Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Being free of fear


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Mon, 18 May 2020 #91
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
So understanding what is gain and loss seems to be a key to this problem.

It seems to be all the same problem, fear, pleasure, etc, all products of a 'confused. mind...that we have carried over from the practical: the real animal 'fears' of physical survival as well as the real 'pleasures': well-being of food, shelter, warmth...The root of our confusion is that we view the world around us in a self-centered way when the actuality is, that there is no center anywhere. The reality scenario that our 'confused' mind has created, is one which places us at the center, not physically, that isn't the problem, it is the psychological belief that there is a 'me' at the center that needs to be protected, that must 'survive', that must grow, have pleasure, avoid pain, be constantly occupied, etc. It is that illusion that seems to me to be the source of the problem. The conditioned belief that this illusory 'me' or self image, or 'I' has 'value' and 'significance'...and must not be 'lost'.

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Mon, 18 May 2020 #92
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
So understanding what is gain and loss seems to be a key to this problem

Yes. But is there something even more fundamental than that? What are the roots of that "nothing to gain or loose"? Is it not the supposed entity that thinks that it HAS something to gain or loose?

In the thread above, we have made various statements about fear. I am asking, how do they translate into ACTION? Because if they do not, then the statements are useless, are they not? Unless those statements reflect some deep seeing?

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #93
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But is there something even more fundamental than that? What are the roots of that "nothing to gain or loose"? Is it not the supposed entity that thinks that it HAS something to gain or loose?

Clive, it's for me the realization that, aside from what the false 'entity' thinks,,, in the universe of which we are a part, there is no such 'thing' as 'loss or gain'. It's a human concept of thought. It's a human invention. Stars come and go, as do worlds. We invented 'loss and gain'. And we suffer that invention.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 19 May 2020.

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #94
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

No Clive, it's the realization that, aside from what the false 'entity' thinks,,, in the universe of which we are a part, there is no such 'thing' as 'loss or gain'. It's a human concept of thought. It's a human invention. Stars come and go, as do worlds. We invented 'loss and gain'. And we suffer that invention.

But that is what I meant, Dan. This supposed entity is only a concept of thought. It has no real existence, and so all that it experiences, or thinks it experiences, likewise has no real existence.

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #95
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But that is what I meant, Dan. This supposed entity is only a concept of thought. It has no real existence, and so all that it experiences, or thinks it experiences, likewise has no real existence.

Yes I'm sorry that I missed what you were saying.

As thought appears in me, I saw this morning in a glimpse, that it had to arise from somewhere. Where does each thought come from? It would have to be from the knowledge stored in the brain cells, right? So if that is the case then it is always from the past. That would bear out what K said: "there is no such thing as a 'new' thought" (or something like that). Do our thoughts 'weave' their own reality? Each one of us with a different reality? A different 'self'? All based on images, memories from the past? And accepted generally as 'truth'? How could there not be massive confusion?

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #96
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But that is what I meant, Dan. This supposed entity is only a concept of thought. It has no real existence, and so all that it experiences, or thinks it experiences, likewise has no real existence.

Not sure I understand what you and Dan are getting at. Do you mean that when I smell the rose, that the rose has no real existence? No...of course, that would be absurd. So, why are my experiences not real? My fear is not real? My desire? Is it because my experiences are based upon thought? Not the direct perception of the rose, for example, but my memory of it...my thoughts and ideas about it?

Let it Be

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #97
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We invented 'loss and gain'. And we suffer that invention.

This is probably true, Dan. But I doubt we can really see this fact that we invented it.

We consider, for instance, happiness as a gain. Something to be achieved, gained. Obviously, the search for happiness is pleasure, which is different from the nice sensation of smelling a flower.

The concept of gain and loss is so deeply rooted in me that it is very hard even thinking about that as something unreal.

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #98
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes. But is there something even more fundamental than that? What are the roots of that "nothing to gain or loose"? Is it not the supposed entity that thinks that it HAS something to gain or loose?

Clive, the question is: why does that entity think there is something to gain or loose?

Why is this false? How can I see this is false? This seems to be the very root of fear.

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #99
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
, why are my experiences not real? My fear is not real? My desire? Is it because my experiences are based upon thought?

Tom:

If I imagine something bad is going to happen, there is a reaction, disturbance, etc. and there is a feeling or emotion called 'fear'. Is that feeling 'real'? It is, in the sense that that is what's occurring in me. So one question is, why does one imagine negative things, negative images, etc. that 'scare' one? That whole process needs to be looked at, doesn't it?...Following on what I posted above; what is it that 'governs' the thoughts that arise in the brain? Anything? Is it that my thoughts have a kind of perimeter or pattern that they stay within? That they are governed in a certain way is interesting, isn't it? For example, someone's thought that is not governed and becomes more and more negative, frightening, etc. can result in suicide. So what does it mean to 'go beyond thought'? When there is an awareness of what thought is doing, that it is actually a material process, an awareness of the thoughts as they arise in one...that awareness throws a light on the thought/images and can 'head off' the spiraling multiplying images that result in fear, desire, pleasure, loneliness, anger, etc.

I recall K saying that thought itself (acting with intelligence?) is the only factor that can stop itself. (Clive asked if I had a reference for him saying that,I don't ) K also asked if "thought can become aware of itself? I bring all this in because it seems a very rich area to look into in oneself. If we're asleep to the arising of thought, it becomes (is) our reality?

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #100
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote #97:
The concept of gain and loss is so deeply rooted in me that it is very hard even thinking about that as something unreal.

I don't think it matters very much if thought decides it is real or unreal, or what thought thinks. What matters is the choiceless awareness of this movement of the mind. Not trying to do something about it, or not do something about it. In fact I am finding more and more for ALL the movements, the activities of the mind, it is only choiceless awareness of those activities that matter.

To watch them being born, come into existence. And watch them fade away. To actually welcome all these movements into consciousness, because they are revealing the truth about oneself. There is something very ....... I cannot find the words. Something very meaningful about that watching.

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #101
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote #98:
Clive, the question is: why does that entity think there is something to gain or loose?

I am not sure that that is the fundamental question. Rather, why does that entity come into existence at all?

When I ask "Why" I am not asking for a theoretical answer. Such answers are ten a penny. but what is the root of it? And as I said above, I think the only 'answer' to that lies in choiceless awareness.

But no, it is not an "answer". Better say, "the only understanding".

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Tue, 19 May 2020 #102
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Clive, the question is: why does that entity think there is something to gain or loose?

The entity HAS to think in those terms, does it not? That is its very nature. It has been put together by thought to achieve a certain end, and it must keep trying to do that - at least until the folly of its own existence is seen.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #103
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Now, to realize truth, to realize this infinite renewal of life, you must be utterly free, your mind must be entirely stripped of all craving. You will say, "How can I, a man of the world, live without craving?" Have you ever tried to live without craving? Have you ever seen the cause of sorrow and said to yourself, "I shall be free of that cause"? Intellectually you see the cause, and intellectually you see how difficult it is to be free of it. Therefore you never try, but say "A man in the world cannot live without craving, he must fight for himself in this civilization; otherwise he is crushed under, destroyed." You have not tried it, therefore you cannot say what will happen. You think about it, but because you have not tried it, your thinking is merely theoretical, and therefore of very little value. Whereas, if you are emotionally aware with this idea of life utterly free from craving, then you will see that you are master of circumstances, because you have such an infinite capacity of pliability that you do not need to cling to anything, hence you have no fear. Being free from the sensation of perception, you perceive without its enticements.

You must be free from the sentimentality of emotion, which does not mean you must be free of emotion; on the contrary, you must have great intensity of emotion without being entangled in it. That is, you must be free from the clinging, personal emotion. At the same time, you must be free from all ideas, and yet be so pliable, so alert. that you are an ocean of ideas.

This is from talks at the Ojai camp 1932. The part I have highlighted reminds me of what I suggested early on in this thread, that to be free of fear does not necessarily imply the complete absence of fear.

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Wed, 27 May 2020 #104
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Clive with reference to #102, I think it is very important to understand what is a gain and what is a loss because this is where we put our hearts, actually.

We put our hearts into something we think will give us the best gain.

Jeff Bozos puts his heart in making money and getting even more powerful.

Some people do that in achieving enlightnment.

Fear basically exists because of the idea of loss, which is not realizing a certain gain, insn't it? In other words, we would consider something unbearable. Like loosing all money, being alone, etc

So we have to ask ourselves what do we consider a gain.

Is getting rid of fear a gain?

Is being right a gain?

How would we define gain? Is it simply becoming something?

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Wed, 27 May 2020 #105
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
We put our hearts into something we think will give us the best gain.

Jeff Bozos puts his heart in making money and getting even more powerful.

Some people do that in achieving enlightnment..

i am not sure that the heart is concerned with gain or loss. Is it not the self, the ego, that does such measurement, that is everlastingly anxious about itself?

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Fear basically exists because of the idea of loss, which is not realizing a certain gain, isn't it? In other words, we would consider something unbearable. Like loosing all money, being alone, etc

Yes, surely. big losses, of which the greatest example would be death, and tiny insignificant 'losses', like the coffee not being hot enough. The self is indefatigable in its self-protection. Through identification, it turns everything into some sort of success or failure for the self. And yes, such a habitual movement must engender fear.

So it seems that a root cause of fear is identification. Which I would say is the root cause of the self itself.

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
So we have to ask ourselves what do we consider a gain.

Is getting rid of fear a gain?

Is being right a gain?

How would we define gain? Is it simply becoming something?

I am not sure that defining anything will lead us anywhere. Rather, can we see what is happening inside ourselves?

So having identified with something, like a nation or a bank account, a cause; our sense of well-being is intimately tied up with that something. Our happiness and our pain depends on how the thing identified with performs. We fear these things will collapase, disappear, deteriorate, because we think we will likewise expand or contract.

So it seems reasonable to ask: why identify in the first place? Is it an essential part of living?

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #106
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

We have been considering at length the issue of being free of fear. It came to me toaday, we do not show the same interest in being free of the pursuit of pleasure. Yet that may be an equal distortion in our lives.

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #107
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

If you feel the utter importance of being free from fear, you have to look at it without any sense of association. That requires a great deal of attention, not attending to fear but the quality of attention that observes.

Public Talk 5 in Madras (Chennai), 5 January 1980

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #108
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
i am not sure that the heart is concerned with gain or loss. Is it not the self, the ego, that does such measurement, that is everlastingly anxious about itself?

I mean we put our energy in gain. Maybe heart is not a good word.

We are driven by gain.

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #109
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I am not sure that defining anything will lead us anywhere. Rather, can we see what is happening inside ourselves?

So having identified with something, like a nation or a bank account, a cause; our sense of well-being is intimately tied up with that something. Our happiness and our pain depends on how the thing identified with performs. We fear these things will collapase, disappear, deteriorate, because we think we will likewise expand or contract.

So it seems reasonable to ask: why identify in the first place? Is it an essential part of living?

Clive, I think it is important to define things. For instance, K often asked: what is fear?

You mentioned identification as a root cause of fear. What is identification? Nothing is obvious or could be taken for granted, I think.

Is identification the same as attachment?

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #110
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We have been considering at length the issue of being free of fear. It came to me toaday, we do not show the same interest in being free of the pursuit of pleasure. Yet that may be an equal distortion in our lives.

I think maybe pleasure = gain. This is why I think it is very important to define things.

What is pleasure? It is not easy to answer that.

If my soccer team wins I feel pleasure (a gain) otherwise it is a loss.

That is a very obvious example.

If I write something smart here and someone comment on that, I feel pleasure. It feels like I have gained something. What did I gain? The mind thinks this is a gain, for sure.

It looks that pleasure is the feeling of adding things.

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #111
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
If you feel the utter importance of being free from fear, you have to look at it without any sense of association. That requires a great deal of attention, not attending to fear but the quality of attention that observes.

Public Talk 5 in Madras (Chennai), 5 January 1980

Just saw this one...interesting...thanks for posting. Normally we focus on fear...concentrate our attention on the fear or whatever the conflict, right? K is pointing out that the attention itself is what's important.

Let it Be

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #112
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

The more things we add, the better we get. And we want to go on forever in this process.

It never ends.

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
If you feel the utter importance of being free from fear, you have to look at it without any sense of association. That requires a great deal of attention, not attending to fear but the quality of attention that observes.

Yes, it takes feeling the utter importance of being free of fear. Then comes the hard part: I have to look at it without wanting to get rid of it.

The mind imediatelly sees getting rid of fear as a gain. As I never do, there is the feeling of loss which reinforces fear. This is the mechanism of a panic attack.

To my surprise I once could see that there was pleasure in feeling deep fear. Maybe this is why there are so many horror movies.

It is not easy to see pleasure in fear.

Well, Clive, I am just writing down things as they come to my mind.

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Fri, 29 May 2020 #113
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
It looks that pleasure is the feeling of adding things.

Attachment. Adding things...new cars, clothes jewelry, music, movies, collecting books or antiques. Owning stuff. All this gives a feeling of psychological security. And many of us live for this alone. We collect sports memorabilia, tea pots, fine wines, art, films on DVD, music cd's, etc. I knew a guy who had over a 1000 CD's in his music collection. Who has time to listen to all that? Some do the same with books...antique books, or just a huge book collection. Just having it gives security...psychological.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 29 May 2020.

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2 days ago #114
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

For some, pleasure is acquiring things. For others, experiences. For others, it is wisdom, so called insights that they gather. All kinds of accumulation and seeking are possible.

This post was last updated by idiot ? 2 days ago.

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2 days ago #115
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
We are driven by gain.

Yes, this seems to me to be so. I think this is what K used to call "craving"

It is such a deep, ancient conditioning that it is hard for the mind to question this movement. And probably like all the other psychological movements, it has its roots in natural, physical impulses - to be safer, more secure, more comfortable, more powerful. All these things seep over into the psychological. And from there they build the society that we have. Everything based on "more".

It is such a prison, isn't it? All the time we want to become something that we are not, and our energy is thus focused on the future, and not in the present.

I am sure that we all see this. And if we react against it, and try to have 'less', then that is just another variety of 'more', isn't it?

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2 days ago #116
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Clive, I think it is important to define things.

Why do you think so, Jose? Once we have defined things, then what? Does it help the process of enquiry? Doesn't it become fixed? Doesn't the definition then limit our perception?

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
You mentioned identification as a root cause of fear. What is identification? Nothing is obvious or could be taken for granted, I think.

Identification is thinking that we are the same as something or someone else. (In certain defined forms, it is taken as insanity) I "am" this or that nation, some religious belief or other, "my family", my bank account, my job, my reputation - the football team that you mention ...... You know how one feels if such things are felt to be under attack, if they fail, if they turn away from us, or we risk loosing them.

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Is identification the same as attachment?

I cannot see much difference. Surely we are attached to the things we identify with? We ARE those things.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell 2 days ago.

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2 days ago #117
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
I think maybe pleasure = gain.

Perhaps the question that needs to be investigated is: what is it that thinks it can gain? is it something real? Or is it merely an image?

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2 days ago #118
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
For some, pleasure is acquiring things. For others, experiences. For others, it is wisdom, so called insights that they gather. All kinds of accumulation and seeking are possible

And is not these accumulations that create the 'me'?

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2 days ago #119
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
o my surprise I once could see that there was pleasure in feeling deep fear. Maybe this is why there are so many horror movies.

It is not easy to see pleasure in fear.

There may be "pleasure" in feeling anything really deeply, free from duality, free from the feeling I should not be feeling it.

But pleasure is not the right word. I wonder if this is the 'fulfillment' that K often talked of in his early years?

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2 days ago #120
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Just having it gives security...psychological.

But it doesn't quite work, does it? Once one desire is satisfied, there is soon the desire for more.

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