Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Investigate For Yourself!


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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #1
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

"Investigate for yourself."

I love that statement! Is it amazingly great or what!

Lots of traditions tell you what to think. K says, go into it, investigate for yourself.

No one can eat food for you. No one can go to the bathroom for you. No one can carry your body around for you. And no one can really, really investigate for you. Only you can do that.

You need absolute freedom from spiritual authority to investigate for yourself. However, sometimes we take K as a spiritual authority, we take his word for something, and we don't look thoroughly into it for ourselves. That dishonors both K and ourselves.

It's up to us to see what is true and what is false. To see the true in the true, the true in the false, the false in the true, and the false in the false. Is something missing? Included?

But there is a danger. Sometimes it is pointed out by people who believe in spiritual teachers. The danger is that you can get some kind of whacky idea and hold on to it. And if you are very isolated, stubborn in your own separate understanding, you might not let go of something mistaken, confused, hurtful, deluded.

Let's say I believe in the Ouija board, which is ridiculous because no one really believes in the Ouija board. But let's say I do. I've looked into it for myself and it really seems to bring messages across from the other side. People tell me that's crazy. They say that it doesn't move unless there's a hand or two or three on it. So obviously it is moved by those touching it, either deliberately or unconsciously. But I say no. There really are messages coming through. I've looked into it for myself.

This is a danger. But reality is banging up against the false belief. If I am careful and open to not holding on, I may see what's up and let go of my false belief. And above all, although I am investigating for myself, I don't live in isolation. I live in relationship.

Can we help each other? In dialog, can we rub against each other and polish each other? Can we talk things over in a friendly way and look into things together? Hopefully. However, in practice we can hold on to something and may not realize we are doing so.

It's pretty easy to look at someone else and think they are holding on to a mistaken idea. Of course, my judgment that someone is mistaken can be mistaken itself. I'm judging someone else and that is mistaken right there. But it is very hard to see my own attachments, misunderstandings. I have to watch conflict very closely and really look at my own sticking points.

Especially when it comes to thought naturally quieting down to still silence, no one can do that for you. You may not be able to do that for you. But only you can investigate it. No one else can for you.

Can we discuss "Investigate for yourself?" Is it important? Are there any limitations or problems with it?

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
"Investigate for yourself."

Good to see someone else starting a thread!

What you say seems true to me, Id. And clearly the greatest danger for us in this group, as you say, is to treat K as a spiritual authority – exactly at the same time that we are saying that we are not, or telling other people not to do that! Only choiceless awareness can reveal whether we are doing that or not, no?

K describes the mechanism of desire and fear, he points out the nature of the self, he testifies to the great sorrow of the world, and so on. And these things seem true. I venture to say that they ARE true. But they are not a LIVING truth in myself, unless I investigate for myself, are they? Merely to listen to K’s words, to ‘accept them’ as true, has no impact on us, does it? So yes, we have to investigate for ourselves, as you say. And it seems to me the greatest obstacle to that investigation is what we already ‘know’ . That is, the conclusions which we have drawn, the things that we have accepted.

Am I merely writing now from that knowledge? If so, it seems a dead, barren, process. There is a tremendous feeling of being alive, vital, when one is actually discovering for oneself, isn’t there?

However, it would be foolish to deny that all of us have been influenced by K’s words. No, I don’t like the word “influence”, “touched”, “affected”, “impacted” would be better words. We might go into the nature of this touch.

can we help each other?

This is a significant part of the what you are pointing out, the questions that you are asking. We have to investigate for ourselves, so what part do others play in this investigation? Do they play any part? Sometimes when investigating with a friend who is equally enquiring, it seems there is a tremendous energy generated, and my own enquiry is enhanced.

in practice we can hold on to something and may not realise that we are doing so.

So it is up to us to question each other, and perhaps point out if we feel the other is holding on to something. Of course it may be ME who is doing the holding on! I feel the atmosphere of this forum is such that we can do that questioning of each other. And that seems a valuable thing. I do get the impression that we all actually want to be questioned, to have our statements doubted.

I will finish with a final question. Just what does it mean, “to investigate”?

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #3
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
The danger is that you can get some kind of whacky idea and hold on to it.

Or you can get some perfectly sensible idea and hold on to it. You can make some observation, have some insight, that seems perfectly true as a description of reality. So the mind “holds on to it”, tries to apply it, screens subsequent observations through it. But “it” is now a conclusion, an idea, it is not longer the clear insight that it was. It has been assimilated into thought.

What goes wrong? Is it that the mind is in a state of constant flux? It is not a fixed, static thing, and so cannot be captured by verbal descriptions – descriptions ARE static, aren’t they?

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Merely to listen to K’s words, to ‘accept them’ as true, has no impact on us, does it?

If you have a brain that is conditioned totally, and into that brain someone with a possibly unconditioned brain is pointing out that total conditioning to you, you will hear it through your conditioning but some of those words like 'seeds' may settle into places where the 'crows' can not get at them...they may germinate over time and bring forth an awareness of the truth of what was being pointed out...and then the 'investigation' will be to see the 'nature' of this conditioning?

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #5
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
K describes the mechanism of desire and fear, he points out the nature of the self... But they are not a LIVING truth in myself, unless I investigate for myself, are they?

Yes. I have listened to K discussing desire. Then I look at myself. What do I desire? Have I created an image of what I desire? Is there a sensation? Okay, maybe I've let go of some material desires and live pretty simply. How about health? Do I desire a level of health continuing? Which means fear, in this case fear of sickness or aging, getting close to dying. So I may desire or fear change. I can watch the process. I can feel the tension of it. I can see and feel the pull of these away from reality, away from what is right now. They are a reality I'm creating but they are covering over the splendor all around this moment, the vitality. The more crystal clear it is seen, the more it may drop away. Not that I try to drop it. But totally seeing it, and it may be a little thing, it may drop.

And the self is a biggie. I feel a sense of self, of enclosure, or separation. To investigate is to really look and not just think it through theoretically. In my life, what is the feeling of self? How do I know what is me and not me? How does my ownership, my separateness keep me apart from people around me, even people I supposedly love? Thought separates, divides. How is mine doing that? How am I walling off me and not me? Everything seems so completely soaked with self. Can I even make a sentence about investigating self that doesn't have the word "I?" Who's the investigator? Obviously, no other than the investigated. What does that mean? The looker is the looked at? It's like a cliff, a step off into free fall.

"The observer is the observed." If we understand this statement, we have translated it into an idea. But if we don't understand it, and we don't look away, we go really deeply into it, then it's like a can-opener for the "I." It's the brink.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 22 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #6
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Offline

The 'self' as beautiful or ugly as it might be, is a form of 'resistance' isn't it? Resistance to what? To 'Love', I'd say, which may become clear...There is only one 'I' and that is Love. There is no division in Love... and the self will dissolve in it like a cloud in sunshine. Thought holds on to the fortress it has built because it fears being vulnerable. It fears being 'nothing'... but it is. Yet being 'nothing' is the ultimate 'security' because in nothingness, in Love, there is no resistance to anything.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yet being 'nothing' is the ultimate 'security' because in nothingness, in Love, there is no resistance to anything.

Yes. But as long as my brain is whirling with thought, busy busy busy separating this from that, then love is only a remote idea.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #8
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
love is only a remote idea.

Love is not an idea. The "idea" of Love is an idea.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Love is not an idea. The "idea" of Love is an idea.

Of course. That's what I'm saying. As long as the brain is busy with thought, love is an idea rather than a reality, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 22 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #10
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
As long as the brain is busy with thought, love is an idea rather than a reality, yes?

I think K. put it that "where the Self is the Other (Love?) is not."?

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #11
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But “it” is now a conclusion, an idea, it is not longer the clear insight that it was. It has been assimilated into thought.

Yes. So true. We read or listen to K and there is an epiphany. But we soon freeze the aha! into an idea, a K teaching that we store away and bring out when when we think it's appropriate.

This is why the core, the clear silent mind, is so important. We can certainly store away ideas about it. But we can't store IT away. The unknown, the innocent stillness present awareness cannot be stored away. Nor can methods to get to it that have any validity. The descriptive words can be stored away but they aren't it.

Maybe we get a glimpse, we see a bird cut through the sky and afterwards realize that the self was gone in that moment of seeing. But then we freeze the experience into memory and cherish our little experience. It's then dead, a past memory, its only purpose to boost our ego into thinking we've seen something.

So it's really important to look at K conditioning, yes? K told me all these amazing things, I stored them all away in my head, all these little rules, and I think that they make life better, fuller. But if there's not attention right now, discovery right now, it's just decomposing stench, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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