Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Discussion on "In the light of Silence, all problems are dissolved"


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Sun, 15 Mar 2020 #31
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: What is the difference between being aware of my dislike for something or someone and my being 'angry' about something or someone? Why is one more 'difficult' to be aware of than the other.

If you see the tree free of the word ...free of knowledge and free of reaction, then you really see it as it is. But we condemn or judge fear and anger and can’t look at them free of that. Therefore we never see the emotion as it is and understand it. We don’t condemn or judge the tree! Therefore it’s much less difficult to really observe....to see.

Let it Be

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Sun, 15 Mar 2020 #32
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Can we sort this out?

Thanks Dan (post #30). This is essential to understand.

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Sun, 15 Mar 2020 #33
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1757 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But we condemn or judge fear and anger and can’t look at them free of that. Therefore we never see the emotion as it is and understand it.

So the 'tree' doesn't disturb me... (thankfully!) but you calling me stupid could have that effect...or some action you take could have that disturbing effect...and when there is that 'disturbance', is it the 'naming' of it as 'anger', or 'fear' that sets the 'train down the track' to a full blown something or other. The naming of it as 'anger' is already a condemnation of it? Without the naming, it would be just a sensation and would dissipate, right? When one bird tries to get to the feeder and another is already there, the one who is at the feeder chases the other away and it's over in an instant...but it's not that way with us: there's the disturbance, the 'recognition of the sensation as familiar, then the naming (with all the memories of similar past sensations, etc...) and the prolongation (exacerbation) of the event by thought? So what could (or should?) be a momentary event can in certain circumstances lead to hurt, hatred, revenge, retalliation, violence, war?

This excerpt from the QOTD is relative to 'identification':(my bold)

K." we saw that we either condemn or justify greed, thereby identifying ourselves with it. We saw, too, that awareness is a process of discovery which becomes blocked through identification. When we are rightly aware of greed, in its complexity, there is no struggle against it, no negative assertion of nongreed, which is only another form of self-assertiveness; and in that awareness we will find that greed has ceased."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 15 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #34
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
A quote on Silence, by Jean Klein

I have been reading over Jean Klein's statements about silence, which I posted at #11. One of the things he says is:

Silence is the word.

The broader quote is: “Silence is the home ground of all creative activity. What is truly creative is the word, is Truth. Silence is the word”.

To say that silence is the word puzzles me, because thought is words, and I see thought as the noise which interferes with our perception of silence. However, I am willing to question this, and I seem to be a point in my enquiry into silence where I have to say: “I have no idea at all what silence is”.

Klein's statement reminds me of an excerpt from the Christian bible:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”

This is just as puzzling for me. Words obviously developed as part of human evolution, they cane with the growth of the cortex. How could they be there at the very “beginning”? Does anyone see any meaning in this, or is it not worth going into?

Returning to the words of Jean Klein, that silence, or Silence, is the word. Has anyone any light to shine on this?

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #35
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote #3 : Quoting K

K: If you really understand that, if you are listening and learning the fact that silence can never be experienced, then what is the state of the mind that has no experience of silence, that is silence? I begin to see that a mind which is silent is not conscious that it is silent. ...(cut) ... If I am conscious that my mind is silent, then there is no silence. So silence is a state of mind in which there is the absence of the experiencer.

I was sitting quietly, watching the fact that any attempt the mind might make to 'capture' silence is not silence, it is simply more noise. ANY movement it tries to make towards silence is doomed to failure, as the maker of the movement is noise itself.

Seeing this, it seemed that the mind relaxed in its attempts to find silence, ceased to make any effort at all, in fact. And that 'relaxing' seemed to have significance, as if the mind was relaxing into silence.

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #36
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
ANY movement it tries to make towards silence is doomed to failure, as the maker of the movement is noise itself.

Exactly Clive. We can't pursue silence. If we describe a state of silence, it is already a memory of a silence. As you say in another trade:

K.:Nothing is essential for stillness but stillness itself. (cut). There are no means to silence; silence is when noise is not. Noise does not come to an end through the further noise of effort, of discipline, of austerities, of will. See the truth of this and there is silence.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 17 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: I was sitting quietly, watching the fact that any attempt the mind might make to 'capture' silence is not silence, it is simply more noise. ANY movement it tries to make towards silence is doomed to failure, as the maker of the movement is noise itself.

Good point...thanks for sharing, Clive. The maker is thought/noise/intellect.... very interesting. I need to look more into this point. I think I see it, but some kind of question seems to be in the back of my mind. And K's statement that Rich shared is a good one too: "Noise does not come to an end through the further noise of effort, of discipline, of austerities, of will." In the meantime I have a very busy day ahead...and many more perhaps...dealing with the threat of Corona virus which has already touched our town. So there will likely be lots of noise...thinking and preparing for a possible shut down and quarantine.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 17 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
. So there will likely be lots of noise...thinking and preparing for a possible shut down and quarantine.

Yet one asks, can silence be a part of our everyday life? Can we do all the things that we need to do, and still have our roots in silence? This is an open question, but it seems important to ask it.

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote, citing K:

See the truth of this and there is silence.

This is the essential point, isn't it. Not just in the issue of silence, but in all of K's enquiries, no? Looking at ourselves, at thought, we come across what is false. All effort, psychologically, is false. All "should be's", all attempts to become, are false. We come face to face with the fact that there is 'nothing that we can do" about some psychological issue, about the problems of the self.

Then what happens? Often, and with most people, we are unable to face this fact, no? We imagine it will be too depressing to face it. And so we escape, or try to escape. The escape may be coarse, or subtle. but in some way or other, we do not stay with the futility of thought trying to act.

So can we stay with 'what is', as K puts it? Strangely, I find, it is incredibly difficult to do this staying with what it, to face oneself exactly as one is.

Isn't this the essence of K's 'teachings'?

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Can we do all the things that we need to do, and still have our roots in silence?

I have no idea, but this virus is nothing to play with. It's like making preparations for a natural disaster. You have to have your total wits about you and try to plan as best you can to try to insure that your loved ones will be protected. You can't be blase about this when you have vulnerable loved ones to look out for. That doesn't mean one gets emotional, which would bring noise into the picture, and which would make 'right action' impossible. It's about being clearheaded I think....and very rational...whether that involves silence or not I can't say. When it comes to preparing to protect my loved ones from this horrific disease, silence is not my concern at all. If it was the WWII era and the Nazis were about to invade and occupy Paris and you need to get your family out, you don't concern yourself with being silent. I'm not trying to say that having one's roots in silence would NOT help. I would think right action might flow from silence rather than from too much thinking....but at the moment I'm concerned with preparing to protect my loved ones.

Let it Be

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #41
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I would think right action might flow from silence rather than from too much thinking....but at the moment I'm concerned with preparing to protect my loved ones.

Believing the noise leads to random attacks on people who look chinese and other acts from fear that make the situation worse. We are also a society - cooperation (at a distance) is essential - only looking out for number one at the expense of everything else may cause unnecessary suffering.

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #42
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So can we stay with 'what is', as K puts it? Strangely, I find, it is incredibly difficult to do this staying with what it, to face oneself exactly as one is.

Difficulty means effort - sounds like a balancing act - does balance require effort?

Also: Do I know exactly what I am? Or have I come to some sort of conclusion about what I am? Do I know what is? Or am I constantly interpreting what is?

Confusion is not clarity. Effort is not acceptation. Conclusion is not silence.

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #43
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Also: Do I know exactly what I am? Or have I come to some sort of conclusion about what I am? Do I know what is? Or am I constantly interpreting what is?

This is very good, Douglas. Constantly interpreting is it...you hit the nail on the head. Knowledge is not clarity. Knowledge prevents observation...understanding....looking, no?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 18 Mar 2020.

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #44
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Can we do all the things that we need to do, and still have our roots in silence?

Tom: I have no idea, but this virus is nothing to play with.

I just want to add, Clive, that if you're a physician working in the ER and they bring in a victim of a car accident who is bleeding profusely, you don't worry about being silent. Not saying that an emotional reaction is helpful....not in the least. It's obvious that emotion is noise and that prevents clear thinking and right action. But there may be intense thinking in a crisis

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 18 Mar 2020.

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #45
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote #42:
Difficulty means effort - sounds like a balancing act - does balance require effort?

This is a good point, Douglas. "Difficulty" does indeed suggest that one is trying achieve something.

And yet if this an effort going on, it is not something that "I' can drop, it seems (would such dropping constitute more effort, and more difficulty?). I find this a difficult point to explain, including to myself. Is effort, with its difficulty, part of our conditioning, and as such it arises automatically.

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Also: Do I know exactly what I am? Or have I come to some sort of conclusion about what I am? Do I know what is? Or am I constantly interpreting what is?

These are all difficult questions. "My" first response (The first response that comes) is what is this "I" that you refer to? Something apart from knowing, from concluding, from interpretation?

Let us focus on one issue. "I" am all this stuff, am I not? I am the effort, I am not the maker of effort, am I?

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #46
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So can we stay with 'what is', as K puts it? Strangely, I find, it is incredibly difficult to do this staying with what it, to face oneself exactly as one is.

I repost this, and perhaps others will give an input. Is it truly difficult to 'stay with what is'? is there a conditioned, automatic reaction to what is? Is this the movement of the self?

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #47
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It's obvious that emotion is noise and that prevents clear thinking and right action. But there may be intense thinking in a crisis

In my experiences of physical crises, thought appears to stop. At least there is no consciousness of thought happening. It feels as if the body alone is acting, and acting efficiently and swiftly, instantaneously almost, without the impediment of thought. I say that is how it feels; on analysis I see that even an action like applying the brakes of a car does require a sort of knowledge.

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #48
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find this a difficult point to explain, including to myself. Is effort, with its difficulty, part of our conditioning, and as such it arises automatically.

Progress : Effort to escape discontentment over time, has always been with us.
(Is us, by us, of us/self)

Look, see, let go

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #49
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1757 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is it truly difficult to 'stay with what is'?

What strikes me about your post Clive is the word "difficult"...There is no difficulty in being aware is there? The difficulty arises perhaps when thought imagines awareness or 'staying with' takes some kind of effort. That there should be some sort of 'experience' from being aware in the moment. Rather than a 'difficulty', awareness is more of a 'relaxation'isn't it? Many things are taking place each moment but thought perhaps 'tenses' and focuses rather than letting go. Not to take this in another direction but somewhere K. referred to the death of the body as "trivial" or some word like that. Which struck me : if the bodies death is insignificant then what is significant? Is it that the body dies as all living things do but the "urgency of change" he spoke about all those years has to do with a freedom from the body, that 'we' are not the physical body, 'we' are the 'world'. This 'identification' with the body must be seen through if man's consciousness is to change?..so that applies to your question I think in that any 'difficulty' in staying with what is, is only something to be 'aware of'. Another 'goal' of thought's to be negated? That what 'we' are is awareness?

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #50
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Many things are taking place each moment but thought perhaps 'tenses' and focuses rather than letting go

Yes...thought is always focused on a fragment which leads to inner and outer chaos it seems...and the world/society as we know it. But what is the difficulty Clive spoke of? Is it the effort to achieve a goal? A goal based upon an image/thought? When we don’t achieve enlightenment or whatever we are looking for, we say it’s difficult. Don’t know if I’m getting this right or not. What do you say?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 19 Mar 2020.

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #51
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Rather than a 'difficulty', awareness is more of a 'relaxation'isn't it?

Yes, Awareness is not something I do, it is rather something that I allow, or make way for.

Effort, struggle, difficulty is always correlated to Time/Goal. Even something mundane like planting a tree (for example) can be difficult if one is more attached to the goal than what is.
Suffering is always Psychological.

Look, see, let go

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #52
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What strikes me about your post Clive is the word "difficult"...There is no difficulty in being aware is there? The difficulty arises perhaps when thought imagines awareness or 'staying with' takes some kind of effort. That there should be some sort of 'experience' from being aware in the moment.

Yes, this seems right. As does Douglas when he says:

Effort, struggle, difficulty is always correlated to Time/Goal. Even something mundane like planting a tree (for example) can be difficult if one is more attached to the goal than what is.

BUT. The fact remains that it must be "difficult", extremely "difficult", to be aware, no? Simply because People don't seem to have done it much. If awareness, rather than thought, had been the guiding light of society, then surely we would have a very different sort of world by now? Because can problems thrive in the light of awareness? To repeat that quote from K :

in the light of silence all problems are dissolved

Does not awareness bring reveal this state of silence? Or perhaps that is a question all on its own.

Returning to my question above: "The fact remains that it must be "difficult", extremely "difficult", to be aware, no?", perhaps we can say to exist in the state of pure awareness is not difficult at all, but to move from the state of non-awareness into that other state is the difficulty? Or to think that one can do that?

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #53
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 100 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Returning to my question above: "The fact remains that it must be "difficult", extremely "difficult", to be aware, no?", perhaps we can say to exist in the state of pure awareness is not difficult at all, but to move from the state of non-awareness into that other state is the difficulty? Or to think that one can do that?
———-
Manfred: That might be one of the core questions. In the state of choiceless awareness everything is easy. We are acting in accordance with wholeness. No blockage, no fear, life is smoothly running by itself.

To explain this state is not possible, because any word used is not really describing this experience, which is not really a conscious one.

One of the difficulties in even understanding it intellectually could be our unconscious acting in efficiency. Efficiency always has a frame or an intention as an underlying basis. I think this kind of behavior is deeply conditioned in our mind. At least it was strongly supported in my education.

Choiceless awareness is the opposite of it and therefore a massive threat to our whole ego-system.

For me there is a basic “mistake” in our way of thinking. Usually we think there is the known and at the best beyond the known is the unknown. That means the unknown fills up the known. Our actions are consciously driven by the known.

When we are assuming that the basis is the unknown, then it is different. The known is always embedded in the unknown. Now we are able to question whatever our fixed thought-system is telling us. Then to find out what that is makes sense. Each single thought is surrounded by not knowing. To get in touch with the base of our life we have to be aware which fixed thought process is acting. Choiceless awareness suddenly is an option. But the only way to experience it is to try it

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #54
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
BUT. The fact remains that it must be "difficult", extremely "difficult", to be aware, no?

Two "enemies" of awareness come to mind :

1)I am far more interested in Myself.
My ideas, my problems, my emotional and intellectual activity is far more exciting and infinitely more important than boring old silence/awareness and just staring off into space like some moron.
Thought is what makes me me. It is what protects my livelihood, my family.

2)The habit of Self. The propensity of the self to continually arise.

However, awareness requires no skill nor effort. It is a natural (possibly fundamental) phenomenon.
The skill required is to notice that I am caught up in the habitual self, that I've plunged down some rabbit hole of thought (again).
The habit of allowing space for awareness, is the skill that needs to be cultivated.
(Of course, we must first be persuaded that this is a worthwhile habit to pursue)

Look, see, let go

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #55
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
The habit of allowing space for awareness, is the skill that needs to be cultivated.

This sounds artificial....just thinking...an idea...but I’m not an expert here. There is no method or path ....according to the ‘teaching’.

Let it Be

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #56
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1757 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
However, awareness requires no skill nor effort. It is a natural (possibly fundamental) phenomenon.
The skill required is to notice that I am caught up in the habitual self, that I've plunged down some rabbit hole of thought (again).

Maybe this fits with your and Manfred's post: What was glimpsed this morning was that the brain perhaps created this image of a static, abiding 'self' in the midst of a world that is constantly in motion. An entity that is 'stable' in the presence of constant movement. The invention of psychological time a past/present/future/ ...which artificially creates a motionless 'island' of 'me' with all flowing by it but this 'me' stays in place? If this is so then the 'skill' is to realize that this an artificial construction created for security and continuity but is false at any given moment?

I just read the QOTD and it is in much better language what I was struggling to say (as well as the "skill" Douglas mentions?):

K...."So, the point is this: Can you, as you are now sitting here listening to me, free yourself from time? Can you be aware of that state of being in which there is no time? If you are aware of that state of being, you will see that there is a tremendous revolution taking place instantaneously, because the thinker has ceased. It is the thinker that produces the process of becoming. So, time can be brought to an end, time has a stop - not chronological time, but psychological time."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 20 Mar 2020.

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #57
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
This sounds artificial.

Correct : "the cultivation of a skill" is artificial. We must not use methods or cultivate skills just because someone tells us to, because of some authority, or because we believe it will lead to whatever we imagine to be better.

First we come to the understanding that the artificial methods of Self and Thought are not condusive to clarity - That the Self is an artificial method based on separation and conflict. - This realisation itself prompts the habit of letting go of self and allowing awareness.

The Hypothesis is that awareness is not a method. That it is always present and just needs to be allowed to manifest.

Look, see, let go

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #58
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

The Hypothesis is that awareness is not a method. That it is always present and just needs to be allowed to manifest.

So this will put an end to a lifetime of conditioning and brainwashing? Perhaps for a moment....or even a few hours. It’s happened to me spontaneously quite a few times, but the self is not ended or understood this way. Self knowledge is knowledge of the self as it is.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 20 Mar 2020.

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #59
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1757 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So this will put an end to a lifetime of conditioning and brainwashing? Perhaps for a moment....or even a few hours. It’s happened to me spontaneously quite a few times, but the self is not ended or understood this way

That's the way it works. The self wants this stepping out of the 'stream' to be permanent...but it is the stream. And it has no intention of doing any such thing even if it knew what that meant and it can't. . The 'skill' is to see through the subterfuge, the traps of its 'time', its 'becoming', its desire for a result, etc... No?

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #60
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Self knowledge is knowledge of the self as it is.

What is self knowledge? Where is it held?

Look, see, let go

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