Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

some concern as moderator


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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

As moderator - or just as a human being - I am becoming concerned that Tom and Idiot ? are becoming increasingly disrespectful of each other, dismissive of what the other is saying. Things seem to be getting a bit personal.

I hope both can slow down and consider this.

Clive

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Fri, 08 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
As moderator - or just as a human being - I am becoming concerned that Tom and Idiot ? are becoming increasingly disrespectful of each other, dismissive of what the other is saying.

Okay. It's not my intention to be disrespectful and I apologize if I have been.

I think it would be good for me to not spend so much time here on kinfonet so I'm going to go away for a while. Thank you all for the discussion we've had and I wish you well in your continuing investigations and communications.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Okay. It's not my intention to be disrespectful and I apologize if I have been.

Oh no...mine either. It’s not personal when I say something someone posted is bonkers or nuts....if I did in fact do that. I mean no disrespect towards the person, only that it seems nonsensical what he or she is saying. And I don’t think idiot takes it personally. Can’t we have strong objections to what someone posts without it being taken personally?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Ah, I think I found what Clive was objecting to....perhaps this reply of mine to one of idiots posts:

“ That’s a ridiculous argument.There is a reason someone decides to sit down to meditate. Usually they heard about it from a book and want something from it. Not saying that’s wrong “

I think id said that one meditates without any reason....perhaps something like that. Anyhow if this kind of honesty is offensive I will try to control myself. If I think something is ridiculous....such as some political remark by an insane politician.... I will call it that. But here perhaps you feel we should be more polite. I honestly don’t mean anything personal, but will look more closely at my tendency to just say what I feel. I honestly hope idiot? wasn’t offended.

Let it Be

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you both for your conciliatory manner. I did not want to pick out particular examples of what I found a little disrespectful in some posts And it was only a little matter indeed, this was only a very gentle warning, in case things got worse. We all react at times. Or am I making an assumption there? :-) Perhaps I was over reacting!

And I hope Id is not leaving because of my warning. And if he is, I hope he returns soon.

Have pity on the poor moderator!

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

I also want to say this about Tom Paine. He has not personally attacked me in any way. Obviously we have differences in our understanding. He has only questioned and challenged my statements and ideas, never me personally. I feel this is healthy, even if we don't resolve differences. He is passionate and honest and I thank him for the interaction.

I'm only taking a break because I burn too much time here. Thank you, Clive Elwell, for this great forum.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

I recognise that a certain degree of, let us say tension, may be a good driver of dialogue.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I recognise that a certain degree of, let us say tension, may be a good driver of dialogue.

Many years ago when I first started reading some of the transcripts of the talks, I was kind of shocked by what I saw as rudeness in some of K's criticisms of the audience. I still remember one, "Oh, you people are so dull!" I think it was. I felt like he was insulting ME because I was certainly as clueless(dull) about what he was saying as some of the audience members he was criticizing were. So there was some tension in K I think for him to react. I admit I reacted to some of what idiot? posted out of frustration. Mostly frustration because I felt it was very misleading and I simple didn't have the time to go into it fully with him....but felt I must state my objection. I could simply have said something like, "That's not true, idiot?"...or "I feel you're totally mistaken" and left it at that. Or I could have used K's word I suppose...."You're so dull!" ;) How do we object strongly to something we feel is totally misleading...or a wrong understanding of a word like 'meditation'? Maybe it's like you said above Clive. I like to be challenged as well, if I'm way off base. Then I'm motivated to look more carefully about a particular point or issue.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 07 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #9
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How do we object strongly to something we feel is totally misleading...or a wrong understanding of a word like 'meditation'?

By stating your opinion and then realizing that you're both wrong?;)

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

How do we object strongly to something we feel is totally misleading...or a wrong understanding of a word like 'meditation'?

By stating your opinion and then realizing that you're both wrong?;)

Opinion or seeing of the fact? If we see the fact that organized religious belief is false...any belief is false...is that an opinion? If a fundamentalist Christian tells you that the earth is only 6000 years old and that the story of Noah's ark is fact can we say 'Nonsense!'?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 07 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #11
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Opinion or seeing of the fact?

Your mention of "it all being images" or something similar set off a realization in me, that all this suffering, fear, conflict is all in our heads. You have your 'image world' and I have mine. It is what we have made out of an 'imageless' world... that we move and breathe in..."Meditation' is a word image, a symbol of something that is not a word or a symbol. K. I think. said it was 'life', which is another word symbol in english for something that is not an image or a word...So for Idiot his word 'meditation' expresses the image he has of a kind of activity and you have one that covers yours...they're not the same because what 'meditation' actually is is 'nothing'. You can say/think yours is the 'right' image, and I may agree but as I think you said, it's really all just images. Whatever K. is pointing at with the word "meditation" (he didn't like to use it), I don't know. To me it's closer to his "flight of the eagle" (leaving no trace) than to any ritualized activity, no matter how subtle. But as we have to say in this world of psychological images...I may be wrong...or better, I probably am wrong!

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 07 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #12
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
. But as we have to say in this world of psychological images.

Don't understand this Dan - did you mean "stay" rather than "say"

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #13
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Don't understand this Dan - did you mean "stay" rather than "say"

"Say",... when you come right down to it , how can we not be wrong about pretty much everything when we're looking out at the world from our psychological 'cages'?

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
how can we not be wrong about pretty much everything when we're looking out at the world from our psychological 'cages'?

Can’t we actually see the falseness of ideals....beliefs...see the danger as a fact...as the truth? Can’t we see anything for ourselves as true...or false? Is it a fact or not that thought is limited...or that beliefs divide? Is this just opinion? Was K just spouting opinions?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 07 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
when you come right down to it , how can we not be wrong about pretty much everything when we're looking out at the world from our psychological 'cages'?

I suspect that we come nowhere near suspecting the full extent that we are "wrong"

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I suspect that we come nowhere near suspecting the full extent that we are "wrong"

That thought is wrong!

Let it Be

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