Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Can The Mind Be Quiet?


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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #31
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 901 posts in this forum Offline

Isn't the mind the oneway gateway from the unknown to us and aren't we blocking this by our own paricular affairs?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #32
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1757 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't the mind the oneway gateway from the unknown to us and aren't we blocking this by our own paricular affairs?

"Blocking" the gateway from the unknown, our "particular" noise (aka Thought) says "move along, nothing new to see here". Is that it Wim?

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #33
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 901 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
"Blocking" the gateway from the unknown, our "particular" noise (aka Thought) says "move along, nothing new to see here". Is that it Wim?

not exactly, being involved in certain things is the blockage, the mind, the brain, says nothing, it is too busy to notice the other possibility, prioritizing the wrong things.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #34
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

I agree with Wim here. We’re busy with our career ambitions our families and friends, socializing, sports, TV, music, movies, etc. The brain is occupied with all that

Let it Be

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #35
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Thought/mind/consciousness

Awareness dissolves thought. Under the light of awareness, thought loses its power. Where is mind?

I am the gateway between intelligence and what is. If my thoughts become too real, the door is closed.

Look, see, let go

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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 #36
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 901 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
I am the gateway between intelligence and what is. If my thoughts become too real, the door is closed.

There is no door only a gate, nothing has to be done to open anything !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 17 Mar 2020 #37
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We’re busy with our career ambitions our families and friends, socializing, sports, TV, music, movies, etc. The brain is occupied with all that

And why is this?

Are these things so attractive, so pleasure giving? Sooner or later all these occupations bring about problems, don't they? And then we caught up in the problems, and this is ANOTHER form of occupation. I posted a quote from K a little way back, where he says suffering is a form of occupation.

As I watch the mind, I get the impression that a very major movement, if not THE major movement, is the compulsion, the demand, that the mind (or shall we say the brain?) keeps occupied. Keeps occupied at all costs.

What that occupation is, is secondary to the demand for occupation, complete occupation.

Do others see this?

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

We’re busy with our career ambitions our families and friends, socializing, sports, TV, music, movies, etc. The brain is occupied with all that

Clive: And why is this?

Are these things so attractive, so pleasure giving? Sooner or later all these occupations bring about problems, don't they? And then we caught up in the problems, and this is ANOTHER form of occupation.

Its the viscous circle of fear and pleasure perhaps. There's suffering and fear and the escapes are what keeps us from facing the suffering that's always there under the surface? Then when the escape is unavailable the fear returns and we seek another escape.

Let it Be

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Its the viscous circle of fear and pleasure perhaps.

I would agree that fear is the major factor in the mind continually seeking occupation.

So what are escaping from, what are we frighted of, in this never-ending search for occupation of the mind? The usual K-related answer is the mind is afraid of facing its own emptiness. Does this mean its own triviality, or does it mean the absence of the self? Is it the fear of not existing, psychologically?

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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
The usual K-related answer is the mind is afraid of facing its own emptiness.

Thought is not afraid of anything. Thought IS fear.

Let it Be

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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 #41
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Thought is not afraid of anything. Thought IS fear.

Can you enlarge on this, Tom?

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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Thought is not afraid of anything. Thought IS fear.

I’d like to explore this issue. I may be mistaken. Thought is the memory of a frightening event which causes the body reacts by producing all kinds of painful or uncomfortable feelings which thought calls fear. But who is actually afraid? The me image? An image is afraid? Thought recognizes those bodily feelings as fear because of conditioning and says “I’m afraid”

Let it Be

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Sun, 22 Mar 2020 #43
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 106 posts in this forum Offline

Can the mind be quiet?

For most of us the answer is no. You finally get around to paying attention to it and notice the mind is going like crazy: thinking, thinking, thinking.

But the mind can be silent. One can sit down and pay attention, right here, right now. One can notice, be aware of what is. And naturally, the mental images, the internal dialogue, the desires and fears, all quiet down.

There is nothing more important in this life.

Why? Because a life lived with non-stop thought is a life of conflict and violence. A life of simple, clear awareness is a life of love and moment to moment transformation.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 22 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #44
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I’d like to explore this issue. I may be mistaken.

I think I misunderstood your statement that "thought is fear". I thought you meant that thought is only fear. Whereas thought is also pleasure, isn't it? Or is fear somehow contained IN pleasure? Thought is also pain, desire, violence, comparison, etc. And I see that fear is contained in all these things.

So can we say that thought always contains many, or at least several, qualities, in an holistic sort of way? But I am not quite grasping this.

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #45
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Whereas thought is also pleasure, isn't it? Or is fear somehow contained IN pleasure? Thought is also pain, desire, violence, comparison, etc. And I see that fear is contained in all these things.

In the beginning thought was memory...even before the word/label...before verbalization, right? So we absolutely need memory to function and survive physically, yet memory also creates fear and all the rest, including violence. So how does memory create the psyche...the self? That’s the crucial issue isn’t it?

Let it Be

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #46
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But the mind can be silent. One can sit down and pay attention, right here, right now. One can notice, be aware of what is. And naturally, the mental images, the internal dialogue, the desires and fears, all quiet down

Isn’t this simply a conclusion, Id? It’s thought that says that. But I don’t really know do I , until I actually observe my own mind...my thinking and emotions?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 23 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 #47
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Can the mind be quiet? If the question is important to us what happens?
I see 3 possibilities:
1) We can think about it. Which basically means allowing our conditioning to come to some conclusion, build some conceptual model perhaps, that leaves us with a Yes, No or Maybe.
2) Stay with the question. Allow oneself to be consumed by not knowing.
3) Be curious, experiment, observe.

Possibilities 2 & 3 obviously need some kind of insight into the nature of thought and a recognition of the observer.

Can the mind be quiet? = Can there be awareness without the observer?

Of course, as K insists : No method, no Knowledge, No Authority (Not even the Authority of our own conclusions about the Teaching - if our conclusions were of any use we would be free by now)

Look, see, let go

This post was last updated by Douglas MacRae-Smith Mon, 23 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #48
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote #43:
There is nothing more important in this life.

I go along with this statement. To become aware that thought is only thought, and to watch individual thoughts dissolve in the light of this awareness; that is what is essential.

And it is interesting, that even with this unprecedented global state of affairs, the pandemic, that does not change things. There is still nothing more important in life. And as K said: “Surely freedom from the self …. is the true function of man”. Can anything take away from us this 'pursuit', this concern?

But still I want to question your post, Id, s I think I have done before. I see that in this moment to moment awareness and ending, there is a state, a movement, - better say a moving state – that might be described as transformation. But love? How is this thing you call love part of what is happening? And what is this love? Presumably you are referring to a self-less 'state'?

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #49
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So how does memory create the psyche...the self? That’s the crucial issue isn’t it?

How does memory create the psyche? Interesting and basic question. Would you start a new thread for this, Tom?

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #50
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 106 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I see that in this moment to moment awareness and ending, there is a state, a movement, - better say a moving state – that might be described as transformation. But love? How is this thing you call love part of what is happening? And what is this love?

-

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Question 9 On Relationship:
If you do love, if there is such a love, then it is a marvellous thing. In such love there is no friction, there is not the one and the other, there is complete unity. It is a state of integration, a complete being. There are such moments, such rare, happy, joyous moments, when there is complete love, complete communion. What generally happens is that love is not what is important but the other, the object of love becomes important; the one to whom love is given becomes important and not love itself. Then the object of love, for various reasons, either biological, verbal or because of a desire for gratification, for comfort and so on, becomes important and love recedes. Then possession, jealousy and demands create conflict and love recedes further and further; the further it recedes, the more the problem of relationship loses its significance, its worth and its meaning. Therefore, love is one of the most difficult things to comprehend. It cannot come through an intellectual urgency, it cannot be manufactured by various methods and means and disciplines. It is a state of being when the activities of the self have ceased; but they will not cease if you merely suppress them, shun them or discipline them. You must understand the activities of the self in all the different layers of consciousness. We have moments when we do love, when there is no thought, no motive, but those moments are very rare. Because they are rare we cling to them in memory and thus create a barrier between living reality and the action of our daily existence.

If the mind is truly quiet, then loving activity is. That means there is spontaneous response to the situation, completely one with the situation, completely appropriate, without any motive or preconception, because in pure awareness there is no self out to get something for itself, therefore there is no interference in motion. Therefore love itself acts.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 24 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #51
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 106 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Isn’t this simply a conclusion, Id?

If so, it is worthless. The open, silent mind is valid and of the utmost importance only when it is present moment discovery.

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #52
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

So how does memory create the psyche...the self? That’s the crucial issue isn’t it?
How does memory create the psyche? Interesting and basic question. Would you start a new thread for this, Tom?

Will do so later time permitting. Memory creates desire/pleasure and fear which make up the self, right? Memory creates ambition and greed....the self. And when I react to you rather than listen and observe, that is the self in action. Re-action in relationship is the me in action, isn’t it? Most of us react, and society is based upon that....upon conditioning. Not sure I expressed this correctly....a busy day ahead and I can’t take the time to address this properly

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 24 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 24 Mar 2020 #53
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5772 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If so, it is worthless. The open, silent mind is valid and of the utmost importance only when it is present moment discovery.

Thought is a series of conclusions, isn't it? Either implicit or explicit. The state of awareness reveals these conclusions, does it not? And - sorry to keep plugging this phrase - in the light of awareness conclusions are no longer conclusions. Awareness means the continual ending of conclusions, and so a continual (although to me momentary) renewal of the mind.

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Wed, 25 Mar 2020 #54
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 251 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
The state of awareness reveals these conclusions, does it not?

What do you mean? I would say :"In the light of awareness, conclusions are absent"
So in a way, at a push, one could confabulate that, in the light of awareness, conclusions (or the self) are not being confirmed/strengthened - that one is not adding to the self - that the self is not omnipresent

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 25 Mar 2020 #55
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3318 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
"In the light of awareness, conclusions are absent"
So in a way, at a push, one could confabulate that, in the light of awareness, conclusions (or the self) are not being confirmed/strengthened - that one is not adding to the self - that the self is not omnipresent

Yes, for a moment or more one is not adding to the self...yet the self remains. Perhaps, until it is seen/understood that the self IS conclusions....conclusions and assumptions...and fear and desire.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 25 Mar 2020.

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