Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Pages from the Book of Life

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Tue, 19 May 2015 #1
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 496 posts in this forum Offline

Hopefully this new thread will not end up in a 'calendar' format, with carefully selected quotes and beautiful pictures, but rather offer some authentic pointers towards a spiritual or 'holistic' way of life. Many of them will be certainly inspired by the timeless truths of the K Teachings, but our fine readers and participants are free to bring in their own favourite insights- especially those which worked out in their own life.

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Fri, 22 May 2015 #2
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

Normally I feel that I am separate from my thinking: that there is a 'me' that is quite substancial and continuous and awake (except when asleep unless I reappear in my 'dream states'). Now, in inquiring into all this,
I see that 'I' am actually not separate from 'my' thoughts; that I actually AM my thoughts and as these thoughts issue from my memories, experiences, beliefs etc., that they are limited in this way and hence so am 'I'. And this situation is not particular to me but is the situation with everyone. Everyone has this sensation of themselves being separate from their thought. So this is a universal situation. And since myself is not different qualitatively from any other 'self' (in fact doesn't actually exist separate from the 'stream' of thought', the stream of 'becoming'), the question arises: If 'I' am not separate from this movement of 'becoming', if 'I' AM this movement of 'becoming', and this 'becoming' is universal among humanity, who am I, really? When (if) the 'becoming' is gone beyond, what are we in essence?

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Sat, 23 May 2015 #3
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K: ............... there is a different kind of 'movement' which is not based on experience, knowledge. Now if there is a 'breakthrough', there will be no division between the 'mind' and the energy of the brain. Do you understand? The energy of the brain has done technological work, but 'psychologically' my energy is practically nil. And I’m saying that when that limitation has been 'broken through', there is a totally different energy. So far it is only channelled through technology, which is merely the activity of thought and, therefore, that energy is limited.
The breaking down of the 'psyche' is not the energy of thought. Technology is the energy of thought, but the energy of thought is limited.

Dan....quite clear and obvious yes...

John Raica wrote:
PJ: We have moved to another dimension altogether which, if we understand, is this: The brain has done tremendous things in the field of technology, but in the realm of the 'psyche' it is still static. We were talking about the reading of the book of mankind, and my question was: Can a single brain contain it? And Krishnaji brought in the differentiation between the 'brain' and the 'mind'. He said that the brain being limited and not having moved, can only move...

just a quick word, qualifying what the brain has done as tremendous , is just automatic self congratulation, I am part of it so I am great myself too, a bigger me it is !! this is the natural and logical expected result of some analytical motives which are in the analytical program in order to make it functioning..pride,glory, extraordinary ,wow, self congratulation etc etc are just the outcome of such program ,rewards ,self rewards....collectively we made these tools, OK fine..but the analyser mentioning the tremendous never think about all the horror that goes along with is lying to itself..

What remains of this analyser if those hints of self pride and self congratulations are seen for what they are ?

John Raica wrote:
K: Pupul, let us be very clear and very careful when we speak of Creation. Thought has created, in the physical world, not only the churches, the temples and the mosques but also all the things that are in them. But because thought in itself is 'limited', thought cannot perceive a Mind that is immeasurable. The function of thought is to reduce everything to its limited, mechanical, fragmentary activity. Right? And we are saying that as long as the brain is conditioned, it can never understand the immensity of the nature of the Mind. If you see this, you will also see your 'responsibility' to decondition the brain, to decondition the limitation which thought has imposed on it. Yes, I’ve got it. That’s it.

If I am in this corner, not having solved sorrow even partially only , not having brought then what is unconscious into the open, not having any direct experiences of something else which is not the usual thinking...can I go any other way that analytically into such subject ?

I have been trapped in this subtle k's analytical words for years....this is why I mention...

he is for me putting the kart before the horse..not mentioning that he knows by experience what he is talking about..and I think that this is a mistake not to have mentioned that, or even from time to time not even say "I have lived that", or "this is what happened to me, let me tell you as closely as possible"!

...what he is saying seems to come from "nowhere",magic, as it seem to happen to one human being every 2000 years, an exception so confirming our status of violent and totally ruthless creature, this does no make sense,something agreed somewhere by k himself of course!
.. it comes from nowhere or much worse from a cleaver analyser which now sees, understand etc etc when it is not that at all, it is surely not the case . Thought is not able to go into those fields,yet it can pretend if clever enough.

obviously all have gone somehow through his own brain mind before as personal experimentation of someone beyond the personal so linked with the global and if global there is it necessarily has no end,as otherwise it is again only partial!!

if not he is he is too talking from analytical memories here,and why not from a direct moment here he is "connected " ,this I cannot possibly know....with the clarity of reel experience, yes indeed..but the reader may be fooled or fooling himself...there is so a danger in that, for me it is clear that there is such danger or catch 22...because again ,this is going to be digested by the analyser only..who is now able to create a more subtle and sophisticated intellectual pipe dream,without knowing it at all..

John Raica wrote:
K: Our senses are ( presently?) 'controlled' by thought . Take, for example, my sense of taste—anything that is bitter, 'I don’t like', and anything that is sweet, 'I like' . So thought has come in.
The question is whether there is a 'total' movement of all the senses without the interference of thought. Look at the question first. Have you ever looked at the vast movement of the sea, at the movement of the tides, and at the enormous power of the waves, with 'all your senses' operating? If you do that, there is no interference of thought. Now when thought interferes with the senses, it must inevitably be to limit ( use?) them or control them.

when such thing happens for real, this is experience, anything is deeply interesting and not only the sea, the waves ,not only the mountain, not only a fantastic surrounding or sunset or whatever, a simple glass would have as much strength than the biggest mountain, qualified of extraordinary and beautiful by the analyser...division has ended, values are gone, hierarchy is destroyed, so all is "interesting" and beyond the touch of the analyser....I have lived that deeply a few times....

but what the analyser listening to that may get is that there is something extraordinary and wonderful beyond its ordinary no life and sorrowful fight is now creating a new goal: I must have that!! heaven is for me...

another illusory non existing craving is born and more problems will be added to those existing and so unsolved..bit by bit but surely , I am sinking .

in such is clear that "something x" not of analytical thought takes the full control of the brain mind, and there is no looking, no watching, no seeing as such ,all this just happens by itself , how ? i have no single, k has not either or does not say....

then it is interesting i am sure of that to mention to others just to say: listen this happened and I want to say , to share, like one would share any discovery in technical fields for no profit, conscious that behind something may be of some peaceful use for others in a global attitude to live together and not one against each other...any discoveries in all fields whether practical whether non practical are never ours....the stupid analyser thinks that it is...and uses that in its useless and destructive quest to run away from life...

John Raica wrote:
PJ: So, we are talking of the 'essence' of all thought, of the 'essence' of all the senses. Then it is this 'essence' itself that is the ( new perceptive?) instrument.

K: Leave it for the moment. When there is a 'heightened excellence' of the senses, the senses are not 'aware' . You only realize that the senses have been fully awake when ( the controlling process of?) thought comes in. the 'heightened' state has already gone. Now ( if and ?) when thought is aware of its own limitation, then it is broken through. To realize that is to actually see that thought has no place in that movement...

In what I know by experience, by the way k for me has found the right words here "heightened excellence of the senses" as this is exactly what happens, when this happens, at the very beginning of it , thought sees and feel that something is is aware of that, for a few seconds thought is aware...then something x caught in weird goodness takes place and the control of the brain mind..this has happened to much more people that we can is just that many do not mention..
for practically 35 years I never mentioned , just to a few persons , why mention such moment...? the presence of the weird energy does not change the analyser is the fact I have lived, this is why out of more reasons I know that there is another process which is not analytical....the analyser just knows that it happened, in such moment it knows that it cannot have knows about the reality of bliss, of the otherness...and so what?? what good does it , if it does any ??

That is my point to say that, the weird Universal bliss is one thing, and the analytical sorrow of life is the constant fact of the analyser,whether mild if my drugs are very powerful (one could destroy the planet or himself as a drug to keep escaping) , whether very powerful if my drugs are not functioning much ...suffering which is "ignored" when most of us are pretending with strength: not me , I am great man!!

not buying this lie, I have seen many "strong" person killing themselves apparently out of the blue, surprising most as they looked happy out ,powerful full of energy etc etc behind the apparent joy of a successful life ,there was too a very sad condition...

it is the reality of our "analytical" lives and if what i see for me is right this is meant to happen in order to say : "you are wrong" first, and secondly to force the analyser to stay where it must stay ..

this arrogant and criminal analyser, must bow before its suffering, which at this stage is still a wrong position that it must take, then it eventually becomes right only when this bowing stops because suffering and the analyser are one single item, the analysing brings suffering it could well be in its nature, that is my view here.....mine included of course less those time in bliss and hen sorrow is left alone, which brings from time to time its own calm and quietness but as no direct line with the weird bliss, until again as when young, I found again the way to drown into sorrow as a catalyst..without knowing that this would work...and bring to the surface what is unconscious for the too limited analyser...

this is forcing the unity to be a fact, it by passes the duality of the analyser,turns on the other process or whatever it is in fact ...that why in my view suffering is a vital "tool" in our lives...if not the analyser would keep its ways..yet here imagine a second that suffering is not...would I go insane , would i go to war ? would I steal others? would I torture them ? I say not at all...and this I am sure of it..
If anyone ask me again : and so what ?

We were not meant to stay as we are now and at least for some centuries, yet who knows all the past of mankind...I do not trust any official on that, we are clearly meant to go beyond the analyser's a leaving cert subject the marks of our species right now are zero to "zonkee" one hundred...

and so what ? we may keep trying to ignore the suffering felt by the analyser, when it is its condition, there are plenty drugs for that...then in 2 billion years man's life will be the exact same as 5000 years ago, as right now , if we are still there...

limitation as such does not seem to be a problem..why would it be a problem ?? one problem out of many more is in the sense perceived after if discovered ,that for example it is creating by its limitation an unconscious zone in the brain and this unconscious zone is where secrets motives, unsolved problems and much more are hidden and stored but very much "alive" ,so alive that this is mainly what is driving us, like I think that I am reaching the top of the world when in fact I am just running away...the analyser is not aware of that in normal life as we live..
Mentioning all that here is not showing off , it can't be as it shows me how wrong I usually am but not all the time in my own life, apart from X moments; so that would eventually in fact add more sorrow to go back into that than bringing any goodness to play the man who had some k's like experiences..just to say !

John Raica wrote:
PJ: The search is for the end (for the 'finality' of it?) .

K: Of course, of course. But to realize that there is no end—do you realize what it means? To realize that there is no end is to enter into something called 'love'. Love has no end. I may 'love' my wife—she dies or I die, but the thing called 'love' goes on; it has no end. So, how do you 'read' the Book? When you come to this really deep point, namely, that this book has no end and no beginning, you realize that you 'are' the book. This does not mean that 'you' become eternal, but that Life as this Movement has no end. It is then the universe. It is then the 'Cosmos . It is then the 'whole thing'.
If someone 'heard' all this— someone who was serious, of course—would it all sound so extraordinarily 'wild'? But what I am saying is not 'wild'. It is 'logical' and very clear and can be stated in Sorbonne, Harvard or in Delhi, it will 'hold water' ...

Well ,before such time it seems that a big event of some sort must occur first..we are now far too wrong..far too deep in the darkness of the analyser..and if K is right and I guess he is very much if there is no personal brain mind but a global one unless my taste for yellow and yours for green, then we actually are in the position of someone ready to commit a suicide in order to try to again run away...

so far suffering has no yet played its function before to be mastered...its symptom property as well as its catalyst properties have to be rediscovered...

let us say that all what is said about suffering ( I know I promised not to mention here, not possible it is) is not right...

then..what you seem up to John remains a last chance to go into all that...

Dan ...........

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Sat, 23 May 2015 #4
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

PJ: There is, within it all, a sense of ‘I exist’.

K: That’s the whole point. (With emphasis) You don’t realize that the 'psyche' is that.

PJ: Yes, that’s essentially the nature of the problem.

K : You think that the 'psyche' (the 'self'?) is something other than a conditioned state. You think that there is something in you—in the brain or somewhere—which is 'timeless', which is God, which is this, which is that, and that if only you can reach that, everything will be all right. That’s part of your ( cultural?) conditioning. Because you are uncertain, because you are confused, God or the highest principle or some kind of conviction gives you safety, protection, certainty. That’s all.

Dan: Yes, as she says, I think and feel that I am something other than a "conditioned state", something other than a bundle of dead memories...but an insight, just a glimpse into the truth of this is immense: that one has never seen oneself as BEING the conditioned psyche, BEING the "movement of becoming", "time-thought" etc., seen, not as something one HAS, but something one IS...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 24 May 2015.

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Sun, 24 May 2015 #5
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

paul daniel wrote:

What remains of this analyser if those hints of self pride and self
congratulations are seen for what they
are ?

Really...nothing much, Dan; the K text
just posted above is a brilliant
lesson in this regard. So, actually a
new 'Book of Life' is in the making...

Dan: totally agreed John..down below is my own sum...
thanks for bringing that here...Pupul is definitively my cup of tea ..;-)

K: Are you asking whether there is or there can be a space without end, an eternity outside time within the human brain? I’d like to distinguish between the 'brain' and the 'mind'. Can the brain realize the truth as to whether there is Eternity or not? That’s the question, right?

PJ: Yes.

K: Now, how do you begin to feel your way into this really fundamental question? Whether man's (consciousness) is bound to time forever or whether the brain can realize itself in a state of eternity, is a question that has been asked for thousands of years. And that is the question we’re asking too.

PJ: The brain is a material thing and for centuries the operation of the brain has ( predominantly?) been the operation of thought.

K: That is what we are saying, namely that the whole movement of the brain—at least that ( 'known'?) part of the brain which has been used—is conditioned by thought, and thought is always limited and therefore it is conditioned to (accept and work in?) conflict and must create divisions.

Dan : instead of conditioning, for my own sake I say set up or now this: thought is always limited .Thought is programmed by set up to conflictual situations yes/no created by the division me/ the etc etc..its programming is divisive as a need, otherwise there is no analysing, and not any so called living creatures at all, is what I see..

K: The mind is a wholly different dimension which has no contact with that part of the brain which has been functioning as an instrument of thought and as long as that part of the brain remains in that area there is no entire communication with the mind. So, when that conditioning is not (active?) , then that 'mind' which is totally on a different dimension, communicates with the brain and acts (intelligently) using thought.

PJ: Thought is a product of time. In a sense, thought is time.

K: That’s it, that’s the real point. So, were do you start ?

K: Let’s put it this way : thought (the thinking capacity?) is the chief instrument we have. Thousands of years of various efforts and actions have not only made that instrument dull, but that instrument has also reached the end of its tether because 'thought-time' is limited, conditioned, divided, and in a perpetual state of turmoil. Now, can that 'end'? That’s the question.

K: I understand. Are you asking: The pain of thousands years and centuries—the pain of loneliness, sorrow, grief; the agony, the anxiety and all that—is that separate from the ‘me’ who feels it?

K: The 'present' is the whole past and the future : the 'me' with all the memories of a thousand years, and those thousand years are being modified all the time. All that is the ‘now’—the present.
And you actually observe (become aware of this inner?) 'fact' that the 'present' is the whole movement of time and thought. You, actually, see the truth of that. You have an insight, a perception, into the fact that the ‘now’ is ( encapsulating?) all time and thought.

PJ: Does that perception emanate from the brain?

K: That perception is an insight which has nothing to do with time and thought.

K: Let’s be clear. The brain is conditioned ( to work within?) this 'time-thought' ( process ?) . As long as that ( self-programming?) conditioning remains, insight is not possible. You may have 'occasional insights' into something, but not 'pure insight', which means the comprehension of the 'wholeness' of things, a perception of completeness. Therefore that insight is part of that ( known-free?) brain which is ( living?) in a different dimension. That’s all I’m saying.

Dan: Again instead of conditioned I'd rather say for myself programmed

so now it is: The brain is programmed to work within this 'time-thought' process . As long as that program remains the only one active , insight is not possible.

this for me implies another program X or capacity Y to be activated.

K: You can see it politically, religiously. All through the world it is a fact that time and thought, in their activity, have wrought havoc in the world. That’s a fact.

K: Wait, wait. When it really, actually, 'listens', and there is this quietness that is not induced, then there is insight. I don’t have to explain in ten different ways the limitation of thought. It is so.

K: There is no-thing. The 'psyche' is a ( self-motivated?) bundle of memories, and those memories are 'dead'. They operate, function in us, but they are the outcome of past experiences, which have gone. 'I' am a movement of memories. Now, if I have an insight that 'there is nothing' ( worth keeping?) , then ‘I’ don’t exist.

Dan: nevertheless if you remove this bundle of memories, there is no analysing possible, no one to read or write here as the body could not sustain itself..I had the obvious fact-proof of that when my father had a stroke, he lost some memories so capacities..alone he was totally unable to survive...the past, memories ,analysing are so vital too...

K(Recap:)K I’d like to come back to the fact that all one’s education, all one’s past experience and knowledge, is a movement in becoming—both inwardly and outwardly. becoming is ( sustaining?) itself through the accumulation of memory (as well as 'property'?) —more and more and more memories which constitute knowledge. Now, as long as that movement exists, there is fear of 'being nothing' (and/or having nothing?) . But when one has an insight that there is no-thing, when one really sees the fallacy, the illusion of becoming—which is endless time-thought and conflict—then there is an ending of that. That is, the ending of the movement which is the ( self-identified?) 'psyche', which is time-thought. The ending of that is to be no-thing'.
This no-thing then contains the whole universe, the entire world of compassion. Compassion is no-thing. And, therefore, that No-thingness is supreme intelligence. That’s all there is. I don’t know if I’m conveying this.

Dan: For myself in this becoming movement, I see a movement of escaping too...but so far I do not know how they interact together or even if it is just one movement that thought does not perceive as such ,again due to its limitation..

K: So, why are human beings—just ordinary, intelligent human beings— frightened of 'being nothing', frightened to see that they really are verbal illusions, that they are nothing but 'dead' memories? That’s a fact. I don’t like to think I’m just nothing but memories, but the truth is that I 'am' memories. If I understand the whole movement of memory, which is time-thought, and see the fact that as long as there is this movement, there must be endless conflict, struggle, pain. And when there is an insight into that, 'no-thing' means something entirely different. That ‘no-thing’ is the Present, and it’s not a ‘varying’ present.

Dan: it seems to me that that no-thing mentioned here is within the other process nature, the other process ,as lived, does not analyse, does not separate, does not give value, is not hierarchical then the body-mind is penetrating-penetrated both ways with the Universe ( this is really how it feels), the cosmos as k says; a process which has many capacities, one is to be a both way connection to the universe,fact for me, another one is a tool to take care of all what is wrong with us, using what we wrongly call sorrow as a warning of error and as a catalyst having as it wishes an effect on the turning on of this other value given, no hierarchy...mankind problems solved, past ones as well as hen they occur, because problems will always keep occurring of course, but now we can solve them ..

K: It isn’t that one day it’s this, and the next day it is different. That ( inner) 'no-thing' (-ness) is no time. Therefore it’s not ('me'?) ending one day, and being (the same?) another day. You see, if one goes into this, there must be no shadow of 'time' and 'thought'. You see, Pupul, that after all is real 'meditation'. That’s what sunya means in Sanskrit. The actual fact is that we are ‘nothing’ except words and options and judgements. I mean, all that is a petty affair, and we’ve made our lives petty. So, we have to grasp, to understand, that in ( being?) 'nothing' is all the world contained—not the pain and the anxiety which are all so small.
So, having listened to all this, what is your comprehension? What is it you realize? If you could put it into words, Pupul, it would be rather good. What is it that you, and those who are going to listen to all this what do you capture, realize? Do you see the 'immensity' of all this?

PJ: It’s really an 'ending' of the
psychological nature of the self

K: Yes.

PJ: Because that is becoming.

Dan: yes indeed..I see here as well the ending not for good of course of the self leadership,as it must remain because it is vital ; again, I still see escaping within becoming or the opposite..Yet as stated I do not know about how intricate they are...What I mean is, have I not started to run away from childhood ? Not aware of that movement which is pain, I live with it ignoring this fact ??

K: Wait a minute, Pupulji. Do you say, ‘By Jove, I’ve got it. I’ve got the perfume of it’?

PJ: Sir, don’t ask me that question.

K: Why? PJ: Because anything I say would sound... As you were speaking there was (that) Immensity.

K: There was that. I could feel it, you could. There was the 'tension' of that, but is it temporary—for the moment, for a second—and it’s gone, and then is there once again the whole business of remembering it, capturing it, inviting (waiting for ) it?

K: Now, why haven’t they pursued that? You see, even the most intelligent of them, even the most religious devotee has pursued some 'structure', and not the 'feeling' of Religion, the feeling of the Divine, the sense of something Sacred. Why haven’t they pursued denying the ‘me’? . What they have done is to deny the (reality of this?) world—which one cannot—and they have ended up only making a mess of their own lives.

K: Yes, and mankind is 'me', and ‘me’ is this endless misery. So, if you want to end misery, end the ‘me’.

Dan: yes...has "me" the capacity within itself to make a vital step renouncing to its leadership all powerful and knowledgeable as it sees itself, even for a second..? I say yes it has, the pressure of wrongness creating a painful symptom which must absolutely be solved is for that purpose
If this is a factual point, then we have "something" which is there to help us through such "door" is not in any book, any reading....and I see that there must be the possibility it can be handled by any human must be universally accessible by all of us, if not, then war is our I go and get weapons right now!! I know this is not our I won't buy guns..

K: I said, ‘It’s possible only through insight’, and then we went into it as we’ve gone into it now. You see, nobody is * willing to 'listen' to this in its entirety. They listen partially. They agree, in the sense, they go together up to a certain point and stop there. If man really says, ‘There must be peace in the world, therefore, I must live peacefully’, then there will be peace in the world. But man does everything that is the opposite of that. He continues with his ambition, his arrogance, his silly, petty fears and all that. So, we have reduced the 'vastness' of all this to our petty little reactions. And so we live such 'petty' lives. This applies to everyone—from the highest to the lowest.

Dan: I see here the direct link of one movement starting in the brain mind and bringing peace on earth, peace has to be a natural fact within oneself...and the analyser whose life is to be divided in order to analyse which is vital for physical life, does not have in its programming the capacity to do such thing like bringing peace, not its work, as it is surely not at peace with itself, its work it to be choosy ,always choosy ..yes and no with an entity who is right,always right..such "censor" spends its life time eliminating and the illusion of a me being always right...this program has no connection with others, and lives with itself only...if this is all what we have for us..there our definitive ending if not far anymore now..hurray !!
We know that it is not all what we have ...

PJ: What is Sound to you, sir?

K: Sound is the ( silent vibration of the?) tree. Take music : pure Indian chanting, Rig Vedic chanting or the Gregorian chants, they are extraordinarily close together. Then, you listen to the sound of the waves, the sound of strong wind among the trees, the 'sound' of the person whom you have lived with for many years; you get used to all this. But if you don’t get used to all this, then Sound has an extraordinary meaning. Then you hear everything afresh. Say, for instance, you tell me that 'time-thought' is the whole (mental?) movement of man’s life; therefore limited. Now, you have communicated to me a simple fact, and if I listen to it without the sound of the words. I’ve captured the depth of that statement, and I can’t lose it. It isn’t that I’ve heard it now, and it’s gone when I go outside. I’ve listened to it in its entirety. That means, the sound has conveyed the fact that it is so. And what 'Is' so is absolute— always.

Dan ...........

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Tue, 26 May 2015 #6
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
So, Dan, the human brain got 'self-programmed' by our very evolution in terms of historical time -from one useful accumulation of experience to another. So, in terms of 'free' inner memory space, we're almost full...

Well John, I do not it not accumulation of informations of all sorts rather than self programmed...the program, the analytical one as far as I understand anything is there from the beginning...the other capacity seems to be there too from the beginning of what we are goes far back in our past..we are totally stuck, not me and some if not many, by this idea of so called evolution....but, any tree remains a tree, even if it is a seed, the seed is the tree....

almost full, well I don't know .I mean that I never thought about would make sense that we have reach some limits....

John Raica wrote:
The complexity is that the brain is 'naturally' deleting some memory to make place for new significant experiences to be stored, but the ' core memory ' is never questioned, let alone 'exposed' or 'deleted'..

by the core memory I guess you include what is unconscious for the analyser?? yet totally operational..the real hidden "me"..

John Raica wrote:
So, it has structured itself as a central 'controlling' process-or in the K terminology, the 'observer'. and, as any 'artificial intelligence' it can write its own 'programmes' and follow them up or it can 'run' other people's programmes and...follow them up. Computer-wise it is ridiculously simple. Human-wise it got extremely complex and notoriously 'sticky' due to the 'identification' or 'strong-attachment' psycho-process. So much for the 'bad news'...

Well John let us for once or twice or more not agree here, I do not see as you do...not a problem at all I say .
The observer for me is there from the beginning as a vital necessity to analyser no life form is my view, as we human define life forms.. the program is there too from scratch, well this is what I can make conclusions, methods, etc etc which are not programs , but conclusions, ideas etc from which I do things .. conclusions made by using the analytical program where is to be found an analyser which knows.

complex and sticky for sure I agree.Identification I do not know as I don't get that notion, or fact if it is a fact. Attachment ? well, is not that any conclusion ,desire, negation,method,program, will, hope etc is at the same time its reaching ,giving yes this sense of attachment , the reaching of it being dependant on the root idea from which I base my action or reaction....What I mean her more clearly is this: has this attachment , dependence, something to see with the known and the unknown again ??

John Raica wrote:
Anyway the good news is that a new human consciousness is emerging and a living proof is even this new thread of 'lost and found pages from the book of life' which is...practically and effortlessly writing itself...

writing itself, yes that quite true I think....if so we were meant to be under some sort of goodness of what life is,as part of it and not as apart from it, as this is exactly what we seem to be up to, can you imagine all the carbon's atom deciding to live their own life apart from the whole , that would mean the end of all matter......

all his was possibly meant to happen for us under a sort of "protection", a "protection" which cannot be sought as a separate unite...which is what we are now..for a while..

clearly a disaster, yet of course as an ex marketing expert and sales person I can turn anything "wrong" into a must have it..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 26 May 2015.

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Wed, 27 May 2015 #7
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

as we were talking about meditation , the quote of the day is helping us.

So, then, what do we mean by understanding? Understanding means giving right significance, right valuation, to all things.
To be ignorant is to give wrong values; the very nature of stupidity is the lack of comprehension of right values.

So, understanding comes into being when there are right values, when right values are established. And how is one to establish right values - the right value of property, the right value of relationship, the right value of ideas?

For the right values to come into being, you must understand the thinker, must you not? If I don't understand the thinker, which is myself, what I choose has no meaning, that is, if I don't know myself, then my action, my thought, have no foundation whatsoever.

So, self-knowledge is the beginning of meditation - not the knowledge that you pick up from my books, from authorities, from gurus, but the knowledge that comes into being through self-inquiry, which is self-awareness.

Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without self-knowledge there is no meditation. Because, if I don't understand the ways of my thoughts, of my feelings, if I don't understand my motives, my desires, my demands, my pursuit of patterns of action, which are ideas - I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking; and the thinker who merely asks, prays, or excludes, without understanding himself, must inevitably end in confusion, in illusion.

Dan ...........

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Wed, 27 May 2015 #8
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John..I just saw your very last post when posting this one..I go back to this last post of yours then after..out of interest.

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

..What I mean here more clearly is this: has this attachment , dependence, something to see with the known and the unknown again ??

John:I guess it does, Dan.

I just was very flippantly and briefly reading bits and pieces, in clear lies and bullshit + troll pro NWO ( old world disorder) on a French kind of political web site....and all of a sudden now here mentioning the known and the unknown..what is there in common with all that?

on one hand the actual political-economical reality of fight,division and violence,killing as usual today, some dying of starvation, lack of water, etc etc etc, and on the other hand : what are you talking about ? the unknown ? what is the point ? we need money !! wake up man, life is a fight...

for me no it is not...I refuse I must inquire in all this..

I leave that insanity but do not forget it, in fact I am constantly aware of it since very young, such ways nearly destroyed my life...was I really caring for others or just caring for my own life ?? So easy to self write and play the part of the good guy is not it ?? Me can very well again be very well hiding behind caring for others,in fact it could well be having only fear for himself, this is not easy to find out, to be sure of it..

anyway that is superficially the way it is for me, was I "built up" that way seemingly interested? in the global state of the planet? ( or in mine only in fact ?) this is why I never agree to say that our world had succeeded in practical matters, for me it has not succeeded in practical is a disaster..yet for some voluntary blind winners , they may say that we are so fantastic....not !!!

When I come back to the times before I realised that letting sorrow effect doing its work is THE right thing to "do"...I was really destroyed by man's global attitude about subjects like competition...which is a myth, like the best which is a myth , surrounded by those 2 myths we would necessarily then have the best possible on earth, obviously that is a lie...but before to be destroyed by all the murders, and violence , I know that in fact I was destroyed by my own no life..

But all this has already become far too analytical for me...stop now. This is being caught in choice self concern, empty of any goodness and bliss.

it is possible to write about that all life...and 10 000 years later nothing has radically changed..

so the known ,unknown....

John Raica wrote:
Once identified or strongly attached to the 'observer' you are mentally functioning by default in the field of the known. So then, it is the whole field of the 'known' (of which 'you' are part) looking at the 'unknown'. But then, this is the very nature of duality.

Is the known capable to look at what it does not thinking, the analytical program, the analyser, capable of such doing..This demands personal experimentation to have a glimpse into such question...
it seems to me that it can't do that...
Why is it fear ? I do not think so, and this is where having many right clues and facts ,,through revealing insights, of how my program is set up and functions becomes vital..

Because, if I don't understand the ways of my thoughts, of my feelings, if I don't understand my motives, my desires, my demands, my pursuit of patterns of action, which are ideas - I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking; and the thinker who merely asks, prays, or excludes, without understanding himself, must inevitably end in confusion, in illusion.

right, there is mass killing for our comfort..there is starvation, there is violence, there is sorrow, there is desire, there is hope, there is dream, there is rejection of death, there is ignorance , etc etc

k comes along and says that if I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking,meaning for me that this program only randomly functions on its own set up...and all this he says must inevitable end in confusion, in illusion....well more right than that seems quite impossible is not it ?

All this is heavy on me..I am unhappy and in sorrow...pretending not in order , I think , to avoid the final drowning that I am totally frightened of ..the thinker whose real state is unhappiness and suffering of all sorts, having no clue of this unknown problem states that it is now running for solutions about an unknown problem, which of course will be an outcome of its capacities, memories and desires , capacities which are far too limited, yet it it at this stage yet aware of is sure of its genius is not it...look at my big machine is not that a proof of it ??

what a heavy weight on one's shoulder..sounds a bit like the imaginary Jesus constantly falling under the weight of the cross, the cross being the symbol for suffering of course..Jesus being the symbol for the self of course...but we all know that :-))

Then of course Jesus as a symbol (probably,possibly, some say, a symbol stolen to very older civilisation and "stories" like pre Pharaohs' times, so without the keys to get it) on the cross as a symbol means that suffering wins, then......................both are not any more...or something like that..all 3 false religion seem to come from a time where man had not yet totally drowned into stupidity and greed.

John Raica wrote:
And out of this 'con-fused' recording it is trying to make for itself a 'realistic' model of the world it's living in. So this is the functioning in the 'known' where every new experience and incident is translated instantly in terms of what was previously known. We can see the two sides of this coin- on one hand, it is very safe and protective , on the other hand it is 'limiting' both our perceptions of life and our self-divisive attitude to it.

Yes , but is it really safe? we are kind of safe here( with policemen,soldiers, and cameras all over the place, this is not safety , it is fear) because the occidental armies are destroying to steal all over the place, this must not be forgotten I think ,safe for me in a self enclosed world means unsafe for many it is not safe is not protective, I do not agree with that...

Anyway back to the main thing here, I practically 100% live in the known..with very rare exceptions when i have no choice but i swiftly fix the unknown into something known...I think I fear the unknown but this is not right for me,and again this is where self knowledge is vital..what I see for me very clearly is that the analytical program, thought ,cannot analyse anything unknown , as analysing can be only made about something recorded...

When I meet something new so unknown I cannot analyse it right away when it occurs..we call it fear but it is not, it is only a technical matter in fact, a matter of competencies, so the incidence of this is terrible,because what happens is if only the analyser is at work, I never meet anything new, unknown at all...the analyser prevents anything unknown so new to be.....

this is definitively separating me from anything which is not me...such me is in pain.....such me is pain, but this is not understood at is is not even a catch 22 it is much worse

John Raica wrote:
Now, talking of the true role of 'meditation' in all this, it would be, for starters, to discriminate between these 'con-fused' ' recordings and their subsequent 'con-fused' brain processing, and further on to find what is 'true' and what is 'false' in the ( confusing ?) complexity of the world we're living

Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without self-knowledge there is no meditation. Because, if I don't understand the ways of my thoughts, of my feelings, if I don't understand my motives, my desires, my demands, my pursuit of patterns of action, which are ideas - I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking; and the thinker who merely asks, prays, or excludes, without understanding himself, must inevitably end in confusion, in illusion.

I think we are getting somewhere.


Dan ...........

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Wed, 27 May 2015 #9
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

talking about meditation , the quote of the day is helping us.

Indeed, Dan, only that it is helping us...'verbally' like the proverbial -(by now) 'menu' of a restaurant.

Well John, I should have been more precise , what I meant was: *it is helping us to understand what k means by meditation..and so to give a general meaning to a very dodgy and difficult word, as anything can be put behind it.. *

as I do not use this word for me unless someone does...I need a base of a meaning for it..
OK, had a break in the meantime and this came to me out of the blue...I think that I do something like what you call meditation since very young in fact...I won't extend on it..but around ten years old if not before but not sure , I was for example able to spend an entire day on my favourite rock here....lost within the mind , moving very little, that was deep etc etc as well as naturally going into subjects like: what am I really interested in my life and much more than that....whether by myself or others reading cards or whatever else it often-always was about some interest for what I would have called in those years : spirituality....
If so it is then a natural movement you talk about...

John Raica wrote:
Where's the verbal 'tour de passe-passe ? Did you notice the significant number of 'I's? 'If I don't understand the way of my thought, of my desires....'
Now the point is that this 'I'( the 'me') will never understand 'the way of his thoughts'...simply because it is a virtual mental entity, a self-isolating projection of the very process of thought it is trying to 'understand'.

Well I did not noticed because I use I most of the time myself ,because it is not a matter of words at all, not using I does not mean that it is gone, tamed, under control or has became intelligent ..k has created the habit to use it very little..that was his way...why not. Since the revealing of the functioning of thought has started for me by itself...I do not see any problem to use I at all..

In my way I practically consider that it may have triggered something not that good to some k's readers...anything k has mentioned in his life to others, so that he was able to report have been going through the I process too at some one can mention to others with words something which is not in the I memory or without the help of I...

Will "I" ever understand the ways of its thought ...well, as far as I know, the revealing of thought functioning happens,as it seems, for me, in a way totally out of control. It happens out of the blue without searching apparently as it of the side effect of leaving suffering be..this revealing seems to have some effects on thought the sense that it now becomes more aware of its own random stupid becomes less random, less ignorant etc etc

so when you say : Now the point is that this 'I'( the 'me') will never understand 'the way of his thoughts'

this seems factual yes. So this means that something else does that job..

John Raica wrote:
Donc, comme l'on dit, 'Un elephant, ça trompe énormement'- at least, this kind of 'elephant': So...what's the point of a 'verbal pointer' pointing to something illusory ? Wouldn't an insight based meditation help us see the truth in the false ?

Well k spend an entire life pointing mainly if not only ,apart in rare moments when he was writing to himself like in the notebook which was not meant so it is said to be published .. John, so we do here at our on "level" ....

this is why for me reading is not my favourite media and far from it..too much is missing in reading....what is beyond words brought by the intensity of the speaker,when deeply honest and factual of course, is missing...there is communication beyond words is "magic" !!!

that is the limitation of all dialogues when only the analyser is present ...K introduced the illusion that some of his listener were following him in his logical development, putting aside me, replacing it by we, us etc...but it seems that it did not work and that is ,for me , logical, because no one can walk another one life..

Again the way , for me , you or k or some others bring here meditation seems to be like a will to do so..and I do not go that way for offence at all..

meditation if I get it right is a side effect of something cannot be thought from will to do so..

but as you know I do not use this is far too vague for me..

To make it very short what I "do" is this: I consider as part of man's mental life to create problems , it is inevitable and they absolutely have to be solved and we must meet them to solve them, something which is not done , when a vast majority of X% of earth people do consider that as abnormal without even any single deep thought into it to be honest ,it is perceived as not natural, not my creation and so I try by all means to get rid of I would try to get rid of my shadow...then we get cuckoo, but this is then not surprising, the all life lived that way makes no sense at all...

for me in order to be solved the problem has to be detected as a problem first, then it has to be known down to its root..then one sees what happens..

we skip those first two steps all the time....

So there is a will to skip , I ignore-runaway-negate problems to concentrate on what I call solutions which by no means have any relation to the problems, the we create more problems over tons of unsolved and now unconscious away questions like society is rotten what do you propose ??? such question is wrong..

Behind what we fear most are many little helpers to take our hands..

help yourself then the heavens will help....well not a bad saying, it may be the case..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 27 May 2015 #10
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Right, Dan, my point is that the 'verbal' clarity of K's words may just cover up a far more intricate actuality .

Yes, it may, probably it does. At the intellectual logical and analytical level, often what he says seems really clear, often one may say: that is exactly what I feel.

John Raica wrote:
Somehow the same 'truth camouflaging' effect is going on in the videos, you see a 'loving-compassionate-intelligent' K and you say, 'yes, that's it', that's the 'thing to be', So we respond with love to love- for the time being- and when the video is over ( by the way, have you seen the K spectacular interview available on u-tube made by Andre Voisin for the French tv in 1972 ?) we're still back where we were before..

back to where we were before yes...meaning no radical "event", even tiny, of any sort took place.
Yes I have seen this video some time ago, not long ago...Andre Voisin has something for himself too in this talk, has not he?

John Raica wrote:
So the 'challenge of truth' is subtly becoming another 'value added' consumer product.

yes it seems to be so.

John Raica wrote:
So, again, it is all about a 'mirror reading' of our own inner actuality. And it's not really that we don't want to look within, but our inner perception is more often than not taken hostage by our 'all-knowing' mind

mirror reading is an another k saying I have problem with... the reality K or yourself and others find in this image and the reality of it behind the image is not perceived for me..

Nevertheless I give it a try..I get the all knowing mind taking our inner perception into hostage..then it simply does not work in fact, there is so no inner perception but the usual superficial analysing one if I get that right..

do you mean something like this, I take a personal example...

I have seen deeply twice in a deep insight(involuntary of course) that what I think as being a root problem like death ( mine ,the kids etc)is in fact dependant from something else hidden in the unconscious which is a formidable apparent craving for continuity, so fear of death was a step to the root problem ....then continuity now seems to be the root problem now; death is not the root problem, just a problem for this time being..

then again continuity as such was and is now perceived, when aware which is not all the time and far from it, as a natural outcome of the analytical process set up and functioning ; so now continuity is not THE root problem, it is a step to it, but the knowledge of the analytical now is eventually THE root problem , the "must be" discovered problem..

now is the set up and functioning of the analytical process a root problem ? so far I have not seen more behind the set up and functioning of the analytical process, because there is much to see and understand here as well as solving like all those unconscious problems now eventually discovered so solved..

well the exact sentence would be something like: the involuntary revealing of the analytical process set up and functioning, so far has not yet revealed more problems hidden behind ,will it ? I don't is it a root problem or is there again something behind as a problem...? I don't know..

so is this mirror effect something like that..fear of death would be mirroring craving for continuity as a problem, the craving for continuity would be mirroring the set up and function of the analytical process(thought) , the knowledge of some of the set up and functioning of the analytical process is not showing something behind but now inside it....

The possibility for the analytical set up and functioning to be a root problem becomes now a possibility....but it is still mirroring ? many sub problems created by this thought it is shown that there is no competing but there is no fear of the unknown but the impossibility for the known to live the unknown etc etc

Am I getting here what is meant by mirror effect or reading as you say..
if so it is going to bring you back to a source at some stage eventually..

go raibh maith agat..

that is Irish Celtic means : merci

the pronunciation is: go rave ma agat

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Wed, 27 May 2015.

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Thu, 28 May 2015 #11
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K's pedagogical position is that once you see the damage that our divisive attitude is doing in the outer world, you can come inwards with the in-tide and 'end' your own self-divisiveness. Which would be a totally OK solution...if we were just born yesterday. So maybe it could eventually work in a future 'brave new world'.

Thanks a lot for trying John, but this mirror effect does not speak to me..yet I understand what you mean for yourself about your own "doing", it tells me a bit why calling that mirror effect.....but for now I won't use that expression..which for me adds an unnecessary complexity,but that is me only...


Dan ...........

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Fri, 29 May 2015 #12
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
K: Is there an observation of this disorder without the 'centre'
becoming aware that there is disorder? If that can be solved, I have
solved the whole momentum of it. What is this 'order'? We said the
centre can never be aware of order. Then, what is that 'virtue' of which there is no
consciousness of being virtuous? Virtue is an 'integrated' state of mind where it is not conscious that it is virtuous. Therefore, it topples all the practices, all the sadhanas.
To see disorder not from a 'centre' is order. Of that Order 'you'
cannot be conscious of.

That is the last answer of the last quote...The word order as many other words had been shrunk by all politician and powers to a small but insane affair of violence imposed on people..
On the other hand disorder seems appropriate to factually sort of describe our societies...yet it is again a matter of opinion and lies...the winners even if walking on millions of dead bodies would say that they find that world very sane....
words can be really treacherous indeed...because they are empty by themselves, it is all about the intention behind....

Anyway when I see the word order used by k, for myself I see absence of disorder , like absence of conflict, violence, war, money , business, etc etc

the centre can never be in order says k, the centre being the analytical process and its little gizmo's which end up to always make all final decisions in choice, yes or no..
again to calculate ,evaluate any techniques to simply make it work needs such analysing no living creatures as we define living ....

what I find interesting is this:

Virtue is an 'integrated' state of mind where it is not conscious that it is virtuous.

integrated,already is another capacity that k mentions here...not analytical set up having its own programming and capacities independent from the analyser.

when I see myself as obviously not being virtuous, then there is nothing to do with it, apart from living that as a fact..exactly the same with sorrow....sorrow is the step to go into such is teaching us if I succeed without searching anything to find my ways through it
When I see myself as unhappy, then I stay with it....the analyser is not the good program about virtue, sorrow in one word about ending duality etc etc yet it must accept such thing without knowing that this is what it dos when rightly dealing with sorrow for the first time...a first time which will never come back in an innocent way as it happened...

the quest for happiness of course is so a clear indication that my state of mind is perceived as unhappy so in suffering ..that I have to stay with..

the analyser as turn itself into god.........a fantasy of itself...which is not true..

yet I introduce my own experiment that the centre, me, I know that something is there when the other process is turned on....but something else that the centre is now driving the brain mind and very soon all is entirely different....different in goodness...

What is left for me to do if this other process or those other processes have their own ways not related to the analyser ways?

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 29 May 2015.

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Fri, 29 May 2015 #13
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting question...Can I be aware that I am the past? By abstracting myself (using the words, the 'me' or the 'I') I can consider myself as though from a distance and think about 'myself'i.e., but to come into real contact with myself, me, when the 'power' of this 'center' is felt... this is the 'center'(call it what you will, put it in quotes etc.) that will kill, has killed, and is killing; to preserve, justify, defend itself and whatever it has become attached to. My feeling is that I take this idea of 'conditioning' a bit too lightly. But obviously, the only way that this situation of me as controller could possibly come to an end is through seeing that I AM the past, out of 'place'etc.; any effort made to 'negate', go beyond etc. would just be in pursuit of something 'greater':'love' compassion, intelligence...seeing seems the only 'way' and how does one come to see oneself as the 'past'? When I'm combing my hair?, when I'm writing here?, when I'm idly wondering about all this and the other 'spiritual' things that I've been involved with for so (too?) many years...?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 29 May 2015.

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Fri, 29 May 2015 #14
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

after all what was recently said...for my own life, I see the need of a catalyst of some sort because thinking cannot go beyond thinking, yet it tries hard ,exactly like my lawnmower cannot fly from Ireland to the north pole....well the lawnmower did not try yet..

A catalyst is triggering and participating somehow in a reaction, the result will not contain the catalyst in is vital to start and help with a reaction...

before any insight, revealing, meditation, kundalini, turning on of the other process etc etc etc something (must) happens to trigger somehow, such event!

For me , I mean not as a Universal truth, yet it could be,
what is found in our unhappy lives is such a trigger; to be so called unhappy is part of a process which has a purpose to bring us from a the known to somewhere else unknown.., it is practically a mean to awake some sort of guidance for us, when I sense what it is!!

to seek for happiness is again finding for more unhappiness, yet of course from time to time some rewards do work up to a point, the analyser has its own world and so its own rewards, always containing in all cases some suffering of some sort(fear ,anxiety,more cravings etc etc etc).......when thought is touching such trigger with its dirty hands, then nothing new, radical, different and in goodness never happens..the trigger does not there is no other process turned on, shitty life..yet pretending that all is fine of course..and for some it can be yes...this demands possession and means to do all what I want, and this is going to be stolen from others of course as alone I do not even survive...

well of course here I mention suffering-sorrow as a far I do not see any other..if there are some I do not see them....

In what I am saying , it is then somehow sorrow which decides instead of me as an analyser where to sorrow cannot be analytically solved, understood is the perfect trigger........

then at some stage,when having spent much time in this corner it can be perceived for what it is, a warning ,a signal that what I am up to is wrong, when it happens; we know sorrow because we do not listen, and we do not listen because we do not know about such warning, which can be perceived as a helper of some sort....

then each time something is wrong in my thoughts , this warning can eventually be operational,if I can sense it each time....

A question with no answer sought: let us say that I am not loony, what or who is guiding then ??

Dan ...........

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Sat, 30 May 2015 #15
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

I see the need of a catalyst of some sort because thinking cannot go beyond thinking, yet it tries hard ,exactly like my lawnmower cannot fly from Ireland to the north pole..

I would rather call it creating a 'right inner environment', Dan.

No problem if this formula speaks more for you of course.For now I really stick to catalyst because it is obvious for me, this catalyst will affect the brain the inner environment yes..

John Raica wrote:
Thought is indeed a fragmentary, partial activity: 'me' and 'my thoughts', 'me' trying to analyse and solve 'my problems',etc etc, and this is the major handicap that every 'thoughtful' human being was facing since antiquity. Some thinkers were aware of it, but - and this is where we are.

I find no problem to be outward orientated and inward at the same time, they both are meant to work together this is obviously clear for me as a matter of fact and of pure logic as is so well "organised" and efficiently self functioning that when this happens it all is so smooth...this says a lot why k possibly very often knowing that state of mind gives the impression that all is quite easy, as this is really what happens when the all brain mind is turned on...

we really easily can forget that this is about an entirely different dimension of the brain-mind that we are talking is not my actuality..there seems to be some necessary work going on...yet some important side effects are a I had to learn to live with this constant outer awareness of the outer, which is there even if I do not watch any news..the global outer madness is the same energy behind one's suffering, just amplified by the number of human.

As a guess only now, could it be that personally properly living sorrow sometimes connects to a global sorrow....that would fit k words...but this is just intellectual guess...

John: "most of them directed this same capacity of thinking outwardly for some more practical results"..

well is not this inevitable? thinking, analysing is practically only about the outward, the problem again being the absence of all our capacities....for vital practical reasons from birth with others help so young of course the analyser-thought has to always be first on any happening....and never learn to withdraw from its leadership position, whatever the reasons are...and throughout life it is always with other's help that there still are human...a fact which the powers are trying to hide, but no one is forced to be utterly blind is not it? it is really a will to be blind..

John Raica wrote:
So, as I'm seeing it, some 'self-exposure' and 'energy integration' work is required at this point in time. Both are not common activities that the average 'knowledgeable' person would not care to consider except as you say, when a major crisis, 'sorrow' or 'death' are knocking at the door. Can these be looked at as 'catalysts' or 'process quickeners' ? Yes, in the sense that they bring this inner psycho-process of 'thought-time' to a critical point where a major change has to be made.

Yes I mean that....but before to reach such extreme, the catalyst that I see within suffering is there from the beginning under a form which is not perceived, this is to be learnt through a-many major crisis....

we have been brought up that life is suffering, competition, fight, reaching ,success, achieving, war etc we blindly and vaguely accept suffering as a fate, inevitable, part of life like the sun and the sky...when it is here,my view, to bring a brain-mind to its total turning on of all capacities when the brain physically reaches its full can be seen that it is reaching its physical so psychical potential when for example the fear of death becomes a reality so hen I want things to last , when I seek for happiness because I am in fact unhappy etc...all this creating great trouble and discontentment, this is precisely when this ruthless society we have crated or support definitively brings into the sad game of man, the opportunity to try to forget about all that, by definitively persuading us that life is competitive which is not at all a fact , I have deeply seen that, and achieving etc
we have many signs when young enough that the time has come to go sort of within and when this time has come, the powers in charge gave us a mean to mentally run away when we should be staying with all our mental troubled time...

this huge mistake ends up in heavy sorrow , in war , and in the possible premature end of a species..honestly what is the point to keep that failed "experiment" last longer ?? talking to the Universe here ;-)..why do I say failed included for myself ? because when this huge immense bliss had been lived deeply you just know it...yet in this dark descriptive and apparent gloomy mood...the thing is that tomorrow remains unknown,each moment contains a radical possibility to rally change...after all , it is not lost in fact..

John Raica wrote:
For many of us, K's teachings and/or his presence did play this role ( of inducing this feeling of urgency)- from where a possible subliminal dependency. But as K once put it in 'mechanistic' terms there has to be the right quality of fuel plus the 'spark' (of insight) in order for the engine to start working properly. So, the 'teachings' may offer a lot of 'sparks'- but the quality and the right amount of 'mind fuel' are left totally at our discretion...

exactly...the spark is needed...well, this is so remote from earning one's life is not it..earning one's life, that is so utterly stupid I think ..


Dan ...........

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Sat, 30 May 2015 #16
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The fact is that we are all inheriting a heavily materialistic culture...and before we know it, we're trapped in this collective struggle for survival. Kind of a sad psycho-heritage.

hello John,

the struggle for survival only comes because we refuse to cooperate, yet as there is no choice all what is produced is collective....then we are forced to be collective, when we just could do it voluntarily,but as in such case ,there is intelligence..the pyramidal society would be the outer this is the main work of those willing to be mentally in charged to keep us separated...not a hard job in fact..

John Raica wrote:
So, let's hope that here we're doing something in the right (non-sorrowful ?) direction. The real point in not in bringing up the spiritual virtues of sorrow, what is actually required -at least in my view- is to get out of this sad spiritual condition ( when and whether we can...)

Sorrow as a catalyst is apparently not a virtue but a tool, a mean get out of this sad condition is required yes absolutely, I keep insisting on what I know about that, which is : to solve sorrow,which is something I can't do, I must not try to solve sorrow,as such thinking or attempt will only bring an analytical option..then it will not be solved..

to know that sorrow must be solved is one thing ,which i find totally right, but in all cases , for me , it must only be lived so my analytical brain-mind must not be willing to solve it, and rather my analytical brain-mind must be defeated by sorrow....there is a moment I see when "I" really leaves sorrow alone...this has another vital side effect as then in such moment it is obvious that for some reasons the unconscious is not willing to solve sorrow as well..solving sorrow is a side effect of living it properly, it can't be a goal as such....

this is what I know by experience which keeps repeating itself from quite young in fact

so we seems to agree on most of it, just for me to attempt to solve sorrow does not work, it ill be a side effect of something else which freezes "me" as a leader of the brain mind when it sees its it has to be lived and not escaped which is what we all do all the time by all means...those means become insanity ...and war.

Dan ...........

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Sat, 30 May 2015 #17
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

B: The other way is easier. It gives something whereas this gives nothing.

Krishnamurti: This gives everything if you touch it.

B: But the other is easier.

Krishnamurti: You see I am terribly interested in how has the mind of Krishnamurti maintained this state of innocence?

P: You may have been an exception. Did you have a 'centre' to wipe away?

Krishnamurti: No.

I found this very interesting and have in the past: He said he never had this "center of darkness" like us and that as long as there is any "shadow of thnought" that we can not "touch" the "other". So as I have (am) more than a "shadow of thought", I have to take this "other" on faith that 'it' is there because he said so and implies that if one does not reach this in one's life, then one has really never lived. This is where the 'circus' begins. The 'search' for that which cannot' be found through 'search'; subtle, gross, etc. Like a 'Koan'. Why do I have 'faith' in what this man says is 'possible' for humanity when everything points in the opposite direction: more division, more killing, more poverty and misery etc. Do I take some part of it, his teaching, enough to buoy me along? If some person said to me :"you're problem is that you have not accepted Jesus,Allah, etc., into your heart. If you do your life will be beautiful and you will be with them after death..." Though that appeals somehow to many, it's too far out for me...but then what is this 'carrot' of the 'Other' that K speaks of that "gives everything if you touch it.." but you can't 'touch it' if you don't 'disappear'! This business gives one pause...and makes one wonder. All the traditions use 'time' to get to the 'goal'. K says 'time' is out where this is concerned in that 'time' is 'thought' and "anything that thought touches is not Real." Really quite a 'puzzle'...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 30 May 2015.

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Sun, 31 May 2015 #18
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

to solve sorrow, which is something I can't do, I must not try to solve sorrow,as such thinking or attempt will only bring an analytical option

John: Very true, Dan, 'I' the self conscious entity cannot solve this ages old problem of sorrow. One basic reason would be that this 'self-isolating ' inner attitude ( an attitude which also can ...'think' ?) is creating the premises for sorrow.

Yes, in what I sense, sorrow seems(is) embedded within this analytical self itself as a safe guard because of the inherent capacity of the analytical process which as such has no outer limits when it is about reaching all sort of goals,as we see in our societies; my view is that it is so embedded as it is(was) meant to be a guide line...a bit like an electrical fence is keeping the cows in the field where they have to be...sorrow when understood for what it is and so perceived was meant to play that fence, it does not do that anymore....that is one effect of sorrow as a warning of wrongness
for some reasons it does not produced what it was meant to produce any more...yet it is still there and not take it into account drives the species ruthless and insane, because of suffering which terribly hurts permanently ( consciously and-or unconsciously) and

What we are up to, simply does not exist, it is only a fantasy of the conceptual analyser the attempt again to run away from it so from what I deeply am.

John Raica wrote:
So I believe that there's a lot of wisdom in K's 'do nothing' about it- which becomes quite obvious when you realise that you are both its creator beneficiary. Again, this may represent a major qualitative jump in the evolution of human consciousness

Indeed. Nevertheless as you probably see it too, this is not enough.
To do nothing needs to develop much more because this is not something we naturally do any more, to do nothing.....the analyser always does something..about everything..

If I am insisting on that and I will keep doing it, it is because as you put it here, it seems( is) to be as you say a "major qualitative jump in the evolution of human consciousness".

Sounds arrogantly wow !!! when it is simple and a possibility for anyone so just a had saved me from constant hurts and brought so many side effects, like I see now the kundalini, the presence of this weird universal bliss, the partial solving of my main hurts, the involuntary discovering out of the blue of the analytical process functioning, I mean like looking at its programming itself.. etc etc ,then a life is back since..

This sorrow as a warning and a catalyst is still there, so I play by ear with it ...

I have not a single clue of what is next...I just passively use what is wrong when I am aware of its signal..which has to be left alone, or as you say when quoting k: do nothing with it, so it is free to exist and do whatever it has to do....

So at some stage what happens in my brain is that all what exist for the analyser is sorrowful only, out of being far too fed up with that and seeing no more escape when none has worked so far,"I" consciously make the choice to leave it alone "whatever happens in such moment , "I" is defeated !! sorrow is the winner would say the poor analyser, of this fight between me and me, me the winner versus me in sorrow then this is a fact, then "enjoy the ride", as you as a "I" are not in charge anymore...something happens right there, as soon as sorrow as a symptom is lived and not be honest I see difficult to mention what comes is far too swift, too fast , to be able to make a logical catalogue of the event...and this is fine by me.....because analysing has no capacity here ...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sun, 31 May 2015.

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Mon, 01 Jun 2015 #19
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Indeed, Dan, this is the general perception- that the 'thinker' , the conscious and educated 'me' is there to create some 'progressive' order, namely to kick out the inner (and outer) depression and sorrow and build a 'positive' inner (and outer) environment. And this mentality of an endless growth and progress is still largely spread all over the world inspite of some facts that may point to its downside.

for me so for you as i see what you say here, yes exactly, in our view so.
this is why whether it is right or not, we are conditioned to an expending big bang, from the worse to the very good, but what is this world expanding in? is a question no "specialist" would take, this is why there has to be so called evolution too, when for me it is change of which we clearly know nothing about the ultimate Origin of it, apart from so called "scientific" guesses giving the one doing that so many grants to follow every years because it simply suits the actual old world disorder re-baptised for the occasion new WO..words are so easy as in themselves they are empty, !! Old world disorder of this planet which says, yesterday it was all crap, today is good, but tomorrow will be here is a new religion..any idea based on tomorrow all will be fine is a trap and a lie...etc etc

Anyway, here we have a link with K, like what he talks about is now..not in a gradual tomorrow..

John Raica wrote:
In fact it is a strong self-sustained (un?)consciousness 'stream' ; and you can be within the stream and engage in its fierce competition for anything, or outside of it - for various reasons.

well yes.

John Raica wrote:
Now most of the second category are unfortunately feeling 'outcast', failures- meaning that they got kicked out of the 'winner team' but still got stuck in the same utilitaristic and self-comparing mentality.

so both are still caught in the belief of competition so of war, having no clue that competition brings war...this is so obvious when I go on political orientated websites where i see people having no clue of the direct link competition = business = money = hierarchy = utter poverty = war= destruction = stealing... etc etc..
but this is not only on political websites ;-))..and of course have no clue of what is competition, which is a side effect of the divisive functioning of the analytical mind and it is not about competition at all but about elimination, a mental outcome of choice..with a centre..

bottom line if you do not know the way you function, you have no clue about why and what you are up to..again k is right about that in my view...he is very much heavily insisting on self knowledge..a subject which amazingly was not of any interest AT ALL, before I find again purely incidentally a way to droned into sorrow as a catalyst ..but it is the subject which invited again there was no search for seems that definitively any search can only be, divisive, so, in conflict etc

so what you call meditation has to be be a factual happening then if this is in order to by pass any search..

John Raica wrote:
So technically speaking there is sorrow both inside and outside of that stream, but perhaps that those engaged in a competitive life style do not have the time nor the disposition to question the validity and/or the ethics of their life choices.

They have not a clue should I say! Competition, or rather elimination, takes all the brain-mind hostage of its needs, in other words the analyser blindly leads the game..

there is questioning( moaning only in fact) when loosing only...and such questioning is only because I do not even accept the rules of the game I am playing...when I loose.
It is not a deep questioning.Like the bank say: "we win it is for us , we loose it is for you people to pay"
..yet at their level they are the ones having the practically full control of the planet(not entirely yet..) so this option is included from the beginning, but when it comes to so called isolated ordinary people, this option of loosing is not even included as only winning is THE option...but all this is really so basic..
this suggest that those in charge are analytically speaking, less analytically "stupid"( more cunning) than "ordinary" people, and surely more greedy too....more ruthless as well etc difference is that at that level they cooperate..out of no choice...this is why the absolute need to keep the flock divided..with personal believes being the main way to do so, because this has a direct effect on each person , the main one being that I am simply lost in my own life, so when it comes to the collective one, of course it does not work, easy then for the master to shear the sheep...
Again there is of course a direct line between ignorance of what I deeply am ( how I function,what it is etc ..) , and the actual state of humans' societies..

John Raica wrote:
So, there are rather few people left who can afford to think and feel differently, and even for them things seem to be getting worse (before getting better ?) It is almost as if the mind finds itself in an 'after war' situation, ruins and destruction everywhere.

So I think that it is not a matter of affording....but of what and how one deeply feel about his own life, in order to do I see one necessary quality ( out of many others): to be totally excessive, not stay in the middle of the road so in k's words not being mediocre, so having clear definite choices of some strong refusal ...with no other option accepted!! ..

not a matter of affording like it is when we had practically no money and no job nevertheless it is when we travelled the most..transposed to a psychological level.
Is it getting worse..? Apparently yes it is, but i am not sure...the main media owned by the main banksters emphasises all that , now those hidden thieves and puppets show up everywhere when before they were hiding much more, but for me I knew somehow that it was the case since I am on this planet, so they are indeed doing their coming out in the obvious, because they now are trying the final strike...and in order to do so, the now have to openly walk ...

but all this are "only" logical consequences of each one failure to be awake multiplied by now 7 billions ish..if I may say so...ass it sounds a bit ???...well it will do for now...

again k is right: changing yourself etc etc

so that there is the global and the personal too and they are linked, something we are not part of anymore.
the personal I speak of is not the analyser personal...the analyser is just a tool yet of course it is vital to physically find means to live , but messing up with most of what it touches...with of course here and there things which relatively work...but when taking a whole picture of this planet for me if it does not is a many people again today are going to die for the comfort of the winners..

see again this brings us back right to the self functioning...when dividing me and the universe, when it chooses it always eliminates one possibility...down to our levels it means killing..

John Raica wrote:
Definitely not at all funny. In the late 40's Mr K was speaking ( especially to small groups in India) of a 'surrendering' of the self ( while still putting his own 'spin' on it- this should not take time) but with some hindsight we can see that it hasn't really worked- even a surrendering 'ego' may expect better times to come. In short, coming from that end, no pedagogical method seems to be of any practical help. However, a responsible perception of the global situation might bring the spiritual energy to jump-start the 'mind' engine

not at all funny yes indeed all levels.Yes it has not really work.
Better times after destruction as usual ,this is the proven best method of all leader always becoming pure insanity ?? Out of unknown suffering for me..I see the direct link ..

no pedagogical help right now is the " necessary" time of collapsing and falling, which can be short if??? for one person there is THE time to go through the door of suffering and is the same energy behind multiplied by X is of course because we keep refusing to leave sorrow alone as a catalyst, as this is view. Sorrow being me, when me says : "that is not me ,go away"!! does not work at all of course....I escape from me in fact, which is obviously absolutely impossible ....Me should not be that bad is my logical view, something else goes wrong...

your last words suit me John:

However, a responsible perception of the global situation might bring the spiritual energy to jump-start the 'mind' engine...

And the very last for k, from today’s quote:

So, the reason why I give so much importance and urgency to the psychology of the mind, is that the mind is the cause of all action; and without understanding that, merely to reform, to potter around, to trim the superficial actions, has very little meaning. We have done that for generations, and have brought about confusion, madness, and misery in the world. So, we have to go to the very root of the whole problem of existence, of consciousness, which is the 'I', the thinker; and without understanding the thinker and its activities, mere superficial social reforms have no significance - at least, not for the man who is very serious, very earnest.

Dan ...........

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Mon, 01 Jun 2015 #20
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
This 'K method' is working only in a 'time free' inner environment.

yes it is the need to paralyse somehow the dictatorship of the analyser caught in time...not a problem as such because that is the way it is functioning, it becomes a problem as this is enough enough to "live"..

John Raica wrote:
This does not mean that we kick 'time' out of the door, nor that we are taking a 'time out' from this endless process of thought-time, but in terms of 'inner'action, that there's no more time left for you to act- you do it now...or you don't.

yes , I like the way you put that in words, that speaks quite well for itself.

John Raica wrote:
And this is the radical difference with psycho-analysis, which is giving itself all the time in the world to end in an orderly way, one by one, all the 'psychic' garbage we have collected in one million years of 'Darwinian evolution'.

Absolutely, again well put in words in my view this clearly opens to "something"..


Dan ...........

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Mon, 01 Jun 2015 #21
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

Yes indeed "well put".

I have a feeling of frustration when I can't understand something that is being spoken of in this realm. As if I should understand everything. Now when it comes to quantum physics say, which I have tried (unsucessfully) to fathom, it's not a problem...I say I just don't have the 'brain' for it,e.g. But here with listening to K and the others, the 'desire' to understand, to get a 'result' results only in frustration. But seeing that the 'frustration' is the conflict of the 'I': not being able to get what it wants (self-calming?), becomes a 'signal' that one is 'asleep' is a 'reminder. That thought cannot "touch" that which is beyond itself.

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Tue, 02 Jun 2015 #22
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Krishnamurti: Therefore 'humility' is necessary : I know absolutely nothing , but I am not going to repeat anything which I haven't found myself. I know this is not the way. I do not want to 'know' anything more. That is all. The ( analysing?) door which I thought was real is not 'the' door. What happens later? If I do not move in that direction, I will find out.

Humility is impossible for me without having solved ,somehow, is of course a side effect of that and more.

I am interested in this : K: I do not want to 'know' anything more....

this is something I live, good , bad i have no clue but I refuse to analyse sorrow, fear, the intellect etc etc etc because I have non analytically seen that this brought suffering and I do not want to suffer!! Of course!! other words this means for me that having understood again and again how analysing is so dangerous, I do not even trust my own ones on many subjects now, this creates some sort of space by itself where non analytical events..(insight,visions, relief, etc etc etc) ...may take place as they wish....I have learnt not to be choosy about that, because it does not work at all, at least for me .

the usual analytical bla bla goes on, it is possible to have a space even when the analyser is at work, the distrust of it through experimenting so understanding is what does create such space, will does not create any space at all; one can now be able to listen to his own bla bla and at the same time not trust it..when the direct link analysing in wrong fields = suffering, is deeply seen once and more, not intellectually so, this is over...what is next ? k: I do not want to know anymore !!

this is not constant ,as there are so many years and tons of error to cure first of course.I mention what is unconscious here where is to be found a huge storage of unsolved problems of all sorts...most probably still self activated ...they have to be self "terminated" by the seeing of them ...

Interest in that too, K: What happens later? If I do not move in that direction ( analysing), I will find out.

analysing searches, the other process does not, its set up and activities are really different .........all this is so away from analysing-thinking,so from the observer-observed necessary duality activities in the right practical fields , is not it ??

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 02 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 02 Jun 2015 #23
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

K has spoken of myself as being similar in danger to a "snake" or a "precipice". I can understand about the latter two,since my brain reacts to their danger even before I am aware of them. And I can understand intellectually that I am dangerous in the sense of my basic 'divisiveness' (me and you etc.), also my personal beliefs, pursuits, violence, competitiveness etc. but I cannot even 'imagine' how I could see myself, as I am: a relatively decent, relatively intelligent, relatively compassionate fellow as so posing a threat to humanity that my brain would recoil, as from the cliff and the snake, just from a good glimpse at me; (that which my very brain has wrought and nurtured) where would such an'insight',that seems so improbable, come from that would have the requisite energy to put myself (thought-time) in my proper place? As I say, I can't even imagine it....

In thinking a bit more on this, I can see how IF one saw oneself as "the World", truly saw and felt the truth of that: that one IS the World, then this situation of the 'I' would be one of 'darkness', darkness in the sense that it has cut itself off, and imprisoned the brain in a prison of its own making. And out of that alienation, with its sorrow, confusion, fear and conflict, great harm has, and is being done. Then when one has had that realisation that one is truly the world: all of humanity,i.e., the reappearance of this separative, limited 'I' in one's psyche, with all its memories, attachments, sense of 'individuality' etc. WOULD BE like a snake in the corner of the how is one to see with that clarity if one is actually the world, not theoretically, but actually see and feel that one IS the world? How can one see that one is the "world" when one is still attached, when one still has a sense of one's individuality, one's 'me'ness..? You can't. You can take it on 'faith', but....

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 02 Jun 2015.

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Tue, 02 Jun 2015 #24
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 14 posts in this forum Offline

Maybe it's because even a relatively decent person still keeps the strength of the egoic system in place. And that as a person awakens they weaken that structure.

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Tue, 02 Jun 2015 #25
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks, I added a bit more to my post while you were writing I think.

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Wed, 03 Jun 2015 #26
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

paul daniel wrote:

Humility is impossible for me without having solved ,somehow, is of course a side effect of that and more

I guess, Dan, it's about the spiritual 'humility' of not knowing. In fact if you 'see' the truth about anything, the fact of 'knowing it' can be rather redundant- inwardly, of course. So, for instance, not knowing anything about my suffering might represent a liberating perceptive act.

I consciously and precisely meant what I wrote ,John..anyway not a big deal, humility nearly being for me one of those unnecessary words..

to see a truth about anything only creates a new situation which never was before...a new situation in which a previous discovery being now a knowledge prevents you from doing again and again the same mistake, so any new situation includes a knowledge in the background everywhere the analyser is still concerned...without knowledge no survival, and I would be very much tempted to add no bliss as well..because it is not about a conflict between analysing and the other process that it is about but about a cooperation between both..

For me not knowing anything about suffering can make you caught for life in it for sure..this is our world.

I know the knowing position about suffering and the not knowing anything at all about suffering..the second one brings to the path of suicide-war, the first one to the beginning of liberation from it..I am happy I did not listen to k in my case and again I exactly mean that!

you know I never discovered anything for my life by reading k, nevertheless all what I have seen so far is in k words..but really not in the obvious!

I do not listen to him on many points,yet it is not voluntary actually, that is the way reading k is for me; his saying about knowing particularly, I think he knows by experience what he is trying to say about, but he says it very poorly for the reader , too poorly that it does not bring any clarity but confusion to end up with such statement: the man who says he knows does not the man who does not know does not know would I no one knwos anything..well???

...I saw that being blindly repeated as an absolute truth.

when I say that I know things about suffering ,by experience and by analysing back those moments too, ways with suffering I consciously mean it and for sure it is not because I say that I know that I know nothing, this is so absurd for me, that it is indeed a very dangerous I must say more now, when there was this kundalini, this full turning on of the other process so of the brain and the drowning into suffering , in such moment yes who cares about knowing yes...but this is because the bliss is there meaning that the whole brain is turned on, it is not at all a usual thinking moment of long as the analyser is concerned knowledge there is...and the knowledge brought, which can be so helpful if true, by experimentation brings me right to the door where again I have to leave all knowledge as a "me" to live suffering as a catalyst ..If I remove this no analytical knowledge because I read that in K and i trust him....this is a disaster..!!! I already be would have killed myself if I had done such nonsense..

I see one thing, k does not mention at all when he talks in or of moments when the other process is turned on or when it is more analytical analysing of those events so when the other process is NOT turned on...

for the reader, as I was caught in this splendid catch 22 which drove me insane,thanks to k poor conveying and to my own blindness, this induces a confusion one will not understand...if one has never lived a deep blissful moment with the weird presence of the "otherness" ...and if one does not know about suffering but as everyone is just attempting to escape may just go cuckoo....

that was another reason why I wanted to write my experiences after having re discovered about suffering as a catalyst for my own life...something is missing in k words..not as such , but in the way he tend to speak only from the other shore as he put it, when we are on the suffering side of when he has all those long talks trying to bring the listener to the other sounds like if the listeners already would have solved sorrow even only partially which is already something so important and know about the unconscious which the is not unconscious, when it is not the case at all for me, so obvious,with Bohm and Pupul included my favourite talks..

K did not know how all this happened to him....did he say once, that was some 3 or 4 month ago on the essential k....this must be bear in mind...well I think...

Well I usually do not mention that....I do not want to put emphasis on it...but this "not knowing" really gets on my ,now this is behind..

John:As you may have noticed too, the
'knowing' is producing its own
collateral problems- I believe it was
K who said that 'knowledge goes hand
in hand with ignorance'

for me John, this is a formidable and dangerous useless catch 22...totally dismissing knowledge is as a big mistake as the opposite...for me..knowledge has its right place without knowledge so me doing the first step in the right direction, there never will be any bliss in man's life...

without knowledge there simply is no life as we define just needs to find its place then the other process may be turned on..

it is all about the missing capacities....

Dan ...........

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Wed, 03 Jun 2015 #27
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 116 posts in this forum Offline

So not 'having' this deep total insight; this realisation of the Truth, "enlightenment" whatever word you want to use...not having this would be the 'root' of all man's sorrow. I have not had it and therefore I am in sorrow? Some of the voices on these forums say that they have found this state of mind, and express a kind of joy when describing their understanding, their 'freedom from the known'...I hear K saying to the ones he spoke with: " I will show it to you" but from what I see they never 'listen'...nor do I if his word:"listening" means this total revolution of the brain.

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #28
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
P1: We need to understand what is this 'full insight'? Is it a (spiritual?) experience?

K: No, you cannot say it is an 'experience'; it is not that 'I experience' something; it is 'real'.

John Raica wrote:
K: Somebody comes along and tells me a story. I listen with rapt attention. It is a beautiful story, lovely language, style; I am enraptured by it, I listen to the story, and it goes on and on day after day, and I am consumed by the story. So the story ends by saying, 'It stops here.'

P5: The 'story' (of mankind) doesn't end for us; the problem continues.

K: Your friend here says, I will tell you in what manner you can have the 'whole insight'. Will you listen to him? So I am telling you, insight is not dependent on knowledge, it is not dependent on any form of remembrance, and it is not dependent on time. enlightenment' is not dependent on time. When 'time' memory, remembrance, causation don't exist ; then you have a complete insight.

John Raica wrote:
Again, Dan, the difference would be between a 'partial' and a 'total' insight. So, this is how I'm seeing it here and now: To discover something 'new' in any area and attach it to the previous knowledge is definitely a refreshing event for our 'knowledgeable' mind , but the 'thinker' core is still there - which is just great for a brain giving priority to the 'safe' aspect of living in this world - like anything may happen in the world around but your 'house' is still there. So the new insight brought in some fresh air. Nothing wrong with this 'logic' except that it has a time-limit (old age, death etc)..

Hello John

first about insight, we are here in fact in K's garden of words...It is about defining what is behind such word....not an easy task....defining a chair is fine, defining insight is something else of course..we all see that .

so it is simple in words; to sum it up in my way I say that the analytical program does not interfere where it shall not do such thing( to be defined), then something else as another process is turned on, rather may turn itself on , and this other process does not look at the past to create a future loaded with cravings and hopes and the all usual shebang we all know seconds after seconds ...
I question about causation used by k there no causation at all, or does he means no analytical causation...? this is not clear for is there no causation behind the existence of a flower and of its perfume ? this is something I am ignorant of.

Partial and total insight...well I am not keen at this stage to make such a difference, in my own life..because I would not be sure about that. For me there is what may be called insight, before reading k I was just describing a "happening" to eventual listeners, not using a generic word...

it is just fine, there are ways as usual probably, not a way .

John: To discover something 'new' in any area and attach it to the previous knowledge is definitely a refreshing event for our 'knowledgeable' mind , but the 'thinker' core is still there*

Dan: well, this is very dodgy point...

John: which is just great for a brain giving priority to the 'safe' aspect of living in this world - like anything may happen in the world around but your 'house' is still there. So the new insight brought in some fresh air. Nothing wrong with this 'logic' except that it has a time-limit ...

Dan: If i may John, I do not see your point seem to have a search-quest for eradicating the analyser..but without the analyser we are dead !!! why using refreshing here ? Is it sarcastic ?

A brain that is so called searching for safety, I say so called because my own understanding of all that signals me that there is no quest for safety but a quest as an absolute need to stay within the known brought by the analyser....
it is simply because when it is about the unknown the analyser just cannot is very possible that there is no search as such for safety yet the poor limited analyser of course believes so, again it may wrong and only be about the known where the analyser can work and the unknown where it cannot....

Therefore the analyser is bocking anything calls that safety..but it is not for me, it is that it is trying to stay in its field where it can work, and so is transforming anything into.....itself...

would "mother nature" built up such a wrong program , bringing us to kill each other for safety? If that was the case, no need to even think..we just need guns that is all...and the neocons and all fascist-dictator before them are just right then.

so as this brings many questions, I bring in next post an early writing by k from 1927, about establishing a purpose

Dan ...........

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #29
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline


Bombay, India 1927

Human beings forget the goal to which their life leads; hence there is always confusion. Because of the lack of foresight of the thing they desire, they are confused and they are lost, and it is for this reason that you must establish for yourself whither you are going, what your purpose is in life. And when once you have established this for yourself -not by the authority of another, not by the authority of sacred books, nor by the authority of individuals but by a clear-cut ideal- and have definitely decided to follow it, you will attain liberation. And if you have been able to establish such an ideal, then that ideal will become part of your own life and you will walk towards that goal, all things becoming easy to you.

Now, you will see wherever you look -beyond the seas, in America or in Europe- you will find that there is confusion of purpose. The people of the West are seeking happiness, as everyone else in the world is seeking, but they are seeking it in material things. Because they have lost the purpose, because they have forgotten the goal, they are lost in the things that do not matter. If, for example, you desire to go to a particular house and you know the path that leads to that particular house, and you know where the house exists and its exact address, the path to that house will be quite easy and you will go there, avoiding pitfalls without any difficulty. When you know the goal, you will get there, time being of no account. But if you did not know to what house you were going, and what was your goal, you would get lost in the bye paths, in the narrow streets, and in the wayside houses. But when once you have established for yourself the goal towards which you are tending, all things, which lead you away from that goal will have no attraction for you. It is for this that men struggle through their days, during their years and during their many lives. It is, to me, that Kingdom of Happiness which gives Liberation. We are like the river that at the beginning is small but grows as she flows towards the sea, in search of liberation. On her way she accumulates many experiences, feeds many banks and many trees and quenches the thirst of many people and gathers many waters; and slowly, through many places and through the progress of time, she reaches the sea, where she finds her liberation. But when entering that sea of liberation, she brings her experiences of sorrow, of delight and of joy and gives to the sea a part of them. That is the purpose of a human being. When once you have found that and established that for yourself, then life becomes very easy, life becomes very simple and also comprehensive, and all the religious shackles and complications, all religious superstitions vanish, and you remain as steadfast as the sky, looking and trying to learn from everywhere. To attain Liberation has been my aim for many years together. Because when once you have tasted that Liberation you will really be able to help. Then you are beyond the limits of birth and death. Because you have entered into that Kingdom of Liberation and Happiness, you will become one of the great helpers of the world.

Thus the purpose of human life is to accumulate experience and from that experience to learn wisdom, and from that wisdom to hear the voice of intuition, which will lead us towards the goal which belongs to everyone, irrespective of caste, race or religion, irrespective of forms of worship of any God. So you see, if you have that view, if you have such a purpose in life, then all the restricting ideas of your religious thought, all your narrowness will vanish and you will become like the sun, giving light to all those who seek it. And there lies the beauty of life, which is seen in the bright running waters. We must therefore come out of our stagnation and go into the stream of Liberation.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 #30
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 322 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Not at all, Dan, do please check out the latest posted text. There is an actual spiritual 'renewal' involved in the 'psychological ending' of the 'analyser'. But again, this is all in the field of non-duality..

I am not sure that there is such real separation,spiritual ,non spiritual, only my view of course, nevertheless I understand the practicality to do order to analyse.

For me there is no ending of the analyser whether physically or psychologically, but the turning on of a non analytical capacity "somehow" so the relative freezing of the analysing process where it should go, this "somehow", well I have not a single clue about that !!! this includes insights..for me I call that vision..a liberating factor from unsolved problems ,errors etc etc

I always found curious that k is often using the word liberation without mentioning liberation from what he talks about..

like here in recent post: To attain Liberation has been my aim for many years together....or this : "It is, to me, that Kingdom of Happiness which gives Liberation.""

what i get is this: freedom from thought as the leader of the brain mind is my aim, the other process-capacity which then turns itself on , is what provokes such liberation from the analyser-thought..etc ........

...the analyser will remain dual, me looking as a centre at everything; that is precisely what it vitally needs to do to be able to survive physically, and it starts with a "me" physically properly moving within the environment, "me" is different than the environment, we have here a necessary beginning of duality..

if there was no me and the environment I could not even walk, the necessary computerised analysing of this would not take place..then I would not be here to bla bla bla on this computer...that is its set up...
a vital well needed one for ALL practical aspects of life when a choice is needed;

when the other capacity is turned on and the weird bliss is eventually present , then of course the analyser is still there for the analytical needs to be done, it sees the weird bliss coming up, then what happens is too much for the analyser and it immediately withdraws from its leader position, duality leading the brain has ended as long as the other process is turned on, its leadership comes backs immediately when the other process is turned off ..

the analyser must stay so that crossing the road and not get killing, meeting people, ordering anything, talking to people etc etc can take place, all this is of course tasks of the analyser-analysed...when this other capacity is turned on there really are two entirely different processes at work together each one in its proper field...which is our main problem as we usually only have one turned on, this was not meant to be may we guess...I know that..

..what is left in the memory of such moment can then be objectively as much as possible analysed if needed or sought ....for oneself..when trying to say something to is another difficult matter...

Nevertheless all this remains analysing.....which is fine too,

Dan ...........

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