Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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'Begin to weave and the divine will provide the thread'


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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #1
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

'Begin to weave and the divine will provide the thread'

What a beautiful proverb, pointing to great depths..

The divided mind could say...:

'I cannot weave because I have no thread'

'How can I get the thread first in order to weave'

'We have been so conditioned to have the thread first, what would suddenly make us do otherwise'

--

It is the division between observer and observed or cause and effect that says the above as it can only move in psychological time..FIRST the thread and THEN the weaving..

Being divided, the psychological mind cannot realise a unitary movement of the whole which is the timeless weaving of the most undescribably beautiful cloth of life woven with a magical thread that appears from moment to moment, in total trust and love, leaving no trace, no thread behind..

Tom, if you read this..

You were wondering in another thread about 'what can cause this objective observation when we have been so conditioned to judge, to react, instead of observing ourselves' (not your exact words, correct them if not accurate enough). I hope the above sheds some light on your question also.

The problem is that when we ask questions like 'what will cause something to happen',if the question comes from a divided mind of an observer, then the split between cause and effect is already contained inherently in ANY question (or answer or any other kind of movement of it).

Therefore it is this very division that is calling for our total attention and understanding instead of further pondering about the causes within and by the cause/effect separation itself.

Otherwise it is all just continuation of the same movement of thought, even when appearing as 'enquiry into its nature'.

The content of what thought says is not that important.To focus on the content only is to lose sight of the whole.

Therefore, when reading this, if you try to understand the content, which is something composed of the mere words, all you get is more words.

So listen with your being as you read, not only with the part of the brain where thought is stored as memory.

It is the SEEING IN WHOLENESS that brings on a natural end to all that is not IT ITSELF

In other words its brings an end to the divided mind..

However, this does not happen in the way of 'something causing something else' (cause and effect as separate) but in the 'way' of the division itself between cause and effect ending in it..

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Tom, if you read this..

You were wondering in another thread about 'what can cause this objective observation when we have been so conditioned to judge, to react, instead of observing ourselves' (not your exact words, correct them if not accurate enough).

There is suffering of some sort...let's begin with what is....be it fear or anger or intense craving, greed, despair, violence, war. No need to label it....we feel pain of some sort....we hurt...and we may cause hurt to others. That's the state of mankind.

The problem is that when we ask questions like 'what will cause something to happen',if the question comes from a divided mind of an observer, then the split between cause and effect is already contained inherently in ANY question (or answer or any other kind of movement of it).

So are you basically saying what K said about observing without the observer? Without the 'divided mind? And most of us don't observe this way, I'm assuming or we wouldnt be here or on youtube watching K. videos. We'd be free of conflict and have no need for K. But how does this relate to your story about the weaver? I'm a bit confused. It seems a bit like the Christian who tells the one who suffers, "Let go and let God". Is what you're saying based upon some kind of belief or idea? That path has never worked for man, afaik.

Therefore it is this very division that is calling for our total attention and understanding instead of further pondering about the causes within and by the cause/effect separation itself.

Yes...the understanding of the conditioned observer who is separating himself from the 'problem'...the suffering...the fear or anger or whatever the conflict is. This is self-knowledge. Without self knowledge we'll only weave a cloth of confusion and suffering as we've been doing for millenia. Again I'm not understanding your story somehow.

Being divided, the psychological mind cannot realise a unitary movement of the whole which is the timeless weaving of the most undescribably beautiful cloth of life woven with a magical thread that appears from moment to moment, in total trust and love, leaving no trace, no thread behind..

Well, there you go. You said it yourself. Therefore it might be best to understand the cause or causes of division in consciousness.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #3
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Tom>So are you basically saying what K said about observing without the observer? Without the 'divided mind?

Mina: Yes, only observation that does not come from the mind/thought can understand the whole of the mind. It is only through/in this kind of observation, which is pure energy without content, that the mind/world is transcended.

But none of this has any meaning unless it is really happening for you, in you.

Tom:And most of us don't observe this way, I'm assuming or we wouldnt be here or on youtube watching K. videos. We'd be free of conflict and have no need for K.

Mina: The energy needed for the transcendence of mankind is already dissipated in the division between oneself and others (observer and observed).

In other words, if you care intensily and urgently enough for these others including yourself inseparably, the energy will be focused on your 'own' transformation which is the only transformation of the world. Because indeed, you are the world.

Instead of 'reaching out' in division, to the imagined others or out to the world as if separate from what one is, one has to return back to one's own thoughtless essence in which the world created by the violence of inner division, can dissolve

The pure energy is indeed freedom from conflict and has no need of K, or of anything else that could be experienced to be separate from oneself. This happens because the very division between inner and outer, both inner and outer, cease to exist.

It is an actuality here, for this person, no theory.

Tom:But how does this relate to your story about the weaver? I'm a bit confused. It seems a bit like the Christian who tells the one who suffers, "Let go and let God". Is what you're saying based upon some kind of belief or idea? That path has never worked for man, afaik.

Mina: Your interpretation is not correct, no interpretation is.

For a belief to exist there must be someone believing in something, so a thinker/thought division. Beliefs are realities creates by thought, believed in by thought.

The pure energy has no content, nor is it contained anywhere, so there is absolutely no belief in it.

The comments on the proverb were intended to shed light on the way thought moves from one hand, and on the movement of awareness or this pure energy on the other hand.

As this pure energy cannot be stored anywhere, it is not memory, it leaves no trace behind.

But no more words for now...

perhaps there will be a chord struck in the heart of a reader, a chord that vibrates beyond sound and word

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
The comments on the proverb were intended to shed light on the way thought moves from one hand, and on the movement of awareness or this pure energy on the other hand.

If thoughts, as they emerge into consciousness, are met with the 'light' of awareness, they 'transform', it seems. It is possible that there is an awareness by thought itself that it has 'strayed', gone 'wrong', in its ignorance of what it is, and what its proper 'place' is but it has become confused and powerless to put itself right. It created the division of a 'self' apart for a security and illusory permanence that it had no need of, and out of fear of being 'nothing, struggles to maintain the division. Explanations cannot change its course, as has been seen... but attention, awareness, intelligence, love, as the thoughts are 'born', may be the only way.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #5
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
The comments on the proverb were intended to shed light on the way thought moves from one hand, and on the movement of awareness or this pure energy on the other hand.

Yes, we are trying to understand ourselves and thought is what creates this ‘self’. So more thought is only leading us to more confusion and suffering we have discovered. That’s enough to see that fact isn’t it? If we see how thought has created the chaos and suffering in the world we naturally put it aside. But that fact must be seen....observed ...and understood (self knowledge) or else it’s just propaganda or belief.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #6
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If thoughts, as they emerge into consciousness, are met with the 'light' of awareness, they 'transform', it seems. It is possible that there is an awareness by thought itself that it has 'strayed', gone 'wrong', in its ignorance of what it is, and what its proper 'place' is but it has become confused and powerless to put itself right. It created the division of a 'self' apart for a security and illusory permanence that it had no need of, and out of fear of being 'nothing, struggles to maintain the division. Explanations cannot change its course, as has been seen... but attention, awareness, intelligence, love, as the thoughts are 'born', may be the only way.

Mina: Yes, there is awareness by thought itself in the manner that awareness is not brought about by any outer factor. If it was, there was division between thought and awareness and this division is not seen to be real.

Now, if by the phrase 'there is awareness by thought itself' it is meant that thought becomes aware of itself in any sense of separation from itself, as the doer, then the statement is false, yes?

Awareness brings a new order to thought which previously revolved around itself as an observer and observed.

In awareness, of which thinking is an inseparable part, thought moves aligned with it, in harmony with it, but not interfering in the thoughtless silence from where it itself also originates...Beautiful..

this is right thinking!

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 93 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
'Begin to weave and the divine will provide the thread'

If you google this German proverb, you will see that it an expression that Jews and Christians use to encourage faith in a divine god. A god that will help you get what you want, either by your weaving, or praying, or any other way, is a god of your own projection. Obviously, "weave" in this proverb is a metaphor for working towards something you want.

The mind that is silently aware is not seeking. This proverb and what K points to are very far from each other.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #8
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 93 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
'Begin to weave and the divine will provide the thread'

If you google this German proverb, you will see that it is an expression that Jews and Christians use to encourage faith in an active, divine god. A god that will help you get what you want, either by your weaving, or praying, or any other way, is a god of your own projection. Obviously, "weave" in this proverb is a metaphor for working towards something you want. If you are just weaving for its own sake, you have no need for an active divine to provide any kind of thread.

The mind that is silently aware is not seeking. This proverb and what K points to are very far from each other.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 17 Jan 2020.

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Obviously, "weave" in this proverb is a metaphor for working towards something you want.

Yes, that makes sense, id.

Let it Be

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #10
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Awareness brings a new order to thought which previously revolved around itself as an observer and observed.

That is the action (observer divided from the observed) of the "damaged" brain that K. and Bohm referred to. Awareness of the division as being illusory,(thought's identification with the senses, sensation, and falsely referring to itself as 'I') is perhaps the "healing".

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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Mina: Being divided, the psychological mind cannot realise a unitary movement of the whole which is the timeless weaving of the most undescribably beautiful cloth of life woven with a magical thread that appears from moment to moment, in total trust and love, leaving no trace, no thread behind..

Tom: And war? Chronic alcohol and drug abuse? Violent crime and the unspeakable corruption of politicians who will destroy the earth itself to satisfy the greed of their wealthy industrialist donors? It’s the human mind of course where this total disorder starts. Which is the reason K spoke often of the need for self knowledge . Not trying to weave with magical thread or anything like that... but learning, inquiring, questioning, doubting, all of society’s beliefs, ideologies, ideals etc

Logged in as Tom Paine

Let it Be

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #12
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

From today’s QOTD:

Public Talk 29th February, 1948 | Mumbai, India

“So, the problem is: how to transcend, how to go beyond what is, which is violence, and not how to achieve the opposite. There is no opposite. There are the opposites of man and woman, a biological fact; but the opposite that the mind has created is non-existent. It is a convenient ruse, a trick of the mind to avoid acting directly upon what is. Can I transcend that which is, and not transform it, not make it into something else? I am greedy, violent; and can that violence, greed, come to an end? Obviously, it comes to an end when I can examine it and be completely aware of its whole social and psychological significance; but I can examine it only when there is no escape from what is - which none of us want to do, and that is the difficulty. None of us are honest enough to acknowledge that we are what we are, and then do something about it. ”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 18 Jan 2020.

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #13
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Tom: And war? Chronic alcohol and drug abuse? Violent crime and the unspeakable corruption of politicians who will destroy the earth itself to satisfy the greed of their wealthy industrialist donors? It’s the human mind of course where this total disorder starts.

K. None of us are honest enough to acknowledge that we are what we are, and then do something about it.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 18 Jan 2020.

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Can you explain what point you’re trying to make Dan? In #13. And how it relates to what Mina was saying?

It seems to me you left out the key point k was trying to make: “ I am greedy, violent; and can that violence, greed, come to an end? Obviously, it comes to an end when I can examine it and be completely aware of its whole social and psychological significance; but I can examine it only when there is no escape from what is - which none of us want to do, and that is the difficulty.” Yes it’s possible that that may be the reason why we don’t change...there are so many ready escapes. I’m no authority on any of this however

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 18 Jan 2020.

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #15
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Dear ID, (I feel the same as Clive, reluctant to call you your name :) )

Begin to weave and the divine will provide the thread'

If you google this German proverb, you will see that it an expression that Jews and Christians use to encourage faith in a divine god. A god that will help you get what you want, either by your weaving, or praying, or any other way, is a god of your own projection. Obviously, "weave" in this proverb is a metaphor for working towards something you want.

Mina: Well, I did not personally give any such meaning to it. This has to be made clear. (gosh i got into trouble with this proverb :-) ) (joking)

For me the weaving and the thread being provided as you go, symbolised action that comes from a 'place' prior to any thought (any thread) and all real needs being taken care of and being provided to you (thread) as you live from moment to moment. Something like that anyway :)

Yes, a god of your own projection, whether you have one, lives in the split between the observer and observed.

ID:>The mind that is silently aware is not seeking. This proverb and what K points to are very far from each other.

Mina: Yes, very clear that the mind that is silently aware has nothing to seek or find, it has no content put together by thought.

Whether this proverb and K's pointings have anything in common depends clearly on how the proverb is understood....it it is understood in the way you present it, then surely that is the case..

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #16
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Not trying to weave with magical thread or anything like that... but learning, inquiring, questioning, doubting, all of society’s beliefs, ideologies, ideals etc

Mina: was not personally giving any such limited meanings to the proverb

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #17
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Awareness brings a new order to thought which previously revolved around itself as an observer and observed.

That is the action (observer divided from the observed) of the "damaged" brain that K. and Bohm referred to. Awareness of the division as being illusory,(thought's identification with the senses, sensation, and falsely referring to itself as 'I') is perhaps the "healing".

Mina: Yes! The total awareness itself is the healing, the 'becoming' (no time) whole again..or rather the discovering of wholeness as one's true nature as the only Reality

(a very common reaction to what i just said above is to think that one is denying the reality of violence, both psychological and physical, in the world etc, but in Reality one is talking about the total transcendence of this reality created by thought and not of any denial of it which would be still thought continuing itself, continuing the violence that it is)

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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3259 posts in this forum Offline

Dan:Awareness of the division as being illusory,(thought's identification with the senses, sensation, and falsely referring to itself as 'I') is perhaps the "healing".

Mina: Yes! The total awareness itself is the healing, the 'becoming' (no time) whole again..or rather the discovering of wholeness as one's true nature as the only Reality

Thanks to both of you for this interchange. I’m beginning to see what Mina is saying thanks to Dan’s point above. Maybe he...or anyone...can elaborate on how the identification with the senses and sensation (pleasure/fear?) creates the sense of a separate ‘I’ or ‘me’.

Let it Be

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