Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Experimenter's Corner | moderated by John Raica

Pages from the Book of Life


Displaying posts 421 - 426 of 426 in total
Mon, 26 Dec 2016 #421
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Offline

SO SPOKE KRISHNAMURTI IN 1955 (In Ojai)

K: (...) I hope that you are not being 'mesmerized' (and subliminally influenced ?) by me. What I am saying has meaning, I am not saying it casually. You listen with silence. If that silence is merely the result of being overpowered by another personality, or by ideas, then it is utterly valueless. But if your silence is the natural outcome of your attention in observing your own thoughts, your own mind, then you are not being mesmerized, you are not being hypnotized. Then you do not create a new collective, a new following, a new leader - which is a horror, it has no meaning and is most destructive. If you are really alert, inwardly observant, you will find that these talks will have been worthwhile, because they will have revealed the functioning of your own mind. Then you have nothing to 'learn from another', therefore there is no teacher, no disciple, no following.

Question: Many people who have been through the shattering experience of war seem unable to find their place in the modern world. Tossed about by the waves of this chaotic society, they drift from one occupation to another and lead a miserable life. I am such a person. What am I to do?

Krishnamurti: This culture is based on envy, turmoil, its 'religions' destroy the religious mind. Then what is an individual to do? Having been shattered by war, either you become a neurotic, or you go to somebody who will help you to be non-neurotic and fit into the social pattern, thereby continuing a society that breeds insanity, wars and corruption. Or else - which is really very difficult - you observe this whole structure of society and are free of it. Being free of ( the mentality of this ?) society implies not being ambitious, not being covetous, not being competitive; it implies being nothing in relation to that society which is striving to be something. But you see, it is very difficult to accept that, because you may be trodden on, you may be pushed aside; you will have nothing. In that 'no-thingness' there is sanity, not in the other. The moment you see that, the moment you are 'as nothing', then life looks after you. It does. Something happens. But that requires immense insight into the whole structure of society. As long as one wants to be part of this society, one must breed insanity, wars, destruction and misery; but to free oneself from this society, the society of violence, of wealth, of position, of success, requires patience, inquiry, self-discovery, not the reading of books, the chasing after teachers, psychologists, and all the rest of it.

Question: I am puzzled by the phrase you used in last week's talk, 'a completely controlled mind'. Does not a controlled mind involve will or an entity who controls?

Krishnamurti: I did use that expression, 'a controlled mind', and I thought I had explained what I meant by it. I see it has not been understood, so I shall explain again. Isn't it necessary to have a very steady mind a mind that has no distractions? Please follow this. A mind that has no distractions is a mind for which there is no central ( self) interest. If there is a central interest, then there are distractions. But a mind that is completely attentive, not towards a particular object, is a steady mind.

Now, let us examine briefly this whole question of control. When there is control there is an entity who controls, who dominates, who sublimates or finds a substitute. So in control there is always a dual process going on: the one who controls, and the thing that is controlled. In other words, there is conflict. Can the entity who evaluates totally disappear, and only the fact remain? Can the mind look at the fact without evaluation, that is, without opinion? When there is an opinion about a fact, then there is confusion, conflict.

So, confusion is a waste of energy and the mind must be confused as long as it approaches the fact with a conclusion, with an idea, with an opinion, with a judgment, with condemnation. But when the mind sees the fact as true without opinion, then there is only the perception of the fact, and out of that comes an extraordinary steadiness and subtlety of mind, because there is then no deviation, no escape, no judgment, no conflict in which the mind wastes itself. So there is only thinking, not a thinker; but the experiencing of that is very difficult.

Look what happens. You see a lovely sunset. At the precise moment of seeing it, there is no experiencer, is there? There is only the sense of great beauty. Then the mind says, 'How beautiful that was, I would like to have more of it', so the conflict begins of the experiencer wanting more. Now, can the mind be in a state of experiencing without the experiencer? The experiencer is memory, the collective. Oh, do you see it? And can I look at the sunset without comparing, without saying, 'How beautiful that is. I wish I could have more of it'? The 'more' is the creation of time, in which there is the fear of ending, the fear of death.

Question: Is there a duality between the mind and the self ? If there is not, how is one to free the mind from the self?

Krishnamurti: Is there a duality between the'me', the self, the ego, and the mind? Surely not. The mind is the self, the ego. The ego, the self, is this urge of envy, of brutality, of violence, this lack of love, this everlasting seeking of prestige, position, power, trying to be something - which is what the mind is also doing, is it not? The mind is thinking all the time how to advance itself, how to have more security, how to have a better position, more comfort, greater wealth, increased power, all of which is the self. So the mind is the self; the self is not a separate thing, though we like to think it is, because then the mind can control the self, it can play this game of back and forth, subjugating, trying to do something about the self - which is the immature play of an educated mind, educated in the wrong sense of that word.

Look. I and my mind are the same, there is no division between myself and my mind. The self that is envious, ambitious, is exactly the same as the mind that says, 'I must not be envious, I must be noble', only the mind has divided itself. Now, when I see that, what am I to do? If the mind is the product of environment, of envy, greed, conditioning, then what is it to do? Surely, any movement it makes to free itself is still part of that conditioning. All right? Do you understand? Any movement on the part of the mind to free itself from conditioning is an action of the self which wants to be free in order to be more happy, more at peace, nearer the right hand of God. So I see the whole of this, the ways and trickeries of the mind. Therefore the mind is quiet, it is completely still, there is no movement; and it is in that silence, in that stillness, that there is freedom from the self, from the mind itself. Surely, the 'self' (consciousness ) exists only in the movement of the mind to gain something or to avoid something. If there is no movement of gaining or avoiding, the mind is completely quiet. Then only is there a possibility of being free from the totality of ( self-centred) consciousness as the 'collective' and as ( the individual) opposed to the collective.

Question: having seriously experimented with your teachings for a number of years, I have become fully aware of the parasitic nature of self-consciousness and see its tentacles touching my every thought, word and deed. As a result, I have lost all self-confidence as well as all motivation. Work has become drudgery and leisure drabness. I am in almost constant psychological pain, yet I see even this pain as a device of the self. I have reached an impasse in every department of my life, and I ask you as I have been asking myself: What now?

Krishnamurti: Are you experimenting with my teachings, or are you experimenting with yourself? I hope you see the difference. If you are experimenting with what I am saying, then you must come to, 'What now?', because then you are trying to achieve a result which you think I have. You think I have something which you do not have, and that if you experiment with what I am saying, you also will get it - which is what most of us do. We approach these things with a commercial mentality: I will do this in order to get that. I will worship, meditate, sacrifice in order to get something.

Now, you are not practising my teachings. All that I am saying is, observe your own mind, see to what depths the mind can go; therefore you are important, not the teachings. It is important for you to find out your own ways of thinking and what that thinking implies, as I have been trying to point out this morning. And if you are really observing your own thinking, if you are watching, experimenting, discovering, letting go, dying each day to everything that you have gathered, then you will never put that question, `What now?'

You see, the confidence that comes into being when you are discovering from moment to moment is entirely different from the self-confidence arising from the accumulation of ( wealth and ?) discoveries which becomes knowledge and gives you importance. Do you see the difference? Therefore the problem of self-confidence completely disappears. There is only the constant movement of discovery, the constant reading and understanding, not of a book, but of your own mind, the whole, vast structure of consciousness. Then you are not seeking a result at all. It is only when you are seeking a result that you say, `I have done all these things but I have got nothing, and I have lost confidence. What now?' Whereas, if you are examining, understanding the ways of your own mind without seeking a reward, an end, without the motivation of gain, then there is self-knowledge, and you will see an astonishing thing come out of it.

Question: How can one prevent ( "choiceless ?) awareness" from becoming a new technique, the latest fashion in meditation?

Krishnamurti: As this is a very serious question I am going into it rather deeply, and I hope you can follow with relaxed alertness the workings of your own mind.

It is enormously important to meditate. But if you do not know what meditation is, it is like having a flower without scent. Meditation is the perfume of life, it has immense beauty. It opens doors that the mind can never open, it goes to depths that the merely cultured mind can never touch. So meditation is very important. Now, if we can brush aside, the swamis, the yogis, the interpreters, the 'breathers', the 'sitting-stillers', and all the rest of it, then we must inevitably come to this question: What is meditation?

Do you know what meditation is? Obviously you don't (really ?) , do you? You don't know. And that is the basis on which to meditate. Do you understand the beauty of that? It means that my mind is stripped of all technique, of all information about meditation, of everything others have said about it. My mind does not know. We can proceed with finding out what is meditation only when you can honestly say that you do not know; and you cannot say, 'I do not know' if there is in your mind the glimmer of secondhand information, of what the Gita. or the Bible or Saint Francis has said about contemplation, or the results of prayer. You must put all that aside, because if you copy, if you follow, you revert to the ( inwardly inert ?) 'collective' (consciousness ?).

So, can the mind be in a state in which it says, 'I do not know'? That state is the beginning and the end of meditation, because in that state every experience, every experience is understood and not accumulated. Do you understand? When you say, 'I do not know', then there is no ( self-centred ?) movement of thought, is there? There is a movement of thought only when 'you' begin to inquire, to find out, and that (self-centred ?) inquiry is from the known to the known.

Meditation is a process of purgation of the mind. There can be purgation of the mind only when there is no 'controller'; in controlling, the controller dissipates energy. Dissipation of energy arises from the friction between the controller and the object he wishes to control. Now, when you say, 'I do not know', there is no movement of thought in any direction to find an answer; the mind is completely still. And for the mind to be still, there must be extraordinary energy. The mind cannot be still without the energy that is complete attention. Any movement of ( the self-centred ?) thought in any direction is a dissipation of energy, and for the mind to be completely still there must be the energy of complete attention. Only then is there the coming into being of 'that' state which is Creativity (Creation ?) , that is the Timeless, the Real.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 28 Dec 2016 #422
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Offline

SO SPOKE KRISHNAMURTI IN 1956 (IN NEW DELHI)

K:(...) I don't think we see sufficiently clearly the truth that an occupied mind is a petty mind. Whether the mind is occupied with self-improvement, with God, with drink, with sexual passion or the desire for power, it is all essentially the same, though sociologically these various occupations may have a difference. Occupation is occupation, and the mind that is occupied is petty because it is concerned with itself. If you see, if you actually experience the truth of that fact, surely your mind is no longer concerned with itself, with its own improvement; so there is a possibility for the mind that has been enclosed to remove its enclosure.

Just as an experiment, observe for yourself that a mind which is occupied starts with an assumption, it approaches life with an idea, a conclusion. And a challenge is always new, is it not? If the mind is incapable of responding adequately to challenge, there is a deterioration, a going back; and the mind cannot respond adequately if it is consciously or unconsciously occupied, occupation being based on some ideology or conclusion. If you realize the truth of this, you will find that the mind is no longer petty, because it is in a state of inquiry, and a mind that is truly inquiring is not accumulating. It is the accumulating mind that is petty, whether it is accumulating knowledge, or money, power, position. When you see the truth of that totally, there is real transformation of the mind, and it is such a mind that is capable of dealing with the many problems.

I am going to answer some questions, and as I have pointed out, the answer is not (primarily ?) important. What is important is the ( unfolding of ?) problem, and if the mind can give undivided attention to the problem. All solutions are based on desire, and the problems exists because of desire - desire for a hundred things. Without understanding the whole process of desire, merely to respond to the problem through one particular activity of desire, hoping it will produce the right answer, will not bring about the dissolution of the problem.

Question: I entirely agree with you that it is necessary to uncondition one's mind. But how can a conditioned mind uncondition itself?

Krishnamurti: How can a mind which is ( culturally ?) conditioned, uncondition itself? Your mind is conditioned, that is obvious, not partially, but all the way through. Don't say the Atman is unconditioned. When you think of the Atman, your thought is conditioning the Atman.

So, the question is this: I know that my mind is conditioned; and how am I to free my mind from conditioning when ( even) the entity that tries to free it is also conditioned? This is a very difficult issue to discuss with such a large group, and unless you pay real attention you will not find the answer. I am not going to give you the answer, so you have to observe your own minds very intently.
Now, when you say, "I know I am conditioned", do you really know it, or is that merely a verbal statement? Do you 'know' (realise ?) it with the same potency with which you see a cobra? When you see a snake and know it to be a cobra, there is immediate, unpremeditated action; and when you say, "I know I am conditioned", has it the same vital significance as your perception of the cobra? Or is it merely a superficial acknowledgment of the fact, and not the realization of the fact? When I realize the fact that I am conditioned, there is immediate action. I don't have to make an effort to uncondition myself. The very fact that I am conditioned, and the realization of that fact, brings an immediate clarification. The difficulty lies in not realizing that you are conditioned - not realizing it in the sense of understanding all its implications, seeing that all thought, however subtle, however cunning, however sophisticated or philosophical, is conditioned.

All thinking is obviously based on memory, conscious or unconscious, and when the thinker says, "I must free myself from conditioning", that very thinker, being the result of thought, is conditioned; and when you realize this, there is the cessation of all effort to change the conditioning. The mind that fully realizes this is in an unconditioned state, because it has seen the totality of conditioning, the truth or the falseness of it. Sirs, it is like seeing something true. The very perception of what is true is the liberating factor. But to see what is true demands total attention - not a forced attention, not the calculated, profitable attention of fear or gain. When you see the truth that whatever the conditioned mind does to free itself, it is still conditioned, there is the cessation of all such effort, and it is this perception of what is true that is the liberating factor.

Question: How can I experience God, which will give a meaning to my weary life? Without that experience, what is the purpose of living?

Krishnamurti: (...) So you can find out with clarity, with truth, with real experience whether there is God or not, only when the mind is totally free from the known. Surely, that something which may be called God or Truth must be something totally new, unrecognizable, and a mind that approaches it through knowledge, through experience, through ideas and accumulated virtues, is trying to capture the unknown while living in the field of the known, which is an impossibility. All that the mind can do is to inquire whether it is possible to free itself from the known. To be free from the known is to be completely free from all the impressions of the past, from the whole weight of tradition. The ( self-centred) mind itself is the product of the known, it is put together by time as the 'me' and the 'not-me', which is the conflict of duality. If the 'known' totally ceases, consciously as well as unconsciously - and I say that there is a possibility of its ceasing - , then you will never ask if there is God , because such a mind is immeasurable in itself; like love, it is its own eternity.

Question: I have practised meditation most earnestly for twenty-five years, and I am still unable to go beyond a certain point. How am I to proceed further?

Krishnamurti: Before we inquire into how to proceed further, must we not find out what meditation is? When I ask, "How am I to meditate?", am I not putting a wrong question? Such a question implies that I want to get somewhere, and I am willing to practise. a method in order to get what I want. It is like taking an examination in order to get a job. Surely, the right question is to ask what meditation is; because right meditation gives perfume, depth, significance to life, and without it life has very little meaning. Do you understand, sirs? To know what is right meditation is much more important than earning a livelihood, getting married, having money, property, because without understanding, these things are all destroyed (by time) . So the understanding of the heart is the beginning of meditation.

So, what is meditation? Is not this very inquiry the beginning of meditation? Do you understand, sirs? No? I will go on and you will see. Is meditation a process of concentration, forcing the mind to conform to a particular pattern? That is what most of you do who 'meditate'. You try to force your mind to focus on a certain idea, but other ideas creep in; you brush them away, but they creep in again. You go on playing this game for the next twenty years; and if at last you can manage to concentrate your mind on a chosen idea, you think you have learned how to meditate. But is that meditation? Let us see what is involved in concentration.

When a child is concentrating on a toy, what is happening? The attention of the child is being absorbed by the toy. He is not giving his attention to the toy, but the toy is very interesting and it absorbs his attention. That is exactly what is happening to you when you concentrate on the idea of the Master, on a picture, or when you repeat mantrams, and all the rest of it. The toy is absorbing you, and you are merely a plaything of the toy. You thought you were the master of the toy, but the toy is the master.

Concentration also implies exclusiveness. You exclude in order to arrive at a particular result, like a boy trying to pass an examination. The boy wants a profitable result, so he forces himself to concentrate, he makes tremendous effort to get what he wants, which is based on his desire, on his conditioning. And does not this process of forcing the mind to concentrate, which involves suppression, exclusiveness, make the mind narrow? A mind that is made narrow, one-pointed, has extraordinary possibilities in the sense that it may achieve a great deal; but life is not one-pointed, it is an enormous thing to be comprehended, to be loved. It is not petty. Sirs, this is not rhetoric, this is not mere verbiage. When one feels something real, the expression of it may sound rhetorical, but it is not.

So, to concentrate is not to meditate, even though that is what most of you do, calling it meditation. And if concentration is not meditation, then what is? Surely, meditation is to understand every thought that comes into being, and not to dwell upon one particular thought; it is to invite all thoughts so that you understand the whole process of thinking. But what do you do now? You try to think of just one good thought, one good image, you repeat one good sentence which you have learnt from the Gita, the Bible, or what you will; therefore your mind becomes very narrow, limited, petty. Whereas, to be aware of every thought as it arises, and to understand the whole process of thinking, does not demand concentration. On the contrary. To understand the total process of thinking, the mind must be astonishingly alert, and then you will see that what you call thinking is based on a mind that is conditioned. So your inquiry is not how to control thought, but how to free the mind from conditioning. The effort to control thought is part of the process of concentration in which the concentrator tries to make his mind silent, peaceful, is it not? "To have peace of mind" - that is a phrase which all of us use.

Now, what is peace of mind? How can the mind be quiet, have peace? Surely, not through discipline. The mind cannot be made still. A mind that is made still is a dead mind. To discover what it is to be still, one must inquire into the whole content of the mind - which means, really, finding out why the mind is seeking. Is the motive of search the desire for comfort, for permanency, for reward? If so, then such a mind may be still, but it will not find peace, because its stillness is forced, it is based on compulsion, fear, and such a mind is not a peaceful mind. We are still inquiring into the whole process of meditation.

People who 'meditate' and have visions of Christ, Krishna, Buddha, the Virgin, or whoever it be, think they are advancing, making marvellous progress; but after all, the vision is the projection of their own background. What they want to see, they see, and that is obviously not meditation. On the contrary, meditation is to free the mind from all conditioning, and this is not a process that comes into being at a particular moment of the day when you are sitting cross-legged in a room by yourself. It must go on when you are walking when you are frightened, when you are getting into the bus; it means watching the manner of your speech when you are talking to your wife, to your boss, to your servant. All that is meditation.

So meditation is the understanding of the 'meditator'. Without understanding the one who meditates, which is yourself, inquiry into how to meditate has very little value. The beginning of meditation is self-knowledge, and the mind which understands itself is a meditative mind. Self-knowledge is the beginning of meditation, and as you proceed deeply into it you will find that the mind becomes astonishingly quiet, unforced, completely still, without motion - which means there is no experiencer demanding experience. When there is only that state of stillness without any movement of the mind, then you will find that in that state something else takes place. But you cannot possibly find out intellectually what that state is; you cannot come to it through the description of another, including myself. All that you can do is to free the mind from its conditioning, from the traditions, the greed, and all the petty things with which it is now burdened. Then you will see that, without your seeking it, the mind is astonishingly quiet; and for such a mind, That which is immeasurable comes into being. You cannot go to the immeasurable, you cannot search it out, you cannot delve into the depths of it. You can delve only into the recesses of your own heart and mind. You cannot invite truth, it must come to you; therefore don't seek it. Understand your own life and then truth will come darkly, without any invitation; and then you will discover that there is immense beauty, a sensitivity to both the ugly and the beautiful.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 29 Dec 2016 #423
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Offline

SO SPOKE KRISHNAMURTI IN 1957 (IN BOMBAY)

K (...) There is a religious revolution which takes place in the individual when there is no becoming of any kind, that is, when I inwardly see the fact of what I am without any form of distortion: the fact that I am envious, acquisitive, Utterly lacking in humility. If I am aware of the fact of what I am and do not approach it with an opinion, with a judgment, with an evaluation - because opinion, judgment and evaluation are based on the intention of transforming the fact, which is the desire to become something - then that fact itself brings about a transformation in which there is no becoming at all. To be aware of the fact that one is envious without condemning it, is extraordinarily difficult, because the very word `envy' has a condemnatory significance. But if you can free the mind from that condemnatory evaluation, if you can be aware of the feeling without identifying the feeling with the word, then you will find that there is no longer the urge to change it into something else. A feeling without verbalization, without evaluation, has no quality of becoming. And you will also find that when there is a feeling without verbalization, there is no desire for its fulfilment. There is a desire for the fulfilment of a feeling only when there is identification of that feeling with a word, with an evaluation.

It is becoming that gives soil to the root of sorrow; and if you go into it very deeply, really think it out so that the mind frees itself from the whole process of becoming, then you will find that you have eliminated sorrow altogether. It is only such a mind that is concerned with the primary, which is reality, and because it is concerned with the primary, its action on the secondary will have its own significance.

Merely to be concerned with the secondary (issues) will never lead to the primary. It is like putting a room in order, cleaning and decorating the room, all of which is essential; but it has no meaning without that which comes into the room. Similarly, virtue is essential. A mind that is virtuous, austere, has put itself in order; and the mind must have order, it must have clarity. But order, clarity, humility, austerity, have no significance in themselves; they have significance only because the mind that has them is: capable of proceeding without the experiencer who is gathering further experience, and therefore there is no becoming but only being. That is, the mind is completely empty of all ideas based on the experiencer, on the thinker, on the observer who is always becoming. It is only in emptying the mind of this whole process of becoming that there is being, which has its own movement unrelated to becoming; and a man who, while becoming, seeks that state of being, will never find it. The man who is pursuing ambition, fulfilment, who desires to become something, will never find reality, God. He may read all the sacred books, do puja every day, go to all the temples in the world, but sorrow will be his shadow.

So it seems to me very important to understand in oneself this process of becoming - and such understanding is essentially self-knowledge. Self-knowledge is the understanding of ( self-) becoming, which is the 'me; and when, through self-knowledge, becoming ceases, there is within him a religious revolution. This is the only revolution that can bring about a different world in every way - economically, politically, and in our ,social relationships.

There are three written questions this evening, and I am not going to 'answer' these questions, because life has no answers. Life must be lived, and a man who merely sits on the bank wanting to swim, who only asks a question in order to receive an answer, is not living. But if you are living, you will find the answer at every step, and that is why it is very important to understand the problem itself and not seek an answer, a solution to the problem.

Question: Reality has been defined as SATYAM, SHIVAM, SUNDARAM, or Truth, Goodness and Beauty. All religious teachers have stressed Truth and Goodness. What place has Beauty in the experiencing of Reality?

Krishnamurti: Is there a difference, between goodness, truth and beauty? Are they three different things, or really one thing which can be called by these three different names? To understand truth, goodness, or beauty, we have tried to suppress desire, to discipline, control, or find a substitute for desire. Finding that desire is tremendously active, volcanic in its operation, and that it brings extraordinary sorrow, pain and joy, we say we must be free of desire. That is what all religions have maintained, that we must be free of desire in order to find truth, beauty, goodness; so for centuries we have proceeded to suppress desire, and in the very suppression of desire we have lost sensitivity to goodness, to truth, to beauty.

What is beauty? How am I to find out 'experientially ?) what (the inner ?) beauty is, not verbally or theoretically, but actually to experience the feeling of that extraordinary thing called beauty?
Most of us know beauty as a reaction, a response. And I am asking myself: Is there a feeling which may be termed beauty, goodness, or truth, and which is not a response, not merely a reaction?
After all, our minds are the result of reaction, of challenge and inadequate response to challenge, and therefore there is struggle, there is pain. On this whole process the mind is based, extensively or very narrowly; and when I see a tree a bird, a nice-looking person, a child, or when I see poverty, squalor, ugly buildings, I say "How beautiful!" or "How ugly!" depending on my reaction and on the kind of attention I give.

But when I am fully attentive, in that full attention is there a reaction? And is there attention when there is an object of attention? As I have said, attention with an object is no attention at all, because the object absorbs you. But if I am fully attentive, with the totality of my being, then in that state is there a reaction? In that state is there what is called the beautiful and the ugly?

Now, I am asking myself , is there a state in which the mind is fully aware of and understands its own reaction to beauty as well as to ugliness, and does not call it beautiful or ugly because it is giving that complete attention in which there is the totality of experience? And in that state of total attention, is there an entity who says, "I have experienced beauty" or "I have experienced ugliness", or is there only a feeling, an experiencing which is not a reaction, not the result of a cause? So, can the mind - without losing its sensitivity to the ugliness and to the beauty created by man in a building or in a statue - experience that totality of attention in which it does not create the beautiful and the ugly?

Sirs, as I said, this is a very complex question, and to understand really, not merely verbally, what is beauty, or goodness, or truth, the mind must be empty of the word and its reaction to that word. Then you will find that there is a totality of experience, and not an experiencer who is experiencing the totality. In that state there is a creativeness which has nothing to do with the creations of a contradictory mind which must find a release through building, through architecture, through the writing of poems, essays, and so on.

Question: To you, 'love' is the solvent of all human problems. I have no love, and yet I have to live. But (since you are saying that ) love can never be cultivated. Does this mean that my problems can never be solved?

Krishnamurti: Most of us would want a definition of love, or we seek that state of love which we call universal, cosmic, godly, and all the rest of it, without understanding our daily existence. But don't we know in our daily living any kind of friendliness, kindliness, gentleness? Are we never generous, compassionate? Have we never the feeling of being good to another without motive, have we never a sense of great humility? Are not these the expressions of love? And when you love another, is there not a total feeling in which the 'I' is non-existent?
Surely, love is the state of mind in which the 'me' has no importance. To love is to be friendly. Do you understand, sirs? When you love you have no enmity, you cause no enmity. And you do cause enmity when you belong to religions, to countries, to political parties. When you have a great deal of land, immense wealth, while others have little or nothing, you cause enmity, though you may build temples with your wealth. You have no ( natural) friendliness when you are seeking position, power, prestige.

Yes, you will all nod your heads and agree with me, but you are going to pursue your ancient ways; and the tragedy is, not that you have no (moments of ?) love, but that you have no understanding of the ways of your own life, you do not see the significance of the way you are actually living. If you understood that, really felt it, then you would be generous. Surely, the generosity of the hand and of the heart is the beginning of friendliness; and where there is friendliness, there is no need for justice by law. Where there is friendliness there is goodness, a compassion without motive. You have been friendly occasionally, when you were not thinking about yourself, when you were not so concerned about your own problems. And when you go beyond all that, there comes something entirely different - a state in which the mind is compassionate and yet 'indifferent'. I am talking of an indifference which is the outcome of compassion; the mind is compassionate and yet indifferent. Have you ever felt that way? When you see someone in pain you help him, and yet you are 'indifferent' (non-personal ?) in the very process of helping.

So, if you observe the functioning of your own mind, you will find that all these things (do already ) exist in your daily life. You know moments of compassion, moments of love, of generosity, but they are very rare. While our calculated actions are based on this process of becoming something important, and only the mind that is free from becoming can know that love which is the solvent of our many problems.

Question: If, as you say, God or Reality is beyond the mind, then has God any relationship to my everyday life?

Krishnamurti: Sir, what is our everyday life actually? It is confused, miserable, ambitious, envious, stupid, is it not? We quote a lot of books containing the experiences of others about which we know nothing, we repeat what we have been taught, we struggle, suffer, and occasionally there is a movement of joy which is gone before we can feel the depth of it. That is our life: a vain process of lying, cheating, trying to become something important, struggling to dominate, to suppress. And do you think such a life has anything to do with ( the ultimate) Reality, with Goodness, with Beauty, with God, with something which is not man-made? Yet, knowing what our daily life is, we want to bring that (holy ?) Reality into it, so we go to temples, we read the sacred books, we talk about God, we say that we are seeking salvation, and so on. We want to bring that Immensity, That which is measureless, into the measurable. And is such a thing possible?

Do you see how the ( self-centred ?) mind deceives itself? Can you bring the Unknown, that which cannot be experienced, into the conditioned, into the realm of the known? Obviously not. So don't try it. Don't try to find God, truth, for it has no meaning. All you can do is to observe the operation of your own mind, which is the area of conflict, misery, suffering, ambition, fulfilment, frustration. That you can understand, and its narrow borders can be broken down.

So, a man who is aware of all this is not ( primarily ?) concerned with Reality, with the Immeasurable, the Unknowable; he is concerned with the ending of envy, with the ending of sorrow, with the ending of this whole process of ( self-) becoming. That you can do - you can do it every day by being alert to your envy, watchful of the way you talk, the way you show respect which is no respect, the way you acquire, accumulate. Through ( an insightful ?) self-knowledge the mind can liberate itself from its limitations, its conditioning, and this liberating of itself from conditioning is meditation.

Do not try to meditate on ( the Ultimate ) Reality, because you cannot; that is an impossibility. Meditation on God has no meaning. How can a mind which is conditioned, small, petty, envious, meditate on something Unknowable? All the mind can do is to free itself from the known - the "known" of your ambitions, your identifications, your greeds. Freeing the mind from the memory of all this, is meditation. And when the mind is free, then you will find that there comes an extraordinary quietness, a stillness in which there is no 'experiencer' who is always measuring, remembering, calculating, desiring. Then the mind is ( becoming ?) aware of something totally different, a state which is in itself a blessing, which has within itself a movement that has no centre and therefore no beginning and no ending. A mind that is capable of this total attention without the entity who is experiencing what is taking place, will find there is a Reality, a Goodness, a Beauty which is not a (sensory or intellectual ) reaction, which is without a cause, and is therefore something in itself. But the realization of that Immensity cannot come about unless the mind is totally empty of the known.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 31 Dec 2016 #424
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Offline

SO SPOKE KRISHNAMURTI IN 1958 (In Madras)

(...) I hope you are listening rather than just 'hearing' because I want to go into something rather difficult: as I was saying, the 'negative' thinking is the highest form of thinking. We usually think only positively. That is, we think from a conclusion to an (upgraded ?) conclusion, from a pattern to a pattern, from a system to a system. ( But psychologically-wise ?) that way of thinking only leads to further limitation of the mind, to narrowness of the mind, to pettiness of action; it always strengthens the self-centred activity. Negative thinking is something entirely different - if I can understand the (iinward) limitations of positive thinking, which invariably leads to self-centred activity, then there is (an opportunity for ?) a new awakening in negative thinking. This 'negative thinking' is not thinking in terms of ( previously known ?) patterns and has no causation.

We will approach it differently: the negative way of thinking is the maintenance, the sustenance of the (holistic ?) quality that is discontent - discontent in itself, not with something. A radical (inner) transformation is only in the negative thinking, as we saw in relation to attachment and to discontent. The 'positive' thinking leads (inwardly) only to a dull mind, an insensitive mind, a mind that is not capable of reception, a mind that thinks only in terms of its own security - either the security of the individual or of the family, group or race.

Nobody thinks of this whole world as "ours", nobody says, 'let us do something together about it'. Instead, we have this fragmentary way of thinking which we call 'positive'. If I can see that, then there is a different approach, a different feeling of the mind : there is the love of the earth - not your earth and my earth, you cultivating your little field and I cultivating mine, and quarrelling over it, but it is our earth.

Now when we see that (ultimately) this positive way of thinking is destructive, then the 'negative way' comes into being. To think negatively there must be ( a total) sensitivity, sensitivity both to the beautiful and to the ugly. The appreciation of the beauty of a tree, a leaf, the reflection on still waters, is not sensitivity if you are not also aware of the squalor, the dirt, the way you eat, the way you talk, the way you think, the way of your behaviour.
( Inwardly speaking ?) Creation is not 'positive', ever. Creation is the state of mind in which there is no 'positive' (self-centred ?) action as we know it.

You must have watched your mind how vagrant it is, how it wanders all over the place, one thought pursuing another. When you try to examine one thought, another comes in. So the mind is full of this (mental) movement, the agitation of thought. The mind is always occupied with thought. Thought is the instrument of the mind; so the mind is never still. So, realizing the incessant activity of the thought-producing mechanism, through memory, through association, being aware of that, cannot the mind empty itself of this mechanism? If you see the positive, destructive way, of your mind's activity of producing thought and being controlled by it and then trying to empty the mind - if you can see the falseness of it, then you will also see that the mind can empty itself of 'itself', of its limitations, of its ego-centricity, of its self-centred activities. t You can see if you go a little further that the mind can be emptied of thought, can free itself from the past, not be burdened by the past. It does not mean that memories are not there but they do not shape or control the mind. Now all that is still positive thinking. If you see the falseness of it, the mind will invariably go further, which is, the mind then is not the slave of thought but it can think what it wants.

I do not know if you have ever tried to think without being a slave to thought. With most of us the mind is a slave to thought, it pursues thought, contradictory thought and all the rest of it. If you perceive that and empty the mind, it can then think, freed from thoughts associated with memory; and if you go further into it, you will see that the mind which is free in itself - and then that mind, emptied of memory, can think in a 'negative' way and can perceive that there is action in this world, not from fullness but from emptiness.

You see, we are acting now with (knowledge saturated ?) minds, minds that are incessantly active, in contradiction, struggling, adjusting, ambitious, envious, jealous, brutal or gentle and so on. The mind, being full, acts. That way of action can never produce a new mind, a new quality of mind, a fresh mind, an innocent mind - and it is only such an innocent, fresh mind that can create, that is in a state of creation. If the mind can empty itself (of the known ?) , then the action that is born out of emptiness is the true positive action, not the other. That is the only true, positive, creative action, because it is born out of emptiness. If you have done any painting, written a poem, a song, you will find the deep feeling comes out of nothingness. But a mind that is crowded can never feel that nothingness and can therefore never be sensitive.

One sees that there can be a radical change in the quality of the mind, which is absolutely necessary now because the present society is a (creatively ?) dead society, reforming itself through various forms of anaesthesia and pumping activity into itself. If you as an individual are to change fundamentally, radically, deeply - and therefore change society - then this whole thing that I have described must take place. Then beauty has quite a different significance, as has ugliness, because beauty is not the opposite of the ugly. An 'ugly' face can be beautiful. But such beauty is not conceived by the mind that has avoided ugliness.

Now, if you have really listened and do not try to do anything about it - because whatever you do will be so-called positive and therefore destructive - then it is enough. It is to see something lovely and leave it alone, not try to capture it, not take it home and smother it by thought. If you have seen for yourself the extraordinary quality of the mind that is empty, then from that emptiness there is a new birth.

It is this 'new birth' (re-birth ?) which is needed, and the mind that is really creative is the empty mind, not the blank mind or the mind that merely wishes to be creative. It is only the empty mind that can understand this whole thing - the extraordinary process of thought and thought emptying itself of its own impetus (momentum of the past ? ). Then you will see that there is a radical, deep change which is not brought about by circumstances, culture or society. It is that mind which will ( eventually ?) create a new ( truly humane ?) society. And recognizing that no tradition, no knowledge is 'permanent', we can see that the mind which is empty is in a state of creation.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 01 Jan 2017 #425
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 4 posts in this forum Offline

Dear John

It's indeed with so much gratitude I'm writing this post to convey my deeply felt appreciation for the work you had undertaken in bringing all this marvelous K 's early texts and presenting them in here . Well yes all k material is available on line but to be able to go through any content any time without exerting is indeed a great luxury and convenience :) and especially these early texts are priceless in their clarity and simplicity .

Wishing you a very happy, meaningful and fruitful new year .

This post was last updated by pavani rao Sun, 01 Jan 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
2 days ago #426
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 534 posts in this forum Offline

A meditation on ...Meditation ( from The Only Revolution)

To meditate is to transcend time. Time is the (mental ?) 'distance' that thought travels in its achievements. This 'travelling' is always along the old path covered over with a new coating, new sights, but always the same road, leading nowhere except to pain and sorrow.
It is only when the mind transcends time that truth ceases to be an abstraction. Then bliss is not an idea derived from pleasure but an actuality that is not verbal.

The emptying of the mind of this 'time'(of self-becoming ?) is the silence of truth, and the seeing of this is the doing; so there is no division between the seeing and the doing. In the interval between seeing and doing is born conflict, misery and confusion. That which has no time is the everlasting.

There they were, the yellow daffodils, and nobody seemed to care. They were there for decorative purposes that had no meaning at all; and as you watched them their yellow brilliance filled the noisy room. Colour has this strange effect upon the eye. It wasn't so much that the eye absorbed the colour, as that the colour seemed to fill your being. You were that colour; you didn't become that colour - you were of it, without identification or name: the anonymity which is innocence.
Love is like that. In it there is no time, space or identity. It is the identity (identification ?) that breeds pleasure and pain; it is the identity that brings hate and war and builds a wall around people, around each one, each family and community. Man reaches over the wall to the other man - but he too is enclosed; morality is a word that bridges the two, and so it becomes ugly and vain.

Love is like that wood across the way, always renewing itself because it is always dying. There is no permanency in it, a movement which thought can never understand, touch or feel. The feeling of thought and the feeling of love are two different things; the one leads to bondage and the other to the flowering of goodness. The flowering is not within the area of any society, of any culture or of any religion, whereas the bondage belongs to all societies, religious beliefs and faith in otherness. Love is anonymous, therefore not violent. Pleasure is violent, for desire and will are the moving factors in it. Love cannot be begotten by thought, or by good works. The denial of the total process of (self-centred ?) thought becomes the beauty of action, which is love. Without this there is no bliss of truth.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 421 - 426 of 426 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)