Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

The Precipice


Displaying posts 151 - 162 of 162 in total
Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #151
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If it is true that the "house is burning" as K. says, then there is only one "action" that is 'right' and that is getting out. No?

I agree with Huguette, there is no "if" in this matter.

I think I was saying in my previous post that 'right action' consists in seeing that the self is non-existent, and any action that assumes its existence must necessarily be wrong action. This of course is nothing to do with morality.

Is this seeing the 'getting out' that you refer to?

Dan McDermott wrote:
So what is that 'instantaneous action' that eludes the 'net of time' and keeps us from being caught up again and again in the chaos, the'wave of destruction'and misery?

On what basis do you assume that there IS such an instantaneous action, Dan?

And what is the nature of "getting out"? What does it mean to have stepped out? Obviously the body at least would be subject to the same perils as everyone else, to being burnt in wildfires, to starvation, to disease, to physical violence, and the rest, no?

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #152
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

I take this opportunity of relating the following anecdote, as mentioned previously. It may have some relevance to what is being discussed.

I was visiting the medieval town of Vezelay in France, with a friend. A friend of this friend was a spiritualist - in the original meaning of the term. She claimed that she could see, could contact, the spirit world. She said that if I went to the cafe across the road I would see a group of men sitting around a table drinking. But what she saw was not only the group of men at the table, but a whole bunch of spirits standing silently around the table, watching the drinking going on.

These spirits were the spirits of men who in their own lifetime had been very much drawn to, or addicted to, drinking alcohol. Drinking had been a major part of their life. And so after death their spirits were still drawn to drinking, to the smell, of alcohol, to watching others drink. They could not ‘leave’.

I am not saying that I understand just what a spirit is. But I do remember K making a comment about the spirit of Indra Gandhi, and not talking of her after her death, which might bind her spirit to the Earth.

I must admit I found this concept quite terrifying. I wondered what my spirit might be drawn back to after my death. What I was not able to have given up completely, let go off completely, and so trapped by it. Is something like this our fate if we are unable to step out of the “burning house” - which I take to mean stepping out of the common human consciousness, a K describes?

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #153
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is something like this our fate if we are unable to step out of the “burning house” - which I take to mean stepping out of the common human consciousness, a K describes?

Or possibly unimaginably worse. The 'instantaneous action" which I referred to is 'my' experience. But not an action of the 'I'. It has to do with not 'becoming', not 'taking time'. It has to do with a 'jump'. (Which is as good a word as any).

Clive Elwell wrote:
And what is the nature of "getting out"? What does it mean to have stepped out? Obviously the body at least would be subject to the same perils as everyone else, to being burnt in wildfires, to starvation, to disease, to physical violence, and the rest, no?

"Getting out" cannot be described. At least I would not attempt that description. But the second part of what you ask regarding the body, I don't understand. This "stepping out" can only be in the instant, it is not a matter of time. I don't know if this is related but I woke this morning with the phrase: "You cannot invite the immensity"...and then reading the QOTD is something that is with me a lot, in the sense of how we, I, have taken our existence here to be something so trivial, but our 'death' to be so significant.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 02 Dec 2019.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #154
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Doubt is necessary but can’t we say that it is so? Isn’t it clear?

What makes something "clear" that has not been seen as "clear" for thousands of years?

K. "Can one really drop it? If you see it as you see a poisonous thing, then it is like a tremendous burden taken off your shoulders. You are out of it; with a flick, it is gone."

Public Talk 7 London, England - 16 May 1961

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 02 Dec 2019.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #155
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 857 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Where it is seen that it IS true - physically and/or psychologically - does the question of right and wrong action arise? One acts, one does, one lives or dies.

That's very true.

Huguette . wrote:
The rightness of action is not measured by its desired result.

IT'S not measured at all ! Not even by the amount of counterwork.

Huguette . wrote:
as I see it, it was right action

Right Action is not depending on how we put a stamp on it !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #156
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What makes something "clear" that has not been seen as "clear" for thousands of years?

I repeat the K quote I posted above:

“...if you could leave desire alone, either to wither away - just leave it alone - that is the very essence of a mind which is not in conflict.”

This leaving desire (or fear, anger, etc.) alone is, to me, the essence of the "doing it" that we talked about earlier. To see it and leave it alone, that is the only "doing it" there is. "Doing it" does not mean seeing it, understanding it and THEN doing it. To see it, understand it and "then" do it is still division in time, as I now understand it. The mind sees the movements of time and division within, and it does not take up the "cause", the emotions, the ideas, expressed by the movements. It sees and that's all it does - that's doing it.

The house is burning. It is simply clear. There is no expectation of what clarity is or what action should be. It is clear. The house is burning. If it is not clear, how can one even say it is not clear? How can I say "the house is burning" if it is not clear to me? If it is not clear, if one doesn't see it for oneself, doesn't one simply say, "No, it is not so"? And what would make me take someone else's word for it if it is not clear to me?

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #157
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If it is not clear, (that the "house is burning"), if one doesn't see it for oneself, doesn't one simply say, "No, it is not so"? And what would make me take someone else's word for it if it is not clear to me?

Because, one is suffering and doesn't know 'how' to end that suffering? One says "aha, I suffer because someone said my "house is on fire" but something is keeping me from that realization". Someone has said that I am on a "precipice" but I have little or no sense of that? 'If' it is true that that is my condition, why do I not 'feel' it, recoil from it? Why do I 'postpone' the action that would 'deliver' me from the danger of my situation? What is it that has 'anesthetized' me to the danger I am told I am in? Why do I allow time to enter and 'put off' the action by which I might be saved?

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #158
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Because, one is suffering and doesn't know 'how' to end that suffering? One says "aha, I suffer because someone said my "house is on fire" but something is keeping me from that realization". Someone has said that I am on a "precipice" but I have little or no sense of that? 'If' it is true that that is my condition, why do I not 'feel' it, recoil from it?

But it's not just me, Dan. Don't I see on the news that the whole world is burning....not just my little world...my house...my personal life? Don't you feel we're on a precipice when you read or watch the news on TV?

Let it Be

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #159
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
One says "aha, I suffer because someone said my "house is on fire" but something is keeping me from that realization".

Is that so? Is that how it is for you?

Adding to Tom's point: We are told all kinds of things, aren’t we? That the Jews, the Blacks, the Muslims, the Christians, the rich, the poor, the lazy, the politicians, the aliens, the deep state, the conspirators, the devil, on and on, are the cause of our suffering, and that if we crush them, get rid of them somehow, all will be right in the world for “me”. Why not follow those exhortations? Why K?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 02 Dec 2019.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #160
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Why K?

For me Huguette, he was at the end of a long line. I ran across the "burning house" and "precipice" similar analogies before K. particularly in the Gurdjieff Work but it was after K. that I realized that it was all on me to find out, maybe too late in my life but now the 'seriousness' of the situation (or as Gurdjieff put it: "the terror of the situation") has finally found a way into me. I got religion?:

Poona, India | 6th Public Talk, 24th September 1958:

... the religious man is he who, through self-knowledge, begins to discover his conditioning and to break through it; and the breaking through is not a matter of time.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 02 Dec 2019.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #161
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But it's not just me, Dan. Don't I see on the news that the whole world is burning....not just my little world...my house...my personal life? Don't you feel we're on a precipice when you read or watch the news on TV?

The 'way' I take it Tom is that it is true that I am "the world". What happens in this consciousness is what has created man's chaos. In that sense, as I see it wrongly or rightly, is that it is my responsibility. It doesn't mean that there will be a 'transformation' of this consciousness, it may be too late. The brain may be too damaged after a life of conformity, beliefs, etc. but what else is there than to see the situation, my situation for what it is? The world of man is what it is because I am what I am. 'If' that is the fact, then continuing to postpone, continuing to run, from that deep terrible truth, is done at my peril. I'd say that it is the 'staying with' this deep seated chaos, fear, loneliness , etc. is what is called for. Whether or not it 'will' be done is always an unknown. Running, escaping, substituting, is what we have been conditioned to do. It is what keeps us in the "burning house", isn't it?

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #162
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

The world of man is what it is because I am what I am.

What WE are....the mind of man is not just the little self image. Though K did say that you and I are responsible for war as long as we ourselves are violent. And violence is what has led to the house burning

'If' that is the fact, then continuing to postpone, continuing to run, from that deep terrible truth, is done at my peril.

Let’s not create fear with this kind of thought, which is simply acquired knowledge... unless it’s an actual direct perception. I’m recalling your phrase ....”enquiring not concluding”. Enquiring is from the unknown right? If I simply conclude that I’m violent, I can’t observe, because the image of me being violent prevents looking anew...there’s a condemnation already inherent in the word ‘violent’.,, ...this condemnation prevents observing ...inquiring.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 03 Dec 2019.

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