Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

On the significance of meeting with one another


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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #1
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 265 posts in this forum Offline

For as long as life is lived from a self, which is an experience of separation put together by thought, everything that this separate entity does, all its actions, cannot but carry and spread division.

Because of its divisive nature, the self can only be engaged in a relationship where the other is experienced to be separate from it, and the relationship then also separate from some other relationship and so forth, as division extends itself. That is the case when images are relating in their own fragmentation.

Without this separation, what is relationship?

Who is there to meet with whom?

The meeting beyond the separation created by thought and image, is a shared discovery of there being no separate entities to relate.

It is the discovery of oneness in and through relationship.

This is something completely different from two self images getting together to experience a false sense of unity that is based on identifying with the same opinions and ideas.

So, instead of separate ideas of 'me', 'you', and 'our relationship', there is only the action of relating in this meeting.

That happens when two people stay in the moment only, discovering timelessness together. This moment is always there, beyond thought and time.

It is of immeasurable significance that people come together to meet in this energy in which they are one.

It changes the world of fragmentation into the world of oneness, not by exchanging one with the other, but by discovering that only the One is real.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #2
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1490 posts in this forum Online

Mina Martini wrote:
It is of immeasurable significance that people come together to meet in this energy in which they are one.

Perhaps Mina there is a "micro-culture' of people around the world that are seeing this?

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Sun, 22 Sep 2019 #3
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 265 posts in this forum Offline

m:>It is of immeasurable significance that people come together to meet in this energy in which they are one.

dan:>Perhaps Mina there is a "micro-culture' of people around the world that are seeing this?

m: These people are you and me, there is no other.

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Sun, 22 Sep 2019 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1490 posts in this forum Online

We've been conditioned to avoid psychological discomfort and to seek psychological comfort. That seems reasonable on one level, but it is a trap isn't it? They both involve 'attachment'. The 'discomfort' when what we value appears to be threatened and the comfort when no such threat exists. But when there is no holding on to anything, there is nothing to take comfort in or nothing to be discomforted by.
And that which was moving between those two opposites no longer operates. I think this is what was being pointed at in the saying " Man hath not where to lay his head"?

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Mon, 23 Sep 2019 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
That happens when two people stay in the moment only, discovering timelessness together. This moment is always there, beyond thought and time.

So where or what is the key to this? The entrance? Can one deliberately "stay in the moment"? Surely not. Anything deliberate is the action of the separative self, is it not?

Looking at this movement, one sees that all action of the self IS separative, as you say. This must be seen, felt intensely, not merely described (not saying that you are doing that, Mina). Any description (except for the purpose of simple communication) is an avoidance of feeling intensely, isn't it?

So can one observe the movement of the self without any escape (which is the movement of the self?, without the escape of verbalization? And is such observation in itself "being in the moment"?

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Mon, 23 Sep 2019 #6
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 747 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
So can one observe the movement of the self without any escape.....?

Such observation or attention IS the key to self-understanding, isn't it, Clive. Without such understanding, the separative self and its misery are necessarily maintained.

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Mon, 23 Sep 2019 #7
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1490 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
And is such observation in itself "being in the moment"?

There is only THE moment (this moment) isn't there? What is 'going on'. The 'what is', etc. Now THE moment also includes whatever the 'self/thought' is doing in THE moment. But thought's 'moment' differs from THE moment in that it can create an illusion of 'time' by projecting partial images from the 'past', the 'present', or imagining an illusory 'future'. And these projections include the activity of the illusory 'thinker'. This all takes place mechanically. But all of it takes place in the only 'place' there is: THE moment. As long as psychological thought is active, a false 'in the moment' (time) is created by thought/thinker. Thought must realize that the thinker is not separate from itself. That, I'd say is "key". That realized, thought/time can cease to be active psychologically and function only in practical matters. Being the 'past', thought can never be in THE moment which is always the timeless NOW. Understanding how this works, as it works, seems the only way that thought can become aware of itself, this thinker/thought split, and bring an end to it.

This is important because without the 'thinker' there is no 'me' to suffer.

Don't know how much sense that all makes.

From QOTD:

K. "If he (the thinker) is separate, problems will continue, if he is not, then he can be freed of the source of all problems."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 24 Sep 2019.

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Mon, 23 Sep 2019 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2812 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

So can one observe the movement of the self without any escape.....?
Such observation or attention IS the key to self-understanding, isn't it, Clive. Without such understanding, the separative self and its misery are necessarily maintained.

I guess we’ve been down this road many times here in the past yet the movement to escape or avoid may continue. One condemns or justifies or tries to change what one is. Apparently this movement of judging and condemning is so powerful that it’s happening already before we’re even aware of it. Then once we’re aware of it we condemn THAT. So it seems that any effort at all psychologically involves this fragmentation....me vs. not me(the fragment I don’t like). Then we probably will ask, how can I be free of this movement...free of effort? Possibly Dan has given us the key....by realizing that both of the opposing fragments are me...both are thought. I need to look more closely at this....at work at the moment.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 23 Sep 2019.

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Tue, 24 Sep 2019 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Don't know how much sense that all makes.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to me.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Understanding how this works, as it works, seems the only way that thought can become aware of itself, this thinker/thought split, and bring an end to it.

Yes, that does seem "the key"

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Tue, 24 Sep 2019 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

But one thing is certain, as you say, the self cannot possibly be in real relationship. Although it may think that it can.

And yet the world desperately needs true relationship between people - I mean this absence of separation.

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