Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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How is it that I am this one?


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Wed, 10 Jul 2019 #1
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

I am assuming that you are another like this one.

Can you ask your self this same question?

I can see that I could have been any other in the present or in any other time past present or future.

Is this a wrong question? If so how is it a wrong question? I am asking.... mustn't one ask this question... free of the known, free of K or any other.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 11 Jul 2019.

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Wed, 10 Jul 2019 #2
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
I am assuming that you are another in a like way.

Can you ask your self this same question?

I can see that I could have been any other in the present or in any other time past present or future.

In essence Peter we could be 'every other' couldn't we?...but to answer that question of "why me and not someone else?", we can only speculate or adopt some belief about 'karma' or form a theory, say. And that may bring the comfort of a false security but is that what we want? I simply don't know... why this 'me', here, now...

Do you?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 10 Jul 2019.

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Wed, 10 Jul 2019 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
I am assuming that you are another in a like way.

Can you ask your self this same question?

What was the question exactly? I only see a simple declarative sentence. And the one below also.

Let it Be

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Wed, 10 Jul 2019 #4
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

I think that the question that Peter has put is the title of the thread: How is it that I am this one?

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #5
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
How is it that I am this one?

Duh! I missed that. Thanks Dan. HOW am I this one and not another one? Not a Trump or a K or a homeless person? Is that the question?

Let it Be

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #6
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

I'm thinking that "why"/"how" is a unique human brain invention and that it makes sense in certain contexts of survival... but as a cosmic/spiritual question, "why"/"how" may have no place at all...except to rattle our limited, fevered brains?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 11 Jul 2019.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #7
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I missed that. Thanks Dan. HOW am I this one and not another one? Not a Trump or a K or a homeless person? Is that the question?

Yes, but also include all of the animals.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #8
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

I think that question indicates that we are not seeing the whole picture. Something has been left out and we are satisfied with that. We are overlooking something.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Thu, 11 Jul 2019.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #9
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

What do you see has been left out Peter?

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #10
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

First, we think we are something that we are not, and we are not even aware of this error. This is even so for those who are supposedly aware (per K) that the self is thought. That error obscures a deeper self. One takes ones self to be the person.

So what is the self? One can't explore this if one already knpws.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Yes, but also include all of the animals.

The earthworm? The sardine? I suppose there's some primitive awareness in the insect, but intelligence? Love? Compassion?

Let it Be

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #12
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
One can't explore this if one already knpw

Explore in what manner?

Let it Be

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #13
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
, but intelligence? Love? Compassion?

Good question. But doesn't K say these are all the same thing?

There is a oneness to things that, as seen here, is the reality.

Intelligence, love, compassion aren't these naming?

No division.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #14
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

How would sentience in the insect be different from sentience in us?

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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
There is a oneness to things that, as seen here, is the reality.

Intelligence, love, compassion aren't these naming?

Well of course there’s naming, but the map isn’t the territory. K spoke a lot of love, beauty, goodness, intelligence, even supreme Intelligence, I think. Joy... What is life without beauty or love? Perhaps it’s the life of the fish or insect. But we are not insects. Bernadette Roberts (the Experience of No Self) said, “All is God....all but the self.”

Let it Be

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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan posted this on another thread today:

From the QOTD:

K." But to be aware, in our relationship how cruel we are, thoughtless, callous, self-enclosed, is very painful, and being conscious of the immediate pain which direct awareness brings, we would rather think of, or be aware of the universal consciousness, whatever that may mean, which again is a form of escape from the actual, from what is."

Let it Be

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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 #17
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Tom,

I see you as being stuck. Probably you see me as being stuck. What can we do except to each have an affectionate concern for the other?

Peter

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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:

645 posts in this forum
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Hello Tom,

I see you as being stuck. Probably you see me as being stuck.

Haha, no. I don’t have any opinions about you at all, Peter. I sodo feel that the only reality is ‘what is’, now. When we don’t name it, then that is God, if you will...Truth with a capital T. And thought can in no way touch that ultimate reality.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #19
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
In essence Peter we could be 'every other' couldn't we?...

Are you seeing that we actually are all others?

Not any other. But every other.

This light in ones self which, as seen here, is what we truly are, is one. It has nothing in it here that can distinguish it from the beeing of it that is there...in all others.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #20
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

The person is the result of all of the material events that preceded its existence. The person is matter, a material thing. Just as (per K) thought is matter.

What i am is not this one at all.

This light by its being and seeing that it is not the person, not matter, can effect change in the matter that is the body and the brain. By its being external to it. It can observe the so called observer such that "The observer is the observed"

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
This light in ones self which, as seen here, is what we truly are, is one. It has nothing in it here that can distinguish it from the beeing of it that is there...in all others.

Yes Peter this has been said in different ways and I think that it is probably so. But being here in the realm of 'organic life' or as it has occurred to me, the 'realm of suffering' we are entangled in it. If you look around you have to agree that humanity has not to any large degree managed to become free from the bondage of 'conditioning'. So can you say why others have not been able to realize the "light" that you see as what we truly are...and not these fragmented beings that we have been conditioned to believe that we are? What is the impediment to that 'flowering', as you see it?

I see that you just now posted.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #22
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
This light by its being and seeing that it is not the person, not matter, can effect change in the matter that is the body and the brain. By its being external to it. It can observe the so called observer such that "The observer is the observed"

Alright but is there a preparation that the body must make in order that this change in the 'matter' can be received? A cessation of the 'noise' perhaps?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Alright but is there a preparation that the body must make in order that this change in the 'matter' can be received?

Who could do that Dan other than thought....which would be meaningless wouldn't it? Thought seeking to receive that which is beyond thought....that's only a trick of thought.

Let it Be

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #24
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
By its being external to it. It can observe the so called observer such that "The observer is the observed"

Yes the 'light' of awareness dissolves the 'shadow' between the observer and the observed.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #25
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Thought seeking to receive that which is beyond thought....that's only a trick of thought.

Sure that is the way we always start out and then discover the motive and discard it. Thought can realize that always being in a state of "craving" and 'wanting' is a kind of ignorance. So delving into that can bring about a quieting perhaps and the realization that you can't pour anything into a glass that is already full...We can't "invite" the other, thought can't summon intelligence but by being 'quiet' it may or may not come? By 'letting go' of the idea that psychological suffering is a 'given'?

Peter is saying as I hear it that what we are is not "matter", that we are the impersonal energy or "light" behind matter. Our 'problem' is that we believe that we are matter and our struggle takes place at that level.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #26
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Our 'problem' is that we believe that we are matter and our struggle takes place at that level.

That’s true...we believe we are a physical and psychological person who ‘has’ a body and ‘has’ thoughts and memories. But why is struggle inevitable? K always related struggle/conflict to thought.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #27
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
we believe we are a physical and psychological person who ‘has’ a body and ‘has’ thoughts and memories. But why is struggle inevitable?

When the thought occurred to me that when someone (Buddha?) said "All is suffering" (or something similar) that that could actually refer to all organic life here. It is all 'suffering' in the sense, not of pain but of struggle. The relentless struggle to find food, to be warm...the trees and plants to find the sunlight, the roots to find nourishment etc. A daily struggle just to exist, to stay alive here on this plane...And for us; to get money, status, recognition, respect, justice...a cradle to grave struggle to "become" psychologically as well as satisfy our physical requirements. The realm of 'matter' of which we are part is the 'realm of suffering'. Yes? Now Peter has brought in this other realm, the realm of "light" and says that is what 'we' (though there is no plurality?), all life truly is, 'Light'. And the way that I hear him present it is that 'he' actually 'identifies' himself with the 'light' while we struggle here being the flesh and blood... That's probably not well put, maybe he can put it differently.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When the thought occurred to me that when someone (Buddha?) said "All is suffering" (or something similar) that that could actually refer to all organic life here. It is all 'suffering' in the sense, not of pain but of struggle.

I don’t recall our cat struggling. Watching the deer in the park I never notice them struggling either. Or the spider spinning his web and then waiting patiently for the poor fly. In fact one characteristic of the ‘lower’ animals is they don’t have conflict....struggle. The reason is fairly obvious, I think....no ideals, beliefs, images of right or wrong...no self.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #29
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1516 posts in this forum Offline

Think 'struggle' as opposed to doing absolutely nothing. No making a web, no waiting for the fly, no 'eating'-period...no doing what is necessary to stay alive, to procreate. Where I live, the animals I see are on an almost constant search for food. And then there's sex, procreation, the whole 'struggle' of finding the 'right' lover/mate. The fighting over territory...We see this as quite ordinary because we were born into the midst of it, we're part of it, but show me somewhere else in the universe where this 'kind' of thing is going on...you can't , I can't but all I'm saying is that it takes a lot of work to stay alive here...it's a 'struggle'. Why? What 'purpose' does all this serve? It may, on some cosmic level we can't understand. (K. has said "the house is burning") But Peter is saying that we are not what we have imagined (been conditioned?) to believe ourselves to be here on this earth. We are 'awareness'. (?)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #30
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2848 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I can't but all I'm saying is that it takes a lot of work to stay alive here...it's a 'struggle'. Why? What 'purpose' does all this serve?

I don’t see ‘work’ as struggle...not in the least. K said it’s a false separation ....work vs play. The potter or artisan may find joy in his work. I know I myself did when young. Work is part of life. Gathering fire wood....gathering food in the wild....building a fire. The pygmies seem to find great joy in daily living. What purpose? It can simply be a great joy....living...working, not separate from play. It’s thought that turns everything into a struggle. I don’t think the cat struggles....even when hunting a mouse....or the owl in hunting its prey. The whale or dolphin...struggle? Conflict? Only man I think feels confused and in conflict, and this is a result of thought.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 13 Jul 2019.

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