Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What is this Life?


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Fri, 13 Sep 2019 #61
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Who am I to resist?". that is an actual question. What is it that resists life's nudgings? And why does it? Feeling that it is the self's overwheming desire for security, for certainty.

Nudgings or smacks in the head? K talked of starvation...misery. What resists? Fear....thought says, ‘this should not be happening’...the war, illness, injury, etc. ‘Desire for certainty’ ...or desire for survival? Fear of death or physical suffering is what makes us resist, isn’t it?

Let it Be

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Fri, 13 Sep 2019 #62
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
We create a reality from thought. Then we proceed to live according to that reality. Instead of "create a reality" one could say "draw a conclusion"

Realities like "she loves me", "she doesn't love me", "I will meditate twice a day", "I am a capable person", "my friend decieved me so I won't be his friend anymore, I will be another perosn's friend", "I like this music", ...... and so on.

We follow the reality, live this reality, until for some reason it becomes untenable. And then? - do we see the folly of creating reality from thought? - no, we select another reality to follow.

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Fri, 13 Sep 2019 #63
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Nudgings or smacks in the head? K talked of starvation...misery.

On occasions, looking back, I have even felt that life has deliberately deceived me - in order to put me in situations that I would not normally choose, because of fear, indolence, etc. I have been attracted to some life-situation that seemed to promise what I thought I wanted, only to discover the situation was not what I had thought at all, or the circumstances rapidly changed - so I was in a situation I never would have chosen for myself, yet a situation that presented me with both the learning that I needed, and setting in motion a new, totally unexpected, chain of events.

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Fri, 13 Sep 2019 #64
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You may think I’m nit picking

Not at all. Sure there are all the fears you mention, the practical ones and the psychological ones...what I saw was, that the fear beneath all of that is the 'loss of self'. The loss of 'me'. The 'me' has attached itself to the things in the world and a sense of 'individuality'comes with those attachments or connections, knowledge, experience, etc. It's what we call living, our lives...but with the death of the body this all gets simply 'swept away'. And that sweeping away or 'ending' is what we fear about dying, we'll be 'gone'. K has said that what we 'really' are is "nothing (not-a-thing). Ponder that. We're nothing. Maybe you will come to this 'insight'(?) that this 'nothing' or this 'all' are just other words for 'Love', Compassion, Intelligence, Wisdom, etc. 'No-things'. And the 'self', what K calls the "me and mine', is really just the 'resistance' to this 'Other', because as I see it, I fear being subsumed in it as I fear disappearing in death, I want to 'keep' my individuality, I fear I would be 'naked' in this world without it, I can't imagine being 'without' it.....but what can disappear if what we actually are is 'nothing'? Only the falseness and fear of this 'self'. And Love (or whatever word you want to use for the unknown, the 'Other') can only be when the 'self' is not... according to K...but it is for us to find out. That is how I am seeing this.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 14 Sep 2019.

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #65
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K has said that what we 'really' are is "nothing (not-a-thing). Ponder that. We're nothing. Maybe you will come to this 'insight'(?) that this 'nothing' or this 'all' are just other words for 'Love', Compassion, Intelligence, Wisdom, etc. 'No-things'.

So we don't fear being nothing actually, we fear our idea of nothing...which is something. What we fear most, probably, is losing all we are attached to...our memories. So our fear of death is that. We will lose our loved one...really our memories of our loved ones....since in reality they are not who we 'think'(!) they are.

Let it Be

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #66
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
.since in reality they are not who we 'think'(!) they are.

Since in reality, we are not who we think we are!

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #67
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

.since in reality they are not who we 'think'(!) they are.

Since in reality, we are not who we think we are!

True enough. The self image is as false as my image of you ...or of the tree. In a practical sense the images are useful of course. If I have a dental appointment I need to know my name and phone number, etc...who I am in a practical sense.

Let it Be

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #68
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
In a practical sense the images are useful of course.

What would it mean to have no self-image (ego) in the psychologic sense?

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #69
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2900 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

In a practical sense the images are useful of course.

What would it mean to have no self-image (ego) in the psychologic sense?

What would it mean to see the falseness of ALL images psychologically? One would then be open to life, no? To the moment? What do you say?

Let it Be

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #70
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What would it mean to see the falseness of ALL images psychologically? One would then be open to life, no? To the moment? What do you say?

Let's see...without an image of myself, there would be nothing to 'defend' so nothing to get 'hurt'. No-one to be insulted or flattered. There would be no taking anything 'personally'. And without an image of myself, there would be nothing that could become attached to anyone or anything psychologically, which is not to say that one couldn't have friendships, companions, material things, etc. but there would be no 'self-pity' over losing them, and no reason to have more than I need. And a big thing would be that there could be no painful, destructive jealousy because without a self-image, there could be no sense of psychological 'possession', (the 'mine') which now masquerades as 'love' and 'caring'.... What do you or anyone say?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 14 Sep 2019.

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Sat, 14 Sep 2019 #71
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What do you or anyone say?

Without images of oneself or others, all this "known" stuff come to an end. And then one enters into the beauty, the mystery, the vulnerability, the depth of living with the unknown.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #72
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

A vivid image came to me while talking with a friend yesterday. Of a lighthouse being battered by huge waves in a storm. A lighthouse with no light, just a tower of stone.

The lighthouse, apparently standing tall and firm, represents an image the mind forms. An image of what is supposed to be true, what is ‘permanent’, something that is known, something one is confident about. A base from which one can understand the world and oneself.. Something that stands against the flow of thought, with its contradictions and uncertainties. A belief one holds, that is beyond question. An ideology that one completely identifies with.

And as soon as thought creates such an edifice – and what else would it be that does such creating except thought? - it is an invitation for life to start the battering of the waves, isn’t it? Doubt will come, which must be pushed aside. Problems form, as the edifice must be defended. The various vicissitudes of life start to gather, which have to be somehow resisted, overcome.

The more the “permanent structure” is strengthened, the stronger the forces become to break it down. It is as if the pretence of permanency is an affront to life itself, and life has no choice but to shatter it.

Is this because life is really a movement, constant flow? There is really no space in this flow for rigidity, for fixity. And in this world, only the mind is rigid, or tries to be. But the more we desire permanency, the more it is denied.

I cannot “be” anything. This is the essential contradiction of thought, of the thinker, of the image-making process. To be is to be static, and life will have no truck with such a pretence.

The battering waves are intrinsic to the lighthouse. They are one, they cannot be separated. To build the lighthouse is also to create the waves. And if there is no lighthouse, no rigid structure – then there are no battering waves. Only the flow of what is, with no resistance.

“What is defended must be attacked”.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #73
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
To be is to be static, and life will have no truck with such a pretense.

But the 'self' has found a way to persist. To live and to die in this illusion of individuality. Don't underestimate it. It has survived for a very long time.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #74
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But the 'self' has found a way to persist.

But it has only done so by being in contradiction to life itself, wouldn't you say?

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #75
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

I think that you deleted a post that you had made, Dan. Unless I was dreaming, which is possible.

Am I giving the impression of being a messenger from life? :-). If so, I am back in the arms of unknowing. And asking just what is “life”, and what is “my” relationship to it? While realising these may be entirely wrong questions. If not wrong, I doubt if thought can answer the questions.

Am I separate from life? I appear to be, the self appears to be. Yet how could that be possible?

From interest in the questions, I turn to K via google search, and find:

The world at present is the expression of life in bondage

This is from the 1928 book “Life the Goal”. As I see it, we have replaced life as the goal itself with innumerable mind-created goals, and occupy ourselves with those.

Does this mean only when the mind is not occupied with anything at all is it realised that life itself is he goal?

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #76
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
If so, I am back in the arms of unknowing. And asking just what is “life”, and what is “my” relationship to it? While realising these may be entirely wrong questions. If not wrong, I doubt if thought can answer the questions.

We may be ,in this strange life Clive, serving a function that we can not imagine...because it is unimaginable. Something beyond our imagination. If that is so then the only possibility for us is to "be as nothing". Anything more than 'nothing' means to be continually trapped in the web of our own making. Which ever way we move, we entrap ourselves. But as 'nothing', the entrapment and the entanglement can end.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 20 Sep 2019.

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #77
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We may be ,in this strange life Clive, serving a function that we can not imagine...

Yes, I would go along with that, Dan. At least as a possibility.

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #78
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 857 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Does this mean only when the mind is not occupied with anything at all is it realised that life itself is he goal?

Hi Clive and Dan,

Dr. PARCHURE who looked after K.'s health appeared to have written a - I've trouble to describe it - a kind of self-inquiry about his live and is using K'texts as his "Voice of Wisdom" .

Sadley IT'S not published but a joy to read.

About the subject you 're writing there is a Quote from K. 'Star Buletin febr 1930.'

"You exist in order that as an individual you may develop.
This is the only reason for which life exists for which you as an individual are in this world. Desire is constantly seeking outlet, is constantly striving against limitation. Desire can only fulfill itself in experience, can grow only through experience. Experience is the only thing that will make you, the individual, grow to great heights. What is it that you are continually seeking through experience? Desire is seeking freedom from limitations. Desire is life energy and that life which is in you is struggling to break down barriers. Through ceaseless efort comes cessation of efort. The self(the you and the 'I') through experience is seeking completeness and to arrive at that it must pass through incompleteness with a purpose."

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 20 Sep 2019.

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #79
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1578 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Dr. P. " Desire is life energy and that life which is in you is struggling to break down barriers".

The "barriers" are perhaps, the whole 'complex' that includes the elusive 'me', 'you' or 'self'. All the experiences, memories, knowledge, stored away in the brain. They are static, the past, yet have a constant, varying degree of influence in the 'background'. The 'self' or center is what organizes and holds the complex together. It is the controlling 'I' of each waking moment. When K. says what we are is "nothing", I think that he is pointing at the 'nothing' behind, 'apart' from this complex of ourself. At the force behind all life itself. The 'thinker' or 'me' was 'created' by thought to give itself a continuity, who knows why. As 'nothing', there is only 'one-ness' which is frightening to thought (the old brain?) trying to maintain its movement, its sense of individuality, of 'becoming'.. It's seen as 'death'. The 'self' survives by being elusive. It hides. When there is inquiry into itself, it becomes the inquirer. Like the fly that flies up and sits on the fly swatter...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 20 Sep 2019.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #80
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The 'thinker' or 'me' was 'created' by thought to give itself a continuity, who knows why.

Surely thought needed continuity in orderto function, in order to "do its job". Its job being to provide the brain with security?

Without that continuity, security, how could we start to fulfil our purpose, as in:

Wim Opdam wrote:
"You exist in order that as an individual you may develop.

?

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #81
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
About the subject you 're writing there is a Quote from K. 'Star Buletin febr 1930.'

I was just about to post a similar quote. This is from the 1928 book "Life is the Way"

And what is the purpose of life? It is the freedom of life, the liberation of life from all things, the liberation which comes when you have gone through all experiences and are, therefore, beyond all experience. And I want to show you that in order to fulfil life, as I have fulfilled life, you must welcome to your heart every experience, however unpleasant, however delightful, so as to make your life full as the rain-drop. You are afraid of sorrow, thinking it something fearful, something of which you are ashamed. The experience of sorrow gives you strength, strength to sustain you in your struggle, which is also experience. Invite sorrow out of the abundance of your heart, and do not put it aside, for sorrow gives the perfume of understanding, is the creator of affection, and gives you immense sympathy with life. Sorrow and pleasure, evil and righteousness have a meaning if you have established the goal: for the goal gives constantly the aid of its understanding.

The attainment of Truth consists in unfolding life and in giving to life the fullest possible scope for its expression. To me the only goal, the only world which is eternal, which is absolute, is the world of Truth. A man who has seen this vision, even during his strife in the world, has established for himself this eternal goal. Though he may wander among the transient things, though he may lose himself among the shadows, yet all the time his life will be guided by this goal which is the freedom from all desires, from all experiences, from all sorrows, pain and struggle. For the one who desires to discover the eternal, the establishment of that goal is of primary importance; not the goal of another, not the vision of another, not the outcome of the sorrow of another, but the goal that is born of his own experience, his own understanding. Such a goal, when once he has established it, will throw light on the confusion of his thought and thereby make clear his purpose in life. I want to make this in your minds, as it is in mine, the very foundation for all thought and for all feeling.

Surely " for the goal gives constantly the aid of its understanding" means the same as the later "life comes to your aid", which was posted earlier in the thread?

The date of publication was 1928, a year before K renounced "The Order of the Star". The wording at least is obviously different from his later talks. Do his words reflect "Theosophy influence"? Somehow because of the year, I feel a certain scepticism of his meaning, more doubting - which I feel is a good thing. But they are very powerful words indeed, and I feel I want to study them more.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #82
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 857 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Wim Opdam wrote:

Dr. P. " Desire is life energy and that life which is in you is struggling to break down barriers".

To make it absolutely clear, it is not a quote from Dr. P. But from K.

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think that he is pointing at the 'nothing' behind, 'apart' from this complex of ourself. At the force behind all life itself.

To me the text seems to point to the fact that the self is not apart
but a part of the whole and its wrong doing must be overcome by ,
yes it seems a paradox, doing nothing.!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 21 Sep 2019.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #83
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 857 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
The date of publication was 1928, a year before K renounced "The Order of the Star". The wording at least is obviously different from his later talks.

I can't find the text but somewhere I read that he took 2 years to come to this action. And yes his wording in those early years is different, but to me it is not essentially different, rather clarifying.
A lot of the quotes Dr. P. Is using are from those early years.

After K. died he ordered the archives as well in India, Brockwood and Ojai and there he started to collect quotes.

Like Scott Forbes he is also very critical about the stafmembers at that time, even at his countrymembers.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 21 Sep 2019.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #84
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 857 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Do his words reflect "Theosophy influence"? Somehow because of the year, I feel a certain scepticism of his meaning, more doubting - which I feel is a good thing.

Clive, keep also in mind that those early texts are not recorded but written down by a few man/woman from the public and they where coming from, correct yes, the theosophical association!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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