating a flower, a bug or anything alive has a loving and creative motivation..

well indeed, I have nothing against that at all John..

John Raica wrote:
So I believe there was some 'psychological' misreading from our part: in order to allow Creation to do its fundamental work we should not interfere (in our meditations, I guess ?) by superimposing our own 'motives' all generated by our 'billion year' (in your assessment ?) of survival oriented thinking...

possibly yes...the billions of years being from the emergence of matter from an unknown source necessarily beyond time at the very start of matter.....like in any discipline if it was possible to really remove one discovery along a journey about any knowledge, all the knowledge after this removal would not exist...so all is included in any result, all the steps are included ...somehow.

same with any insight giving birth to a new situation...the new situation somehow integrates all what was before...this is my understanding..

John Raica wrote:
Now I was thinking that since we're on an universally open minded ( ?) site like this , we might as well include brief excerpts from other similar 'first degree ' sources. So if any of our fine participants will eventually find something worth sharing along this line, do please feel free to post them, be it only as 'flash' posts for a day or two. It may help us and other fellow truth seekers to see everything anew from a different angle or perspective.

Absolutely, I am curious of that..the times are not any more to be shy about telling our own real stories ...

facing a dead end, better say it all :-)

Dan ...........

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #51
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

The birds are so 'predictable', they awaken each morning early with seemingly the same 'enthusiasm', the same bursting energy, that flows out in their familiar, 'own', sounds (songs), they search for food endlessly and then they sleep or they are quiet. Their squabbles with one another are short and harmless...but who of us would trade our lives for that kind of 'simplicity'? That kind of 'order'? Comparitively to my mind, we are so 'different', different from all of nature. Where the maps have all been laid out long ago and here we are in this strange world, and unlike the other animals, seemingly we are alone even when we surround ourselves with others and with, money , things and religious beliefs and 'gurus'but always 'feel' that something is missing. Or do we?, do some find a satisfaction, that takes them 'through'? K. has laid the 'root' of our 'problem', in his eyes, as "self-centeredness", The 'center' of a "circle of darkness" that is my 'individual' self. That feeling of 'me'. I wonder if the birds and animals have such a notion; they don't seem to, though they have their 'territoriality', and their families and little 'tribes' but probably not the 'me and mine' against the world attitude. K.s image of this 'self' or 'selves' confined in a mental 'prison', dissatisfied, confused, seeking some sort of permanent 'happiness', security, not being able to 'break out' because he doesn't realise that the 'prison' is of his own making. It's a powerful, troubling image, but is it true? And as more people come into the world and resources diminish and no means of equitably distributing those resources is possible because of the results of this 'self-centeredness'(?) which breeds greed, corruption,fear,the situation gets more and more ugly, more painful for so many. So, if this is the case, can 'Humanity' (I) move out of, away from this as K. called it: the "stream of self-centeredness"? And is that really the root of the problem or is this just the way it's supposed, destined, fated, to go?

At this point, I think not.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 16 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #52
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Is it possible to move out of the stream of self-centeredness?

Just what is this "self" that we see as the center, the problem? The "self" is thought -- the thinker. The "self" is a psychological construction by the physical brain, and not one thing more.

There is no "getting rid of" thinking and thought. Freedom is brought about through awareness, the continual awareness of what thinking is and what thinking does. With this awareness comes abandonment, which is choiceless, effortless, and so without conflict.

max

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #53
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Is it possible to move out of the stream of self-centeredness?

Just what is this "self" that we see as the center, the problem? The "self" is thought -- the thinker. The "self" is a psychological construction by the physical brain, and not one thing more.

There is no "getting rid of" thinking and thought. Freedom is brought about through awareness, the continual awareness of what thinking is and what thinking does. With this awareness comes abandonment, which is choiceless, effortless, and so without conflict.

The way I see it Max and it could be wrong, is that everything you write and everything I write is written by the 'self': myself and yourself. You speak about it as if it wasn't you, that you have set it aside somehow. I can't see it that way. You may call thought, the 'self' (yourself) unnecessary, dangerous, and side with "awareness" but that to me is just another manifestation of the 'self' looking for an answer. That's how I see it. I hope your freedom is real, and if it is, it does mean that there is the possibility to go beyond...

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #54
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The way I see it . . . is that everything you write and everything I write is written by the 'self': myself and yourself.

If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

To be aware of something, anything, requires contact, which is unity. But awareness also infers separation -- that of which there is an awareness. Awareness, in its nature, is both unity and abandonment, which is flow and movement.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Tue, 16 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 16 Jun 2015 #55
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 126 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

That sounds right...it's the 'truly realized' part that seems, for me, to be the difficulty.

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #56
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
I would just quote one such 'source' who said 'It doesn't matter by what name you call us...since we have no name' ( See the often used K statement 'Intelligence is not 'mine' or 'yours')

Well good example, I actually have such "feeling " for a very long time...we may develop all those side tracks too....

I am going to read the last excerpt ..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #57
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

max greene wrote:

If this is truly realized, and if it is realized that all that is done is done by the self, in the name of the self, and that there is no possible escape from the self, then isn't this state of realization -- awareness -- actually freedom from the self?

That sounds right...it's the 'truly realized' part that seems, for me, to be the difficulty.

max greene wrote:
The difficulty for all of us.

hello Max and the other Dan....

without the so called self producing something very painful, unknown, perceived as a suffering so immediately rejected mentally yet this does not work at all, , without that I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..as for me this is what it is about....I have nothing as such against intellectual ideals but so far in my life, this brought nothing in goodness at all, never but cruel delusions and sorrows ...when something else did brought goodness..

so far I only came across experiment wise, since very young, about what is behind pain as a symptom and a catalyst to leave free in order to force the analyser to totally distrust itself WITHOUT ANY MOTIVE BEHIND, so that includes what is unconscious.The "no motive behind" is vital I explain why for me it is so, down below..

This "doing" , this defeat, implies that the usual analytical bla bla bla goes on and that for once "something " can hear it and not listen to this BS...this is one talent of sorrow as a catalyst to be able to force the analyser to sort of freeze its dictatorship, even for a second, because for a second it will be living sorrow, which is its true mental state...it is like a switch-on button that his living sorrow is, because for such "time", the analyser is not the leader of the brain....

in such moment, the analyser still is there active as usual and somehow sorrow as a catalyst plays its part in creating "something X" which allows anyone in such state to not listen to the usual analytical bla bla bla .....sorrow is then lived, it can be so ONLY if there is no desire to go beyond and even to solve it.....this includes again the unconscious..

I know that for me because since I have seen for myself the depth and strength of this unconscious, it is unconscious for the superficial analyser , I know that in most cases this unconscious had been hiding the real roots of my own deep deep pain of sorrow, the roots showed themselves by leaving sorrow alone, me is defeated...so to actually live sorrow, if it is a real doing with no intention but just somehow to leave it alone, is a "realising" factor...something else not there before ,comes into being and start functioning...the analysing system can negate itself when in pain....

If there is another way or other ways I really have nothing against that at all...but it is then possible too that there is nothing else at all to start with..but sorrow...this goes along with k words actually..it seemed quite "easy" for him..

this is what I know for me.....

but the subject is huge...here I stick to an eventual starting of another process by being defeated by sorrow which if let alone by turning on another process is allowing the discovery of what is that pain of life about....another movement has started then , what may come next is not any more in the analyser capacities anyway...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 17 Jun 2015.

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #58
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 17 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:
. . . I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..

If there is a reason, a motive, then we are back to the struggle of opposites -- there is this, or I am this, and I want this other, or I want to be something else. All movement from motive is reaction. Reaction is not creative change.

max

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Wed, 17 Jun 2015 #59
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

. . . I do not see how it would be possible to realize anything at all but only verbal and intellectual sort of ideal, since the analyser (self or whatever name) must have a dam good reason to stop itself..

If there is a reason, a motive, then we are back to the struggle of opposites -- there is this, or I am this, and I want this other, or I want to be something else. All movement from motive is reaction. Reaction is not creative change.

The analytical motive so desire I see here is : "I am fed up with my pain, it must cease"; this is a fact I see in me and others ,whether conscious or not in any living human on earth too as I see-feel it (as usual there must be few exceptions somewhere but not in the main stream).

The surviving process ,the analyser by binary reaction immediately creates an opposite goal : "a sort of absolute happiness up to enlightenment would be great" !! when reality is : that is not a life but a mental misery at the best and so "I" am waiting for the next toy of all sorts whether physical or mental to have some relief from all that, a relief qualified as "happiness"..surrounded by fear,anxiety, frustration etc etc the all shebang of usual personal goodies..this is why utter wealth is a goal for so many, the dream to do all what I want is now THE goal..and it is loaded with a supreme desire for absolute, then you wonder why those guys go even more cuckoo that poor people ,as they know that their position has not changed them deeply when the poor guy still think that it is possible, yet the drug is powerful so the power need more of it...those people have something like 20 000 nuclear nice little bombs at their fingers...and some more than others are trying to go that way...kind of I am desperate ,you will pay for it..all this simply being mental dis-functioning, a bug we have...

up to that level the analyser is still concerned of course, nothing else but a sort of insanity has any reason to happen, we are still inevitably caught in the motive-desires field, so in the thought process; with pain it has a "good" motive-desire, as well as some reason to try to move its "ass".....

it wants the pain felt but unknown to go away somehow, its thinking should do the trick so it really believe..this is basically our usual mental life..caught in that corner leads us to war,business, poverty sadness, nonsense and all usual human goodies by cause-effect chain's reaction ....exactly like an atomic explosion, it is just slower...it is a suicide, suicide always being some attempt to escape from a too heavy pain...

For some being very excessive with themselves, the analyser, had tried all tricks to solve pain of nonsensical life but did not succeed, in fact it is trying to escape from...."itself" but this is here intellectual guess only, such seeing cannot be analytical, the question is how to escape about what it has no clue about, of course nothing works how could it work???? this is going on for millennium...

...and one day all this for one person or many is too much, "my" resistance is now too weak , pain forces the analyser down to its knees if there is a spark of intelligence around, nothing had work and here it is defeated, then it may or not accept its defeat( usually never) and may accept out of no choice having tried all usual tricks to let this pain (it knows nothing about) free to be.

At such precise moment the always arrogant analyser is sort of mentally killed in its own basement by much stronger than itself. The analyser must be very sensitive and fragile-weak to go that way, without sensing the idea of suicide,which by the way is "only" another attempt to escape...kill the body says the analyser that would solve the problem..same idea than "kill them all" or kill the mole at the level of a planet...

If such momentum is real, factual,there is not one single analytical desire leading for a while, for the time the self-freezing of the analyser is on due to the terrible shock to live the fact that it is defeated and useless in this case, it has temporary renounced to its glory quest,refusal, desires, quest and searches....it has been forced to be humble...

For me it is clear that without the help of this catalyst (or an x unknown factor ) that sorrow is ,that there will be nothing else but only analysing...never ending analysing..as least this was and is my own experiment so far..

this is my experience that I try to bring here .

I intentionally do not go after what happens when such thing is happening, yet relief, some goodness and more is there ..weird moments they are.

I purposely focus on that moment where the analyser is defeated and for once do the right thing, in my view and experiences..because in my own life this had been the only triggering event to tame the analyser without searching for it...

sorrow has this great advantage that to solve-escape from it, it is impossible with thinking-analysing, as the pain remains...

etc etc etc

cheers..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 18 Jun 2015.

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Thu, 18 Jun 2015 #60
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 277 posts in this forum Offline

That is, thought identified with an 'idea' has continuance as the 'I' but a thing that continues is constantly decaying, it knows birth and death. In that sense it continues , but the 'thing' that continues can never renew itself. There is renewal only when there is an 'ending'.
Say, for example, that I am worried over a problem which I am trying to solve, and I keep on worrying. What happens ? There is no renewal, is there? The problem continues day after day, week after week, year after year. But when the worrying is ended, there is a renewal, and then the problem has a different significance.

....death as an absolute potential always present is a very "relaxing trick"..in fact death like sorrow and many other right living is producing the same "mental chemical reaction".....I mean, the state of mind where the search for a meaning to a no life is gone...it is not that it is found or not found, such question, and all search as an adult caught in suffering like we all are despite the negation of that fact , is not asked or a subject at all....the end of suffering means the birth of "something else" X...

so death I find that vital to like sorrow is....of course those are not subjects ,as this is what we fear most..bearing in mind that fear means : running away....fear is for me a no word, a poor symbol, an incomplete symbol...

if one starts being conscious that this "no word" fear, hides a running away...then inquiry can start somehow...the word fear is a huge mistake for me..

now about the problem I am trying to solve as in k's example..if the problem is deeply known it will be solved by the very seeing of its roots is what I know, meaning the analyser is not the one which does that..we already are entering here in the missing process competencies, this "world" already has a very different taste than ordinary life caught in thought....what I have observed here too is this : I feel let us say awfully down, to use more words that the usual ones...the analyser is trying to solve that, to get rid of it would be more adequate.

Often the reality was that the analyser always finds many reasons for such state awful of mind, money, work, the neighbours, society, politician, the priest, the left ,the right,death, lack of this, lack of that etc up to name everything it can remember or imagine , then it becomes an activist in some fields or a slave to the master, same energy behind ...the analyser tried to search everywhere but NEVER considered that the problem could be itself...this is an effect of the dividing analytical program, this produces too the so called completion for example, which in fact is a process of elimination directly originated from the analytical capacities...it just does its blind work in all fields including where it should never go..

anyway...what I have observed each time of crisis lived and not escaped, so again the sorrow of it must be left free without any search for anything..this is the immense difficulty of it, what I have observed is this..when the root problem related to the sorrow, the pain the awful state etc is found , not once the analyser had been able to find it, never...........
and I stay with that for now..as I have to go.....

Dan ...........

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