Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

" Have you ever sat very quietly without any movement?"


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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #31
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To me it is very sad that Think On These Things is looked at a little dismissively, as being for children.

I don't think that it’s dismissing its value to say it's for children, is it? It IS for children. Certainly children experience sorrow and suffering but one cannot approach the root of it as one does with grownups, can one?

One cannot say to children, “To understand the nature of freedom, one must understand the nature of emptiness and space, and again, all that is meditation. Only when the mind is totally empty and there is no center which creates space, and therefore there is space, is the mind completely quiet” (Fifth Dialogue in Saanen, 1965)

And can one say to adults who are suffering to try doing this "as fun"?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #32
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Aren't you conflating 'enlightenment' with 'awareness'?

"Enlightenment" is not a word K used too much for good reason. It's too bound up in an idea of permanent attainment. It's too connected to Buddhism or some Eastern religious ideas.

But enlightenment is simply the undivided. And that, in fact, is what awareness is.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: Or is it the relationship of the brain dispassionately observing the whole of the moment - including itself, its movements, its thoughts and emotions - without commenting on what it observes (or observing also any "comments" which do arise), without differentiating between all that it sees. This is the relationship of the brain to the whole, without exclusion.

Is the brain of man ever in a dispassionate state? Is mine? It’s certainly not when I’m faced with a problem...a terrible conflict or psychological/emotional suffering...like terrible anxiety or dread or guilt or some such emotion. It’s obviously not dispassionate then. When there’s a deep emotional disturbance can I be dispassionate? It’s a contradiction in terms I think.

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #34
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I don't think that it’s dismissing its value to say it's for children, is it? It IS for children.

Think On These Things is a collection of talks K gave to children and adults were present, too. But it is for anyone of any age who is able to read it.

Let me put it this way: You won't find it in the library next to Dr. Seuss.

And yes, you can say to adults who are suffering, "Try doing this (quiet sitting watching your thoughts) as fun." That is exactly what they need, a little fun, a little loosening and letting go, to see what is: the very suffering they are going through, and all the thought and attachment bound up in that.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #35
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You won't find it in the library next to Dr. Seuss

This doesn't mean anything. You might find "The Little Prince" with children's books or with adult books. You likely also won't find "The Butter Battle Book" by Dr. Seuss in the library next to other books by Dr. Seuss. It was banned from some libraries.

idiot ? wrote:
That is exactly what they need, a little fun, a little loosening and letting go, to see what is

There's absolutely nothing wrong with fun per se, and self-observation CAN be fun. But would you really say to someone in a moment of suffering, "what you need is some fun"? What is needed is self-understanding, isn't it? And in fact, isn't the pursuit of fun or pleasure the usual way of avoiding the fact of suffering?

The point was that, in the matter of self-understanding, one can't take the same approach with children as with adults, and it doesn't demean children to say so.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #36
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Does anyone know if K ever advocated such meditation to children outside of India?

And did he advocate it to adults, anywhere?

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
And yes, you can say to adults who are suffering, "Try doing this (quiet sitting watching your thoughts) as fun." That is exactly what they need, a little fun, a

K called self understanding ....self knowledge ...a very “arduous” undertaking. His word. Not exactly fun and games when one suffers deeply ....and to understand the root of that is indeed arduous

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Following, I am going to present a document that I have just composed. Its function is to present “K meditation” (a term I have just invented, no reference to Krishnamurti at all) to schools or institutions; basically a request for me to try it out with children. So as you see I have adapted K’s words, and tried to relate it to “Mindfulness Meditation” because that is something that people already know of.

I am actually interested in the possibility of doing this with children, somehow, if such a thing were possible.

So I would very much appreciate people’s feedback. As I say, this is just a first attempt at the introduction, I am sure it will develop.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

K Meditation

First, let me state what K meditation is not:

It is not based on any belief system or ideology, and does not seek to impose such things on children’s minds.

It is not propaganda.

It is not the application of a methodology or system, not repetitious and so does not make the mind mechanical.

It is not analysis or therapy.

So what is the intention of it?

First of all, it is concerned basically with self-understanding. Without understanding ourselves, what basis do we have for understanding anything? As the ancient Greeks said “The unexamined life is not worth living”. And, “Know Thyself”, as is inscribed over the entrance gate to the temple of Delphi.

Like Mindfulness meditation, K meditation may bring about a certain quietness, a calmness of the mind and body.

After the meditation, it should give rise to a number of questions, based on what the children have observed in them selves. A dialogue is encouraged over these questions. Such a group enquiry is seen to be at least as important as the meditation itself, and may encourage children into a more questioning attitude towards life and themselves.

The self observation, which is the essence of the meditation, may take root in the children, and may spread into their everyday lives, so they become more aware of their inner processes, and their relationship to the world around them.

Is K meditation the same as Mindfulness meditation?

Although it may seem so at first glance, there are essential differences between the two. K meditation does not focus on the breath, there is no mental imagery. No mental effort is involved. One is not trying to achieve any particular state of mind. It is not a practice.

So what does one do?

This is how children are initially instructed:

Sit quietly, with as little movement as possible. Sit really still, with your back straight, and observe what your mind is doing. Don’t try to control it, don't say it should not jump from one thought to another, from one interest to another, but just be aware of how your mind is jumping. Don't do anything about it, but watch it as if you were watching a river flowing by.

And later:
In the flowing river there are so many things - fishes, leaves, bits of rubbish, - but it is always living, moving, and your mind is like that. Isn’t your mind everlastingly restless, flitting from one thing to another like a butterfly? So just watch it, don’t try to do anything about it, don’t try to change it. Don’t judge it, don’t condemn it. Just watch it as it moves.

Following on

K meditation is very flexible. It could be a one-off activity, or presented over a number of sessions, expanding its horizon each time. Questions that children raise could become a theme over a number of weeks. Observations that are made or suggested by individual children could be tested out in further meditation sessions, either immediately or in subsequent sessions. Instead of merely observing their thoughts, sessions can be held where they try to write them down as appear. Such writings can be then read out loud (if the children are willing) and discussed.

One feels this activity could be presented to children over a wide age group. And it can be presented as a fun thing to do.

Some Fundamental Questions that can be enquired into:

Who is the thinker of thoughts?
Is there a controller of thoughts?
Where do thoughts come from?
What are feelings? Where are they felt?
Are there times when thought is not there?
Why are we not usually aware of thought?

The possibilities are endless.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #40
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Does anyone know if K ever advocated such meditation to children outside of India?

And did he advocate it to adults, anywhere?

-

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is one of the most extraordinary things, and if you do not know what it is you are like the blind man in a world of bright colour, shadows and moving light. It is not an intellectual affair, but when the heart enters into the mind, the mind has quite a different quality: it is really, then, limitless, not only in its capacity to think, to act efficiently, but also in its sense of living in a vast space where you are part of everything. Meditation is the movement of love.

-

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is one of the greatest arts in life - perhaps the greatest, and one cannot possibly learn it from anybody. That is the beauty of it. It has no technique and therefore no authority.

-

Krishnamurti:
It's curious how all-important meditation becomes; there's no end to it nor is there a beginning to it. It's like a raindrop: in that drop are all the streams, great rivers, the seas, the waterfalls; that drop nourishes the earth and man; without it, the earth would be a desert. Without meditation, the heart becomes a desert, a wasteland.

-

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is to find out whether the brain, with all the activities, all its experiences, can be absolutely quiet. Not forced, because the moment you force, there is a duality. The entity that says, "I would like to have marvelous experiences, therefore I must force my brain to be quiet," will never do it. But if you begin to inquire, observe, listen to all the movements of thought, its conditioning, its pursuits, its fears, its pleasures, watch how the brain operates, then you will see that the brain becomes extraordinarily quiet; that quietness is not sleep but is tremendously active.

-

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is not a means to an end. It is both the means and the end.

-

Krishnamurti:
What an extraordinary thing meditation is...Maturity in meditation is the freeing of the mind from knowledge, for knowledge shapes and controls experience. A mind which is a light unto itself needs no experience.

-

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is never in time; time cannot bring about mutation. Time can bring about change, which then needs to be changed again, like all reforms. Meditation that springs out of time is always binding; there is no freedom in it and without freedom there is always choice and conflict...To meditate is to be innocent of time.

All of the above are from the book Meditations, which has end notes that cite the source books and talks from which these quotes are drawn. In many books and talks, K refers again and again to meditation and its importance. Now what he means by the word may be elusive. As well as what he says meditation is not. But there is no question that it is of the utmost importance.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #41
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
All of the above are from the book Meditations.

But Id, K seems to put a great variety of meanings on the word meditation. He says at times "what we are doing here, discussing, is a form of meditation". I have never assumed that when he uses the word he always means in a 'formal' sense, sitting quietly alone. Do he not say it can take place anywhere, sitting on a bus, watching one's children, etc?

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #42
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
K seems to put a great variety of meanings on the word meditation...Do he not say it can take place anywhere, sitting on a bus, watching one's children, etc?

He does not use the word restricted to quiet solitary sitting only, nor does he restrict it to a particular posture or activity. But neither does he exclude quiet sitting.

I would not say that he uses the word with many meanings. He is using it to point to something of the utmost importance. What is that something? What is it not? K has a lot to say about it, some of which I posted above.

Here's another:

Krishnamurti:
Meditation is emptying the mind of the known.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #43
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1489 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Krishnamurti:

Meditation is emptying the mind of the known.

K."If you only knew what you have missed – that vast emptiness”

Dan: Why pretend that we know anything about this? Isn't it obvious that we don't...let's start there.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #44
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
"that vast emptiness” Why pretend that we know anything about this?

Or does everyone know it? But we bury it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #45
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1489 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

D:"that vast emptiness” Why pretend that we know anything about this?

I: Or does everyone know it? But we bury it.

D: In very early childhood perhaps?

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #46
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I would not say that he uses the word with many meanings. He is using it to point to something of the utmost importance. What is that something?

Yes, I reading that book myself recently. It is all very profound.

K once said that Universe is in a state of Meditation

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #47
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I would very much appreciate people’s feedback

I do have a suggestion but only for your following paragraph:

Clive Elwell wrote:
So what is the intention of it?

First of all, it is concerned basically with self-understanding. Without understanding ourselves, what basis do we have for understanding anything? As the ancient Greeks said “The unexamined life is not worth living”. And, “Know Thyself”, as is inscribed over the entrance gate to the temple of Delphi.

Here are my suggestions and don't feel obliged even to reply. It may not mean anything to you.

First of all, it is concerned basically with self-understanding. Without understanding ourselves, are we not bound to be controlled by the patterns of thought, emotion and action established by our elders from time immemorial? Whether we conform to social pressures or rebel against them, our actions are shaped by these patterns. Without self-understanding, we - like the generations before us - are bound to be products of the social environment of family, school, friends, and so on. Self-understanding is not a static or unchanging conclusion put together by examining one’s memories and future ambitions. One can only understand oneself in the present moment by unflinchingly observing oneself - one’s actions, thoughts and emotions - without condemnation or justification.

Is it not because we do not understand the root cause of our actions that we human beings are repeating the age-old conflictual behaviours of our ancestors? Isn't this lack of self-understanding the reason that we have been unable to forge a completely new society of peace and harmony, justice and affection? Like our forefathers, we are carried forward like flotsam and jetsam by the river of time. But it is clear that a radical change is needed. So self-understanding is not just a matter of (added:) feeling better, (end of addition) getting better grades or succeeding in life. Self-understanding allows the full maturing and blossoming of humanity.

If we adults understand the importance of self-understanding even though we do not fully understand “how” to go about it, we must still somehow introduce the subject of self-observation to our children, mustn't we? We must do so without pretending that we adults know all about it or what the outcome should be. We must be serious without frightening them. We can tell them that life is serious but it is also fun and that this activity is both serious and fun and that, as they get older, they will find out more and more that is fascinating about it.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #48
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To me it is very sad that Think On These Things is looked at a little dismissively, as being for children. It was the first book I read by K. I was about nineteen or twenty when I read it. And it had more impact on my life than any other book ever has.

It is an excellent book indeed (originally called "This matter of Culture). As is a very similar book, "Life Ahead". As an educator, I often turned to these books seeking inspiration on working with children.

If they have a disadvantage, in the west, it is that they quite "Indian". Many of the questions that children put were very much a result of being immersed in Indian culture, values. But still there is a wealth of material in these books, and as you say, Id, applicable to everyone, young and old.

But I doubt they are ever looked at in mainstream education

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #49
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
idiot ? wrote:

Dan McDermott wrote:
D:"that vast emptiness” Why pretend that we know anything about this?
I: Or does everyone know it? But we bury it.

D: In very early childhood perhaps?

I doubt any of us adults other than a very tiny minority know anything about it. What we do know is conflict and beliefs and suffering however. Perhaps we can investigate the cause of our/human suffering and leave the emptiness alone, as attempting to know it is meaningless given our state of non emptiness.

Let it Be

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #50
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1489 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
On the other hand, if you understand enlightenment the real way, moment to moment, and not a permanent attainment, then every single ordinary person in the entire world is enlightened for any split second when they are simply aware. In that moment they are undivided, not in the separation of thought/time.

Question: Will you please explain what you mean by awareness? (Amsterdam 5th talk May 26,1955)

Krishnamurti: Just simple awareness! Awareness of your judgments, your prejudices, your likes and dislikes. When you see something, that seeing is the outcome of your comparison, condemnation, judgment, evaluation, is it not? When you read something you are judging, you are criticizing, you are condemning or approving. To be aware is to see, in the very moment, this whole process of judging, evaluating, the conclusions, the conformity, the acceptances, the denials. Now, can one be aware without all that? At present all we know is a process of evaluating, and that evaluation is the outcome of our conditioning, of our background, of our religious, moral and educational influences. Such so-called awareness is the result of our memory, - memory as the 'me', the Dutchman. the Hindu, the Buddhist. the Catholic, or whatever it may be. It is the 'me', - my memories, my family, my property, my qualities, - which is looking judging, evaluating. With that we are quite familiar, if we are at all alert. Now, can there be awareness without all that, without the self? Is it possible just to look without condemnation, just to observe the movement of the mind, one's own mind, without judging, without evaluating, without saying 'It is good', or 'It is bad'? The awareness which springs from the self, which is the awareness of evaluation and judgment, always creates duality, the conflict of the opposites, - that which is and that which should be. In that awareness there is judgment, there is fear, there is evaluation, condemnation, identification. That is but the awareness of the 'me', of the self, of the 'I' with all its traditions. memories, and all the rest of it. Such awareness always creates conflict between the observer and the observed, between what I am and what I should be. Now. is it possible to be aware without this process of condemnation, judgment, evaluation? Is it possible to look at myself, whatever my thoughts are, and not condemn, not judge, not evaluate? I do not know if you have ever tried it. It is quite arduous, - because all our training from childhood leads us to condemn or to approve. And in the process of condemnation and approval there is frustration, there is fear, there is a gnawing pain, anxiety, which is the very process of the 'me', the self.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #51
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Here’s another excerpt on ‘awareness’:
“And as fear cannot free itself through any means, for all its efforts spring from its own source, there must be the cessation of all intellectual safeguards. This cessation comes, spontaneously, when the mind reveals to itself its own process. This takes place only when there is integral awareness, which is not the result of a discipline, or of a moral or economic system, or of enforcement.

Each one has to become aware of the process of ignorance, the illusions that one has created. Intellect cannot lead you out of this present chaos, confusion and suffering.” Ommen, Holland | 8th Public Talk 10th August, 1937

Let it Be

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #52
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Well how can there be self understanding if much of our conditioning remains deeply hidden?

H: Self-understanding does not lie in remembering or knowing the full content of consciousness - every word, every memory, every painful and pleasant experience, every grudge, every hope, and so on. Self-understanding lies in understanding the processes of the brain which create the contradictions of the separate self, which follows its own and others’ authority,

Agree totally with your last sentence Huguette. Of course I didn’t mean one must recall everything from one’s past. Some very significant conditioning does remain hidden however. Whether it’s of any significance to uncover it or not, I can’t say for certain. I suspect it will continue to control our actions if it remains hidden however. I might be mistaken here. Possibly one can uncover the whole mechanism of the past interfering in the present awareness...influencing present actions and reactions.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #53
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Some very significant conditioning does remain hidden however. Whether it’s of any significance to uncover it or not, I can’t say for certain. I suspect it will continue to control our actions if it remains hidden however.

But isn’t the hidden conditioning actually revealed whenever fear, jealousy, anxiety, greed, desire, etc., arise? Again, this “revelation” may not be accompanied by a specific memory. It is the emotion all by itself which reveals the conditioning and to be fully attentive to the conditioned response without resorting to the word - without naming, explaining, etc. - IS self-understanding --- in my understanding :o)

Does it matter where or when a fear first arose? The fear that is experienced in the moment is what distorts action or relationship, isn’t it? To observe the fear without explaining it, without the word, means that instantly action is not driven BY the fear. So that something new enters into my own relationship with fear and my relationship with others, doesn’t it?

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #54
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: Does it matter where or when a fear first arose? The fear that is experienced in the moment is what distorts action or relationship, isn’t it?

T: Yes it does in fact distort both. But we may not even be aware of the action/relationship being influenced by fear. I go to church religiously every Sunday. If my teenage daughter refuses to go, I may get angry. I may not be aware that my action is influenced by fear...fear of punishment from an angry God, for example. I conform to society’s expectations out of fear. Am I even aware that I’m conforming....that fear is behind this? Personally, I wasn’t aware of much of my own conformity(and fear) until reading K. So, let’s say I get very angry when my daughter or son refuses to attend church with me every Sunday. You are saying that the emotion....if I don’t label or judge...will reveal the conditioning behind it? I quote you below:

It is the emotion all by itself which reveals the conditioning and to be fully attentive to the conditioned response without resorting to the word - without naming, explaining, etc. - IS self-understanding --- in my understanding :o)

Today’s QOTD:
New York City | 1st Public Talk 11th March, 1935

The whole process of living, which should be a continual fulfillment and therefore a continual penetration into reality, into what is true, is completely destroyed through this worship of authority, of specialists, of creeds, of theories. The whole process is to make the individual subservient, to make him obey and follow (out of fear...Tom). Thus he gradually becomes unconscious of everything but the pattern, and he exists as much as he can within the edicts of that pattern, and he calls that living. Environment becomes only the mould to shape him. So, then, the individual, as he is now, is nothing else than the exaggerated expression of environment, environment being the past and the present, the inherited and the acquired.New York City | 1st Public Talk 11th March, 1935

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #55
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You are saying that the emotion....if I don’t label or judge...will reveal the conditioning behind it?

No, not “will reveal” but “reveals”. In the very moment that fear etc. is felt and not distorted, repressed or ignored, it is understood that conditioning lies beneath it, isn’t it? And it follows that all the words of condemnation, approval, justification, denial, and so on of that fear are in turn rooted in that fear and therefore rooted in conditioning. No? In labeling, judging, etc., I am making either myself or someone else the authority in the matter, including when my child refuses to obey.

So to say that “I may not be aware that my action is influenced by fear” has no bearing on awareness being the key to self-understanding. Nothing can be done about that fact. Awareness is essential. That’s why, it seems to me, it is irrelevant and an avoidance for me to worry about what “others” do in regard to these issues.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #56
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1489 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is K meditation the same as Mindfulness meditation?

Although it may seem so at first glance, there are essential differences between the two. K meditation does not focus on the breath, there is no mental imagery. No mental effort is involved. One is not trying to achieve any particular state of mind. It is not a practice.

Thinking some on this, I ask why don't you just own this? Leave "K" out of it. Make it yours. Put your name on it. That it derives in part from some influence or other is beside the point, isn't it? You are presenting it in a specific form, with direction, keeping it separate from others that it may be confused with, etc....Feldenkreis body awareness comes to mind.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: In labeling, judging, etc., I am making either myself or someone else the authority in the matter, including when my child refuses to obey.

Yes...an important point. The rest of your message isn’t clear though. Will have to come back to it later. What ‘others’ do is what I do....it’s the same conditioned reacting....the same lack of awareness.

Let it Be

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #58
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

You had said:

Yes it (i.e. fear) does in fact distort both (i.e. both action and relationship). But we may not even be aware of the action/relationship being influenced by fear. I go to church religiously every Sunday. If my teenage daughter refuses to go, I may get angry. I may not be aware that my action is influenced by fear...fear of punishment from an angry God, for example. I conform to society’s expectations out of fear. Am I even aware that I’m conforming....that fear is behind this?

Yes, what others do is what I do. But you specifically ARE aware that fear does distort, aren’t you? Or at least, aware at moments, and unaware at other moments. We have talked before, you and I, of using “we” or “I”. Sometimes “we” is appropriate, and sometimes only “I” is accurate. The particular brain represents the brain of mankind, yes.

But, in a moment of awareness, it is the particular brain that is aware or unaware. In the moment where the particular brain is aware directly of its own movement creating fear /“me”, that actual awareness is not the false awareness of the “separate thinker separate from the brain”. That actual awareness is not operating in every brain at the same moment.

Awareness is not the idea of awareness masquerading as awareness. It is direct, immediate, unfragmented. So where the particular brain IS aware of fear at the very moment fear arises, and the thought also arises, “I may not be aware that my action is influenced by fear”, isn’t there awareness both of fear and of the thought, without the division of thought into "me" and "not me", into "me" and "fear", and so on?

Also:

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-future-of-...

DB: I think that it would help if we could see with regard to the brain whether it has any activity which is beyond thought. You see, for example, one could ask, is awareness part of the function of the brain?

JK: As long as it is awareness in which there is no choice.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 06 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But, in a moment of awareness, it is the particular brain that is aware or unaware.

Indeed. The state of my neighbor’s brain is irrelevant. Your meaning in the last paragraph isn’t clear. You lost me there. Can you express this differently?

Let it Be

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #60
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Here are my suggestions and don't feel obliged even to reply. It may not mean anything to you.

It does mean a lot to me, Huguette. Every word that you write is true, meaningful, and important.

My concern is that it is not sort of document that an overworked headmaster, for example, will consider very much if it is in his inbox on Monday morning. I feel I would have to do an "undercover job" to get this activity into schools. And a certain amount of 'dummbing down' would have to take place. Some compromise. I'm afraid people in the system can only think and make decisions in terms of what fits into the system. Although I don't want to be dishonest.

But I agree my brief statements about self understanding do need fleshing out. Perhaps I could assimilate some of your words, into my document, and present your whole passage as an appendix.

Thank you for your contribution, Huguette, and I will get back to you on this.

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