Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Being free of fear


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 127 in total
Sun, 10 May 2020 #61
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Dan: But here is what needs to be realized, (as I see it) that this is all just the workings of the human mind. We invent the idea of death and then are repelled by it. We invent the idea of permanence, continuation' and then are repelled, horrified that we will not continue, the brain invents the 'I'...All these are 'human affairs'. There are no such similar 'squirrel affairs', 'bird affairs', 'deer affairs' (as far as we know)...

Wow...all inventions of thought then, right? without thought there's just the unknown...no time..which is now? Time as past and future is thought.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 10 May 2020.

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Sun, 10 May 2020 #62
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
without thought there's just the unknown...no time..which is now? Time as past and future is thought.

Walking in the woods just now there was a moment of awareness of 'me' thinking. You would normally say "I was talking to myself". 'Hearing' it was strange, it was just an instant of awareness and then 'I' began to think about it, the ramifications of it, etc. The first thought to come was: "when the brain dies, this 'talking' will stop". And then a question: When the body dies, when the brain dies, when the thinking ends...is there anything that remains?

Is it this thing we call 'awareness' that gave that instant of insight? That is in all living 'things' to one degree or another? That can't be 'known', can it? Because there is no 'knower' to 'know' it? It just 'is'?

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Sun, 10 May 2020 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But here is what needs to be realized, (as I see it) that this is all just the workings of the human mind.

Indeed. Is this perception not the solution to all human problems? Is this not the door to the unknown? All conflicts, all contradictions,all confusion are just the result of these 'workings of the human mind'. The content of thought. Thought is merely thought. But general people don't look at things this way, they are engrossed in those works. Not seeing that they ARE the workings, they work as if from the outside trying to reconcile the workings, achieve peace and happiness within the workings, no?

We invent the idea of death and then are repelled by it.

Wait a moment. Do we INVENT the idea of death? Death is a fact, is it not?, both physically and psychologically, and we can see it happening all around. However, we do invent ideas of what follows death. And there is certainly something irrational in people's "approach" to dying.

Would there be ideas of death, if we had not created ideas of a living 'me'? After all, for something to die, there has to be something in the first place.

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #64
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As long as we are not clear that there is no such thing as gain or loss in the universe, we will suffer.

We often refer on the forum to K's “secret” (a rather widely known secret now!) that he didn't mind what happened. (I sometimes wonder if he meant that he didn't mind what happened to HIM, since he did seem to care a lot what was happening to the world. But that is not what I am pondering over here). Not minding implies "no gain, no loss", doesn't it?

What is the “opposite state' to not minding what happens? Is it not actively wanting specific things to happen, or not to happen? Which is to say, desire. And when there is desire, there is a self who is doing the desiring, who wants something, no?

It seems to me that as soon as we desire, psychologically, we are lost. That desire becomes a narrow path which we have to follow, and in following we ignore the infinity of other paths, the rest of life. Desire becomes a prison; it distorts our whole life. The obvious corollary to desire is fear, anxiety – because there is always a chance that we do not get what we desire, or we loose that which we think we have gained. Our whole life centers around our desires, achieving or not-achieving become our only measure of life, either in tiny, petty things, or our ongoing, wider desires.

We may see this, or glimpse this, but I think there is strong fear to drop our desire-dominated way of living. Are desires not the very essence of the self? What would happen to the self if it had no desires to pursue? (in that 'pursuing' is included all 'becoming'). Would it not be as nothing? And is being nothing the one idea that the self cannot tolerate?

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #65
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Not minding implies "no gain, no loss", doesn't it?

Yes!!

Very interesting the concept of gain and loss. The fundamental desire, which is to become something, seems to be a gain. If we fail to become something then we see that as a loss.

Obviously, if there is nothing to lose or to gain, then there is no fear. Our conditioning is so strong that life seems to have no meaning if there is nothing to gain or to loose.

But I do not mind what happens, in my opinion, does not mean that I do not care about the world.

I will think more about gain and loss. This seems to be very important.

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #66
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I sense in me Jose and Clive a very deep resentment...it is about 'dying'. That I will die but life will go on without me

Dan, I feel this too, but very rarely. Consciously, I do not feel any fear of death.

One day I was in the back seat of a car, watching very beautiful landscapes, I was very relaxed, and suddenly I had the impression I completely lost the desire to become anything. This feeling just came from nowhere.

Then I had the impression that I was sinking into the car seat. The car disappeared. There was nothing around me that I could recognize. Everything was unknow. Then a small fear arose, making me to jump up to the back seat again. I came back in an extremely peaceful state. Only few thoughts that seem to move very slowly. A show stopper thought like "this is going to end and you wil go back to normal" caused no reaction. That was not considered a loss, I see it now.

I never quite understood what was that. I think that the fear I felt was the fundamental fear: the death of the ego. Of course this is just a theory.

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #67
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But Jose, if you don't mind me saying so, you are still focused on getting rid of fears. Not on the broader question of being free of fear.

Clive, this is very subtle. We see the consequences of fear in our lifes. We know we need to get rid of fear.

But we also know, intellectually, it will not go away if we want to get rid of it.

So, there is a knowledge that fear is harmful. So pure observation seems to require that even that knowledge should be disregarded.

However, I think it is important to observe the consequences of fear. What do you think?

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
So, there is a knowledge that fear is harmful. So pure observation seems to require that even that knowledge should be disregarded.

Of course. That idea that it's harmful will prevent observation, right?

However, I think it is important to observe the consequences of fear. What do you think?

Can you give any examples, Jose?

Let it Be

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #69
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Wait a moment. Do we INVENT the idea of death? Death is a fact, is it not?, both physically and psychologically, and we can see it happening all around.

What we've 'invented' is the negative aspect of it, haven't we, especially as it pertains to ourselves and one's we're 'attached' to.

As if 'death' is a 'loss' in some significant way.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 11 May 2020.

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
As if 'death' is a 'loss' in some significant way.

Indeed...we fear the loss of our attachments...our memories. The 'good' ones, anyway. We don't fear losing painful memories. However life is much more than memory, and perhaps that which is NOT a memory will not know death.

Let it Be

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
So, there is a knowledge that fear is harmful. So pure observation seems to require that even that knowledge should be disregarded

In response to this, may I quote from today's QOTD:

" To understand the disturbing state in which you find yourself, you must first stop the fighting with the opposite which is non-existent, i.e. you must give up the struggle to become the opposite. Do not condemn that state nor identify yourself with it. Then, watch it with your whole being and be aware of it.

Whenever we have a feeling, we generally name it so that we may recognise it and also communicate it, if necessary, to others. Investigation into and understanding of the feeling itself, which is changing and in movement, demands freedom from terminology, as the term is not the thing that it is supposed to denote.

If a feeling is investigated through a term, the term becomes important and not the feeling. When communicated to another, that other interprets the term or the word according to his own feeling. Thus, the term influences, modifies, and shapes the feeling. For the same reasons, the word 'God' is not 'God' and yet it has become an extraordinarily important word. "

As you know I am sure, over and over and over again, K asked us if we can look without recognising what we are looking at. Starting with looking at a tree, an object, looking at one's wife, etc, looking inward at ourselves. Do you think that this applies to fear also?

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #72
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
However, I think it is important to observe the consequences of fear. What do you think?

In the book "Life Ahead", K is talking to students in India, and for 8 consecutive talks/discussions, he considers the issue of fear. But we do not need K to point out how dominant a factor fear is in our lives. Little fears and big ones, they all darken our lives. Clearly there are many consequences of fear. but you are asking a different question,if I understand you. Should knowledge of the consequences of fear play a part in our observation of fear. Is that it? Have I got it right?

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Mon, 11 May 2020 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As if 'death' is a 'loss' in some significant way.

It is certainly weird, people's attitude to death in general. One often hears a perfectly normal death described as "a tragedy".

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #74
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
a perfectly normal death

I'm thinking of Jose's description in the back seat of the car...Was that an insight into our true situation? The breakdown for a moment of the belief that we have of our body, ourselves, as being separate from the environment around us, from the rest of the world? That that separation is, actually, only an illusion? That the division of the border of our skin and the rest of the world is actually false?

In which case, 'death' as we 'think' about it is completely erroneous.

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #75
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Of course. That idea that it's harmful will prevent observation, right?

This is a very important point. Maybe it is not an idea, maybe I see that as a fact, and yet this must be "forgotten" when looking at fear. It is like looking at a criminal, we must "forget" the person is a criminal, otherwise we cannot see him.

Tom Paine wrote:
However, I think it is important to observe the consequences of fear. What do you think?

Can you give any examples, Jose?

I see that fear prevents me from thinking clearly. I see that my decisions are affected by fear in a wrong way. In the moments I have no fear I can see that even better. When fear is not there is peace, clear thinking.

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #76
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
As you know I am sure, over and over and over again, K asked us if we can look without recognising what we are looking at. Starting with looking at a tree, an object, looking at one's wife, etc, looking inward at ourselves. Do you think that this applies to fear also?

Yes. I have no doubt about it because of my own experience.

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #77
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Should knowledge of the consequences of fear play a part in our observation of fear. Is that it? Have I got it right?

I think watching the consequences is important. But knowledge of the consequences prevents the observation.

So, what is role of watching the consequences? I cannot explain this. just feel it is important somehow.

I order to get rid of nationalism, for instance, we need to observe its consequences. Does that make sense?

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #78
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That that separation is, actually, only an illusion? That the division of the border of our skin and the rest of the world is actually false?

Dan, once and a while, normally when watching people passing by, there was only the person. There was really nothing observing the person. There was not the sensation of I am here and you are there. It happens involuntarily.

But it is very quick. Maybe it lasts one second. But enough to see that it is possible. K maybe was not so freak. :-)

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #79
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Online

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
It is like looking at a criminal, we must "forget" the person is a criminal, otherwise we cannot see him.

Right, knowledge prevents 'seeing' objectively...objective observation. Whether it's knowledge of the criminal or knowledge of fear.

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

However, I think it is important to observe the consequences of fear. What do you think?

Can you give any examples, Jose?

I see that fear prevents me from thinking clearly. I see that my decisions are affected by fear in a wrong way.

Yes, impossible to think clearly or to act intelligently.

Let it Be

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #80
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

I haven't read through every post in this thread but I want to respond to the one that begins it.

I think that we really have to consider whether being free of fear actually does imply the absence of fear. Fear may arise and need attention but then through awareness it is gone.

Let's take something easy like nationalism. If I see myself waving the flag and loving my country, I am aware of my nationalism. But what do I really love? The land? The land is beautiful. But there is beautiful land all over the world, not just where I was born or where I now live. Is it the culture? There are beautiful cultures all over the world. And I see that us versus them causes war and conflict. I see that the division creates violence and suffering. So clearly seeing it, I drop nationalism. I respect all. I don't wave any flag. I may have a passport with a country on it as a practical matter. But I no longer think the country where I live is better than another.

Doesn't being free of nationalism imply dropping it? I'm aware of it, get insight into it, and it drops. If I keep on being a nationalist, I'm not really free of it, am I? If I keep waving the flag and getting emotional singing the national anthem but claim to now be aware of it, am I really free of nationalism? No.

So, too, being free of fear is ending of fear. Fear comes up, I am aware of it, there is insight into it (it is denial of reality, imagining an unwanted future, protecting a separate self or possessive relationship), and it drops. If I keep living in fear, I'm not really free of it, am I? To really be free of fear is to live without fear. It may come up rarely, but then awareness and insight end it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 12 May 2020.

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Tue, 12 May 2020 #81
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote #75:
It is like looking at a criminal, we must "forget" the person is a criminal, otherwise we cannot see him.

But there may be times when it is important to bear in mind that a person has certain criminal tendencies

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Wed, 13 May 2020 #82
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
I think watching the consequences is important. But knowledge of the consequences prevents the observation. So, what is role of watching the consequences? I cannot explain this. just feel it is important somehow.
I order to get rid of nationalism, for instance, we need to observe its consequences.

But nationalism IS its consequences, is it not? Can one separate the two? Does "nationalism" have a separate existence from its manifestations and consequences?

And similarly with fear, and all the manifestations of the mind. There ARE the manifestations, fear IS all the bodily symptoms and the mental reactions. It does not exist interdependently of its manifestations, does it?

Perhaps this is one of the issues of language, of describing things. Descriptions are abstractions, they are not the things described. But often we treat them as such.

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Wed, 13 May 2020 #83
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Doesn't being free of nationalism imply dropping it? I'm aware of it, get insight into it, and it drops. If I keep on being a nationalist, I'm not really free of it, am I? If I keep waving the flag and getting emotional singing the national anthem but claim to now be aware of it, am I really free of nationalism? No

I'm not sure. What do we mean by "being free" of nationalism, or anything? Let's look at it, and perhaps relate it to 'being free of fear'

I think at one level I could describe myself as non-nationalistic. Actively so. I often talk openly about its dangers, I openly will not identify myself with a nation, even on official forms. I do not think that I act in a nationalistic way. And I feel strongly about this issue; I echo K's phrase "nationalism is a poison". It is insane.

So am I free of it? The fact is that in certain circumstances I see certain thoughts and feelings (more feelings) arise in me. They do not take root, they do not gain traction. But I cannot deny that at times I see these - shall I call them 'impulses'? Instincts? Whatever I call them, I see them arise, as if from the sub-conscious mind. With awareness, they are seen for what they are, and they quickly fade. Or I may turn them into a joke. But I cannot say that there are not these 'traces' of nationalism in me (it may not be accurate to say "in me", in fact, it may be this movement is in human consciousness, and so are part of me. I am the world. It may be these traces may be with me until the day I die. But i don't think that it matters, what matters is awareness of them arising, as you describe, Id.

So, is it the same with fear - which must be a more deep-rooted instinct than nationalism/tribalism? And in fact at the physical level it is probably a necessary biological function.

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Wed, 13 May 2020 #84
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I'm thinking of Jose's description in the back seat of the car...Was that an insight into our true situation? The breakdown for a moment of the belief that we have of our body, ourselves, as being separate from the environment around us, from the rest of the world? That that separation is, actually, only an illusion? That the division of the border of our skin and the rest of the world is actually false?

Dan, in cases like that, it is hard to tell whether it was an illusion or not. My feeling is that, for a moment, I really lost the desire to become anything and what happened was real. I had no intention to achieve anything, I was just observing the beautiful landscape.

I think I had the feeling of being absolutely nothing. Attached to nothing. Completely alone. The feeling of the death of the ego. This is scaring. Actually it is unbearable.

Sometimes I think that if somehow I had managed do cope with that feeling without fear, something would have happened, some change in my mind. Of course just a theory.

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Wed, 13 May 2020 #85
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But there may be times when it is important to bear in mind that a person has certain criminal tendencies

Clive, this is a very important point. I live in Rio, a dangerous city.

Criminals here have certain physical characteristics and behaviour. Of course it is important to identify this in order to prevent robbery.

But it is very difficult to separate this from prejudice, which is knowledge.

Maybe we could compare with seeing a snake. Of course it is important to know that a snake is dangerous. But if I see the snake as evil, then I do not see it.

A tiger is very dangerous too, but it is not considered evil. So it is easy to see the beauty of the tiger.

Likewise, if I see a criminal as evil, I do not see it. A criminal is a human being, nobody knows what that person went trough in his life.

Many years ago, I read in a biography that when K was very young, a thief entered the house. Rajagopal got a baseball bat to defend himself whereas K went outside to try to convince the thief it was not worthwhile doing that! :-)

It is the same as fear. I observe the consequences of fear. I can see, at least intellectually, that fear is one of the root causes of bad things happening with me and in the world.

And yet, I should look at it as if it was the first time, without prejudices.

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Wed, 13 May 2020 #86
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But nationalism IS its consequences, is it not? Can one separate the two? Does "nationalism" have a separate existence from its manifestations and consequences?

And similarly with fear, and all the manifestations of the mind. There ARE the manifestations, fear IS all the bodily symptoms and the mental reactions. It does not exist interdependently of its manifestations, does it?

Clive, I cannot see nationalism and its consequences as the same thing.

If nationalism had no bad consequences, why would we bother trying to get rid of it?

Same with fear.

Can you better explain that, please?

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Thu, 14 May 2020 #87
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
If nationalism had no bad consequences, why would we bother trying to get rid of it?

I was not saying that nationalism has no bad consequences, it obviously has disastrous consequences.

And yet I could phrase that another way; I could say: "nationalism is a disaster". Putting it that does not separate nationalism from its consequences.

If we separate nationalism from its consequences, we are implying that there could be nationalism without disastrous consequences, are we not? But is that the case? Surely not. Surely the two are linked inescapably, inexorably. If that is the case, are they really not one movement?

You were talking of criminality. Can there be a criminal, separate from his criminal acts?

Language has a strong tendency to separate that which is not really separate, does it not? A simple example is in the phrase "I think .....". Is there really an I who is separate from the thinking?

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Sun, 17 May 2020 #88
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

More on the issue of being free from fear:

From talk at the University, Monevideo, 1935

Question: A person who is religiously minded but who has the power to think deeply may lose his religious faith after listening to you. but if his fear remains, what advantage will that be for him?

Krishnamurti: What creates faith in man? Fundamentally, fear. You say, "If I get rid of faith, then I shall be left with fear, and so have gained nothing." So you prefer to live in an illusion, clinging to its phantasies. in order to escape from fear, you create faith. Now when through deep thinking you dissolve faith, then you are face to face with fear. Then only can you resolve the cause of fear. When all the avenues of escape have been thoroughly understood and destroyed, then you are face to face with the root of fear: only then can the mind liberate itself from the clutch of fear.

When there is fear, then religions and authorities, which you have created in your search for security, offer you the opiate which you call faith, or the love of God. Thus you merely cover up fear, which expresses itself in hidden and subtle ways. So you continue rejecting old faiths and accepting new ones; but the real poison, the root of fear, is never dissolved. As long as there is that limited consciousness, the "I", there must be fear. Until the mind liberates itself from this limited consciousness, fear must remain in one form or another.

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Mon, 18 May 2020 #89
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

The issue of freedom from fear has still been very much with me. It is so fundamental. And I ask: if we are to be free of fear, must we not be free of the causes of fear, the roots of it?

Surely there cannot be self-interest, there cannot be possessiveness, there cannot be the push for security of any kind , there cannot be the desire for escape, and at the same time no fear. Fear is intrinsic to these qualities, is it not?

K:Now what happens when you seek security, certainty? There must be fear; and if you are conscious of your thought, you will discern that it has its root in fear. Morality, religion and objective conditions are based fundamentally on fear, for they are the outcome of the desire on the part of the individual to be secure.

Fear is not an isolated problem, not some particular, personal problem to be solved, leaving one to carry on with one’s life in greater ease, greater comfort. “Freedom from fear” implies, it seems to me, that the whole of one’s life will be fundamentally different.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Mon, 18 May 2020.

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Mon, 18 May 2020 #90
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 118 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Surely there cannot be self-interest, there cannot be possessiveness, there cannot be the push for security of any kind , there cannot be the desire for escape, and at the same time no fear. Fear is intrinsic to these qualities, is it not?

I think we should add pleasure to the list, which is not very easy to understand.

Dan mentioned gain and loss. I have thinking a lot about this.

It is very simple: if there is nothing to gain or loose, then there is no no fear. Again: I do not mind what happens.

It seems that pleasure/fear, ("the two sides of the same coin") = gain and loss. I feel pleasure when I gain and fear because I am afraid of loosing what I have gained or will gain.

So understanding what is gain and loss seems to be a key to this problem.

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