Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Denial of the opposites...the negative approach


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Sun, 03 May 2020 #31
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti:
But actually, brutally we have no love. Because to have love means no violence, no fear, no competition, no ambition. If there is love, there is peace, because you would educate your children, not to be nationalists, not to have only a technical job and look after his own petty, little affairs. You would have no nationality. There would be no divisions of religion. If you loved. But as these things actually exist, not theoretically. They exist brutally in this ugly world. It shows that you have no love. If you really… If the mother really loved her child, do you think the world would be like this? So we have not that love. But you MUST have it! If you don’t have it, you cannot have virtue, you cannot be orderly, you cannot live with passion. And there is no time. You can’t say, “Well, I can live without love because I’ve lived without love for two million years. Another two million years I will live without love.” That means perpetual sorrow for the next two million years. So what will you do? If you say, please tell me what to do, then you’re missing the bus entirely. But if you saw the importance, the immensity, the urgency of that question, not tomorrow, not the next day or next hour, but see it now while you’re sitting! Admittance of time is the greatest sorrow. As sorrow and love cannot be resolved, or love cannot exist through time, what is the state of your mind that has put this question? If you put that question with that alacrity, with that urgency, with that potency, then what takes place in the mind? Because it will not allow time to come and interfere. Therefore such a mind has an infinite space, both in the mind and in the heart. And so that mind is in that state of love, and in that sense of beauty, that sense of vast, infinite space.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 03 May 2020.

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Sun, 03 May 2020 #32
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting excerpt, Id. Thanks for sharing. Watching a lot of talks on youtube lately. well, with the lockdown here because of covid I have a ton of time on my hands. And he's fascinating to listen to...to really listen.

Let it Be

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Here’s one to sink your teeth into, Id?

Ommen Camp, Holland | Public Talk, August 1st 1936

Is there a way by which we can end conflict and sorrow without destroying creative intelligence and integral completeness? Can there ever be choiceless living, that is, can there ever be action without denial or aggressive want? Can there be action which is spontaneous and thus free of the conflict of opposites? Can there ever be a life of fullness without the withering process of discipline, denial, fear and frustration? Is such a state of deep comprehension ever possible? I wonder how many of you are vitally conscious of this conflict in the battlefield of the mind.

A life of fullness, a life of choiceless action, a life free from the withering process of subjugation and substitution, is possible. How is this state to be realized? Systems and methods cannot produce this happy state of mind. This condition of choiceless life must come about naturally, spontaneously; it cannot be sought after. It is not to be understood or realized or conquered through a discipline, through a system. One can condition the mind through training, discipline, and compulsion, but such conditioning cannot nourish thought or awaken deep intelligence. Such a trained mind is as the soil that is barren.

Let it Be

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Perspective.
“Imagine you were born in 1900. On your 14th birthday, World War I starts, and ends on your 18th birthday. 22 million people perish in that war. Later in the year, a Spanish Flu epidemic hits the planet and runs until your 20th birthday. 50 million people die from it in those two years. Yes, 50 million. On your 29th birthday, the Great Depression begins. Unemployment hits 25%, the World GDP drops 27%. That runs until you are 33. The country nearly collapses along with the world economy. When you turn 39, World War II starts. You aren’t even over the hill yet. And don’t try to catch your breath. On your 41st birthday, the United States is fully pulled into WWII. Between your 39th and 45th birthday, 75 million people perish in the war. At 50, the Korean War starts. 5 million perish. At 55 the Vietnam War begins and doesn’t end for 20 years. 4 million people perish in that conflict. On your 62nd birthday you have the Cuban Missile Crisis, a tipping point in the Cold War. Life on our planet, as we know it, should have ended. Great leaders prevented that from happening. When you turn 75, the Vietnam War finally ends. Think of everyone on the planet born in 1900. How do you survive all of that?”
Author unknown

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #35
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Yet here in this forum there is sometimes a "don't go there" attitude about the freedom and transformation that K talks about.

I don't know if I have seen this on the forum, as you describe it, but yes, I have certainly detected it in many of those 'interested' in K's words. It is curious.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Mon, 04 May 2020.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #36
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote #24:
You and I are responsible for this world. What are we going to do?

As I am sure you are aware, Id, no one can answer that question for you. To follow someone's words, including K, it to relinquish all responsibility. In fact I would say even to follow one's OWN words is in the same category.

Everything points towards dying to the past, psychologically, does it not? And I AM the past. Is this not "the negative approach" (which is not an approach) of this thread?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Mon, 04 May 2020.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: To follow someone's words, including K, it to relinquish all responsibility. In fact I would say even to follow one's OWN words is in the same category.

Indeed...words are the problem...the authority or our conditioning...aren't' they? Obviously not talking about words for practical living...apple, frying pan, refrigerator, soup...and all that.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 04 May 2020.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
I think this is an important point, suffering needs be felt first hand to the extend of realizing that one has absolutely nowhere to turn to.

Can you expand upon what you mean by 'nowhere to turn to'. Do you mean that all the acquired knowledge from others is of no use? The teachings? It all prevents observing what's actually going on?

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #39
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You have to look into it. I don't see why you would, unless you really felt an urgency, unless you felt the suffering acutely.

Hi Id! Totally agree on that! I would say I am beggining to see that urgency, if that is possible.

If you do not mind me asking, why did you choose idiot ? ? :-)

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #40
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 182 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
If you do not mind me asking, why did you choose idiot ?

I've been on kinfonet for decades. When I first joined, I tried many user names and they had all been taken or were rejected for some other reason. Finally I said, "I don't care. Call me anything. Call me 'Idiot!'" And naturally that name was accepted.

People don't really like the name but it's good for not taking yourself too seriously. Also, when people don't like what you say they can call you an idiot and it's fine.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 04 May 2020.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #41
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 99 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you expand upon what you mean by 'nowhere to turn to'. Do you mean that all the acquired knowledge from others is of no use? The teachings? It all prevents observing what's actually going on?

'Nowhere to turn to' in the sense the usual routes of escape which were thus far functioning, which prevented coming into direct contact with a fact, has vanished. As I see, it has a transformative effect in the sense that it removes separation and we are not the same anymore. Where it lands us in relation with the 'Teachings' or anything we see as having an influence on us, will depend on the personal history. But, whatever there is to be related with, we do it in full.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:

Tom Paine wrote:

Can you expand upon what you mean by 'nowhere to turn to'. Do you mean that all the acquired knowledge from others is of no use? The teachings? It all prevents observing what's actually going on?

Nat: 'Nowhere to turn to' in the sense the usual routes of escape which were thus far functioning, which prevented coming into direct contact with a fact, has vanished

Why would it vanish? Something to do with suffering? I mean the usual escapes suddenly disappear? Effortlessly...choicelessly?

Let it Be

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #43
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 99 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why would it vanish? Something to do with suffering? I mean the usual escapes suddenly disappear? Effortlessly...choicelessly?

I don't have an answer to the why, but to my understanding, as effortless and choiceless as the fact of our existence.

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #44
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
I don't have an answer to the why, but to my understanding, as effortless and choiceless as the fact of our existence.

How so? We're usually making effort and choosing...struggling. That's a fact no?

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #45
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Indeed...words are the problem..

Are words the problem, Tom? If so, then there is no way out, is there, as we cannot do without words.

But wait, you are suggesting that only psychological words are the problem - self, me, mine, you, yours, I ...... It is pointless to ask if these words ceased to exist, would our human problems go away, as that is entirely hypothetical. But there must be a movement BEHIND the words, a movement, something, that has created these words, and continues to use them. Something that formed, and keeps forming, the center. What is it that does so, when that center causes so many problems?

I can see that words play a major part in continuing the center, but are they the root cause?

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #46
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Also, when people don't like what you say they can call you an idiot and it's fine

Ah, I understand now!

:-)

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Mon, 04 May 2020 #47
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3477 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
but there must be a movement BEHIND the words, a movement, something, that has created these words, and continues to use them.

They’re intricately connected to memory right?

Something that formed, and keeps forming, the center. What is it that does so, when that center causes so mmany problems?

Memory and experience....pleasure and pain...creates the center?

I can see that words play a major part in continuing the center, but are they the root cause?

The experiences behind the words...that’s what creates the me isn’t it...the memories create fear and desire.

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Tue, 05 May 2020 #48
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 119 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
People don't really like the name but it's good for not taking yourself too seriously. Also, when people don't like what you say they can call you an idiot and it's fine.

:-)

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