Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Violence....in me...in the world


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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #1
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Ken posted this appalling example of human violence today in the General Forum. Can we discuss the roots of violence here? Hopefully without Mina commenting that we are avoiding taking responsibility for the violence in ‘me’. Here’s the link. https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/asia/india-rape-...

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 04 Feb 2020.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #2
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Hopefully without Mina commenting that we are avoiding taking responsibility for the violence in ‘me’.

But that's the whole point, isn't it Tom? The "responsibility" is yours, it's thoughts,it's the 'self. There is no you/me separate from the rest. That's the illusion that is being discovered here. 'You' are the world, the rapist and the one being raped...the one passing out the soap at the door of the gas chamber and the one's going in. Isn't that what "you are the world" means? While the divided mentality exists, so will the "darkness". The 'me' illusion that you feel is the same 'me' illusion felt by others. It is a strange sensation indeed to realize that you are not who or what you have been thinking you are. That false division of thinker/thought is the source of the anger, the misery, the confusion...It is the wrong turn being taken every moment that 'thought' identifies with the senses. As K. said that is the arising of the self/'me'. That is the "darkness" as I see it.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

I understand Dan. Yet K spoke endlessly of the causes of division and violence...the ideal or belief etc. of course we can observe the conflict in ourselves. If we have an argument with our spouse we can look into it...enquire. And we can discuss your point as well. I’m suggesting here that we look at the cause of violence in the mind of man...in me ...in the world.... however you want to look at it. There’s violence...the fact. We can observe the fact in ourselves AS WELL AS discuss here, no?

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
While the divided mentality exists, so will the "darkness".

Can you say why you feel this is so? Why does the divided mentality lead to violence, for example?

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #5
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why does the divided mentality lead to violence, for example?

Because as long as the illusory self, thinker, 'me' persists, it accumulates experience for its own illusory search for security , protection, certainty, etc.: you with your beliefs, me with mine...then we fight to preserve what we feel is important, the third reich, socialism, democracy, etc. All division.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We can observe the fact in ourselves AS WELL AS discuss here, no?

So, I will continue to discuss as I see fit. We are taking a journey together, as K used to say. Let’s not map out the journey in advance, please, since it’s a journey into the unknown. You are free to discuss or not.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #7
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
we fight to preserve what we feel is important, the third reich, socialism, democracy, etc. All division.

I see that. It’s obviously so outwardly. How does this divided mentality cause violence in ‘me’?

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #8
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How does this divided mentality cause violence in ‘me’?

What "violence" are you referring to?

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

What "violence" are you referring to?

Whatever may be present at any time....even the potential to strike out in anger...to hurt another...any manifestation of violence in me. If someone calls me a dirty Jew do I punch him? How does division create the criminal? The man who hits his spouse or child? You brought up division and violence. Let’s go into it.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 04 Feb 2020.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #10
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Whatever may be present at any time....even the potential to strike out in anger...to hurt another...any manifestation of violence in me. If someone calls me a dirty Jew do I punch him?

Rather than a hypothetical "what will I do?", isn't it a matter of seeing, being aware, of what you do do? We don't know what we'll do, how we'll feel,in the next minute. I'm not clear what you are saying. Do you want a certainty about 'how' you'll be when and if you're insulted? Is such a thing possible? Do you want to be non-violent, say?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 04 Feb 2020.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I'm not clear what you are saying. Do you want a certainty about 'how' you'll be when and if you're insulted? Is such a thing possible? Do you want to be non-violent, say?

K asked in a discussion, “How far will you go to be free of violence?” And he went into the issue of violence in great depth

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #12
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote at #1:
Ken posted this appalling example of human violence today in the General Forum. Can we discuss the roots of violence here? Hopefully without Mina commenting that we are avoiding taking responsibility for the violence in ‘me’.

Do we have to look into every outward manifestation of violence to understand the root of violence? The root is thought, isn’t it? At least, we have said so many times. Is it not so?

We can condemn each “new” expression of violence which the news of the world brings to us every day; we can say how terrible each one is, what animals the perpetrators are, what inferior human beings they are, and so on. Whatever we say about the violence we see outwardly, it does not lead to a deeper understanding of the root of it which is within the human being. Whenever I hear about the outward manifestations of violence, do I also see my inner reaction to it? My reaction to violence - even if it is "only" thought - is also violence. The root of it - the inner division - is the same. I can’t do anything about anyone else understanding or being interested in understanding it. As K said, “I am not my brother’s keeper”. Nonetheless, if I truly and deeply understand it, the root must wither. Disregarding the inner movement, being inattentive to it, is what nourishes or sustains the root, isn't it? So that the action which comes of self-understanding is no longer rooted in division. And this must (or perhaps might) have an effect on the global network of relationship.

And violence is not just physical. There is also psychological violence - teasing, humiliating, belittling, frightening, controlling, threatening, comparing you who is nothing to me who is something, and so on. Is the root of all that any different than the root of beating, raping, enslaving, occupying, shooting, and so on? Physical or psychological, isn’t the root of it desire - to elevate myself, aggrandize myself, protect myself, to become important, admired, superior, powerful, envied, feared, and so on. Do you see it differently?

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #13
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote at #2:
'You' are the world, the rapist and the one being raped...the one passing out the soap at the door of the gas chamber and the one's going in. Isn't that what "you are the world" means?

I say “No, that’s not what it means!” For many of the things we talk about here, I hesitate, I doubt --- but not about this. I see it as a gross distortion of the meaning of “you are the world”. To say that perpetrator and victim are both responsible for the brutality inflicted by the one on the other is absurd, a shock to the heart. I’m sorry. I feel compelled to say so.

As they are set on fire, being raped, tortured, herded into the gas chambers, drawn and quartered, beheaded, and so on, are you saying that - in that very moment - the victims are responsible for the violence against them?

Don’t abusive husbands say it about their wives --- that “she” made him do it, that “she” knows just which buttons to push? There is division in THAT.

Didn’t Hitler say that about Jews, Gypsies and others? Didn’t slave owners say it about their “imported” Africans? Don’t dictators say that about those they order to be tortured? Don’t many Americans and Israelis today say that about the Palestinians (see Jared Kushner's recent statement about the Palestinians in the context of his proposed 2-state "solution")? And so on and so on. There is division in all THAT.

The perpetrators and their acolytes say that the victims "have it coming to them". But it is the perpetrators' actions which are fueled by divided thought, the root of darkness, of evil.

I say that all the victims of violence in their agony are NOT in a state of psychological division or illusory selfhood. I say this about victims of violence, not about people who go through life viewing themselves as perpetual “victims”:

“Victim: a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action” (Lexico definition on Google)

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 04 Feb 2020.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #14
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
the victims are responsible for the violence against them?

No I'm saying that the 'divided mind' with the 'self is responsible for it all. The individual you/me don't actually exist. The world of Man is in "darkness". As long as the division of "observer/observed , the cult of individuality, (me/mine) persists, so will the suffering and violence. The relative 'good' and the relative 'evil'. Circumstances of life will determine what side you fall on. But you are a partner in it all, as much as you might protest. The 'leaders' are chosen. If they do what you want, you/we applaud, worship them. If they don't you/we have a revolution, etc.,etc. The atrocities will continue unless this division in our "damaged" brains is seen through and realized...as I see it.

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Tue, 04 Feb 2020 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Huguette. I say “No, that’s not what it means!” ("You are the world")

And I say yes that is exactly what it means. There is no division, it is the 'self' that divides. It is the root of the evil that you (self) are objecting to. And this game has been going on for a million years. "You are the world", he says, and in the "darkness", he believes, it is possible to listen.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 05 Feb 2020.

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #16
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan,

I don’t understand. I see that division in thought is the root of the violence that is the world. Are you saying that, in the moment a woman is being raped and then set on fire, in the moment a man is being blinded by hot irons, in the moment a child is belittled by a teacher - in that moment, the victims of violence are acting out of divided thought, just as their attackers are?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 05 Feb 2020.

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #17
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don’t understand. I see that division in thought is the root of the violence that is the world. Are you saying that, in the moment a woman is being raped and then set on fire, in the moment a man is being blinded by hot irons, in the moment a child is belittled by a teacher - in that moment, the victims of violence are acting out of divided thought, just as their attackers are?

No at that moment they are the victims of this divided mentality, victims of the 'self'. Whether or not, they are also divided is only something they can know.

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #18
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 212 posts in this forum Offline

We also suffer for the evil we have perpetrated - except maybe psychopaths

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #19
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Huguette,

Copying your reply here again because of its clarity and beauty.

Do we have to look into every outward manifestation of violence to understand the root of violence? The root is thought, isn’t it? At least, we have said so many times. Is it not so?

We can condemn each “new” expression of violence which the news of the world brings to us every day; we can say how terrible each one is, what animals the perpetrators are, what inferior human beings they are, and so on. Whatever we say about the violence we see outwardly, it does not lead to a deeper understanding of the root of it which is within the human being. Whenever I hear about the outward manifestations of violence, do I also see my inner reaction to it? My reaction to violence - even if it is "only" thought - is also violence. The root of it - the inner division - is the same. I can’t do anything about anyone else understanding or being interested in understanding it. As K said, “I am not my brother’s keeper”. Nonetheless, if I truly and deeply understand it, the root must wither. Disregarding the inner movement, being inattentive to it, is what nourishes or sustains the root, isn't it? So that the action which comes of self-understanding is no longer rooted in division. And this must (or perhaps might) have an effect on the global network of relationship.

And violence is not just physical. There is also psychological violence - teasing, humiliating, belittling, frightening, controlling, threatening, comparing you who is nothing to me who is something, and so on. Is the root of all that any different than the root of beating, raping, enslaving, occupying, shooting, and so on? Physical or psychological, isn’t the root of it desire - to elevate myself, aggrandize myself, protect myself, to become important, admired, superior, powerful, envied, feared, and so on.

Mina: I was just about to write something similar to what you say in your first paragraph, in my own way of expression of course..

I would say there is no pull to watch any 'appalling violent videos' when/if there is already an increased sensitivity in one to ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE, the root of which is seen to be in the inner division of the observer and observed. That very division IS a creation of resistance to what is true and therefore a continuous act of violence. This is the root where ultimately all coarser and harsher expressions of violence (physical, wars etc)stem from.

Without going back to this root and letting it be totally uprooted through self-understanding, there is no use commenting on the various expressions of violence in the world..

(To be reluctant to watch violence does not mean 'one wants to be blind to what is happening in the world' or any mental denial of anything. Just adding this because of sensing what interpretations might follow in general)

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Wed, 05 Feb 2020.

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #20
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Dan,

No at that moment they are the victims of this divided mentality, victims of the 'self'. Whether or not, they are also divided is only something they can know.

Mina: Quoting the above of your several replies in the thread. Just wanted to say it has been a joy to read your replies and feel the clarity in them.

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #21
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The root is thought, isn’t it?

Yes, it seems to be the case. I think K even said once, that “thought is violence.” Not totally sure about that. I want to share something Dan posted on another thread concerning the root of violence as the ‘me’. I’m still not totally clear on his point for some reason, so I’m sharing it for discussion.

Dan: This is what had occurred to me when considering the violence in the world and its causes. When it's realized that the 'me' feeling/image/construction/bundle/center, whatever name is put on it, when that is seen through as the root of all this suffering and violence, then if there is no 'me' as an entity apart,...then there is also no 'you' and no 'they'. There is just human thought/thinking, identifying itself with the sensations of the body and creating this illusion of a living, separate entity. K. has said this was the result of the brain seeking security. Why did it need this false security?

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Wed, 05 Feb 2020 #22
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And violence is not just physical. There is also psychological violence - teasing, humiliating, belittling, frightening, controlling, threatening, comparing you who is nothing to me who is something, and so on.

Indeed! The condemnation, the comparison, judgment, the should and should not...the ideal. “You must be a success” You must achieve”, either in the world or ‘spiritually’.

Is the root of all that any different than the root of beating, raping, enslaving, occupying, shooting, and so on? Physical or psychological, isn’t the root of it desire -

Not clear on that point about desire, Huguette.

to elevate myself, aggrandize myself, protect myself, to become important, admired, superior, powerful, envied, feared, and so on. Do you see it differently?

I see it as the need to find security in an idea or belief or ideal or goal. And if you stand in my way, you are an enemy...if you are on my ‘team’...if you are useful to me in achieving my goal or fulfilling my desire, you are a friend. Well, perhaps it IS related to desire after all.

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Thu, 06 Feb 2020 #23
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote at #2:
'You' are the world, the rapist and the one being raped...

In looking at the problem of violence, the importance of “I am the world” is that it reveals that "I" am the world, I am violent, not to see that the rapist and his victim are the world.

It is the violence of the rapist - not of the victim - that I have been conditioned to see as something that is foreign to "me". It is the violence of the rapist that I have been conditioned to see as something that does not inhabit "me", something that is external to "me". This is the mentality which says, “The rapist is not like me. I am not like the rapist”. What is important to see is that “I am violent” - not that "the victim is" - like the rapist.

We have been educated to see ourselves as separate and different from the violent world, and so we blame and condemn "others" for the violence that pervades the world. This mentality of blame is a reflection of the very inner division which is the root of violence. Whether violence is physical or psychological, the same root is in all of us … as you also say. It is in this way that “I am the world”.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 06 Feb 2020.

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