Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thought's Dilemma?


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Fri, 06 Mar 2020 #31
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
I wonder if we can look at it from a different angle. Thought must be the result of something. It is a reaction of memory. Then for thought to happen, there must have been some kind of accumulation in the first place. Isn't it?

Yes if thought believes in some 'ism' or other: nationalism, catholicism, judaism, capitalism, socialism, classism, etc. it will have "accumulated" knowledge around that 'ism'. If there is a psychological attachment to any of those and there is a feeling that they are under a threat, there could be a defensive (violent?) reaction, couldn't there? Now why has thought 'chosen' to believe in one thing rather than another? Why has it chosen to believe or attach itself to anything at all? Is it ignorance of the fact that its beliefs divide it from other 'believers'? But that that, doesn't matter because what is important to thought is the sense of security, the pleasure of 'belonging, of believing, that is all important? Behind these attachments and beliefs is 'fear' isn't it? The fear of being 'nothing'? So it clings to this or that and chooses to ignore the often disastrous effects resulting from its seemingly harmless,'clinging'.

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Fri, 06 Mar 2020 #32
Thumb_stringio Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why has it chosen to believe or attach itself to anything at all?

I don't see that it ( thought ) has chosen to believe or attach itself to anything. The christan or the muslin have been told from the childhood that god exist and watch them and that we gona go in some paradise after death, and all the rest, as an example. The mind can rebelled, but it will find another beleive that fit his need. We all have been conditioned in one way or another. So the mind is totaly conditioned.

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Fri, 06 Mar 2020 #33
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
The christan or the muslin have been told from the childhood that god exist and watch them and that we gona go in some paradise after death, and all the rest, as an example

Thought created the christian and muslim faiths...(and all the rest of them)

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Fri, 06 Mar 2020 #34
Thumb_stringio Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

True. Though I still don't see that it ( thought ) has chosen to believe or attach itself to anything, as you say. It have been conditioned that way. Can the mind free itself from its conditioning ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet (account deleted) Fri, 06 Mar 2020.

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Sat, 07 Mar 2020 #35
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
True. Though I still don't see that it ( thought ) has chosen to believe or attach itself to anything, as you say. It have been conditioned that way. Can the mind free itself from its conditioning ?

Thought/brain created all these things. It is the "conditioner". It is the 'stream of human thought". It wants to 'continue'...it sees that the body dies and it does not want to die...so it creates 'fairy tales' about what will happen to it. And it has been going like this forever...It has to end with us or it will just continue. As it has. Can it not stop with us?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 07 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #36
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Though I still don't see that it ( thought ) has chosen to believe or attach itself to anything, as you say. It have been conditioned that way. Can the mind free itself from its conditioning ?

Maybe this text will help you.

Bombay, India | 4th March 1953

The past can never be put aside. There is a watching of the past as it goes by, but not occupation with the past. So the mind is free to observe and not to choose. Where there is choice in this movement of the river of memory, there is occupation, and the moment the mind is occupied. it is caught in the past: and when the mind is occupied with the past, it is incapable of seeing something real, true, new, original, uncontaminated.

A mind that is occupied with the past - the past is the whole consciousness that says, "this is good;that is right; this is bad;"this is mine; `this is not mine' - can never know the Real. But the mind unoccupied can receive that which is not known, which is the unknown. This is not an extraordinary state of some yogi, some saint. Just observe your own mind; how direct and simple it is. See how your mind is occupied. And the answer, with what the mind is occupied, will give you the understanding of the past, and therefore the freedom from the past.

You cannot brush the past aside. It is there.

Bolding is mine!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3476 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Just observe your own mind; how direct and simple it is. See how your mind is occupied. And the answer, with what the mind is occupied, will give you the understanding of the past, and therefore the freedom from the past.

You cannot brush the past aside. It is there.

Thanks for sharing this excerpt Wim. Here’s one from the QOTD that is puzzling me somewhat:

Ommen Camp, Holland | 2nd Public Talk 27th July, 1936

From what source do our daily activities spring? What is the basis of our moral and religious thought? If we examine ourselves deeply, comprehensively, we will see that many of our activities and relationships have their origin in fear and illusion. They are the outcome of craving, of a ceaseless search for both outward and inward security and comfort. This search has produced a civilization in which each individual, subtly or grossly, is fighting for himself, thus engendering hatred, cruelty and oppression. This process has fostered a civilization of exploitation, wars, and organized religious superstition, the results of a false conception of individuality and fulfilment. The external conflict of races and religions, the division of peoples, the economic struggles, have their roots in false ideas of culture. Our lives are in continual conflict because of fear, belief, choice and subjugation. Our environment stimulates the process of ignorance, and our memories and wants renew and give continuity and individuality to consciousness.

Let it Be

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #38
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Here’s one from the QOTD that is puzzling me somewhat:

Hi Tom

don't you see that thoughts occupation of the mind is mostly busy with desire, greed etc. etc..

seeing that makes the mind alert and as a nice chinese proverb says:

when spring comes winter fades ;-)

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #39
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1856 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
K. This search (for psychological security and comfort) has produced a civilization in which each individual, subtly or grossly, is fighting for himself, thus engendering hatred, cruelty and oppression. This process has fostered a civilization of exploitation, wars, and organized religious superstition, the results of a false conception of individuality and fulfillment.

I don't think I grasp the 'entirety' of the reality that thought has created. That I live in. Invisible to me as water is to a fish. I am immersed in its fictional world. It has named and separated all 'things', where no-thing actually has a name, or is 'separate'. Names/separation is thought's invention. It created language to communicate and the words, the description, is taken to be an actual thing. Images, words, devoid of any reality are taken to be reality. It created a psychological past/present/future which "shatters" the actual present...Observation of thought without judgement reveals its 'dominance' over the mind. It dominated because it could, it can. It delivers 'pleasure' but not without its opposite,pain, doubt, anxiety, greed, loneliness, fear, violence, cruelty, etc. It is the past and as such is a dead thing. Yet it goes on in ignorance of what it has created.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3476 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
don't you see that thoughts occupation of the mind is mostly busy with desire, greed etc. etc..

Yes, but K is saying something here: “ Our environment stimulates the process of ignorance, and our memories and wants renew and give continuity and individuality to consciousness.” It sounds like the environment has a hold on us. That living in a society such as most of us do, it’s hard to break free, because the whole society is based upon the self and gives reinforcement to the self. If I don’t fight, as least somewhat, for a place in society, I won’t eat. I must have a career or, at least here in the U.S., I will be stuck in brutal poverty. “From what source do our daily activities spring?“ K asked. From the need to secure the basic necessities for ourselves and our families, right? Then when we have some free time, it’s off to the movies or the golf course...or similar pursuits.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 09 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #41
Thumb_stringio Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Wim, I understand that. My point was that the mind , or thought, didn't choose to be conditioned. And it can't choose neither not to be. It is conditioned. Choosing is part of his conditioning. It's conditioning comes from thousands of years, and from yesterday. The brain registred all the time, it is his function.

We can describe all what thought/mind is doing till the end of time , if I may say. It is an endless task. And it keep the mind occuped for sure. Isn't it an insight in the all process, and not choice, that bring freedom ? Perception is the first step, not the description. And don't we have to understand what we perceive? Not only inwardly , but also outwardly?

An act of perception erase the past. Not the outside war, but in ourselves.

And if we stop gathering? What happen to the mind when it stop gathering? When it empty itself. When it clean the place from moment to moment? It will stop being occupied with the past or the future or with thought. And then something new happen.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet (account deleted) Mon, 09 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #42
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at 40:
It sounds like the environment has a hold on us. That living in a society such as most of us do, it’s hard to break free, because the whole society is based upon the self and gives reinforcement to the self.

Tom,

Environment can only have “a hold on me” if I and the environment are fundamentally separate from each other. Likewise, “it’s hard to break free” of the environment where I see myself as totally separate from and in conflict with the environment. But aren’t I and the environment (society or “the world”) both abstractions which have been put together by the same thought process? We’re not talking about the physical forms of a human being or of the physical world. We’re talking about illusory abstractions which don’t actually exist in nature. And we’re questioning what is natural or choiceless action and relationship, and what it is that shapes or drives action and relationship.

“The process of ignorance” that K is talking about is both the result and the producer of conditioning. It is this process which shapes or drives action in relationship, isn’t it?

The process of ignorance is the process which puts together or produces the “I”, the self consciousness, the division into me and not-me, the fragmentation of thought into ideals, beliefs, desires, ambitions, and so on. It is this process of ignorance which produces the psychological “world”, society or stream, and also the individual "me". The same process is operating “in me” and “in the world”. It moves like a tide between the inner consciousness and the outer collectivity, between the particular brain and society (“the world”) or the stream. Without the billions of individual brains whose thought processes have been shaped or moulded by the process of ignorance, what would “the environment” BE?

The environment is the tradition, authority, pressure, beliefs, ideals, and so on, which has moulded each individual, me and you. If the actions of the billions of brains should ever somehow stop from being driven by this inner ignorance, wouldn’t the environment, society, the world, the stream inevitably be transformed? So transformation of the society can only come about, it seems, through the transformation of the particular brain. It might not happen. It might be too late. It might be too hard. It might be altogether wrong.

But the flame of enquiry cannot be willfully extinguished, can it? So doesn’t one act as best one can, in the limited light of one’s limited understanding? And let the problems sort themselves out in that light without "me" trying to sort them out? No matter what I decide to do, fight or not fight, there is no guarantee of security, as we have said so often.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 09 Mar 2020.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #43
Thumb_stringio Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Huguette . wrote:
So transformation of the society can only come about, it seems, through the transformation of the particular brain.

Yes. The society is the external projection of our inner state. We can't stop the conflict, the wars that are going on in the world. But if we understand ourselves and change, then it will affect the world. Isn't it the meaning of -we are the world- ? Only light can dissipate ignorance. But we can only start by ourselves, isn't it?.

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Mon, 09 Mar 2020 #44
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3476 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It is this process of ignorance which produces the psychological “world”, society or stream, and also the individual "me". The same process is operating “in me” and “in the world”.

I think I understand, yet we can't say that the slave is responsible for his enslavement. I know many folks...lower middle class, like myself...who feel trapped by the 'system' which exploits their labor, yet theyre afraid to step out of it for fear of unemployment and ultimately, homelessness. so in that sense I may sometimes feel that the society is separate from 'me'....the exploitation of a capitalist oligarchy society is creating misery in 'me' and many like me. A very touching song that Louis Armstrong made famous: https://www.google.com/search?q=black+and+blue+...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 09 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #45
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote #41:
My point was that the mind , or thought, didn't choose to be conditioned.

It could hardly do that, could it, because the mind IS that conditioning, is it not? Is there mind separate from its conditioning?

Rich Nolet wrote:
We can describe all what thought/mind is doing till the end of time ,

That description, those descriptions, ARE what the thought is doing, is it not?

Rich Nolet wrote:
And it keep the mind occupied for sure.

Did you see that quote from K that I posted on the thread "Can thought be aware of itself?"? K says that the mind even uses suffering as an occupation. Here it is again:

The mind uses suffering, as it uses joy, to enrich itself, because the mind thinks that without being occupied it is poor, it is empty, dull. This very occupation of the mind creates its own destruction. Sorrow is not a thing to be occupied with, any more than Joy. The mind must understand why there is sorrow, and not keep on being occupied with sorrow. The mind wants security, whether it is in suffering or in joy. So, suffering becomes the way of security. This is not a harsh thing I am saying, for if you think about it, if you look into it you will see how the mind plays a trick on itself.

It is only the unoccupied wind that is intelligent, that is sensitive. It is no use asking how the mind can be unoccupied. In the very how the mind is playing a trick on itself.

PS: Rich, it would be be helpful if you could use the 'Quote' button when you make a reply, so others can put your post in context - unless you start a new thread of course.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #46
Thumb_stringio Rich Nolet Canada 31 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
It could hardly do that, could it, because the mind IS that conditioning, is it not? Is there mind separate from its conditioning?

Yes the mind is that conditioning. But the mind can be of different quality. It can be dull. It can be sharp. It can compare, evaluate , mesure. It can perceive, create thing, learn a technic. And it can be quiet... can it ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet (account deleted) Tue, 10 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #47
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

don't you see that thoughts occupation of the mind is mostly busy with desire, greed etc. etc..

Yes, but K is saying something here: “ Our environment stimulates the process of ignorance, and our memories and wants renew and give continuity and individuality to consciousness.”

Well, can we not ignore those stimulations?
If i had not done that i had at least a better retirement and possible one million euro more on my bank account.
But i'm sure it wouldn't better my feeling honest, although i cannot proof that - the alternative is not executed - and it was not the reason to do so.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #48
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 913 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Yes the mind is that conditioning. But the mind can be of different quality. It can be dull. It can be sharp. It can compare, evaluate , mesure. It can perceive, create thing, learn a technic. And it can be quiet... can it ?

Hi Rich,

Beautiful put, the mind is capable to do many things, also being quiet!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #49
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
And it can be quiet... can it ?

This is an enquiry I would like to share with people. Perhaps starting tomorrow.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #50
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3476 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Yes the mind is that conditioning. But the mind can be of different quality.

If it is conditioned how can it be other than that? It either is conditioned or it is not.

And it can be quiet... can it ?

This is an open question as I see it. Clive above said he may start a thread about it, so it might be good to go into it. We only normally know the noise of conflict, not quiet...or the movement of desire and the pursuit of goals. If I'm struggling with a conflict in my life, there's the noise of that...all the emotional turmoil and thoughts about it. How does quiet enter the picture?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 10 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #51
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at 44:
...we can't say that the slave is responsible for his enslavement. I know many folks...lower middle class, like myself...who feel trapped by the 'system' which exploits their labor, yet theyre afraid to step out of it for fear of unemployment and ultimately, homelessness. so in that sense I may sometimes feel that the society is separate from 'me'....the exploitation of a capitalist oligarchy society is creating misery in 'me' and many like me.

Of course Tom I understand what you say about the system and the oligarchs, and about the fears and exhaustion faced by the exploited, the jobless and the homeless. There are also those who have been thrown into dark dungeons that no one knows about, those who are being tortured, bombed, starved, and no help is coming to them. Sensitivity and compassion act to inform us that this is not right, it is evil. Evil cannot produce or BE good, no matter what propaganda says.

The fact is we don’t know what to do about all this, and we must face the whole of it - the fact of it being so, the fact of being unable to change it, the fact of not understanding “why” - just like we must face the fact of death.

So I’m not saying that you and I are as ruthless as the oligarchs, the gangsters, the dictators, the torturers, the serial killers, the abusers in the home, the human traffickers, and so on. But as tired, afraid and overwhelmed as we are, aren’t we also inwardly conflicted - sometimes arrogant, cruel, angry, irrational, jealous, vain, insensitive, deceitful, greedy, superficial, and so on? Don’t those movements operate in us? Are those inner movements fundamentally different from the inner movements of the oligarchs?

There’s nothing we can do to end THEIR insensitivity, greed, corruption, and so on, and they’re not interested in any case. Can one pursue greed, fame and power at any cost, and also be interested in eternity, the timeless - except as a selfish strategy, as a sort of quid pro quo?

But can we find out if there is something we can “do” about our OWN insensitivity and ignorance? K said something like, if 5 people turn their face towards eternity, that could change the world. I don’t know if it’s so. I don’t know if such an inner transformation in a handful can change “the world” and, even if it can, if it’s not too late.

But we who are afraid and tired from the circumstances of life don’t idly watch our loved ones, or even strangers in front of us, writhing in pain and say, “it’s too late, there’s nothing I can do”. So it’s not a question of whether it's too late or not for it to “work”. If we are open to it, sensitive to it, life is demanding action, and action is not based on self. So we still do whatever we can to alleviate their suffering. There are those who cannot even do that much - they can’t help their child, friend, wife, husband, neighbour who is writhing in pain in front of them from a bombing, or being held in a dungeon where they are being tortured, or starving. There is not a single thing they can do, no action they can take, no one to appeal to.

But there is a flame driving us, isn’t there? That flame is discontent, sensitivity, compassion, the unknown. It is not "my" choice or "our" choice. And it does not leave us. It cannot be ignored, though we may try. No?

So can we turn our gaze from the oligarchs and the evil of their ways, turn our face away from “the world” towards eternity? We still see what is happening. We see that the propaganda is false, clearly not the truth. Don’t we want to understand the truth about action, relationship, consciousness, compassion, and so on, about living and dying? I say “we” meaning “I and I”, whoever of our fellow men are interested.

We’re looking at all the facts pertinent to our existence, including “the process of ignorance”. Is it actually a fact? If it isn’t, or if it’s just a minor insignificant fact, then we don’t have to bother with it at all. So is it a fact? Is it insignificant? Can it be ignored without consequence? Or is there a dire consequence to ignoring it?

Are we ABLE to simply ignore the flame of discontent which has made us aware and question? We can’t and don’t look into evil and corruption every minute of every day. But where questions arise naturally, spontaneously, don’t we naturally - without will or choice - look into them? Haven’t you yourself said things like, “Isn’t that what we are doing here”?


A cursory look at history reveals that the problems of anger, hate, fear, greed, desire, conceit, corruption, jealousy, brutality, and so on are nothing new. We see that today we still can do nothing against these emotions through effort, will, desire, method, and so on.

Mankind’s religious and literary histories show that these problems have been part of man’s psyche for at least thousands of years. Romulus killed Remus, Cain killed Abel, Delilah betrayed Samson, Jacob deceived his father and stole from Esau, the pharaohs and kings treated their slaves as disposables, and so on. “There is nothing new under the sun.”

In the ancient text of Ecclesiastes, we see a reflection of the same bitterness and despair as man feels today:

“Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun?
…..
All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.”

All this is the history of the process of ignorance, isn’t it?

Now as then, “the world” and the individual are in sorrow and suffer. Now as then, it is seen that whatever marvelous things thought is capable of producing, it is incapable of fundamentally and completely solving the problems brought about by the process of ignorance.

And as soon as there is any insight into this, thought rushes in to “organize” it, like in K’s joke about the devil in which the devil picks up a piece of the truth and he decides he is going to organize it.

So there is insight and thought immediately says, “Now that I have seen the truth about this particular thing, from now on, I will deal with it ‘this way’”. And the decision to act “this way” to counter ignorance is the organizing of the insight, isn't it? It is turning insight into a fixed conclusion, attitude, policy, strategy, point of view. And this fixed point of organization is added to the dead heap of consciousness. This is also part of the process of ignorance.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 10 Mar 2020.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #52
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3476 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I’m not saying that you and I are as ruthless as the oligarchs, the gangsters, the dictators, the torturers, the serial killers, the abusers in the home, the human traffickers, and so on. But as tired, afraid and overwhelmed as we are, aren’t we also inwardly conflicted - sometimes arrogant, cruel, angry, irrational, jealous, vain, insensitive, deceitful, greedy, superficial, and so on? Don’t those movements operate in us? Are those inner movements fundamentally different from the inner movements of the oligarchs?

Indeed they’re not.

There’s nothing we can do to end THEIR insensitivity, greed, corruption, and so on, and they’re not interested in any case. Can one pursue greed, fame and power at any cost, and also be interested in eternity, the timeless - except as a selfish strategy, as a sort of quid pro quo?

But can we find out if there is something we can “do” about our OWN insensitivity and ignorance? K said something like, if 5 people turn their face towards eternity, that could change the world. I don’t know if it’s so. I don’t know if such an inner transformation in a handful can change “the world” and, even if it can, if it’s not too late.

But we who are afraid and tired from the circumstances of life don’t idly watch our loved ones, or even strangers in front of us, writhing in pain and say, “it’s too late, there’s nothing I can do”. So it’s not a question of whether it's too late or not for it to “work”. If we are open to it, sensitive to it, life is demanding action, and action is not based on self. So we still do whatever we can to alleviate their suffering. There are those who cannot even do that much - they can’t help their child, friend, wife, husband, neighbour who is writhing in pain in front of them from a bombing, or being held in a dungeon where they are being tortured, or starving. There is not a single thing they can do, no action they can take, no one to appeal to.

But there is a flame driving us, isn’t there? That flame is discontent, sensitivity, compassion, the unknown. It is not "my" choice or "our" choice. And it does not leave us. It cannot be ignored, though we may try. No?

So can we turn our gaze from the oligarchs and the evil of their ways, turn our face away from “the world” towards eternity? We still see what is happening. We see that the propaganda is false, clearly not the truth. Don’t we want to understand the truth about action, relationship, consciousness, compassion, and so on, about living and dying? I say “we” meaning “I and I”, whoever of our fellow men are interested.

We’re looking at all the facts pertinent to our existence, including “the process of ignorance”. Is it actually a fact? If it isn’t, or if it’s just a minor insignificant fact, then we don’t have to bother with it at all. So is it a fact? Is it insignificant? Can it be ignored without consequence? Or is there a dire consequence to ignoring it?

Meaning no self knowledge? No understanding of our actions in life and our actions in relationship? Our relationship to our spouse or child or neighbor...is it a “process of ignorance” and confusion and conflict? Or is there intelligent action and compassion? That’s all we have to work with in this mad world ... our daily living ...our relationships. It’s the microcosm within the macrocosm of society.

Let it Be

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #53
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #29:
Why else would we visit here? Idle curiosity....to have a nice chat about K.? Why do we seek self understanding? We see the endless suffering man creates with his wars and violence and selfishness, right? And we know we are a part of it. And we know we ourselves suffer. Do we not want to change? K asked countless times, 'Why don't you change?' didn't he? Sorry, I'm not sure that enquiring into the wrong turn man has obviously taken will increase suffering as you seem to say, Clive. Can you say anything further about this?

I think what I was saying is that whenever thought tries to act, outside of purely technical action, it is bound to create more problems. By 'thought acting' I mean thought in the guise of the thinker, the controller.

I cannot prove this. But when one looks at the goings-on in the world, and in the human mind (my mind) I certainly get this impression. I certainly do not get the impression that all this tremendous, frantic, activity of thought is lessening human sorrow in any way. Do you?

You talk about enquiring, Tom. I do not regard enquiring as 'an action of thought'. I mean it is not thought trying to achieve anything, not trying to become in any way, is it? Rather it is questioning the whole business of effort, trying to become. So perhaps the movement of enquiry is free of the contagion of thought, of the self.

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #54
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote #51:
Of course Tom I understand what you say about the system ............

Thank you for this post, Huguette. It brought tears to my eyes. All is as you say. But another feature that appears to built into the human mind is denial. It seems the human race would rather live with illusions than with the facts. And it is only the facts which can transform.

Surely it is possible for us, for me, to face those facts, to live with 'what is"?

"Surely freedom from the self .... is the true function of man?"

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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 #55
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5949 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Meaning no self knowledge? No understanding of our actions in life and our actions in relationship? Our relationship to our spouse or child or neighbor...is it a “process of ignorance” and confusion and conflict?

Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but K said that 'ignorance' is the absence of self-understanding.

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Fri, 13 Mar 2020 #56
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 892 posts in this forum Offline

Wim,

Can you tell me how you do the "quote within the quote" as you did in your post #47?

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To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)