Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

The Precipice


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 162 in total
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote #57 :
Is this statement insight or is it thought pretending that it is above the struggle to be free? Is it thought pretending not to be thought? Is it thought splitting off once again in an attempt not to be thought, in an attempt to be free?

Yes, this is a tremendously important question.

Seeing the truth of this - which includes the perception that I am thought, the thinker is the thought, then thought is wiped away every moment

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
T: What could that value be? I've never perceived any value in listening to K or anyone talk about silence, but what do I know about what's helpful to anyone else? I do see great value in talking about how we observe...observing how we observe ...understanding division created by ideals and beliefs and psychological or 'spiritual' goals. I'm just questioning here the value of talks like Clive linked to above. Perhaps there is some value that eludes me.

I would not underestimate the value in simply listening.

Irrespective of what is listened to, pure listening has its own effect, does it not?

And also, I find a value in listening to others - whether it is K, or other teachers who are describing 'what is' accurately, concisely, penetratingly - in that it seems to bring a certain order to the mind. On its own, the mind is jumping all over the place - as Huguette described in another thread. but in listening to another, it follows the words, the order (I say 'follows', not 'accept'). The mind is more peaceful, and perhaps more receptive.

the question may arise for you: "how do I know what is true?". I would say I already know, in essence, what the other is saying, because I have explored it in myself, as the other has explored in HIMSELF.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Here’s something from K that perhaps will take us back on track

I must admit, Tom, that I do not see how this particular extract takes us back to the precipice. Can you explain?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Irrespective of what is listened to, pure listening has its own effect, does it not?

I’m sure it does, but I was addressing the problem of violence. In listening violence/division ends momentarily, yes. But, I was questioning the value of listening to a talk about silence in helping us to understand the cause or causes of violence in our everyday life, and the causes of the precipice where we find ourselves.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #65
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
And also, I find a value in listening to others - whether it is K, or other teachers who are describing 'what is' accurately, concisely, penetratingly - in that it seems to bring a certain order to the mind.

And this order solves the problem of violence and suffering ....helps us to begin to understand the causes at least? This order remains with us in our everyday living with its many conflicts?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I must admit, Tom, that I do not see how this particular extract takes us back to the precipice.

OK...it doesn’t address it exactly but it addresses the problems that have led us to the precipice. The problems ARE the precipice, aren’t they?

“Before we can awaken in ourselves this full consciousness from which alone can come true creative expression, we must become aware of the actual, that is, of the prejudices, fears, tendencies, wants, with their many illusions and expressions. When we are thus aware, we shall know the relationship of the actual to our action which limits and conditions thought-emotion with its reactions, hopes and escapes. When we are conscious of the actual there is the immediate perception of the false. That very perception of the false is truth.” (and it’s truth which will lead us from the precipice...that will end the violence created by ideals and beliefs and attachment (the false)....as I see it.)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #67
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
K “Before we can awaken in ourselves this full consciousness from which alone can come true creative expression, we must become aware of the actual, that is, of the prejudices, fears, tendencies, wants, with their many illusions and expressions.

So do it.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So do it.

I’m wondering the motivation behind your post Dan. We are all doing this I hope.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #69
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I’m wondering the motivation behind your post Dan. We are all doing this I hope.

Mind has to change from a concluding mind to an enquiring mind...only the enquiring mind can be open to the new. The concluding mind is always saddled or limited by the old.

K. "... we have the systems, the methods, the practices of the gurus. And so a mind that is enquiring into the nature of truth must be free totally from all organized pursuit, all organized practice, all organized enquiry."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
only the enquiring mind can be open to the new. The concluding mind is always saddled or limited by the old.

Is this what has taken us to 'the precipice' in your view, Dan? Man lives almost entirely with his/her conclusions....whether political, religious, social, sexist, racist, etc.? We never relate to our fellow man without that barrier? Will look further into this, but it may be the major factor...division in relationship. I was in a coffee shop yesterday with my wife and a guy walked in off the street looking like death warmed over. He was probably homeless, depressed, dirty, lost in his miserable condition with nowhere to turn. Anyhow, immediately I recoiled. I assumed he'd walk over to my wife and ask for money. She's a sucker for people asking for a handout. And I was stupidly fearful of that. But soon he wandered back out. He probably saw the manager of the shop standing behind the counter and was afraid to be thrown out for panhandling....so he just took himself out without losing his dignity any further. This whole thing troubled me and just thinking casually of him, suddenly I realized he was no different than me. The barriers dropped and I felt deeply his situation...what it would feel like if I were in his shoes. I really felt this...not thought about it, but feeling such deep compassion in realizing we were the same. I felt sadness that I didn't at least offer him a cup of coffee or a few bucks or just a word...a how's it going? or ....something. I simply turned away. And I felt the tragedy of that....how we do that all the time...we put up walls...we simply don't feel. I remember as a young child I did feel....visiting Manhattan with my mother we'd see beggars on the street with a cup looking for a hand out. They always looked so lost and depressed and I felt this deeply as a child....that this is so tragic ...so deeply sad. My wife still feels deeply for people like this guy, but for the most part I've learned over the years to just turn it off...the compassion...the feelings....turn away.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #71
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is this what has taken us to 'the precipice' in your view, Dan? Man lives almost entirely with his/her conclusions....whether political, religious, social, sexist, racist, etc.? We never relate to our fellow man without that barrier?

You just described as well as anyone 'the precipice' that we are living on. It seemed a safe enough place because we didn't know that there was any other. But there is. Through 'enquiring' into ourself with nothing but the wish to see, hear, feel what is going on in me and outside of me, it's revealed where I've 'built my house'. In a dangerous, limited, tiny place. I think that the seeing of that more and more clearly lets the brain/mind discover the shoddiness of what it has 'settled' for...and it becomes obvious that restricting itself to that place of 'conclusions', the 'past', (whether of years or the last moment) that fear can never end. The 'narrowness' of what we've become makes it inevitable...The house we've built is a 'construction of fear'that has walled us off from the rest of life.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #72
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The house we've built is a 'construction of fear'that has walled us off from the rest of life.

And walled the rest of life safely off from us...the poor are placed behind these walls we all put up....all of us with means to do something...to address the total social inequity. The Blacks in the US were walled off too as we all know....for how many years...centuries? They were inferior according to our prejudices... our conclusions. Because we were never open to them as human beings we didn't see that they are no different than us. So here we are on the precipice. Will explore further later. Just wanted to add....because we are walled off from each other we feel the need to compete rather than share, and we see the result of this worldwide competition which eventually leads to war and destruction of the environment.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

Mind has to change from a concluding mind to an enquiring mind...

Yes indeed. It seems this is the first step. The essential step. If enough people did this, would not that be stepping back from the precipice?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #74
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
My wife still feels deeply for people like this guy, but for the most part I've learned over the years to just turn it off...the compassion...the feelings....turn away

Yes, and if enough people did start to feel deeply, again we would be walking away from the precipice

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #75
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The house we've built is a 'construction of fear'that has walled us off from the rest of life.

Yes, fear is the problem, fear has bought us to the precipice. Since expressing recently my feelings/experiences about fear in the thread "Can fear actually, really end in me", the issue has remained very much alive. I may revisit that thread. It is such a black shadow that we live under, as Dan expressed recently.

Yes, to help bring back the human race from the precipice I have to ask: "Can fear end in me?".

It struck me yesterday that fear is the pinnacle of insecurity, its very essence. So perhaps if fear is to end, can I - not I - find real security? Obviously our present attempts to do that have failed utterly - through separation, division, belief, illusion, greed - but we keep on making the same old attempts, in the same old way. Why?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #76
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:
Mind has to change from a concluding mind to an enquiring mind...

Clive: yes indeed. It seems this is the first step. The essential step. If enough people did this, would not that be stepping back from the precipice?

Dan: No, it is enough, if you 'do it'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #77
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So perhaps if fear is to end, can I - not I - find real security? Obviously our present attempts to do that have failed utterly - through separation, division, belief, illusion, greed - but we keep on making the same old attempts, in the same old way. Why?

I would say that the 'self' until it is seen, glimpsed, that it doesn't actually exist will continue to search for "real security" within the bounds of its 'unreality'. But how can "real security" be found by something that doesn't actually exist. The real security ,I'd say, is when there is the realization of our connection with the 'whole'. Then no security is needed because then there is nothing 'outside' that could possibly be a danger. The 'self' is the brain's 'default' state? It's return to it is habitual?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #78
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Any fear that is felt is engendered by the illusion that self and time are as factual as anything that the senses perceive. It is the illusion of time as fact which summons fear, isn't it? Isn't it time which puts the illusion of self together --- an illusion put together by another illusion?

So to me there can be real security only when the brain, through vigilant self-observation, understands the illusory nature of self and time. Then the question arises: Is there more to death than merely the ending of self and time?

Whether that is possible or not is something we can inquire into, search out diligently, vigorously, work hard to find out. But if the mind merely clings to what it calls living - which is suffering, this whole process of accumulation - and tries to avoid the other, then it knows neither life nor death.

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1956/1956-06-2...

Where there is no self "perceived" by the brain, there is no division within the brain and the brain is no longer subordinate to a self which doesn’t exist, no longer in contradiction and conflict, no longer governed by belief, desire, hope, etc. This self-understanding is not the end of meditation but the beginning, isn't it? It frees the brain to explore and discover deeper. Even where there is this understanding, fear still arises. But it is no longer "connected" to a self, no longer something which the self feels. This frees the mind to explore deeper into itself, without the bondage of the self.

This self-understanding is the action of intelligence, isn’t it? It is not "me" understanding. It is the mind which is no longer governed by an illusory self which understands this. Where the brain no longer perceives division to be "real", where the brain does not imagine itself to be subordinate to an external self --- isn't that the beginning of intelligence, the dawning of intelligence, the awakening of intelligence? So it is intelligence which frees the brain from fear, as I see it.

And danger still arises for all living things. Wholeness does not exclude danger.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #79
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: It is the illusion of time as fact which summons fear, isn't it? Isn't it time which puts the illusion of self together --- an illusion put together by another illusion?

Could you expand upon these points, Huguette? Obviously if I fear losing my job it's related to time. At the present moment I may HAVE a job...I fear losing it in the future. But who can live without this kind of planning for the future? Then there's the fear that my wife or husband might leave me and I cling to them...to our marriage or relationship....it's my anchor. That may be related to attachment...to pleasure and security for 'me'/self. So time alone isn't involved here....pleasure and psychological security is also involved. If you could relate what you said to real life examples perhaps I'd be better able to grasp it.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #80
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Physically, there is NO security. That is a fact, isn't it? The ground can open up beneath my feet or something can fall from the sky and land on my head, war can be declared or my home can be invaded by assassins. My children can contract a deadly illness, suffer and die. There may be drought and no water or food available. We can be homeless and die of hypothermia. And so on. One can fear and worry about these things when they are hypothetical and that fear and worry are not helpful or justified. We do justify fearing and worrying about these dangers but we can understand that fear and worry do not resolve anything. Fear and worry do not keep the danger at bay. Even in serious circumstances - or probably especially in serious circumstances - fear and worry are an avoidance of the facts, as I see it.

When one is in the situation, one does what one can. I remember a photo of an emaciated woman holding her dying child who was still trying to suckle at her dried up breast. Fear, worry, anger, tears did not show on her face, and her face --- I can’t describe it, can’t find the words.

This is the only way I am finding to express what I mean. I don’t know if it will mean anything to you.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #81
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And danger still arises for all living things. Wholeness does not exclude danger.

But it's a different meaning of 'danger', isn't it? A Star may through age be in 'danger' of burning out or exploding...or planets may be in 'danger' of being drawn into a 'black hole' but is that not supposed to happen? Does it engender 'fear' in them as in our psychological fear when we are in 'danger' of being humiliated, exposed, dying,etc...Our fear comes from not understanding what we actually are, our place in the 'whole', doesn't it? We don't 'know' what we are, do we?. So 'death' for us is misunderstood because we cling to our 'understanding' of what life is, of what we think we are... In our limited understanding, life and death are in opposition. Is there any such thing as 'opposition' in the universe? Have we brought what we see as physical opposition into the psyche? Is the brain made ill by the persistence of these false conclusions we carry with us? Intelligence can free the mind by seeing through these conclusions that have gone unquestioned for so long, can't it? Throw it all out? Through 'inquiry' into 'what is'? Do conclusions have any place in the psych? Or are they only for the practical?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #82
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan,

All that is fine. But why throw in, “The real security ,I'd say, is when there is the realization of our connection with the 'whole'.” Why throw in, “Our fear comes from not understanding what we actually are, our place in the 'whole'”? What we actually are is NO THING. How does no thing have a place in the whole? Why throw in “the whole”? Self-understanding, the action of intelligence, does that necessitate understanding our place in the whole?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #83
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
What we actually are is NO THING. How does no thing have a place in the whole? Why throw in “the whole”?

This was addressed to Dan but I'm also questioning his 'our place in the whole'. This implies duality no? There's the whole and there's us...me. The question, "What is my place in the whole?" implies a me separate from the whole looking for his place. So is this 'me' lost and isolated and seeking a connection to the whole? In time?

Dan: We don't 'know' what we are, do we?.

We may have ideas about that, but they’re meaningless. But we do know we suffer. Shouldn’t we find out why....and why we cause suffering in others, worldwide suffering?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #84
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Self-understanding, the action of intelligence, does that necessitate understanding our place in the whole?

Isn't "intelligence" a manifestation of the 'whole'? Doesn't the 'whole' see the ignorance or limitation of the 'self'? That the 'self' suffers because it 'thinks' that it is separate from the whole. That it is an 'individual'? 'We' do not have a place in the whole, that is just a figure of speech. We are the whole, the world, one ,etc. There is no "duality", duality is a creation of the self. 'Opposites' are a creation of the self, no? Security/insecurity is relative to the self's beliefs. Is there 'insecurity' in the universe? Is insecurity in regards to the psyche just an unfortunate mistake? Physically to be secure, certain conditions are necessary but when we try to be 'secure' psychologically, it necessitates defending what we 'consider' to be necessary which inevitably breeds fear and violence...So psychological 'vulnerability' (or emptiness) is the only true security isn't it, because innocence, vulnerability has nothing to defend. Right? Doesn't self understanding mean seeing the self as something where the brain has taken a wrong direction in relation to it's place in the world and the universe?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #85
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But it's a different meaning of 'danger', isn't it? A Star may through age be in 'danger' of burning out or exploding

No. We're talking about fear. So I'm talking about living things, things that live and die biologically. A star in danger of exploding does not seek security or feel fear - as far as I know. So danger in terms of stars is not applicable to what we're talking about, which is fear.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #86
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So is this 'me' lost and isolated and seeking a connection to the whole? In time?

That is the definition of the 'self' isn't it?

Tom Paine wrote:
Shouldn’t we find out why....and why we cause suffering in others, worldwide suffering?

Don't we cause and undergo this suffering because of the fear our understanding of who we 'think' we are, has created the division between us , between us and nature, between us and the universe. A deep (mistaken?) loneliness?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #87
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Isn't "intelligence" a manifestation of the 'whole'? Doesn't the 'whole' see the ignorance or limitation of the 'self'?

There is a ground from which everything has arisen, from which everything arises. I say this not because I have seen the ground or know what the ground is. But I do see what has been created (not the whole of it, of course) and I see order at every level of the creation --- except for the disorder in the human mind. So that universal order points to intelligence and the intelligence within is also a manifestation of that ground, that intelligence which has created and creates everything.

Seeing this does not end fear. The idea that I'm part of the whole does not end fear. How can this whole be "seen", except as an idea? I do NOT see the whole. Perhaps you can explain what it looks like.

I see fear, pretense, desire, cruelty, affection, and so on. And I see the order, I see the intelligence, the creative energy - not directly but through its action. And I see that where there is intelligence - self-understanding - fear has a new meaning. It is no longer an attribute of the self; it is the conditioned movement of thought. Where there is fear, there is no security. Where there is intelligence, there is no fear.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #88
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
So danger in terms of stars is not applicable to what we're talking about, which is fear.

Alright but are you talking about 'real' fear: the bodily 'fear of being chased by the tiger.. or the psychological fear of being exposed as a liar, cheat, hypocrite, etc.? You separate them, right? I do. One is 'organic' the other is 'psychological'. One is innate, the other is learned.

Huguette . wrote:
What we actually are is NO THING.

Yes and in that being 'no-thing' we are indivisible. Divisability comes in the world of 'things'. Different bodies, different forms of 'energy', matter.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #89
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Alright but are you talking about 'real' fear: the bodily 'fear of being chased by the tiger.. or the psychological fear of being exposed as a liar, cheat, hypocrite, etc.? You separate them, right? I do. One is 'organic' the other is 'psychological'. One is innate, the other is learned.

Danger - the perception and understanding that there is danger present - is not fear. It is intelligence (which K also said). Without a sense of danger, could the human being have survived? Without the sensation of fire burning, I leave my hand on the hot stove.

Now, in the presence of danger, there can also be fear - psychological fear. In the example which Tom gave, for example, where there is a danger of me losing my job, there is the awareness of danger and there can also be also the psychological fear, worrying about the future, whether my children will be homeless, and so on. The awareness of the danger awakens intelligence, and intelligence acts as needed - which does not mean that there is a guarantee of security. My family might end up homeless. There is simply no security, as can be seen everywhere around the world.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes and in that being 'no-thing' we are indivisible. Divisability comes in the world of 'things'. Different bodies, different forms of 'energy', matter.

Division in terms of what we're talking about refers to the apparent or perceived division of something which is not in fact divided. A pie can actually be divided into actual parts without losing its essential qualities. Each slice of the pie has all the essential qualities of the pie.

But the brain is not 2 but 1. It has not actually been divided into actual parts each of which has retained the essential qualities of the brain. It has been divided into "brain" and "self", 2 entities separate both in kind and number. Brain and "self" do not share the same qualities. There is only the brain, not the brain in one location and self in another location. "We" are not indivisible. "We, I, you" do not exist except as an illusion and it is the illusion which divides 1 into 2. It is the illusion which fragments the vital energy of the human being, as I see it.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 21 Nov 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 21 Nov 2019 #90
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

After all is said and done, there is discontent, sorrow - both personal and the sorrow of the world. Not to move away from that fact is all that truly means anything, as I see it. As soon as we, I, you move away from it, there is corruption and continuation of the past.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 162 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)