Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Discussion on "In the light of Silence, all problems are dissolved"


Displaying posts 61 - 74 of 74 in total
Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Usually we think there is the known and at the best beyond the known is the unknown

Interesting point, Manfred. So does it mean anything at all to refer to the unknown? Would that inevitably be an image of the unknown, which is of course part of the known?

Does the unknown lie in the act of negating the known? When I say "negating" I don't mean an action of will, but what happens when the known is seen for what it is.

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
When we are assuming that the basis is the unknown, then it is different.

Can you enlarge on this, Manfred, or put it another way? You later say:
"Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing". Do you mean each thought is associated with uncertainty, or something more than this?

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That's the way it works. The self wants this stepping out of the 'stream' to be permanent...but it is the stream. And it has no intention of doing any such thing even if it knew what that meant and it can't. . The 'skill' is to see through the subterfuge, the traps of its 'time', its 'becoming', its desire for a result, etc... No?

Yes

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
What is self knowledge? Where is it held?

This is why I have long held that 'self knowledge' is a wrong term, and it would have been better for K to stick to "self-understanding", or "self-knowing" There is no holding of understanding, it lies in the moment only. What is held by the mind is knowledge/conditioning, no?

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #64
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 292 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Self knowledge is knowledge of the self as it is.

In the light of Awareness, where is the self?

In the light of Silence, all problems are dissolved.

Look, see, let go

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #65
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3474 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Self knowledge is knowledge of the self as it is.
In the light of Awareness, where is the self?

The self is a fact. In the light of awareness it is seen and understood. Self knowing, as Clive suggests, is perhaps a better term

Let it Be

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #66
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 292 posts in this forum Offline

The self is a fact. We see its effects. Dare I say that when sitting down my lap is also a fact.

When I try to catch myself I run around in circles. When I try to find myself I cannot. When I try to describe myself, what have I gained?

Look, see, let go

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #67
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 111 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred:

When we are assuming that the basis is the unknown, then it is different.

Clive: Can you enlarge on this, Manfred, or put it another way? You later say:
"Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing". Do you mean each thought is associated with uncertainty, or something more than this?
———————

Manfred: What I tried to say is that there is oneness. Oneness cannot be known or expressed in words. Oneness and the öunknown or in Krishnamurti terms „freedom from the known“ are different expressions for this area beyond thought.

Or easier expressed „the word is not the thing“. The description is always smaller than the described. For instance, when we describe a chair we have to isolate it from its surrounding. But the chair does only exist within its surrounding or the whole. When we see clearly that whatever we express is on one hand necessary for different reasons but on the other hand only the opposite from something else, than maybe we are open for the opposite. In Quantum physics we cannot say it is either a part or a wave. It could be both. But we can only be aware of either one or the other.

When it is correct that oneness/not
knowing cannot be expressed in words then any statement is associated with or surrounded by or based on the unknown or uncertainty.

It is very difficult to express, but in our daily life it means, that any meaning different from our own should be treated as an enrichment in the beginning. .
In my way of thinking this is a consequence of seeing oneness as an inseparable whole.

Krishnamurti: Truth is a pathless land. David Bohm: Undivided wholeness in flowing movement”

This post was last updated by Manfred Kritzler Sat, 21 Mar 2020.

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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 #68
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Krishnamurti: Truth is a pathless land. David Bohm: Undivided wholeness in flowing movement”

Which is now presented to us by the coronavirus.

Denial, fear, isolation, distancing while wanting, needing to be near.
older people die, junger people don't care, compasion, care, stepping over your own shadow,

its all there worldwide.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 #69
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 111 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred wrote:

Krishnamurti: Truth is a pathless land. David Bohm: Undivided wholeness in flowing movement”

Wim:
Which is now presented to us by the coronavirus.

Manfred:
Yes. I think this virus could help us to see that our whole human system is based on uncertainty. We now are in a direct contact with a situation out of control. Maybe it is a chance to learn that we never ever can control life. Simply because it is not measurable. And maybe we learn out of this experience to act more cautious and more in tune with wholeness.

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #70
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Dare I say that when sitting down my lap is also a fact.

Nice one Douglas :-)

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Simply because it is not measurable. And maybe we learn out of this experience to act more cautious and more in tune with wholeness.

Do you think so? Certainly the possibility for learning and change are enormous, but I doubt very much if this possibility will ever be realised. Do we ever really learn from experience? Learn in the sense a change in the human psyche? It doesn't seem to happen, does it? What did we learn from the dreadful wars of last century? We still stockpile weapons, more and more horrific ones. All the nations support sovereign armies. And this insane identification with nations seems stronger than ever. Nothing, but nothing, seems to shake it.

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #72
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Do we ever really learn from experience? Learn in the sense a change in the human psyche? It doesn't seem to happen, does it? What did we learn from the dreadful wars of last century?

Public Talk 21st March, 1948 |

Question: What is the difference between awareness and introspection?
And who is aware in awareness?
...

The questioner also wants to know who is aware. Now, when you have a profound experience of any kind, what is taking place? When there is such an experience, are you aware that you are experiencing? When you are angry, at the split second of anger or of jealousy or of joy, are you aware that you are joyous or that you are angry? It is only when the experience is over that there is the experiencer and the experienced. Then the experiencer observes the experienced, the object of experience. But at the moment of experience, there is neither the observer nor the observed: there is only the experiencing. Now, most of us are not experiencing. We are always outside the state of experiencing, and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware.

The QOTD is very adequat and is our doubt not based on the past and thereby the very blockage to insight at the moment of experiencing as in the quoot above?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 26 Mar 2020 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5946 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
me there is a basic “mistake” in our way of thinking. Usually we think there is the known and at the best beyond the known is the unknown. That means the unknown fills up the known. Our actions are consciously driven by the known.

When we are assuming that the basis is the unknown, then it is different. The known is always embedded in the unknown. Now we are able to question whatever our fixed thought-system is telling us. Then to find out what that is makes sense. Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing. To get in touch with the base of our life we have to be aware which fixed thought process is acting. Choiceless awareness suddenly is an option. But the only way to experience it is to try it

I am now replying to this post on a new thread: "The Known and the Unknown"

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Sun, 05 Apr 2020 #74
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 292 posts in this forum Offline

Conflict & Reaction, Desire & Duality.
Is it more honest to say that we dissapear when there is an understanding of exactly what we are, ie. understanding the self - Or would it be better to say that we are nowhere to be found.

As long as there is me and you, there will be Conflict & Reaction.
The Self is Desire & Duality, is the Demand for Satisfaction.

Look, see, let go

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