Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

" Have you ever sat very quietly without any movement?"


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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I’d say that what k was recommending (post 102) was a pretty meaningless exercise...like something in a Buddhist monastery...or a zen practice. When there’s deep discontent...deep conflict...then perhaps one will look and learn. Otherwise this exercise is just a practice...a method...that may bring an experience of peace or silence...yet it has little to do with self understanding. As I’m seeing it, and it’s quite possible I’m mistaken.

By starting a new thread on this, I do not wish to draw energy away from the previous thread, the "true function of the brain" subject, which I think has some way to go.

Firstly, here is the quote again.Krishnamurti, Think On These Things, Chapter 5:

HAVE YOU EVER sat very quietly without any movement? You try it, sit really still, with your back straight, and observe what your mind is doing. Don`t try to control it, don't say it should not jump from one thought to another, from one interest to another, but just be aware of how your mind is jumping. Don't do anything about it, but watch it as from the banks of a river you watch the water flow by. In the flowing river there are so many things - fishes, leaves, dead animals - but it is always living, moving, and your mind is like that. It is everlastingly restless, flitting from one thing to another like a butterfly.
When you listen to a song, how do you listen to it? You may like the person who is singing, he may have a nice face, and you may follow the meaning of the words; but behind all that, when you listen to a song, you are listening to the tones and to the silence between the tones, are you not? In the same way, try sitting very quietly without fidgeting, without moving your hands or even your toes, and just watch your mind. It is great fun. If you try it as fun, as an amusing thing, you will find that the mind begins to settle down without any effort on your part to control it. There is then no censor, no judge, no evaluator; and when the mind is thus very quiet of itself, spontaneously still, you will discover what it is to be gay. Do you know what gaiety is? It is just to laugh, to take delight in anything or nothing, to know the joy of living, smiling, looking straight into the face of another without any sense of fear.

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I’d say that what k was recommending (post 102) was a pretty meaningless exercise...like something in a Buddhist monastery...or a zen practice. When there’s deep discontent...deep conflict...then perhaps one will look and learn. Otherwise this exercise is just a practice...a method...that may bring an experience of peace or silence...yet it has little to do with self understanding. As I’m seeing it, and it’s quite possible I’m mistaken.

Are you sure of this, Tom? I was quite taken by it, as an exercise for children, and I'd like to discuss it. I have for some time pondered on the possibility of somehow taking, in some way, Krishnamurti's basic "teachings" into schools. (if schools allowed that of course). Best not to mention his name, I think. And how to engage the children's attention? They would, I think, quickly get bored by words, lectures. By dialogue, enquiring together? Perhaps. but doing this "exercise" seems to hold a lot of possibility. It is really concerned with self-understanding, is it not? And as K says, without understanding oneself, one has no basis for understanding anything.

By looking inward, one is immediately going into the source of man's problems (one doesn't have to say that in the classroom). but it might just be a 'fun thing to do'.

It has the advantage that people (teachers, those who take decisions) would almost certainly relate it to the practice of Mindfulness, which seems to have become fairly accepted in schools (as a way of quieting restless minds and bodies. Of course it isn't the same really, is it? In what way is it not the same? K does suggest that the ultimate aim is to still the mind.

Seems to me this exercise, if one calls it that, might generate quite a few questions afterwards. So it could give rise to a genuine dialogue (not being instructed by a teacher). This questioning might be of more value than the exercise.

I see more possibilities, but it is late and I am tired. I would appreciate any input on this.

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #3
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1490 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
Of course it isn't the same really, is it? (as 'mindfulness") In what way is it not the same? K does suggest that the ultimate aim is to still the mind.

When there is a psychological goal, there is the introduction of 'time', an illusory future when something that is desired will take place. It could be next moment or next year. It is an 'escape' from what is...If I sit quietly with a desire to 'become' more calm. less agitated, etc., I want to 'substitute' my immediate (scattered'?) state for something more 'desirous'. If I feel a twinge of 'jealousy' say, I immediately try to move away from it, rationalize it, suppress it etc....but no matter what escape takes place the 'original' sensation of 'jealousy', 'envy', etc. remains untouched in the brain (since childhood?). I am 'violent', I am 'petty', I am 'frightened'...these sensations are never directly ("intensely") looked at in my self, because of the ways we have learned to escape from them. We seem to refuse (or to be incapable) to look at ourselves as we are. Yet it is reasonable isn't it, that unless these sensations, jealousy, hatred, greed, racism, nationalism, fear of loneliness , phobias, violence, dependency, conflicts, etc., completely dissolve or disappear, a desire for a "still mind" is just another escape?

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: I am 'violent', I am 'petty', I am 'frightened'...these sensations are never directly ("intensely") looked at in my self, because of the ways we have learned to escape from them.

Indeed...and escape we will until escape becomes unavoidable in a moment of crisis. I suspect that our strong emotions and deep conditionings are not going to surface in a quiet classroom environment. They'll likely remain safely hidden...buried...deep in the unconscious. These kind of meditation exercises aren't likely to touch them.

We seem to refuse (or to be incapable) to look at ourselves as we are

Indeed and only a moment of crisis or a deeply felt conflict will force us into a corner where we have no choice but to look....or where we have an intense desire to look. K in a moment of frustration when talking to some administrators and/or faculty members of one of the schools asked, "Have we produced even one child who is free?"

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 03 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #5
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is really concerned with self-understanding, is it not? And as K says, without understanding oneself, one has no basis for understanding anything.

By looking inward, one is immediately going into the source of man's problems (one doesn't have to say that in the classroom). but it might just be a 'fun thing to do'.

It's a strong tendency of humans to escape the deep and painful, or hurtful, conditioning we all get as children. I think it will remain deeply buried...hidden away...in a classroom exercise like that, Clive. It's the nature of the human brain to protect itself from hurt; and emotional hurt...though only based in thought...is felt as a threat to the security of the brain, isn't it? Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, but it's been my own personal experience that hurts and inner conflicts remain deeply and safely hidden unless they surface in a crisis or deep conflict. Perhaps the kids who attend the K schools are too sheltered in a safe environment? I can't say for sure, but it's a possibility, isn't it?

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

How can I take what K says and that I understand intellectually, and apply it to my life? How can I make it real, melded to day to day living, and not just an intellectual inquiry?

One approach is self knowledge. Following every thought and reaction throughout the day, alone and in relationship. If I am irritated, seeing that that is a kind of anger, seeing that some kind of attachment is happening, that I am holding on to something, seeing that that attachment is my conditioning, seeing how my irritation results in conflict, either with another or with myself, and so on. Awareness of what is. And if there is full awareness, possible freedom from the irritation. That is, I see my trivial holding on to something and how that is fighting against reality, and I drop it. All this is part of what K calls self knowledge, yes?

And I believe this is what Tom Paine is advocating as so essential for practical application of K teaching.

K says that self knowledge is the beginning of meditation. As to what K means by real meditation, and how he contrasts that with so called meditation techniques taught by religions or others, is a big and important topic. When K gave talks that stretched over multiple days, he usually reserved the subject of meditation for the final day. That is, he felt it was important to lay a ground work before going into the complex question of meditation.

To me, meditation is essential. It is the actual and works on levels far beyond what the thinking brain can understand. It is simple, and yet one must be extremely careful about what it is not. It is the practical, the living, the moment to moment. It is the opposite of the intellectual, the intellectual being depth thinking. Deep thinking may be useful. But it cannot touch clear silence of mind, quiet awareness.

What Larry Rosenberg discusses in his interview and what K says at the beginning of Chapter 5 of Think On These Things are two of the very clearest expressions of quiet sitting meditation. Real meditation is never about getting something, about attaining something. Real meditation is what is. And yet quiet sitting meditation, working in ways the brain doesn't understand, may awaken a vitality, an energetic aliveness that K is talking about, and this aliveness is far beyond the intellectual, the thinking understanding.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 03 Nov 2019.

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #7
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
And yet quiet sitting meditation, working in ways the brain doesn't understand, may awaken a vitality, an energetic aliveness that K is talking about, and this aliveness is far beyond the intellectual, the thinking understanding.

And this sitting meditation will dissolve the deep conditioned beliefs, ideals, ideas, conflicts, dogmas, fears? Erase all that? Interesting that you believe that, idiot? Not saying it can't happen. It may, in some freak case, I can't say, but you read the quote about the schools I shared above I assume? Has this kind of meditation exercise ended conflict in any single human being, do you think?

Let it Be

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It is the practical, the living, the moment to moment.

Could you expand upon this Id? I'm sitting quietly in my room or a classroom. Of course I'm living. My mind is wandering all over the place. Do I take any action whatsoever to control it? What do you mean by practical and moment to moment?

Let it Be

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And this sitting meditation will dissolve the deep conditioned beliefs, ideals, ideas, conflicts, dogmas, fears? Erase all that?

If it is done to accomplish something, it has already gone astray, evaporating what is into an idea/image of something desired.

To sit quietly is not to erase, to make all the nasty go away. The truth is inclusion, not exclusion. What is is what is. To sit quietly is to be open to what is, not to be apart from it.

Outside my window right now is a great tree and its branches and leaves move gently in a breeze. The morning sunlight catches on some of the leaves. It is beautiful. To be still and just open to this great beauty does not erase the ugliness in this world. But it opens the heart, it connects, and there is present moment renewal. It is very simple. It is not a thinking matter.

What can deal with beliefs, ideals, conflicts, dogmas, fears? Can anything? Maybe not. But maybe a loving heart, which is no different than quiet awareness, can very simply, for a moment, transform a tiny corner of this world, and maybe in a very small way it will ripple out.

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If it is done to accomplish something, it has already gone astray, evaporating what is into an idea/image of something desired.

You misunderstood the basis of my question. I'm asking, in essence, has it succeeded in setting man free from conflict...violence...misery?

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Sun, 03 Nov 2019 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What can deal with beliefs, ideals, conflicts, dogmas, fears? Can anything? Maybe not. But maybe a loving heart, which is no different than quiet awareness, can very simply, for a moment, transform a tiny corner of this world, and maybe in a very small way it will ripple out.

For a moment, yes. Back at our job the next day, we're back in the world of conflict right? Or even in a marriage, conflict arises when desire isn't understood...when self isn't thoroughly understood

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #12
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom wrote:
Otherwise this exercise is just a practice...a method...that may bring an experience of peace or silence...yet it has little to do with self understanding.

Why do you say it is has little to do with self-understanding, Tom? We are talking about the simple, direct, observation of thought itself - and that thought IS the self, is it not, the self that needs to be understood?

Tom Paine wrote #4:
I suspect that our strong emotions and deep conditionings are not going to surface in a quiet classroom environment. They'll likely remain safely hidden...buried...deep in the unconscious. These kind of meditation exercises aren't likely to touch them.

But is/was the intention of this exercise TO understand the strong emotions and deep conditionings? I question if it was.

Tom Paine wrote:
Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, but it's been my own personal experience that hurts and inner conflicts remain deeply and safely hidden unless they surface in a crisis or deep conflict.

This may well be true Tom, but does the fact invalidate the exercise?

Tom Paine wrote #7:
And this sitting meditation will dissolve the deep conditioned beliefs, ideals, ideas, conflicts, dogmas, fears? Erase all that? Interesting that you believe that, idiot? Not saying it can't happen. It may, in some freak case, I can't say, but you read the quote about the schools I shared above I assume?

but was this sitting meditation ever seriously practised in the schools? We don't know the answer to that, but I doubt it. Listening to talks/discussions, K seemed pretty dissatisfied generally with what went on in the classrooms. And obviously the practice would need to be just a part of an overall approach of helping children to understand their conditioning.

I remember an ex director of one of the large Indian schools saying to me only a bare handful of the teachers had any interest in all in K's teachings. And most of them had never even heard of him! I heard that children could pass through (another) school without ever hearing the name Krishnamurti.

So I do not think we can judge the value of this practice by the comments you have quoted, Tom. how can we judge them? I will describe what seems to me to be its importance in a following post.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Why do you say it is has little to do with self-understanding, Tom? We are talking about the simple, direct, observation of thought itself - and that thought IS the self, is it not, the self that needs to be understood?

There’s superficial aspects of the self and there are totally unconscious, hidden, ones.
Much of our conditioning....based upon thought, yes...is buried deep in the unconscious. the deep conditioning won’t even surface in such exercises will it? There’s no way that just sitting quietly will bring it to the surface as we have a strong self protective mechanism that keeps it buried...hidden...I feel. Am I off base about this self protection? I recall my old childhood friend who got married and had children right after college without realizing that he was gay. His gay feelings were buried very deep and prevented from surfacing until he reached his early twenties. Homosexuality was condemned to such an extreme degree when he was young in the 50s and 60s that his feelings weren’t even allowed to surface. But he told me he knew he was somehow ‘different’ from an early age. I’ve discovered some deep, profound aspects of my own conditioning in the past couple of years that remained hidden for a few decades....in spite of much meditation (inquiring, looking, observing myself) over the years. I honestly don’t place any value on the kind of meditation idiot? was describing, but I can’t say it has no value for others. I probably learned a lot more from Ks books and talks than from self observation.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote #1:
When there is a psychological goal, there is the introduction of 'time', an illusory future when something that is desired will take place. It could be next moment or next year. It is an 'escape' from what is...If I sit quietly with a desire to 'become' more calm. less agitated, etc., I want to 'substitute' my immediate (scattered'?) state for something more 'desirous'.

The implication is that if one sits and follows an instruction to watch one's breath, there must be a desire to achieve something - achieve silence. Perhaps I don't know enough about the practice of Mindfulness to comment on this.

So is there a difference in K asking a group of children to watch their thoughts? He is not directly saying that they are trying to achieve silence,but he does say:>

" and when the mind is thus very quiet of itself, spontaneously still you will discover"

This would be quite a fine point, especially for children, no?. perhaps some would say: "Why should we do it if there is no purpose in it, if we are not going to get something from it?". This is how the conditioned mind works.

Possible responses:
1) i am challenging you to see if you can try something when there is no reward at the end of it
2) for fun.

Dan McDermott wrote:
I am 'violent', I am 'petty', I am 'frightened'...these sensations are never directly ("intensely") looked at in my self, because of the ways we have learned to escape from them. We seem to refuse (or to be incapable) to look at ourselves as we are. Yet it is reasonable isn't it, that unless these sensations, jealousy, hatred, greed, racism, nationalism, fear of loneliness , phobias, violence, dependency, conflicts, etc., completely dissolve or disappear, a desire for a "still mind" is just another escape?

Yes Dan, this is very true.The self, in its desire to be secure, undisturbed, is continually turning away, trying to avoid what is. But it can't, because it IS that.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, but it's been my own personal experience that hurts and inner conflicts remain deeply and safely hidden unless they surface in a crisis or deep conflict.

Clive - This may well be true Tom, but does the fact invalidate the exercise?

Well how can there be self understanding if much of our conditioning remains deeply hidden? K talked a lot about learning about oneself in the mirror of relationship. There’s no relationship sitting quietly in my room....only the relationship with my own thoughts and feelings....but very different than when the rubber meets the road out in the ‘real world’, I think...when my wife or child is terribly unhappy with something I did or said for instance. Suddenly there’s the feeling ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’, or ‘my wife shouldn’t be like that....should be different’....or I lose my temper and get angry...judge, condemn, feel superior...or feel inferior in some way. Here my conditioning comes to the surface if I am alert and attentive. Sitting alone meditating, probably not so much. But please feel free to challenge me on this. Personally I feel we learn most from observing our actions, feelings, and thoughts in real life relationships.....far more so than by meditation.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

K talked a lot about meditation. That is a fact. He talked about what is not real meditation, such as mantra meditation which dulls the mind, or meditation done for a reason, for a goal, or meditation done as an escape, or meditation with some particular image, or forced concentration, etc. He also talked a lot about real meditation, and about natural silence of the mind, about transformation.

And many people here seem to insist on cordoning off certain things he talked about! Yes, yes, he talked about those things but we can't know them, to do so is presumptuous. Let's stick to what we know, that we are miserable separate humans, and not get all high and mighty.

And then we wonder why K actually cried when a man came to him and said he had listened to him for decades but not really changed. Aren't we making K cry right now? We're happy to notice we get angry now and then. And do nothing about it. But to really dig into, to live! the whole of what he said, to thoroughly go into the entirety for ourselves? It's too much. Please don't disturb my comfortable cup of tea this morning.

People here are talking as if self knowledge, noticing my anger in relationship for example, is different than awareness in meditation, which may begin in quiet sitting but certainly moves to all activity all the time.

What is the difference between being aware and not aware? I get angry at my wife. What is the difference between being full on angry versus noticing it as it is happening? In the noticing, there is stopping, yes? For a fraction of a second, I'm out of the anger, there's just watching it. Which is exactly like quiet sitting meditation. I sit quietly and watch the thoughts flow without condemnation, without control. And in the awareness of them, there is momentary stopping, seeing their triviality and a split second of freedom from them.

The split second is gold. It cannot be sought. It cannot be induced. But it is the total difference between awareness, which is freedom from the known, and the never ending indulgence in conflict.

A couple of days ago, two of my friends were arguing about Daylight Savings Time. They were saying the same thing in two different ways. But they couldn't see it. So they went on arguing.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Personally I feel we learn most from observing our actions, feelings, and thoughts in real life relationships.....far more so than by meditation.

Tom, i am not arguing about this. You are right, one learns enormously from the hurly-burly of living. But can not what k was doing with the children simply be seen as an introduction to the process of self awareness? Something that might later be extended, grow, put out tentacles into everyday life?

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
can not what k was doing with the children simply be seen as an introduction to the process of self awareness? Something that might later be extended, grow, put out tentacles into everyday life?

I suppose, however I’m recalling my own youth and my friends and myself would have rejected this outright I think. Our minds were so full of desires and fantasies of success in sports....or plans for weekend fun...movies, music, jokes we heard on TV...what we want to do after class for fun...bike riding...swimming ...later, thoughts of the girls in class. But just watching....yes, I suppose it’s possible that might take hold in a few....a few who were more serious and not raging with desires and fantasies and full of the desire for constant entertainment and fun. Growing up in the US, everything was centered around entertainment....not just for kids but adults too....all they talked about in the barber shop was the Yankees or the NY Giants. Of course the big pop and rock stars were constantly playing on the radio everywhere....Elvis, the .beatles and Rolling Stones. Kids were probably too full of desire to even consider anything serious...being quiet? Not likely. But who knows, perhaps a seed would be planted in a few.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But can not what k was doing with the children simply be seen as an introduction to the process of self awareness? Something that might later be extended, grow, put out tentacles into everyday life?

To me it is very sad that Think On These Things is looked at a little dismissively, as being for children. It was the first book I read by K. I was about nineteen or twenty when I read it. And it had more impact on my life than any other book ever has.

Sure, K was addressing children in these talks. But he touches on so many important things for anyone of any age. Some of what's in this book is in no other K book. To me, the very most important books by K are Think On These Things and The First and Last Freedom. For a long time, I only owned those two. But a friend who worked in a bookstore found out that I liked K and gave me more than a dozen other K books. So now I have a long shelf full of them.

What K says in Chapter 5 of Think On These Things is not all that different from what he said to Larry Rosenberg, an adult who specifically asked him how to meditate.

We all know that many people interested in K can be quite cerebral. Some have asked how can K be approached in a more practical, less intellectual, way. Sitting meditation is practical. There's no complication of other people to interact with. No other activities. You set aside all other demands and just 100% sit. You do so for no reason. Just sitting, watching thoughts flow by if they do, or if they quiet down, or if they don't, or whatever. Just dedicated awareness. There may be an occasional noise or something but, for the most part, distractions are your making, your thought pulling attention away. You just watch this. It works on you in ways beyond understanding.

Of course, it moves from sitting to all activity.

K did this. He talked about the importance of meditation.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

You do so for no reason.

Really? Hard to believe that

Just dedicated awareness.

Dedicated to what exactly?

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

I wrote:
You do so for no reason.

And

Tom Paine responded:

Really? Hard to believe

Most everything we do in life is for a reason. What does that mean? It means we are doing something in order to change what is into something else.

Meditation is what is. Which means that it is the opposite of doing something for a reason.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Dedicated to what exactly?

Dedicated only in the sense that other activities are set aside for now.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

You’re being disingenuous idiot? That’s a ridiculous argument.There is a reason someone decides to sit down to meditate. Usually they heard about it from a book and want something from it. Not saying that’s wrong

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #24
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You’re being disingenuous idiot? That’s a ridiculous argument.There is a reason someone decides to sit down to meditate.

I am not being disingenuous. Do most people do meditation for a reason? Very likely. They want to reduce stress, or gain enlightenment, or attract a million dollars, or who knows what. Most people do everything for a reason.

Real meditation is what is. It is not trying to change what is into something else.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Do most people do meditation for a reason? Very likely. They want to reduce stress, or gain enlightenment, or attract a million dollars, or who knows what. Most people do everything for a reason.

Bingo!

Real meditation is what is. It is not trying to change what is into something else.

Therefore one would be enlightened if they did such meditation. Therefore no one does this other than perhaps K.

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #26
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Therefore one would be enlightened if they did such meditation. Therefore no one does this other than perhaps K.

Nonsense. Anyone can sit down and be still and just observe. This has nothing to do with some non-existent, imagined, permanent state of enlightenment.

On the other hand, if you understand enlightenment the real way, moment to moment, and not a permanent attainment, then every single ordinary person in the entire world is enlightened for any split second when they are simply aware. In that moment they are undivided, not in the separation of thought/time.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #27
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Well how can there be self understanding if much of our conditioning remains deeply hidden?

Self-understanding does not lie in remembering or knowing the full content of consciousness - every word, every memory, every painful and pleasant experience, every grudge, every hope, and so on. Self-understanding lies in understanding the processes of the brain which create the contradictions of the separate self, which follows its own and others’ authority, which pretends it is not afraid when in fact it IS afraid, which craves admiration, which is brutal or deliberately kind, and so on. If the brain is attentive - observes without naming - it actually sees the fear (anger anxiety etc.) which arises from consciousness, it can observe its own pretense, it can observe itself trying to move away from fear (anger etc.) to intellectual occupations which are distractions from the fear etc. This is what self understanding is to me.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

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Tom Paine wrote:

Therefore one would be enlightened if they did such meditation. Therefore no one does this other than perhaps K.
Nonsense. Anyone can sit down and be still and just observe.

Really? Just observe? I think you’re imagination is running wild, id . Or you’re simply deceiving yourself. Who actually does that? They may sit still but their mind is terribly active. If they’re honest. Let’s be honest here...not idealists

Let it Be

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #29
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1490 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
On the other hand, if you understand enlightenment the real way, moment to moment, and not a permanent attainment, then every single ordinary person in the entire world is enlightened for any split second when they are simply aware.

Aren't you conflating 'enlightenment' with 'awareness'? Enlightenment at least has to be the ending of the 'self' image, doesn't it? The so called "stepping out of the stream"? A "radical revolution" in the brain? A "mutation of the brain cells"? The ending of fear and conflict, etc.? That "vast emptiness"?

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #30
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There’s no relationship sitting quietly in my room....only the relationship with my own thoughts and feelings....but very different than when the rubber meets the road out in the ‘real world’, I think

What IS the nature of my relationship with my own thoughts and feelings, sitting quietly in my room? Is it the relationship of the “separate” observer justifying, analyzing, giving significance, passing judgment on “his” thoughts and feelings ... in doing so, it is blocking out or excluding the whole, it is giving importance to itself and nothing else?

Or is it the relationship of the brain dispassionately observing the whole of the moment - including itself, its movements, its thoughts and emotions - without commenting on what it observes (or observing also any "comments" which do arise), without differentiating between all that it sees. This is the relationship of the brain to the whole, without exclusion.

These are 2 radically different kinds of relationship, aren’t they?

Isn’t it the same action of meditation whether I sit (or stand or walk) quietly and simply observe what arises, or whether I am “out in the world”, in conflict, in time, and observe what arises?

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