Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Work of David Bohm


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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
There is a lot of David Bohm to be found on "David Bohm society".

Thanks for this, Wim. I have before visited various webpages about Bohm, but I did not realise there was apparently such extensive work going on around him, his legacy.Unfortunately when I wrote to them, the email address they provide failed. I will try again.

I have ordered a copy of his biography, "Infinite Potential" and at the moment reading with great interest "Thought as a system".

I think I will start a new thread for this topic, and see where it goes.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
I’ve read „thought as a system“ over the years I think ten to fifteen times. And I always found something new

Yes, I have just started on my second reading.

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
I also have attended some workshop in the „Pari center for new learning“ ( www.paricenter.com ) and will be there again at the end of August.

I have passed this information on to a friend in Italy, who himself runs a sort of Center.

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Nevertheless Bohm, Krishnamurti or any other “teacher” are for me no one to follow. They are rather a starting point for experiencing in my usual life. I think it is more important to experience life as a whole (or sometimes separately) than staying with theories or abstractions of any kind.

Can you say more about what you mean by "experiencing life as a whole", Manfred?

To return to Bohm, I have been so moved, enthused by his work, of late, I am organising a weekend retreat on the topic "The Problem of Thought", aided by material from both Bohm and K, although principally the intention is to directly examine thought in ourselves. And I have friends in Auckland who are also organising a weekend retreat around the book "Thought as a system".

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Clive,

Only recently discovered a very interesting book:
"Essential David Bohm" by Lee Nichols.

In infinite potential there are claims anti K. but Saral Bohm says that somethings should better stay private.

Also David is explaining his work to his brother in law in very simple language and examples.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
In infinite potential there are claims anti K.

What exactly does this mean, Wim? I have heard vague rumours of a "falling out" between Bohm and K, but I have no idea of the origins of it, the form it took.

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
What exactly does this mean, Wim?

I do not know what it means exactly, what I understand is that there were tensions both within the K. circles and within the scientific circles around David.

David Peat, the author of 'Infinite potential', announces in the biography of David that the first two tapes of the series "Ending of time" were not published because it looked too much like David K. was lecturing K. and this by the K. circles is obscured under the guise of poor quality of the recordings.

Also a remark from K. about Saral Bohm's participation in conversations 'she is'nt in it' was apparently experienced as very bad by him.

The suggestion that something went wrong between David and Krishnaji is contradicted by Saral by her comment in "Essential David Bohm" that 'some things should be kept private' and by David's continuing to talk about those things until the end of his life. about which they had conducted so many dialogues about.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3093 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

In infinite potential there are claims anti K.
What exactly does this mean, Wim? I have heard vague rumours of a "falling out" between Bohm and K, but I have no idea of the origins of it, the form it took.

I heard about that too. I know Bohm suffered with depression and that fwir K expressed disappointment that Bohm never ‘got it’. And that apparently hurt him deeply. That’s what I read, but I can’t provide a reference. It was possibly on the forum and I for sure can’t verify it. I definitely read that there was a falling out.

Let it Be

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #7
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
David Peat, the author of 'Infinite potential', announces in the biography of David that the first two tapes of the series "Ending of time" were not published

Are you saying, Wim, that there are two dialogues that STILL have not been published? Or were they eventually published in "The Ending of Time"?

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Mon, 08 Jul 2019 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I heard about that too. I know Bohm suffered with depression and that fwir K expressed disappointment that Bohm never ‘got it’. And that apparently hurt him deeply.

If you look at David's history, there are a number of remarkable things to note. I think a special one has a lot to do with the rumor.

 For example, his illness has a family history with which he and Saral did not want to burden their offspring and they decided to remain childless.

Just in that period of so-called removal, the book "Lives in the shadow of Krishnamurtii" has been published.

I can well imagine that given their life it was a bitter pill for them to swallow and may need some time to process.

If you then read his thanks to K. in 'thought as a system' that is of a later date, he apparently stepped over this personal tragedy and proceeded on what they had both worked on.

the greater than himself was apparently more important or perhaps his passion for the whole was so overwhelming that he, like K., could not help but keep talking about it.

It is my current view of the matter with great respect for David and Saral.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Are you saying, Wim, that there are two dialogues that STILL have not been published?

I've looked into it and if this claim of David Peat is right ,
they STILL are not published !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 08 Jul 2019.

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Tue, 09 Jul 2019 #9
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

This time I got a reply to my inquiry to the David Bohm Society. Here are the main details?

We have two lists:

https://mailmanlists.us/mailman/listinfo/davidb...

This list is to discuss Bohm/K's proposals, and to discuss the
activity of the society.

https://mailmanlists.us/mailman/listinfo/bohmdi...

This second list is to discuss Bohm dialogue. Initially there was only one list but the conversation was dominated by discussions of dialogue or attempts at dialogue over the list so we thought it best to give it its own list.

To join either list visit the links above.

Please note that the lists are pretty quiet right now and are not high volume in general. We're not trying to attempt dialogue online, although hopefully the spirit of dialogue infuses this medium.

There are however some very serious participants present. I think we're up to 14 members on each list.

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Thu, 11 Jul 2019 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

I, have started to read David Peat’s biography of David Bohm, adied by some illness :-). I have no inclination to analyse it; in fact my response to it at the moment is …... just deep feeling. Perhaps I will post a few extracts that move me most, or catch my attention. I do not at the moment feel any movement to”understand them”

Such as:

As a boy crossing the river, Bohm had seen the world as a flowing movement . Now he realized that Hegel had revealed the nature of this most basic movement of reality. Thought is movement; yet thought also attempts to hold fast to itself and seeks security. It does so by entering more deeply into a particular thought. But each particular thought is limited, and by entering into it, thought must eventually reach contradiction. The basic movement that occurs when thought attempts to hold fast is to enter a region where a particular thought eventually enters into this contradiction. Contradiction has the effect of taking thought from the particular into a region beyond. Therefore in the very act of arresting thought, of seeking certainty, a new movement emerges.

(from the book p180)

The reference to “crossing the river” refers to the young Bohm trying to jump from boulder to boulder. Initially, as was his tendency, he had tried to “think himself across”, using thought to plan each step. But he realised this was impossible, his momentum would cause him to unbalance, to fall. The only way to cross the river using the boulders was to “let himself go”, trust the movement itself. These are my words, not the book's, and I can remember making the same practical discovery myself at the seashore.

Returning to the book:

The moment of insight became so significant to him that he told the story many times during his life. Up to that point, David had assessed each situation in his life,never fully committing himself, always fearful of being pulled along by “irrational currents”. At that moment, however, he suddenly realised that security does not require control and stillness but can come in a freely flowing movement.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #11
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

In 1987 David Bohm wrote a short piece to be read at the memorial service for one of his early classmates. The piece was also read at Bohm’s own memorial service, at Birkbeck College:

“In considering the relationship between the finite and the infinite, we are led to observe that the whole field of the finite is inherently limited, in that it has no independent existence. It has the appearance of  independent existence, but that appearance is merely the result of an abstraction of our thought.  We can see this dependent nature of the finite from the fact that every finite thing is transient…

Our ordinary view holds that the field of the finite is all that there is.   But if the finite has no independent existence, it cannot be all there is.  We are in this led to propose that the true ground of all being is infinite, the unlimited; and that the infinite includes and contains the finite.  In this view, the finite, with its transient nature, can only be understood as held suspended, as it were beyond time and space, within the infinite.

The field of the finite is all that we can see, hear, touch, remember and describe. This field is basically that which is manifest, or tangible. The essential quality of the infinite, by contrast, is its subtlety, its intangibility. This quality is conveyed in the word spirit, whose root meaning is 'wind, or breath'. This suggests an invisible but pervasive energy, to which the manifest world of the finite responds. This energy, or spirit, infuses all living beings, and without it any organism must fall apart into its constituent elements. That which is truly alive in the living being is this energy of spirit, and this is never born and never dies."

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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 #12
Thumb_avatar Manfred Kritzler Germany 59 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Clive, it is amazing, this piece of paper I am carrying always with me in my suitcase. There is another one from Albert Einstein which has a similar meaning:

My Credo, by Albert Einstein
“The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious.
It is the underlying principle of religion as well as of all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind.
To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious.
To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all there is.”

My interpretation of both opinions:

There is experience of us as human beings which is in its recognizable form always limited. But when we are aware of this limitations that what is “beyond” is also alive in us. We act in thought but are open for what is beyond. When we hold only our thought system for existing our behavior will only be able to act in this limitations and block out what is beyond.

Again, this is expressed in thought and therefore always open for change through another thought or “beyond”.

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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 #13
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
Again, this is expressed in thought and therefore always open for change through another thought or “beyond”.

That's so very true, Manfred.

Here is something about David Bohm's activity:

Science, Spirituality, and the Present World Crisis

(Presented at the 12th International Transpersonal Association Conference by David Bohm; this conference ran from June 20 to June 25th, 1992)

Stanislav Grof introduces David Bohm: Good morning again. As I mentioned earlier this morning while introducing Dr. Karl Pribram, one of the reasons why traditional science refuses to accept spirituality as a relevant and legitimate dimension of existence is a mechanical understanding of the brain. However, this in itself has much deeper roots in the mechanistic understanding of the physical universe itself which is based on a marriage between philosophical materialism and the selective views of certain ideas of Isaac Newton and Rene Descartes.

While the pioneers of modern physics have in the first decades of the twentieth century transcended all the essential aspects of the Newtonian-Cartesian paradigm this way of thinking still has a firm grip on many other scientific disciplines whose theories were historical derivatives of this paradigm. Such as biology and medicine and then particularly psychology and psychiatry.

Many of us who consider spirituality to be an important dimension of existence would like to feel that this does not automatically exclude us from the ranks of science. I find it very encouraging that many of the great scientists who developed quantum-relativist physics found their own revolutionary contributions to be compatible with deep appreciation of the spiritual or mystical dimension of existence, the prime example being Albert Einstein.

This morning I have the great honor and privilege to welcome among us Professor David Bohm, one of the leading physicists of our time. His theory of holomovement is considered by many to be one of the most creative and imaginative accomplishments in the history of science. Dr. Bohm’s concept of the explicate and implicate order, of the relationship between consciousness and matter, between thought, intellect and intelligence, his outline of the rheomode (which is a form of language that doesn’t use nouns) – they have all have become a source of inspiration for theoreticians from many different disciplines. Although initially conceived as an attempt to solve the many paradoxes of quantum physics, his work has profound implications that extend far beyond the boundaries of this discipline. These include for example, an entirely new understanding of human history, of creativity in general, and of art in science in particular, and of economy and politics.

Since the focus of our conference is the global crisis, I would like to emphasize especially Dr. Bohm’s important contribution to the understanding of the roots of this crisis that he sees in thinking in terms of separateness and of fragmentation rather than wholeness

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 20 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 21 Jul 2019 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5546 posts in this forum Offline

Manfred Kritzler wrote:
There is experience of us as human beings which is in its recognizable form always limited. But when we are aware of this limitations that what is “beyond” is also alive in us. We act in thought but are open for what is beyond. When we hold only our thought system for existing our behavior will only be able to act in this limitations and block out what is beyond.

Again, this is expressed in thought and therefore always open for change through another thought or “beyond”.

Yes, this is crucial indeed. As I read your statement, it implies the on-going realisation that whatever thought expresses is not an absolute, is not reality. It is indeed subject to, open to change through another thought.

Perhaps in the past this mutability of thought has given rise to much conflict within me. Internal battles develop (and of course external battles) over which thoughts are true and which are false. But there is an understanding now (which can never become a fixed understanding, a conclusion) that this is unnecessary – because thought is only doing what thought does.

How to explain, to convey this? There should be no expectation that thought conveys “the truth”, because that is not the nature of thought.

So what IS the nature, the function of thought? I suggest that thought’s function is to protect the organism. Or at least that was the original function. The “wrong turn” that has been spoken of so often extended this protection to beyond the body, to thought’s own creation, the self. And because of this things have gone very badly wrong for the human race.

What is necessary is to see thought for what it is. And for thought not to pretend that it is other than it is, that it has functions that it does not really love.

But I do not mean that thought should develop fixed ideas of what it is, and what its boundaries are. As Bohm suggested, there always needs to be space in the mind for the new, for the unknown, for something different.

I have been traveling, still am in fact, and have had no time for the forum.

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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 #15
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1647 posts in this forum Offline

'Being as nothing', thought really has no place. It tries to 'interfere' in this moment but it can be seen for the small thing that it is. It simply has no place, it is 'out of place'. Seeing 'what is', is the absence of the movement of thought, the silence of thought... Is it what the poet was trying to describe when he wrote, "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth. That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know."?

From the QOTD: (my bold)

K. "If you are concerned with what is beyond the nothingness, it means you are frightened of being nothing. 'Be nothing'. Life then becomes extraordinarily simple and beautiful. Being nothing, i.e. acknowledging 'what is', is one of the most difficult tasks because mind does not like it, because it is afraid of being nothing, i.e. of having no security."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 22 Jul 2019.

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Thu, 28 Nov 2019 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

David Peat, the author of 'Infinite potential', announces in the biography of David that the first two tapes of the series "Ending of time" were not published

Are you saying, Wim, that there are two dialogues that STILL have not been published? Or were they eventually published in "The Ending of Time"?

Hi Clive,

Here is some news on this matter.

In the new edition of "The ending of time" two chapters are added but those are in the middle of the dialogue, why I've no idea.

Other very interesting information can be found in "An uncommon collaboration" from David Edmund Moody. This book set me on fire to translate for the Dutch people and the cause of my absence on the forum.

It appears that "Truth and Actuality" is just a small subset of a dialogue which is withold by the influence of Mary Lutyens because of the reason David Peat mentioned. Still the whole set is not yet published, according to Moody without any reason to do so. Also comments on David Peat's biography of David Bohm on the personal issue.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 28 Nov 2019.

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Mon, 13 Jan 2020 #17
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Hi Clive,

Here is some news on this matter.

In the new edition of "The ending of time" two chapters are added but those are in the middle of the dialogue, why I've no idea.

The two added chapters are:
11 'the liberation of thought'
12 'the intelligence of Love'

A member of the dialoque group at Gent pointed to me yesterday that those chapters are publiced in: "The limits of Thought" as chapter 6 and 7.

When looked into it found out that the previous chapters 1 to 5 are recorded in the period may till august 1975.
If one look into the information given in "Truth and actuality" the first three chapters are also recorded in this period!

So if this are the talks Moody is talking about in his:
" An uncomon collaboration ", which seems very likely, then by counting there are 5 + 3 = 8 talks from those 12 he talks about publiced.

Why not publicing those other 4 ?

Is the archive in such a mess that they missed the chapters or is there still something withholding from the whole dialogue ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 13 Jan 2020 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

On request here an excerpt from the regarding chapter from "An uncommon Collaboration".

chapter 11 : "BOHM'S RESERVATIONS"
Over the course of two decades, beginning in 1964, Krishnamurti and Bohm engaged in 144 recorded dialogues. Many of these conversations occurred with one or two other individuals present and participating, or with small groups. Some of the dialogues, however, were conducted with Krishnamurti and Bohm exclusively. Among these were the dialogues mentioned in the preceding chapter, a dozen conversations conducted over a period of five months in 1975. At that time, Krishnamurti's work was organized and managed by foundations located on three continents, in America, England, and India. All publication issues were handled by a committee organized by the foundation in England. That committee regarded the 1975 series of dialogues as sufficiently interesting to warrant publication as a book. As a result, the dialogues were transcribed, edited, and prepared for presentation to the world.
This series of dialogues featured an effort by Bohm to elaborate upon a new vocabulary he had introduced into his conversations with Krishnamurti. Bohm was fascinated by the root, etymological meanings of words, and he considered it important to correlate these with the other elements of the overall philosophy the two men were exploring together. Among the terms he regarded as crucial were truth, reality, and actuality. By means of his analysis of the roots of these words - for example, reality is based upon the Latin res, or "thing" - he invested them with meanings that we do not ordinarily ascribe to them, but which he felt corresponded with Krishnamurti's work. In this perspective, reality no longer represents the familiar meaning of what is the case, or the way things actually are. Instead, reality is a construction of thought, and may or may not correspond with the world as it is. Bohm prefers to reserve the term ac¬tuality for what is in fact the case; and truth represents a kind of distil¬lation or special instance of actuality. He goes to some lengths to elu¬cidate these distinctions, and Krishnamurti is receptive to his efforts. Partly for this reason, Bohm at times appears to be taking the initiative and guiding the course of the conversation. Anyone familiar with the two men and their work together would realize that Bohm is offering his ideas to Krishnamurti for their mutual exploration. But to an outside observer, this might not have been so clear.
Among the trustees of the Krishnamurti foundation in England, as well as a member of the publications committee, was Mary Lutyens, his official biographer, whose relationship with Krishnamurti is described in a previous chapter. In 1977, the edited transcripts of Bohm's dialogues with Krishnamurti, all set for publication, came to her attention. As she was a member of the publications committee, it is not clear why she had not seen the transcripts earlier. Perhaps, as she was not actively involved in the editing process, it was simply passed along to her and to others for final approval. In any case, when she read the edited transcripts, she objected strongly to their publication.
According to private correspondence I have received from a reliable source, Lutyens felt that the dialogues presented Krishnamurti in a manner that was not authentic. They were overly intellectual, in her view, and the vocabulary that Bohm was promulgating was not familiar to her and did not correspond with her sense of Krishnamurti's work. Above all, perhaps, she felt the dialogues presented Krishnamurti in the role of a student being instructed by Bohm, which would present a false image to the public of their actual relationship. She went so far as to count the number of lines spoken by each man, and she objected to the fact that Bohm spoke more than Krishnamurti. Among the members of the publications committee, Lutyens was alone in her objections, but she was adamant. She threatened to resign from any further role if the book went forward. More to the point, perhaps, she spoke with Krishnamurti and expressed her concerns to him. As a result, in the end, her opinion won the day. Portions of three of the dialogues were published in 1978, but some twenty years elapsed before additional portions were published, and about half of the material is still not available in printed form.
There remained the delicate task of informing Bohm of what had transpired. Only Krishnamurti could do so, and he was evidently somewhat careless in the manner in which he handled it. Rather than sitting down with Bohm and discussing the matter thoroughly, he mentioned it rather casually at the end of a lunchtime conversation in the large dining hall at Brockwood Park. He offered as a kind of compensation that he and Bohm would conduct another series of conversations, and he assured Bohm that these would in fact be published. Krishnamurti's promise was carried out, and the ensuing series of dialogues, published under the title The Ending of Time, represents perhaps the most deep and comprehensive of all their conversations together. Nevertheless, Krishnamurti failed to grasp the impact upon Bohm of the decision not to publish the existing set of dialogues. He clearly miscalculated, for he seemed to think that Bohm was comfortable with this decision. But that was not the case.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 14 Jan 2020.

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Tue, 14 Jan 2020 #19
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

I've bolded some information in the previous reply, which explains that only one person objected the publication and also that 'Truth and Actuality' is a partial publication of much larger material from the talks.

why after all those years in honor of David Bohm not a complete set of those 12 talks?
Is there still censoring taking place or no capacity to do so ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 15 Jan 2020 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 862 posts in this forum Offline

Though I was looking for something else found on utube this list of 1975 audio talks between Krishnamurti and David Bohm.

Audio’s J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Brockwood Park 1975


  • 1: What is truth and what is reality? (18 may 1975 1.09.13

  • 2: Seeing 'what is' is action (24 may 1975 2.01.26)

  • 3: Thought cannot bring about insight (31 may 1975 1.18.43)

  • 4: The intelligence of Love (14 june 1975 1.27.32)

  • 5: Attention implies that there is no centre (22 june 1975 2.04.24)

  • 6: Perceiving without the perceiver (28 june 1975 2.18.54)

  • 7: If thought cannot achieve, why should it suffer? (18 july 1975 1.41.51)

  • 8: What is the substance of thought? (25 july 1975 1.44.40)

  • 9: Is there in the brain anything untouched by culture(?6 august 1975 1.40.38)

  • 10: Truth does not belong to an individual (27 september 1.15.05)

  • 11: What is wisdom which is not a movement of thought?(4 october 1.49.26)

  • 12: Can the brain free itself from all self-delusion? (11 october 1.25.47)

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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