Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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reflections at the end of the year.


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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 #61
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: Tom Paine wrote:

And who is this ‘we’ or ‘me’ who is holding on, but memory?

What about the brain?

The brain fears death? The physical brain? Or is it thought...thoughts of what emptiness...nothingness...death...means? Those thoughts bring fear and fear leads to holding on? But first there has to be a self image. Then there’s fear of that image....and all the other positive images...ending. We don’t fear the end of the negative images. What do you say...anyone?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 07 Jan 2020.

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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

This business of identification with sensation has been with me, off and on. It feels rather basic. I am starting to be clear that most sensation that I feel actually comes from thought, rather than directly from the senses. From the memory of something, from experience.

I want to proceed very carefully here, and not jump to any conclusions. And not just examine things in theory, but actually observe what is happening. Would other people go along with that second statement above?

Perhaps related to this, I have often thought, when hearing K talk about desire ..... he always starts from the direct contact with an object – a shirt or dress in a shop window, or a shiny car. But isn’t desire more often initiated by the THOUGHT of something, rather than direct contact? Is this perhaps something K did not fully appreciate about ‘the normal human mind’?

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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 #63
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 59 posts in this forum Offline

But isn’t desire more often initiated by the THOUGHT of something, rather than direct contact?
————————
I think desire is more often driven by thought of our inner world than by direct contact. I question if a direct contact with something I have a neutral position is awaking any interest. Because our perception is selective we might even not recognize things we have no desire in.

Let’s assume I am interested to buy a new red VW-Golf. Suddenly I see this kind of car many times on the road, I never saw before.

Desire is coming mostly before direct contact,no?

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Wed, 08 Jan 2020 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Because our perception is selective we might even not recognize things we have no desire in.

Let’s assume I am interested to buy a new red VW-Golf. Suddenly I see this kind of car many times on the road, I never saw before.

Let’s say I come across a beautiful flower or see a beautiful sunset. Can there not be a great joy in that seeing? Then thought comes in and I want to have that joy repeated. I want to cut the flower and put it in a vase. I want to photograph the sunset or future sunsets. That’s how I understand that thought creates desire. I think we all know the feeling of seeing an absolutely stunning woman or a man, depending upon our gender and sexual orientation. Suddenly, even before puberty I started noticing the attractive girls in my grade school classroom. It wasn’t something I was taught....suddenly it was there....powerfully so! There’s a natural feeling for the beauty of the opposite sex. But thought amplifies this and wants to possess the girl or woman....or man.

Desire is coming mostly before direct contact,no?

Not sure about that at all. Perhaps you could expand upon that point further.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 08 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 08 Jan 2020 #65
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 144 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Desire is coming mostly before direct contact,no?

The same goes for fear. Pain too is a part of identification with the body.
What is felt as unbearable pain, can also be experienced as slight tingling, depending on whether one is in stress (fight or flight) or has abandoned all hope.

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 08 Jan 2020 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
The same goes for fear.

Fear comes from body, or from thinking?

Pain too is a part of identification with the body.
What is felt as unbearable pain, can also be experienced as slight tingling, depending on whether one is in stress (fight or flight) or has abandoned all hope.

I have to question this assertion, Douglas. Don’t very young babies feel pain? I broke my arm as a child but was playing football and felt little pain. My mind was distracted by the game. Yet walking barefoot and stepping on a bee, I definitely felt the pain of the bee sting....and I wasn’t in stress at all. K also felt pain...having a tooth extracted and near the end from his cancer....excruciating pain. Not to mention the pain of the ‘process’.

Let it Be

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Wed, 08 Jan 2020 #67
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Manfred: Desire is coming mostly before direct contact,no?

Tom: Not sure about that at all. Perhaps you could expand upon that point further.

I want to come back to this. I was recalling last night my first trip to Los Angeles as a child. I was overwhelmed by seeing the tall palm trees and other unfamiliar vegetation for the first time. I was almost literally breathless taking in the beauty. Then of course desire came in ...later....AFTER direct contact/perception. OK, perhaps I’m not understanding your point Manfred. Perhaps you can expand upon it.

Let it Be

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Wed, 08 Jan 2020 #68
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 144 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Pain too is a part of identification with the body.
.

I have to question this assertion,

As well you may - The dentist story reminds me of one of my visits to the dentist: I really suffer with the drills and the hacksaws etc
Chemicals which work on numbing nerve endings are just not sufficient when it comes to long interventions, but chemicals that induce psychological/mental relaxation are bliss.

Look, see, let go

This post was last updated by Douglas MacRae-Smith Wed, 08 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 09 Jan 2020 #69
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Reflections at the end of the year has turned into reflections at the start of the ‘new year’, if there is anything new. I was watching on the news yesterday the Iranian leader addressing a large audience about the current crisis. The audience, many hundreds, were strictly segregated by gender. The women all in total black clothing, heavily covered, the men, everyone of them, wearing those round turbans peculiar to Iran.

And their leader proceeded to tell the people precisely what to think. Who to regard as enemies, who to regard as allies. He told them exactly how to interpret every action by other countries, other groups, and how to react. He told them how their beliefs were god-sent, absolutely true, and the followers of all other religions were infidels, wicked, and in illusion. Basically he was instructing them in the nature of reality. And the audience lapped it up, or appeared to. From time to time they broke out – or appeared to break out - into wild, frenzied cheering.

It was perfect brain-washing, and was frightening to watch. Of course such conditioning of the people is not unique to Iran. But to see it in operation, en masse to see such blind following, total acceptance, was deeply sobering and scary. As was seeing the huge crowds jam-packed in the streets for the general’s funeral. And more speeches, the exploitation of the dead for the purpose of propaganda.

This is what the world is.

With such deeply entrenched conditioning, I find it impossible to imagine that people will possibly change. And so the violence will continue. The strength of religious belief and nationalism are truly incredible. And, I thought, the collective ego is even stronger than the personal ego.

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Thu, 09 Jan 2020 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: It was perfect brain-washing, and was frightening to watch. Of course such conditioning of the people is not unique to Iran. But to see it in operation, en masse to see such blind following, total acceptance, was deeply sobering and scary.

The power of blind belief is truly bizarre. This is a subject we should probably discuss in a new thread since it’s created such chaos in the world and in ourselves. I know a woman who became a fanatical fundamentalist Christian. She’s Not essentially different from those Iranians. Watch on the news sometime a Trump rally. Or turn on Fox News if you have the stomach for brainwashing. Well man hasn’t changed at all since ancient times...that’s clear. In Europe in the Middle Ages the Christian church was the center of everyone’s life and the authority of the priest and the Bible was almost never questioned.

Let it Be

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Thu, 09 Jan 2020 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The power of blind belief is truly bizarre.

I read that among a lot of people in the US Trump is regarded as being 'sent by God'. More than that, that he is personally worshipped as a divine being. And all his 'eccentricities' are excused in that light.

I find this truly disturbing. What is the future of such a culture, such a society? The prospect is horrendous.

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Fri, 10 Jan 2020 #72
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I find this truly disturbing. What is the future of such a culture, such a society?

Fortunately they’re a minority. Most of his supporters just believed his b.s. about MAGA and keeping out illegal immigrants and creating jobs and draining the swamp, which is the exact opposite of what he’s done. But the exact same thing happened in Germany in the 1930’s. Hitler was almost worshipped as a God....or as someone sent by god, anyway.

The prospect is horrendous.

Absolutely. I’m frightened every day for my country...it’s kind of like being stuck in a car speeding down the highway with a crazed lunatic at the wheel.

Let it Be

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