Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sat, 23 May 2020 #61
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
As an example, here is a simple problem: I need to feed 20 people, which I’m not used to doing.

You know, the funny thing is I actually had to do this once. Part of the meal was brown rice. I thought: "Easy. I usually use two cups of water with one cup of brown rice. I'll just maintain the two to one ratio and increase the amounts." Oops! When cooking more rice you need to use less water! Had I consulted the authority of the internet, I could have avoided the mushy mess that took forever to cook down.

Anyway, this is not to dispute anything from your post. Just reaffirming that when it comes to practical knowledge, consulting an authority can be helpful.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #62
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Anyway, this is not to dispute anything from your post. Just reaffirming that when it comes to practical knowledge, consulting an authority can be helpful.

Indeed. I need to consult an authority if my computer gets a virus. Or consult a medical authority if I myself get a flu or other virus. But can we come back to the other issue...the suffering in 'me'...which is my problem. Why can't the authority of experts...of the enlightened ones or the priests or the experts in psychology or psychotherapy...help me there? Why can't their insights into the problem of human suffering help me to understand my own suffering? Or can they help in some manner like when I watch a K video or listen to a talk?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #63
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why can't the authority of experts...of the enlightened ones or the priests or the experts in psychology or psychotherapy...help me there?

Yes, it is important to be crystal clear about this. If we're not careful we just learn a K rule instead of really understanding: K says, "Don't follow a spiritual teacher or guru." If I just say, "Duh, okay. K said it so it must be true," then I'm just learning a rule and taking him as an authority. So I need to be crystal clear on why a guru is problematic.

To me the answer is freedom. We're not talking about the known, about knowledge that can be imparted, by some teacher or some book. We're talking about freedom from the known, about the unknown, about something that can only be discovered for oneself. Ultimately I have to look for myself, without a guru, without K, without anyone.

Also, we're talking about freedom from authority, which is nearly the same as freedom from the known. Listening to some guru will slant me according to his teaching. Reading some spiritual book will orient me to the view in the book. But you need complete freedom. You need to look anew, without any view, or preconceived idea. You need to look freely, for yourself.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Also, we're talking about freedom from authority, which is nearly the same as freedom from the known. Listening to some guru will slant me according to his teaching. Reading some spiritual book will orient me to the view in the book. But you need complete freedom. You need to look anew, without any view, or preconceived idea. You need to look freely, for yourself.

I was more concerned with the issue of suffering. Why can't someone like K help me to understand my suffering, be it fear, or some other misery that I'm experiencing? K says authority is of no help when I want to understand myself who suffers...perhaps suffers terribly. Let's be clear why K's insights can't help me here. Huguette above said that insight is needed...not knowledge. "The problems which arise in relationship are engendered by the divided mind and so cannot be solved by that same divided mind. No?" So when I rely upon the authority of another...even a K or the Buddha or some other 'enlightened' one, I'm not looking at the problem but am divided from it? I'm relying on the words of another to try to eliminate the problem....I'm resisting it?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #65
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why can't someone like K help me to understand my suffering?

-

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Why Spiritual Teachers?:
The guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge: it comes when you are aware of yourself in relationship. To be, is to be related; not to understand relationship is misery, strife.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge: it comes when you are aware of yourself in relationship.

Yet he gave talks for over 50 years. So perhaps he thought he could help the poor sufferers such as most of us.

Let it Be

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #67
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

How many times do we have to be told: Watch yourself in relationship, to people, to property, to ideas. Pay attention to what is.

Once you do, do you have to be told again and again?

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Once you do, do you have to be told again and again?

Obviously K felt so. Otherwise he would have quit talking long before he reached his 80th birthday. Watching oneself without judging or condemning is something that human beings are simply unable to do apparently. Other than a very tiny minority such as yourself, perhaps.

Let it Be

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #69
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 99 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why can't someone like K help me to understand my suffering, be it fear, or some other misery that I'm experiencing?

Tom, I understand when you say there is no awareness or self knowledge or freedom to start with the process. That's why in my view suffering does play a role, but only as long as it's concretely experienced as something that's enforced on us and from which there is no way out and involving us to the extent of questioning the very basis of our existence with all doors to any future shut.

Maybe if we are serious with K in listening to his videos/talks, it could act as a voice of conscience and therefore honestly putting us into such situations where there is a surrender and implosion of our psychological apparatus with an insight leading to having a choicelessness in observation, the very freedom to look and 'awareness' so to speak coming from that. Having said that, that's not my experience with listening to K, but the former one through a suffering regardless.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

natarajan shivan wrote:
involving us to the extent of questioning the very basis of our existence with all doors to any future shut.

That's been my experience as well. When all exit doors are shut we may find that we actually remain with 'what is'. And look.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #71
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Other than a very tiny minority such as yourself, perhaps.

I'm certainly not in some enlightened minority. But I have to say I don't watch K videos or read K books much now. When someone references a video here I try to watch it but sometimes it can be hard to get through. I mostly like the oddities, the parts of the videos when things get a bit weird or are different.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #72
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

Or I might decide that I SHOULD take “action” in order to become happy. But this is like gambling at the casino. There is no insight or understanding in that, only desire. There is nothing transformative in such thought. There are no meaningful calculations and measures for producing happiness, as there are in the case of preparing a meal.

Clive: Many people would not agree with this. They would look to change their circumstances, thinking new 'improved' circumstances will produce happiness. But this is to confuse happiness with pleasure, isn't it? To some extent pleasure can be sought by thought – although there is always the sting of pain in its tail. I think what you are meaning by happiness is peace, an absence of fear and conflict, freedom, no?

The problems which arise in relationship are engendered by the divided mind and so cannot be solved by that same divided mind. No?

Clive: this is not so clear at the time, when the problems arise. In fact I think we are conditioned to do precisely that, divide the mind, as an attempt to solve psychological problems – the problem and the solver of the problem.

One has had little insights, and so it is seen that there is such a thing as insight. The quality of insight is understood - that it is only insight, not thought, not effort, which can solve new problems.

Clive: As I read your words, I see this is very true, Huguette. It is always insight that actually solves problems.

That is a profound thing, and the seeing of the beauty of it brings tears.

Where does this insight come from?

: : : :

Clive: Thank you for this very comprehensive reply, Huguette. And it is clear that thought cannot act to fundamentally transform the mind, take away its basic problems of conflict, fear, suffering. When the 'me' arises attempting to this, that 'me' can be seen for what it is – some variety of desire. We can desire transformation until the end of our lives, but that is just sterile longing, it does not constitute actual action.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why can't someone like K help me to understand my suffering, be it fear, or some other misery that I'm experiencing?

Because the only way to understand suffering is through suffering. ie, to suffer. Without trying to move away from it. Obviously no one can do that suffering for you.

(Strangely, Christians believe otherwise. They claim Jesus suffered for them, on the cross, and so "redeemed" believers from their own suffering. This is a very odd concept, and evidently not true - Christians still suffer)

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #74
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
That's why in my view suffering does play a role, but only as long as it's concretely experienced as something that's enforced on us and from which there is no way out and involving us to the extent of questioning the very basis of our existence with all doors to any future shut.

Natarajan, I have also come to see the absolute necessity of suffering, as an action that can bring about real change. but why do you say:

" only as long as it's concretely experienced as something that's enforced on us "

Do you mean no one in his right mind would not try to escape from suffering, if there was the slightest possibility?

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #75
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at 62:
...can we come back to the other issue...the suffering in 'me'...which is my problem. Why can't the authority of experts...of the enlightened ones or the priests or the experts in psychology or psychotherapy...help me there?

I think there are a few different things to consider here.

As you point out, experts can tell you the steps you need to take to fix or avoid certain problems, with your computer for example. No understanding is needed there - you do what they say and it works --- if they're trustworthy.

But to understand the mind, to end suffering, and so on, one cannot ACCEPT authority. Self-understanding is needed, nothing else will do. In the field of computers etc., one can act on another’s authority, without understanding. But in the field of suffering, acting without understanding only engenders more suffering. To act on the basis of authority - of what the love doctor, the cult leader, the relationship expert, the politician, tradition, and so on, say to do - only causes more harm and suffering, as I see it.

Someone who understands can point things out, and that can help me to understand but only if I take the action of LOOKING, if I have the interest and intensity demanded for understanding. One can only understand for oneself, perceive directly, the root of suffering and action. Someone else's understanding cannot MAKE you understand. Nor can understanding be accumulated in memory and routinely “applied”. Understanding must be present and fresh in the moment. There must be awareness in the moment. So authority is of no help.

Self-understanding can transform action and relationship, as I see it. That’s not insignificant. By transforming relationship, understanding can change “the world”, "the world" being the global network of relationship. Understanding is the only thing which CAN "change the world", and this transformation is sorely needed.

In the light of understanding, suffering - both physical and psychological - is faced with equanimity, which lessens suffering. But I don't know if self-understanding can totally ends suffering.

The particular mind does want an end to its particular suffering, but it also thirsts for ultimate Truth. Doesn’t it? Because even if my personal suffering ends, does it end completely when I see the suffering of others, including of animals? And not all suffering is caused by man's selfishness. There are also natural calamities.

So it seems to me that the ending of personal suffering is still not the ultimate transformation yearned for by heart and mind. Isn’t something more needed for that than self-understanding? That something is insight, it seems to me. Insight either happens or it does not. It can be a small insight regarding a limited field, like Archimedes' and Isaac Newton's insights. And there might also be an insight where “all” is revealed, insight into the ultimate Truth. Or there might not be.

This is how things look to me. I might be wrong.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Huguette: Someone who understands can point things out, and that can help me to understand but only if I take the action of LOOKING, if I have the interest and intensity demanded for understanding.

Yes. That's my point in regards to the 'teaching' that I made in a couple of posts above or in another thread here. K felt it was worthwhile to spend his whole life giving talks and dialogs. He obviously felt he could help...help those with a passion to understand.

I want to reply to Clive here as well:
Tom Paine wrote:

Why can't someone like K help me to understand my suffering, be it fear, or some other misery that I'm experiencing?

Clive: Because the only way to understand suffering is through suffering. ie, to suffer. Without trying to move away from it. Obviously no one can do that suffering for you.

Cannot one such as K point out the manner in which beliefs and conclusions lead to conflict and suffering for example? Do you not find value in this? And don't we learn when we listen to a talk by K? Learn about the causes of suffering and conflict in ourselves and in the world?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 24 May 2020.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #77
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

One of my questions was this: Is the end of our personal suffering the end of our discontent? Is the ending of our personal suffering the total ending of our suffering? To me, it is not. There is something more that is yearned for - the ending of all suffering. Perhaps (and perhaps not) that can only be revealed by insight, which might come or not. There are pointers which can help with seeing the roots of suffering - if I look. There are pointers which can help end psychological effort, conflict, contradiction - if I look, with interest, intensity, alertness. But pointers are not authority. (I think you used the word “authority” by mistake.)

But there are no pointers which can help with total insight, as I see it. Perhaps self-understanding prepares the soil for insight, and perhaps it doesn’t. I don't know.

I realize you weren’t asking about insight.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #78
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Learn about the causes of suffering and conflict in ourselves and in the world?

Is there a misunderstanding with words like 'learn' and 'understand'? Aren't they, in the way K. has used them, pointing to a 'moving with','being with', 'staying with', etc. rather than the ordinary use of those words, i.e. 'learning about', 'coming to an understanding about', etc?...Another person can 'help' me escape from suffering and conflict through methods, beliefs, rites, rationalizations... but no one can 'help' me stay in the face of suffering, anger, jealousy, greed, ambition, conflict, nothing but the realization (insight?) that every other 'movement' is an escape. The value of the 'staying with' (choice-less awareness) can be pointed out (as K. has done) but the action, the "gathering of energy" (the 'grace'?) that is needed for that 'miracle' to take place, no one can 'do', no one can give,...it seems.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #79
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
But there are no pointers which can help with total insight, as I see it. Perhaps self-understanding prepares the soil for insight, and perhaps it doesn’t. I don't know.

I don't know either. But self understanding comes from insight, yes...not total insight perhaps...but insight, none the less. It's beyond knowable isn't it, that which brings insight and understanding....that which is the source of all...the unknown? So we do our best...all of us who are serious about this....about ending suffering...about the transformation that K spoke of.

Let it Be

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #80
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Perhaps self-understanding prepares the soil for insight, and perhaps it doesn’t. I don't know.

Thinking about this as a situation of 'imbalance'. Thought is out of balance as regards the sensations, the body...It has 'taken over' rather than being just another part, a significant part as you pointed out, in its ability to plan and execute. But only in the sphere where its ingenuity is called for, not in psychological 'becoming, i.e. Doesn't the understanding of thought/thinker bring about a kind of 'balancing', minimizing its importance, its domination of the psyche? "Slowing it down" as mentioned in the QOTD? It may be that man's problems result from this lop-sidedness...And that a rebalancing and insight are connected?

or maybe insight is the re-harnonizing of the different parts of us, bringing about an activation of unused parts of the brain...is that a better way to look at it? Not then, a 'mystical' occurrence at all but a 'blossoming'? A maturation?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 24 May 2020.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #81
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at 79:
But self understanding comes from insight...

I'm not sure about that. I see insight as a revelation which comes out of "nowhere" in a flash. I don't see understanding that way. Not saying I'm right but there is a distinction for me.

I mentioned Archimedes' famoush flash of insight. He clearly understood the need and significance of measuring the volume of objects in certain contexts. But the answer to the problem posed by an object having an irregular shape came to him in a flash of insight. And it's not clear that the understanding he had of volume and measure cleared the way for that insight. Perhaps what clears the way for insight (if anything) is a question that arises spontaneously, the question itself being a sort of insight?

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #82
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
the need and significance of measuring the volume of objects in certain contexts.

So what is the need and significance that we are faced with? To realize that the 'thinker', the 'sufferer', is not separate from the thought, the suffering? After thousands of years of their 'separation' as being accepted as true, it is now upon us to see to see the falseness of that acceptance? No?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #83
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Cannot one such as K point out the manner in which beliefs and conclusions lead to conflict and suffering for example? Do you not find value in this? And don't we learn when we listen to a talk by K? Learn about the causes of suffering and conflict in ourselves and in the world?

Tom, have we turned 'the end of suffering' into some sort of goal, some objective to pursue? Likewise 'the end of conflict'? For many years I have felt what was important was - is- to end conflict. I think I supported myself in this idea by K saying conflict is a wastage of energy, and we need that energy for transformation.

But now I find myself questioning all goals. Are they not all projected by the self, in its search for security and permanence?

(Of course it is very easy to substitute these goals with another goal, that of 'having no goals', but that trick of the mind is easily seen through)'

I think I have been encouraged in this line of questioning by reading some very early K talks, the 1930's and even 20's. I gather from some of your posts you have been doing that also? I have been meaning to start a threat on some of the things that K said in those days. But, in short, as you probably know, he said things like: "the ending of suffering lies IN suffering". And I do begin to have a faint inkling of this. And that implies suffering is not something to try to overcome.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #84
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
And that implies suffering is not something to try to overcome.

'Suffering' trying to overcome suffering is suffering, isn't it? Doing anything about so called 'suffering' is conflict, rejection, of with 'what is': this so-called 'suffering'. I am 'suffering' and I want to get back to 'not-suffering' as soon as possible. Why not stay with this feeling of 'suffering' and see what it's all about? It may be nothing. But if I run away, I'll never know. It may be that "the ending of suffering lies IN suffering"

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #85
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote at 82:
So what is the need and significance that we are faced with? To realize that the 'thinker', the 'sufferer', is not separate from the thought, the suffering? After thousands of years of their 'separation' as being accepted as true, it is now upon us to see to see the falseness of that acceptance? No?

Dan,

As I see it, there is the need for awareness, and awareness reveals significance. Can I decide that I “need” to realize something (for example that the thinker is the thought) if I DON’T realize that it is so? On what basis can I determine that there is a NEED TO REALIZE anything?

Where there is the yearning to understand life, conflict, sorrow, relationship, and so on, can the need for awareness BE denied? Without awareness - i.e. observing the inner and outer realities firsthand - the only OTHER approach to understanding life is through ideas, theories, belief, analysis, and so on, isn't it? Is there another approach? And hasn't the human being already gone through all that - ideas, beliefs, theories - over and over? So it is seen that no form of thought provides understanding of the significance of fear, sorrow, action, relationship and so on.

So the need for awareness is seen - to be aware of the environment and also oneself inwardly as one really is: my anger, fear, ambition, conceit, jealousy, and so on; my contradictions; my actions and reactions, and the actual motives and causes underlying them.

Then to be aware of the fact of contradiction, fear, anger, conceit, seeking pleasure, and so on, is to understand the significance of contradiction, fear etc. in my life.

There is also the need to question everything and not accept the dictates of authority - inner authority, society’s authority, religious authority, the authority of experts or politicians. And so on.

Then the mind can begin to glimpse the significance of the thinker not being separate from the thought, of the explainer being the explanation, the analyzer being the analysis. It is seen that it is emotion - fear, greed, anger, and so on - which engenders the thinker. That without emotion, there is no thinker separate from thought. It is seen that the thinker looking at fear etc. and "explaining" it, is an illusion. The thought, the explanation, the analysis has no significance at all for understanding life as it is.

What HAS significance is fear, confusion, hate, greed, and so on. The explanations do not end fear. So where there is fear, what has significance is fear itself, not the explanation. Fear has significance where it is faced. The explanation is insignificant. The explanation changes nothing. Explaining fear is not facing fear.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #86
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Clive: Tom, have we turned 'the end of suffering' into some sort of goal, some objective to pursue? Likewise 'the end of conflict'? For many years I have felt what was important was - is- to end conflict. I think I supported myself in this idea by K saying conflict is a wastage of energy, and we need that energy for transformation.

Why would we want to understand conflict and suffering...in me, who K maintained is the world? Don’t you know? Don’t you look at the news? See the homelessness...the drug addiction..the alcoholics...the prostitutes? Mankind lives with immense suffering and violence, no? Can it be ended? Isn’t that what we all have come here to find out? If it can be ended? Or are we happy to maintain the status quo?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #87
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Don’t you know? Don’t you look at the news? ... Mankind lives with immense suffering and violence ... Can it be ended? ... Or are we happy to maintain the status quo?

One SEES the horrors and chaos in the world. Inwardly, one feels the pain of it, compassion. One is NOT happy to maintain the status quo. It’s not "either or", is it? One can see it, not be happy to maintain it, and yet be unable to change the world.

What can the mind which has been looking into this problem of horror and chaos in the world, the mind which has some understanding of its causes, actually DO? In the light of this awareness, what is right action? Becoming a crusader or a revolutionary? Endlessly keep looking for "the answer", going round and round in circles, psychologically? Close one’s heart and mind to it all and turn to the pursuit of pleasure, or some other kind of escape? Live in depression, bemoan "what is", curse myself and others?

These "actions" are all rooted in thought, and the mind sees the limits and dangers of thought. So what can the mind DO?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #88
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
What can the mind which has been looking into this problem of horror and chaos in the world, the mind which has some understanding of its causes, actually DO? In the light of this awareness, what is right action?

None of the following that you mention below:

Becoming a crusader or a revolutionary? Endlessly keep looking for "the answer", going round and round in circles, psychologically? Close one’s heart and mind to it all and turn to the pursuit of pleasure, or some other kind of escape? Live in depression, bemoan "what is", curse myself and others?

These "actions" are all rooted in thought, and the mind sees the limits and dangers of thought. So what can the mind DO?

I don't know. That's why I became interested in the teaching....which does not imply more thinking...more intellect...but rather deep interest and listening to ...or reading...of 'the teaching'. And observing oneself in relationship...in one's daily living. That's all one can do. We can learn about the human mind which has created this mad world that we are born into and must find a way to live in.

Let it Be

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #89
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
observing oneself in relationship...in one's daily living. That's all one can do.

One can also act. I observe myself yelling at my friend. I stop yelling at my friend. That's different from continuing to yell. Stopping is absolutely important. And it is not having an ideal. It is seeing and stopping.

When I don't stop, my friend goes away hurt and angry and spreads the negativity to someone else. It ripples around the world. When I stop, there is an end to the violence. And non-violence can begin to ripple around the world.

I have to see FULLY. I have to see that my yelling involves righteous justification. I have to see that I am defending a self image I have. And everything else going on. Only then will there be ending naturally and something else quite different.

K doesn't say choicelessly observe the misery you create and continue spreading conflict. He says when there is choiceless awareness, there is moment to moment transformation.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #90
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette, thank you very much for #58. Excelent!

Still reading the other many messages over the last two days!

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