Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the true function of the brain?


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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #121
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

I've searched online quite a bit for "mutation" and almost always K is talking about a movement outside of time. He excludes time as a factor, because time is thought, the past. In your quote, K says, "The brain is the result of time. Now this man at a point breaks the movement." So mutation is not a permanency or a time bound process or result.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #122
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

K: Of course. I said, whatever you do. Before, I made efforts, I said, I mustn't be selfish, I must devote my life to god, or I must serve others, or I must help others. I said, no, I must retire from this monstrous world and go into a monastery. And I said to myself, I must take drugs - I have never taken drugs - I must take drugs, I must take drink, I must do this, I must do that. Always action within that stream. And you come along and say, 'Look what you are doing, don't be silly, don't be an ass, look what you are doing'. What you are doing is still playing in the stream. Whatever you do - become a Catholic, go to Japan to learn Zen, etc., etc., you are still within this enormous stream which thought has built, or which thought as time and movement has created. Do I see it? Or am I still talking about words? If I see it then what is it, what takes place? If I see the totality of that movement - politically, religiously, economically, socially, ethically, morally, the tyranny - you follow? - political tyranny, there has been the tyranny of the priests, the tyranny of gods, the tyranny of books (laughs), everything is in that stream. Do I see that, be totally aware of it? If I see the totality of it, the brain then has a great shock, and therefore in that very shock there is a transformation of the cells, which then is out of the stream. If I don't see it I can go on discussing endlessly about this.

Then if the brain cells have shaken themselves away from the tradition and are free, then how does such a brain act in the world of reality? Now have you seen this, shall we move from there? (Sound of train) There's another train, thank god. So how shall I - I happen to be out of that stream, there is no 'I' - and that is the main thing. There is no centre as the 'me' that steps out of the stream. When the 'me' steps out of the stream the 'me' is still the stream. If I see the truth of that and therefore the brain accepts the truth, then what shall I do, I as a human being, not I, as a human being what shall he do politically? Right? Let's begin politically. What shall he do?

Q: Care about the others.

K: Care about the others. The missionaries said that. (Laughter) They went to Africa with a bible and a gun. Or rather with a bible, and later on came the gun, and later on the business man.

Q: What is the point if you step out of yourself?

K: How extraordinary. There is no yourself to step out of. You are part of that stream. You don't see that. Wait a minute. I must go on.

What shall a human being do who really has seen the truth of this stream, and therefore the brain cells have undergone a transformation, and therefore they no longer belong to the old tradition? That's a fact, not just... Either you play with it, or actually live it. Then what happens? What shall he do politically? Wait a minute, careful. Is it political action, religious action, business action, economic action, separate? Or again is it the whole thing? You understand? I wonder if we are meeting each other.

Q: For me it is necessary not to be attached to anything.

K: To the stream?

Q: To anything.

K: We went through that. We went through that the other day. Is attachment love? When you are attached can you love? Silence!

Q: No.

K: Ah, no, no, just words.

Q: If you are attached there is no love.

K: So, fact the face that when you are attached there is no love. Because attachment implies dependency, fear, jealousy, anxiety, a sense of loss and therefore hate the person, all that you call beautiful love. And you say, no, that is not really love, but we go on that way. That is part of the stream. Madame, ecout'ez, either you see the reality, no, don't just accept it. It is so. Then move from there.

Attachment to the country, attachment to an idea, attachment to a conclusion, attachment to a belief, attachment to a principle, are all the same, they still belong to the stream. So I am saying, what shall a man do when he is no longer selfish? How shall he act politically, how shall he act in relationship with each other, man and woman, how shall he act with regard to labour? You follow? What shall he do?

Q: I don't know.

K: That's right, you don't know. Right? So what are you playing with?

Q: (Inaudible)

K: You cannot stop being in the stream?

Q: No! You act as a whole in the instant.

K: Oh, that's just a theory. I am fed up with theories.

Q: It is not a theory.

K: Madame, I am fed up with theories, that has been filling my mind with theories, with speculations, that has been the game of tradition. I said all that is part of suffering. I don't want to play with words, with theories.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: How does she know?

Q: If you step out you act differently.

K: That's just a theory. I am pointing out to you, madame, you are speculating on something which has no value. A man who will step out of it will act differently. That has no meaning, I am still in the stream. I want to find out how to get out!

So I can only remain with the fact that we live in this stream, and we cling to it, we mesmerise ourselves that it is a marvellous stream, that stream is love, attachment and so on. I live in that. And anything beyond that, any hope, is mere speculation. And please, I say to myself, please, don't speculate. I am hungry, don't give me words, the menu of a marvellous dinner. I want to be fed.

Q: (In French)

K: Dites moi en Francais. We depend so much on the physical. Our whole structure and thought and psychology is based on the physical condition.

K: And so the physical becomes extraordinarily important - right? - the physical pleasures, the physical observance, physical comfort, physical satisfaction, physical stimulation and so on, so on, so on. But we don't realise also that thought is a physical phenomenon and a chemical process. So thought is a physical and chemical process as the organism is, so it is not separate. Ah, if you see this then quite a different action takes place between the physical and the psychological. If I see the whole structure: how the physical depends on food, clothes, shelter, and for that security we will do anything, kill anybody, wars. And psychologically, which is the movement of thought in time, is part of the process of the physical as thought, which is chemical. So the whole structure is physical and chemical and that has created that tremendous stream of selfishness. Is one aware of this extraordinary process - how we divide the physical, the psychological, the spiritual, the businessman, the politician, the artist - you follow? - all a movement of the fragmentary process of thought? Is he an artist? As we explained, the word 'art' means to put everything in its right place, where it belongs, that is the meaning of that word. Is the artist creative when he lives a disorderly life? You work it out, sir. Is he a religious man who believes? Is such a believer a religious man? Or is religion something outside the world of reality?

So. Let's stop this morning. We will go on tomorrow morning. The question is: is one totally aware, cognisant, apprehensive - in the word 'apprehendere' which means to hold together - that we live and exist, act in this stream? This stream is the past, this stream is the present, this stream is the future modified through the present. This is our life, this is our reality and we think we can solve politically, economically, socially, all the problems, in the stream. And nobody has succeeded in the stream. The politicians play a game with us, they think - it doesn't matter who it is - that they are going to solve the problem. So are we, you and I, aware of this stream completely, and that whatever movement we make is still within the stream? Sir, see this as a reality, as something true, then you will see how it affects the brain cells. Because the brain won't accept anything which doesn't give it security. It has lived in the traditional world, which is the stream, and has accepted it and says, please, don't disturb me, let me live in that stream, with the followers, with the gurus, the whole business. And you come along and tell me, nothing whatever you do in that stream is going to free man from his misery.

Q: Is that true? Is that a fact?

K: Is that a fact. Are the politicians doing something to save you and me from sorrow? Are the priests doing anything, is anybody doing anything outside the stream or within the stream?

Q: You say in order to step out of the stream you have to live an ordinary life.

K: I did not say that. (Laughs) No, madame. Juste! I have explained everything, madame. Listen, look. I have to live in the world of reality - food, clothes, shelter, money, I have to live there.

Q: That is a compromise. That's the first compromise.

K: I am not, sir, I am not compromising anything.

Q: You don't have to, you have explained it to her.

K: I am explaining to her, sir. Most human beings live in that field of reality. And the problems are getting more and more complex, and they have not been able to solve them, they are getting worse and worse.

Q: But don't you admit this is change different from one thing to other?

K: No, madame, I explained all that. Look, please. What is a human being to do, confronted with all these facts, that the politicians, whoever they are, are not going to solve the problems, they pretend. The religious people are not going to solve this problem of human suffering, human selfishness. Nor the analysts, nor the psychologists, not the philosophers - they have all tried for centuries. And besides, why should I accept them as my authority? They might be as foolish as I am - why should I accept them, as cunning, deceitful as I am. So I say to myself, they cannot solve this problem. So who will solve this problem? God? - god is an invention of thought, whether it is a Christian god, or Hindu god, or the Muslim god. So I say to myself, thought is in action all the time, thought has created this world in which I live, the world of nationalities, wars, brutality. Thought has done all this, and my mind is caught in that stream of thought. And whatever thought does in that stream will pollute further the stream. That is the thing I have to be shocked into. Then the brain operates differently. Right sir, tomorrow morning.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #123
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti, Public Talk 4 Saanen, Switzerland - 19 July 1964:
To bring about this mutation - not `bring about', those are the wrong words. There must be a mutation, and this mutation must take place now. If you introduce time as a factor in mutation, then time creates the problem. There is no tomorrow, there is no time at all for me to change in - time being thought. It is now or never. Do you understand?

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #124
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine quoted K:
Then the brain operates differently.

Does K say this different operation of the brain is permanent, lasting, continuous? No. To do so is to bring in the time factor that is thought. No, this altogether different operation is moment to moment.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #125
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Yet k said time and again that the brain is changed. The mutation takes place now, he is saying in your excerpt...but the mutation doesn’t need to be continually gone through, over and over again. The brain cells themselves are changed. There are new insights...in the present...now. But the brain is changed permanently by them again and again, with each new insight. Otherwise what’s the point of K asking if we can be free of violence?

Let it Be

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #126
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Does K say this different operation of the brain is permanent, lasting, continuous? No. To do so is to bring in the time factor that is thought. No, this altogether different operation is moment to moment.

He said time and time again that the brain cells themselves are changed. A mutation goes in one direction right? They don’t mutate and the next moment mutate back to their previous state. That would be absurd. The change takes place in the now moment, yes, and then the change is permanent. Insight into the falseness of ideals is permanent though the insight itself happens in the now...beyond time. Sorry to bombard you with this id....it’s quite possible I’m full of ‘you know what’. Hopefully others will join in here.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #127
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There are new insights...in the present...now. But the brain is changed permanently by them again and again, with each new insight. But the brain is changed permanently by them again and again, with each new insight.

I don't see anywhere where K says that the brain is changed permanently. On the contrary, in post #116 I provided a quote where he goes into this very carefully: "What has no continuity is neither permanent nor impermanent. Permanency or continuity comes into being only when there’s fear of transiency."

Tom Paine wrote:
Otherwise what’s the point of K asking if we can be free of violence?

The point is to meet every moment anew with complete awareness.

Anyway, for sure I personally haven't arrived at a permanent mutation. I don't take it on faith that one exists. To me K does not say there is a permanent mutation. He says there is a mutation outside of the time factor.

Maybe we should go back and re-read some of what we have posted because there's a lot, and we should let it sink in. Perhaps neither of us will be convinced by the other but at least we can look at the question again.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #128
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
The point is to meet every moment anew with complete awareness.

That’s ONE point, yes, and is a valid one. I still maintain that the mutation goes in one direction only. It doesn’t suddenly reverse itself. But I’m open to input from other members here.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #129
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1489 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
The point is to meet every moment anew with complete awareness.

Yes but 'we' can't do that, can we? As long as there is the duality of observer/observed, thinker/thought, there can't be a "complete" anything. The "point" is to have a spontaneous relationship with the world and that can't happen as long as everything is being seen through the eyes of the past, the 'self'. So back to meeting our 'escapes', how we get around seeing what we really are. We have been conditioned it seems, to not be able to do that. Only in a "crisis" situation as Tom put it. Maybe he would expand on that without getting too personal?

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #130
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If his brain cells were different why didn't he have a neurologist verify that, either when he was alive or just after he died?

I can't help laughing at that idea! But actually I don't think science even now has the tools to do that. And even if it could, what effect would that have? Would more people be 'encouraged' to enquiry into themselves? In the hope of a similar reward?

But I do find the question "was K a freak" (ie one of a kind) interesting. He himself denied it (eg in the Ending of Time) - he said 'it would have no meaning if he was'. But to me that proves nothing. if one looks at the issue dispassionately, one is perhaps drawn to the conclusion he WAS a freak. The implication being, it doesn't apply to anyone else. Yet at other times he said he could not discover WHAT he was. There seemed to be a block on his finding out.

And then there was the mystical side of him, not revealed in his talks.

For me, the only safe place to start one's enquiries is to assume that one knows nothing, absolutely nothing. As you yourself said, Id, on the thread that you started, we can assume nothing, rely on no one, even K. This I think is the true religious state.

I read the quote, thanks. Although he probably usually lived in the moment, was K not "permanently" transformed? Most of his life?

And yet I remember these words of his:

Deteroration is always just one step behind. Even for me.

I think I understand this. The moment insight is turned into knowledge by thought, deterioration has set in.

Id, an aside. Have you checked your private message box lately?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Mon, 04 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #131
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When (if) that falsity is seen as clearly as that of 'ceremonies' and 'class distinction', nationalism, etc. why would it not dissolve as well?

I don't know. Good question. After all, it IS seen, over and over, throughout the day. Or am I kidding myself that it is seen? It seems to be seen, and the seeing seems to have some effect, some action on the thought process. Let us say it introduces doubt, it disrupts the usual patterns and assumptions. And yet the movement of thinker/thought, the duality, carries on.

Perhaps with a little more space between thoughts.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #132
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Maybe we should go back and re-read some of what we have posted because there's a lot, and we should let it sink in. Perhaps neither of us will be convinced by the other but at least we can look at the question again

From my perspective, I don't actually see a contradiction between your two "positions", if I can use that word.

I would have to say there has been some sort of pernmanent change in me, in my life (not completely) and the effects of this are with me everyday. Yet there is absolutely no sense of me 'sitting back' and saying "I've got it". All the time the mind is questioning, doubting, rejecting, denying. It is dying all the time, and in that sense there is absolutely no sense of anything permanent. Yet this state, this altered state, is really there 'all the time'. I am simplifying here.

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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 #133
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Of course and if the thinker is seen to be thought itself, there will be no 'going back' to that false duality...because there will be 'no-one' to go back!

That is a good point, Dan. And yet as has been said, there is a continual 'going back' - I mean the movement of duality keeps starting up ..... and its falseness keeps being seen through.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #134
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I would have to say there has been some sort of pernmanent change in me, in my life (not completely) and the effects of this are with me everyday.

This is what I’ve been trying to point out to id? Of course people change. If I’m a devout Christian, and I read K and have insight into the falseness of all organized religious beliefs , I don’t go back....revert to my former beliefs. Insight brings some kind of permanent change....in the brain...like learning. If I get insight into a problem in math or physics it stays with me. I don’t have to learn that all over again. So to use your phrase, Clive, the effects of the insight are with me every day.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 #135
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

One more on the deep, radical transformation K often spoke of...a mutation that I feel is not reversible. One doesn’t change fundamentally and then return to ignorance. But I may be mistaken.

“A bit nervous. What shall we talk about this morning? I would like to talk over together with you, if I may, the very serious problem of how to bring about deep transformation of man, of a human being. That's what I would like to discuss, talk over and share together. If it is at all possible for man, a human being, who represents the whole of the world - every human being is the whole of the world - can that human entity undergo a deep, radical transformation; not superficial changes, not move from one cage to another, or one system to another, one guru to another, or one belief to another, but deep transformation which implies freedom totally from all belief, from all ideals, from all contradictions in our actions in our daily life. And can this be done without any effort, without the battle of the opposites?” Brockwood Park, 1976

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 05 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #136
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
This is what I’ve been trying to point out to id?

But I did add that this doesn't lead to any sense of permanency. Absolutely the reverse, in fact!

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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 #137
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But I did add that this doesn't lead to any sense of permanency. Absolutely the reverse, in fact!

I understand, but you do feel that insight changes the brain, right? And perhaps the kind of ‘total insight’ K spoke about changes the brain totally....or brings a mutation in the brain, which is what K maintained? Perhaps it’s not an important point. I know that one time in the past I had an insight into something or other and felt quite certain there had been some kind of mutation in the brain. It was a very distinct feeling...a certainty that something in the brain had changed. I don’t have a clue about it now other than remembering that certainly that the brain changed. This isn’t an ego trip..I have no self image about having a mutated brain or anything like that.

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