Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

" Have you ever sat very quietly without any movement?"


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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #61
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #51:
And as fear cannot free itself through any means, for all its efforts spring from its own source,

I find this terribly meaningful. It is true, isn't it? for sorrow, conflict, aggression, ambition, .... all the fundamental problems of the mind – which are by necessity the problems of society. This is not a cry of despair, but until it is seen, man will for ever be “facing the wrong direction”

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #62
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
My concern is that it is not sort of document that an overworked headmaster, for example, will consider very much if it is in his inbox on Monday morning. I feel I would have to do an "undercover job" to get this activity into schools. And a certain amount of 'dummbing down' would have to take place. Some compromise. I'm afraid people in the system can only think and make decisions in terms of what fits into the system. Although I don't want to be dishonest.

Clive,

I realized even as I posted my suggestion that it was long and detailed in ways that a headmaster might not have the time or inclination to pay attention to. On the other hand, I can’t help but object to any amount of “dumbing down”, or to an “undercover job”, or to any kind of subterfuge in order to sneak the project in. There are also the parents to consider in that the headmaster, it seems to me, would have to explain the activity to them.

Without being completely honest about what the activity means to YOU, don’t you lose the essence, the urgency, the depth, the passion you have for it? If being honest means being rejected, so be it --- that’s how I feel. I also feel like Dan when he said (at 56), “Thinking some on this, I ask why don't you just own this? Leave "K" out of it. Make it yours.”

What have you got to lose? Either way - subterfuge or no subterfuge - it might not get approved. At least if you start with complete honesty, you can continue on with honesty without the need for continued dumbing down or undercover job. It seems to me that honesty is not an option. Without honesty, there is corruption, isn't there? Then the whole thing is lost anyway. I say this hesitantly. It might not be so.

I’m curious about whether you have ever done such an activity with children. The reason I’m curious is because you say in your document: “After the meditation, it should give rise to a number of questions, based on what the children have observed in themselves”. Have you experienced this?


(If you go ahead with it as is, I suggest changing the sentence, “Without understanding ourselves, what basis do we have for understanding anything?” by replacing “for understanding anything” with something like: “for understanding our actions, reactions and emotions”.)

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thinking some on this, I ask why don't you just own this? Leave "K" out of it. Make it yours. Put your name on it. That it derives in part from some influence or other is beside the point, isn't it? You are presenting it in a specific form, with direction, keeping it separate from others that it may be confused with, etc....Feldenkreis body awareness comes to mind.

Yes, that is a good point - why don't I own it? Now that you have asked that, I think I AM owning it.

But it still need a name to idenitify it, as you say to distinguish it from other - here I cringe to use the word - 'systems' (it is the fact that it is not a system, a method, that does dstinguish it, in fact). A neutral name. "K" just came to mind, for obvious reasons, I certainly do not want to associate this with Krishnamurti's work in any way, even though that is the inspiration. And I certainly do not want to use my own name, even though I have now "owned it" :-).

How about some more informative names?

Directionless Meditation?

Open Meditation?

Awareness Meditation

Attention Meditation

Self Understanding

Passive Meditation?

Exploring Meditation?

A Meditation?

none of these names bring in the fact it is intended for children - but of course it is just as valid for everyone, is it not?

Any suggestions for a name will be appreciated.

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #64
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
Any suggestions for a name will be appreciated.

“What is awareness?”

Let it Be

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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 #65
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

“Is it possible to understand myself?”

Let it Be

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Fri, 08 Nov 2019 #66
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
How about some more informative names?

Directionless Meditation?
Open Meditation?
Awareness Meditation?
Attention Meditation?
Self Understanding?
Passive Meditation?
Exploring Meditation?
A Meditation?

none of these names bring in the fact it is intended for children - but of course it is just as valid for everyone, is it not?

Some more possible names came to me, but not impressed by them:

Observation Meditation?
Reactionless Meditation?
Zero Meditation?
Z Meditation?
Discover Meditation?
Direct Meditation?
Directionless Meditation?

These seem better:

Open Meditation

Enquiry Meditation

One title that does capture the content would be "Understanding Meditation", but that phrase instantly changes the sense, and 'Understanding' ceases to be an adjective, instead will be read as a present participle.

Ah! Feeling I just had a Eureka moment :-) -
MOVING MEDITATION

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Fri, 08 Nov 2019.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #67
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
“Is it possible to understand myself?”

Tom Paine wrote:
“What is awareness?”

Thanks Tom. Both of your suggestions are of course very pertinent to such a program (I am using the word 'program' now) but I was looking for a short, 'snappy' term, appellation, handle, for this 'meditation'. Something I can use to refer to it, once it has been described, and I don't think a question will do.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #68
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I realized even as I posted my suggestion

Clive,

I realized even as I posted my suggestion that it was long and detailed in ways that a headmaster might not have the time or inclination to pay attention to. On the other hand, I can’t help but object to any amount of “dumbing down”, or to an “undercover job”,

Yes, I was careless to use such words, sorry.They are unpleasant.

or to any kind of subterfuge in order to sneak the project in.

I am not quite sure if ‘subterfuge’ is an appropriate word. Am I being dishonest with my words, rather than simplifying? Please show me if you will, because yes, this is a very serious matter.

There are also the parents to consider in that the headmaster, it seems to me, would have to explain the activity to them.

Yes, I had not thought of this aspect of things.

Without being completely honest about what the activity means to YOU, don’t you lose the essence, the urgency, the depth, the passion you have for it? If being honest means being rejected, so be it --- that’s how I feel.

You are right, Huguette.

There is an exchange in “The Ending of Time”, which I won’t take the time to locate at the moment, but to the effect that Bohm said that people who are intelligently trying to change society will be intelligent enough to do so without society knowing what is happening, and so not be able to react. K said “you are saying something that is actually happening”

I also feel like Dan when he said (at 56), “Thinking some on this, I ask why don't you just own this? Leave "K" out of it. Make it yours.”

Yes, I am doing that now, I think. Various ideas are emerging from my past educational experiments which I am going to incorporate into what I am starting to call “a program”
.

What have you got to lose? Either way - subterfuge or no subterfuge - it might not get approved. At least if you start with complete honesty, you can continue on with honesty without the need for continued dumbing down or undercover job. It seems to me that honesty is not an option. Without honesty, there is corruption, isn't there? Then the whole thing is lost anyway. I say this hesitantly. It might not be so.

I do take your point, Huguette.

I’m curious about whether you have ever done such an activity with children. The reason I’m curious is because you say in your document: “After the meditation, it should give rise to a number of questions, based on what the children have observed in themselves”. Have you experienced this?

Probably not. But I have been at alternative schools where discussion, dialogue even, was deliberately part of the school curriculum, regularly weekly events (based on things that were real to children’s everyday lives). Enquiry was very deliberately encouraged, and I think the results were good, Increasingly children came up with their own meaningful questions. But I would say such sessions were basically thought-based, unlike the intentions of the present project.

To the best of my memory (which is not a good best) I have never tried anything quite like this when I was teaching (always in alternative schools). Perhaps I didn’t have confidence then. But I did try various exercises in awareness of one’s surrounding, experiments with listening and looking, with young people. I made up a lot of these.

On second thoughts, I am remembering now sessions of at least sitting silently with children in a group. And at least I never experienced any resistance to this.

And at one alternative school in India (partly residential) every day in the evening there was a half hour silently sitting (outside) or walking session. I think this was quite popular with children, all ages.

(If you go ahead with it as is, I suggest changing the sentence, “Without understanding ourselves, what basis do we have for understanding anything?” by replacing “for understanding anything” with something like: “for understanding our actions, reactions and emotions”.)

Yes, this is a good suggestion.

I think a problem I have created at the very start is to compose a single document which has two aims – one) an imaginary presentation to school personnel, to get the project approved, and

two) to develop the actual ideas of the program. I will perhaps uncouple the two in the future.

Thank you for your interest, Huguette, it is good to have friends to examine these things with. Do you, or have you, worked in education?

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #69
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I realized even as I posted my suggestion that it was long and detailed in ways that a headmaster might not have the time or inclination to pay attention to.

First of all, it is concerned basically with self-understanding. Without understanding ourselves, are we not bound to be controlled by the patterns of thought, emotion and action established by our elders from time immemorial? Whether we conform to social pressures or rebel against them, our actions are shaped by these patterns. Without self-understanding, we - like the generations before us - are bound to be products of the social environment of family, school, friends, and so on.

But Huguette, will this resonate with the education establishment? Do they not see their work precise as bringing children up to be “controlled by the patterns of thought, emotion and action established by our elders from time immemorial?” They may not ue these very words, but is this not what is going on – or at least the attempt, in the face of reaction and rebellion by young people? Here is NZ especially the Maoire culture is very very firmly based on tradition, on acceptance of the past as being the “way forward”. And European culture is not fundamentally different, when one examines it closely – it is the propogation of patterns of thought. They may talk about questioning, but it seems to me any questioning is on a very superficial level.

Or put it this way; will not the establishment, including parents, be rather aghast at such questioning as: “Without self-understanding, we - like the generations before us - are bound to be products of the social environment of family, school, friends, and so on. ”?

Even the words that I originally used viz:

“Don’t judge [the mind], don’t condemn it. Just watch it as it moves.”

might not be at all acceptable to the established order. Isn’t society at its heart based exactly on judging (measuring), correcting, and controlling? On gradual ‘improvement’? On anlysis and trying to change? With its notion of an analyser quite separate from what he is analysing? I suspect the very notion of “not trying to do anything about it” would be treated by the establishment with deep suspicion.

What do you say? I know it’s all insane, but that’s how it is. How to meet such attitudes without being dismissed as a crank? Does the establishment really want the “radical change” that you talk of, or are they committed to the comfortable idea of “gradual improvement”?

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #70
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
Does the establishment really want the “radical change”

I would say Clive that of course they don't. Isn't this what we here are struggling to understand? Not in the 'establishment, but in ourselves. Unless this "radical change" is brought about in ourselves, why talk about it for the 'establishment'? Unless there is this radical change in consciousness (mine not yours or theirs) it will continue as it has but things will probably become worse.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #71
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Does the establishment really want the “radical change”

I would say Clive that of course they don't. Isn't this what we here are struggling to understand? Not in the 'establishment, but in ourselves. Unless this "radical change" is brought about in ourselves, why talk about it for the 'establishment'?

But we must be first willing to question what we are all about(the establishment being part of us). And isn't that a worthwhile activity to introduce in a school? Clive is concerned that the powers that be at the school won't allow that if I understand correctly. Haven't had time to follow this thread closely so forgive me if I'm not understanding Clive's point totally.

Let it Be

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #72
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
And isn't that a worthwhile activity to introduce in a school?

I'd say that definitely it is. but it will be corrupted. My children went to a 'Waldorf' school here in the states that was based on the ideas of Rudolf Steiner and his 'Anthroposophy'...which I was only slightly interested in. But what was important to me was that the children didn't get 'indoctrinated' into anything of that sort. The school had a lot to do with art, music, playing as well as the three Rs (reading, riting and rithmetic). They are grown and have no interest in any of this or that....I was thinking of Clive's project this morning and had what I thought were some interesting thoughts regarding it. I suppose it could be another thread because it seems to me that it's at the root of what happens to us as children.

I see the importance of 'vulnerability'. The total lack of any psychological resistance. A total openness or to use K's word "emptiness". And while it seems that as long as we are not 'vulnerable', we will run, fight, defend, etc. But isn't 'vulnerability' seen in the society as a weakness, something to fortify against? As in, if you are 'vulnerable, you will be open to attack? So the 'walls' that we build around us beginning in childhood are in fear of this openness or vulnerability. This fear of being taken over by another, being exploited, made fun of, shamed, being criticized and made to feel inferior, etc,etc. So the 'shell' is formed in childhood and in most cases is fortified throughout one's life. Isn't this right? Yet as we are finding out, the only true protection, defense, security is in this total vulnerability: in being as "nothing". So 'people' are happy to have their children build these walls and shells because they fear what would happen to them without a strong "ego', without a strong sense of 'self-esteem'. This is the way it is, it seems to me. And this has to be taken into consideration.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 09 Nov 2019.

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Sat, 09 Nov 2019 #73
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I would say Clive that of course they don't. Isn't this what we here are struggling to understand? Not in the 'establishment, but in ourselves. Unless there is this radical change in consciousness (mine not yours or theirs) it will continue as it has but things will probably become worse.

I talk in this instance about the establishment because I am trying to get this project accepted, and to do that I need to anticipate "their reactions". Isn't that reasonable?

Unless this "radical change" is brought about in ourselves, why talk about it for the 'establishment'?

This seems to suggest that any sort of attempt to bring about change - say in the field of education, as is the case in point here, has no meaning. Is this what you are saying? Is this related to your "Will be corrupted" statement later?

But later, in @72 you say:

I'd say that definitely it is. but it will be corrupted.

in reply to Tom's:

And isn't that a worthwhile activity to introduce in a school?

k started schools, as we know. He must have known that eveyone who came to work in them would not be 'enlightened', (although he continually emphasised that the most important element was the teacher). I think he also said we cannot sitting around postponing action until everyone is enlightened, because that would never happen.

I think you are suggesting that deep down, at heart, we are all part of "the establishment". Is that so? I would agree that "I am the world", and this realisation helps one not to think that one is some sort of authority. I would emphasis with children that in matters of enquiry into the self, they and I stand on common ground.

Does one "know better" than the mainstream opinion? I'm afraid in some areas that is true - for example I think that to encourage competition in schools is insane, that nationalism 'is a poison', and I will talk in this vein. And I did put my money and time where my mouth is by home-educating my children, mostly.

An important question that arises from your post, Dan, one we might take up, is whether deep down we do want to change, or whether we are as hide-bound as "the establishment"

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #74
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
An important question that arises from your post, Dan, one we might take up, is whether deep down we do want to change, or whether we are as hide-bound as "the establishment"

It's getting late here but I want to respond. No, "deep down" we don't want to "change" unless it's for the 'better'. That's just the way it is. The real 'change' (transformation) that's being talked about, I'd say, is the change that comes about from an "integral awareness". (Tom asked about what that meant and it was my question too.) That is an awareness that takes it all in.: the head, the heart, and the body...all. And as Mina said in her post a while back, when that is seen, you are... "nothing". I'm seeing that that is the only real "change", everything else is happening in the 'head' alone. And it's only this state of "integral awareness" that can reveal this state of "no-thingness". Without that it is all just thoughts against thoughts. So yes, we "want" to change, but there is no "deep down" and the change we want is not the change we need...the real change has nothing to do with 'desire' , it has to do with seeing that we are...nothing.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 10 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #75
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Without that it is all just thoughts against thoughts. So yes, we "want" to change, but there is no "deep down" and the change we want is not the change we need...the real change has nothing to do with 'desire' ,

Yes...to the part in bold....it's just fragmentation. One fragment wants to change another fragment. I'm violent and another fragment of me says I don't want to be violent....or afraid or whatever I feel is wrong or painful. "Change has nothing to do with desire"...yes, I would agree. Desire is based upon thought/memory. We don't like what we are....so we desire what we are not....an ideal or projection of thought. Just my take on what you wrote, Dan, fwiw.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 10 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #76
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
Just my take on what you wrote, Dan, fwiw.

It's the seeing of all the "fragments" that is the "integral awareness".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 10 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #77
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
It's the seeing of all the "fragments" that is the "integral awareness".

?? Can you expand upon that, Dan? Not sure what you're saying. There's thousands of fragments....many unconscious...how can one see them all?

Let it Be

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #78
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So 'people' are happy to have their children build these walls and shells because they fear what would happen to them without a strong "ego', without a strong sense of 'self-esteem'. This is the way it is, it seems to me. And this has to be taken into consideration.

Where ever one looks, whatever criteria one uses, there is such a vast gulf between what is intelligent, what is true, and the values and practices of society. This gulf seems impossible to bridge, especially when one sees that one IS society, as K says. So one has to act not to try to bridge any gulfs, but according to what seems right, what seems true.

Dan McDermott wrote:
.I was thinking of Clive's project this morning and had what I thought were some interesting thoughts regarding it. I suppose it could be another thread because it seems to me that it's at the root of what happens to us as children.

Please do so, Dan. I find discussion with concerned individuals of great value.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #79
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
the change we want is not the change we need...the real change has nothing to do with 'desire' , it has to do with seeing that we are...nothing.

This perception has been nudging at me of late, now and then. The perception cannot be captured by thought, of course. It implies the COMPLETE negation of all that is known, all that is thought to be known.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #80
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
There's thousands of fragments....many unconscious...how can one see them all?

Not at once I would say, just those that are present in one's active consciousness at any moment. It's not how many that is important but this 'relationship' between this 'integral awareness' and the 'fragmentation' of thought against thought. (The thinker/ thought, the observer/observed)

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #81
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2886 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

There's thousands of fragments....many unconscious...how can one see them all?
Not at once I would say, just those that are present in one's active consciousness at any moment.

That’s normally only one in any given moment

It's not how many that is important but this 'relationship' between this 'integral awareness' and the 'fragmentation' of thought against thought.

Yes...seeing (integrally) the observer fragment is key....seeing that it’s not separate from the rest, though it appears to be so. I think K said that the observer fragment is a product of the other fragments. Is that so? I was looking at just that this AM when pondering your previous post. Crucial point!

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 10 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #82
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
It implies the COMPLETE negation of all that is known, all that is thought to be known.

In the psyche, that would seem to be the case. Does the 'past' have any place there except as an obstacle to the creative truth of the moment? Thought as time, as memory has its place of course but not there. There, emptiness seems to be what is 'proper'.The negation I'd say is by this so called "integral awareness" seeing the 'whole' of the functioning of the body, heart and mind. It is a different awareness than the ordinary in the sense that it is not 'partial'. It sees the habitual activity of thought arising and then being met by the 'thinker'. This is the root of conflict and suffering if the awareness is only in the 'thinker'...I recently read a quote by K that there has to be a "tranquil mind" and it's the 'seeing' of the false duality of thinker/thought that I'd say brings that about... And with the 'tranquil mind' the deeper, more unconscious 'fragments' (that Tom was asking about) according to K. can reveal themselves..

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #83
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1569 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes...seeing (integrally) the observer fragment is key

I think that's right. Personally, I've been going through some physical pain but it was nothing compared to the thoughts I was having about where this pain was all going, what I would have to face, how it would all end up, etc. Fairly intense. And then walking in the woods, there was my body walking along and with something that seemed like a 'radio' playing non-stop in my head. It was as if 'I' was part of the 'radio' but now for an instant, there was an 'awareness' of it all, the 'whole package'. I had had this question of what was meant by "integral awareness" and it seemed that this was what it was: freedom from the known. The suffering, conflict, fear, etc is all on the part of this 'observer' or 'thinker' fragment separating itself from thought...thought 'seized' on this insight but it was obvious in the moment that it could not be 'owned' by thought because, it was beyond it and had nothing to do with, and could never be a part of the past, the known...

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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 #84
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
. And with the 'tranquil mind' the deeper, more unconscious 'fragments' (that Tom was asking about) according to K. can reveal themselves..

As I increasingly see the things, the subconscious is much more active than the consious mind.. It dominates the conscious. I see a seething mass of thoughts/feelings in the subconscious, and bubbles forming in this, which float upwards and enter the conscious mind. They BECOME the conscious mind. Does this resonate with anyone?

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Sat, 16 Nov 2019 #85
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette wrote:
What have you got to lose? Either way - subterfuge or no subterfuge - it might not get approved. At least if you start with complete honesty, you can continue on with honesty without the need for continued dumbing down or undercover job. It seems to me that honesty is not an option. Without honesty, there is corruption, isn't there? Then the whole thing is lost anyway. I say this hesitantly. It might not be so.

You put several questions in this post of yours, Huguette. And in # 68 I attempted some answers, and put some questions back to you. I was not at all confident about what I wrote, and I have continued to ponder the issue, and discuss with friends - who have a variety of opinions. Such is the nature of opinions, of course.

But since writing #62 you have not come back into the discussion, I don't know why. May I invite you back into the discussion, unless you have strong objections?

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Sat, 16 Nov 2019 #86
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 775 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
you have not come back into the discussion, I don't know why

Simply, my energy and attention have been taken up with some personal concerns. Nonetheless, this project of yours has still been on my mind. I have been looking at it anew. No, I have not been an educator but the question of education touches all of us, I think. We see even very young children already pulled in by social media, by the cool kids, by fashion, by superficialities, by competition, by ambition, and so on. There are the problems of bullying, despair, depression, hurts, mean teachers, and so on. How do we deal with them? How do we help the children? Just throw them to the wolves and let them be devoured? I understand the difficulty. Do we do nothing? Do we do something but what?

I hope you don't mind if I don't go back and read the previous posts for now. If there's something specific you want to go into together, let me know. I had put down some thoughts, completely scratched out the old. This is what came out. I have no idea if it has any value or truth to it.

A Proposal for Inward Looking Activity in the Classroom

Isn’t it imperative that children as well as adults learn to be aware of the movements of their own minds? We adults have not been educated to understand the workings of our own minds. Therefore we do not “know ourselves” in the sense that ancient wisdom advised. After all, one’s own mind is what dictates all one’s actions. We do what we do because of the thoughts and emotions which arise in the mind. The wars, brutality, corruption, lies, injustice, pollution of air, water and crops, and so on and so on --- all these are actions which are engendered by the mind, rooted in thought and emotion. This mind is therefore the root of the global chaos. The crisis is rooted in our own thought processes and contradictions. We believe we act intelligently, but can we be acting intelligently if we are unacquainted with our own minds, inner contradictions, fears, pretenses, conceits, motives and so on?

So it is crucial for us to look inwardly with brutal honesty and become acquainted with what is truly going on in the mind. It is “brutal” because it is actually a blow, psychologically, to observe oneself as one actually is inwardly and not as one imagined oneself to be, or as the fictitious persona one tries to project outwardly.

Of course, the approach to inward looking cannot be the same for children as for adults. We are not advocating forcing children to face the crisis which we adults don’t know how to face. In any case, understanding cannot be forced or reached through any kind of practice. We must also be careful not to impose the activity on the children as a chore or obligation --- but as a fun thing. And it IS a fun thing for children to discover how their minds constantly jump from one thing to another; how their mind is following one thought one minute and the next minute it is onto another thought and they cannot even recall the previous thought their mind was following; how their thoughts affect how they feel; how their thoughts and emotions change from moment to moment; how their thoughts are in contradiction with each other and with their emotions, and so on. It is a discovery and discovery is fun. And as they mature, their observations might lead them to see the serious implications of such inward looking.

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Wed, 20 Nov 2019 #87
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
How do we help the children? Just throw them to the wolves and let them be devoured

For my own children, we mostly home-educated them. Sometimes called "home-schooling", but we certainly did not wish to reproduce the school system and values in the home! I have at times attempted with others to create small schools, but I did not have what it takes to do that, especially when it came to dealing with the establishment.

Huguette . wrote:
A Proposal for Inward Looking Activity in the Classroom

Yes Huguette, all that you write is ...... I am tempted to use the word perfect. It is how it is, it is factual. And, considering the discussion that has gone before, I now feel that it is false to think in terms of 'compromising truth'.

Would or will your words have any effect on the vast majority of people? One has to say: no. Would they have an effect on teachers, educators? Perhaps a little? But one sees trying to judge "effects" is in itself questionable. Should such considerations have any input into one's actions? The word "should" is now questionable. I am not clear on this. One only has so much time and energy to devote, should one not use it carefully? Perhaps decisions can only be made on an issue by issue basis, at the time, in the moment.

I shall incorporate your words into my proposal, and I will keep you, the forum, informed about my progress. Thank you for your on-going interest and work.

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