Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What is religion? - QOTD


Displaying posts 91 - 103 of 103 in total
Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #91
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What you are suggesting is contrary to human nature.

Is it contrary to "human nature" to wish to see if there can be an end to psychological conflict, violence and suffering, etc. in oneself?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #92
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is it contrary to "human nature" to wish to see if there can be an end to psychological conflict, violence and suffering, etc. in oneself?

No....wishing is certainly not contrary. Yet how many have ended conflict by wishing?

Let it Be

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #93
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
No....wishing is certainly not contrary. Yet how many have ended conflict by wishing?

Well the "wishing" has to be a non-wishing...a non-'doing'. But if conflict and despair is your thing...and it seems to be that most folks put up with it...because they say "well, hey, it's "human Nature". Is it? Or is it that 'wrong turning'?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #94
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
it seems to be that most folks put up with it...

Are you implying one can simply not put up with fear or depression? That seems to imply someone separate from the depression to say, I won’t put up with it?

Let it Be

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #95
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you implying one can simply not put up with fear or depression? That seems to imply someone separate from the depression to say, I won’t put up with it?

No I didn't. I said most people do put up with loneliness, jealousy, fear, conflict, hate etc. and they justify it by saying "it's human nature, nothing can be done and certainly not by me anyway, a psychiatrist maybe.." but K.'s fierce message as it comes across to me is that it isn't necessary to continue to go through all this agony. But we 'put up' with it because the alternative to be free of it, is felt to be just too much work, too "arduous". As k. said we'd rather "leave it to the priests..."

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #96
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
most people do put up with loneliness, jealousy, fear, conflict, hate etc. and they justify it by saying "it's human nature, nothing can be done and certainly not by me anyway, a psychiatrist maybe

The problem it seems is that we never come directly into contact with the conflict....the fear or jealousy. The problem, it seems to me, is that we have so many ideas and beliefs and conclusions about it/them....that it's wrong....a sign of weakness....something to be ashamed of....sinful, etc. It's not that we put up with it....with the problem/s, but that we don't know how to deal with them and the terrible pain involved....that we've been taught to condemn them or to try to overcome them by making an effort.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 19 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 #97
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The problem it seems is that we never come directly into contact with the conflict....the fear or jealousy.

Absolutely. In fact the idea of truly examining freely what is going on directly is radical. And I think most would consider it "impossible". But K. has shown us that it's not. He has pointed out the cunning traps that arise in trying to deal with the things that arise in us, with 'what is'..Trying to get rid of what is uncomfortable, unacceptable, embarrassing,...but we rarely if ever say "what is it that is really going on here?" Remember when he called 'anger' a "jewel", he was talking about this, wasn't he? But it does mean being 'free' to look, which means there isn't the duality of observer/observed. No judgement, condemnation, comparison...The 'observer' can never be free. It is the past. So there is an 'art' here as I see it. Not just exchanging one cunning pattern of resistance for another...

Tom: but that we don't know how to deal with them and the terrible pain involved....

It is thought with the 'thinker' that wants to "deal" with what is going on, isn't it? And there is already the duality, the condemnation, there. "Dealing with" is not what's called for but drawing very close to "examine", as I see it.

K. "If I let myself go, or if I abandon the centre ofme', I will live in a vacuum'. But have you ever really let go the me', actually, so that there is no"me' at all?" (from today's QOTD)

I woke up with this question this morning...this is what is necessary to be free. I want freedom but I want to keep my 'moorings'. The fear is that if I let go, I won't know what the next (psychological) moment holds...I'll be in the 'unknown' but that is where 'living' is, not this being 'tethered' to the past. It was very 'strong'. Do you see it that way?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 20 Jun 2019.

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Thu, 20 Jun 2019 #98
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K. "If I let myself go, or if I abandon the centre ofme', I will live in a vacuum'. But have you ever really let go the me', actually, so that there is no"me' at all?" (from today's QOTD)

I just read the QOTD and also thought it touched directly on what we were discussing. Here's some more:

K...Paris 1968:

So how can that essence of resistance, which is the me, how can that be completely `let go'? Because that is really the most fundamental question in all relationship, as one sees that the relationship between images is not relationship at all and that when that kind of relationship exists there must be conflict, that we must be at each other's throats.

When you put yourself that question, inevitably you'll say: "Must I live in a vacuum, in a state of emptiness?' I wonder if you have ever known what it is to have a mind that is completely empty. You have lived in space that is created by theme' (which is a very small space). The space which the I', the self-isolating process, has built between one person and another, that is all the space we know - the space between itself and the circumference - the frontier which thought has built. And in this space we live, in this space there is division. You say:If I let myself go, or if I abandon the centre of me', I will live in a vacuum'. But have you ever really let go the"me', actually, so that there is no `me' at all?

Let it Be

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Thu, 20 Jun 2019 #99
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2884 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I want freedom but I want to keep my 'moorings'. The fear is that if I let go, I won't know what the next (psychological) moment holds...I'll be in the 'unknown' but that is where 'living' is, not this being 'tethered' to the past. It was very 'strong'. Do you see it that way?

Not necessarily....not sure. I'm afraid to let go of some attachments, perhaps, but I've had so many moments walking alone in nature just observing with no 'me', that I don't think I'm afraid of being in a vacuum if the 'me' ends. I mean, the trees, the sky, the birds, your neighbor, child....all that will be there when the 'me' ends. In fact you'll see your neighbor in a totally new way...and the trees, sky, etc....when you're just observing, listening, seeing, perceiving.

Let it Be

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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 #100
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote, quoting K:
But have you ever really let go the"me', actually, so that there is no `me' at all?

I won't ask "how does one let go of the me?", which is obviously a false question, but ....how does this letting go come about, if that is at all possible? Obviously it is a crucial question, and one that has occupied at least some people for thousands of years, but I don't know if there is evidence that it has happened much. The few cases I have read about where the self fell away seem to have happened spontaneously, even at random, or following some sort of accident. And they don't necessarily last.

I think it can be said that there doesn't appear to be much inquiry going on into this issue in the world, despite its overwhelming importance. Religions have touched upon it, perhaps, but not got very far. Most energy goes into trying to resolve that many contradictions brought about by the actions of the self.

I received a text from a friend this morning, saying:

No matter how much food we give to thought, it cannot solve the problem.

What arose in me as response was :Why doesn't thought see this and stop trying completely? Why doesn't thought see that it just adds fuel to problems (psychological/emotional ones at least, and often technical ones).

To some extend I find that thought DOES see its own limitations. It does keep 'stopping', giving up on itself. But only momentarily, after giving up, letting go, it reappears.

Is this inevitable?

It is awareness that brings the letting go, isn't it? But it seems impossible for awareness to be there at the very birth of a thought. Is it that there is a scientific, biological, neurological reason for this, built into the system?

How do others see this? And is what I described the same for others?

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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 #101
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1567 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
To some extent I find that thought DOES see its own limitations. It does keep 'stopping', giving up on itself. But only momentarily, after giving up, letting go, it reappears.

Because you, me, we don't want to really die? The way I see it Clive is that we think that we are living, that we exist, (psychologically) and we want to keep it that way!...We fear the image of nothingness. But the image is false and that can only be discovered when we 'let go'.

Clive Elwell wrote:
It is awareness that brings the letting go, isn't it? But it seems impossible for awareness to be there at the very birth of a thought. Is it that there is a scientific, biological, neurological reason for this, built into the system?

I don't know. You, me, we, have to face this at a much more personal level than we've ever faced anything in ourselves before. It seems to me that there is no other 'way'. We have to come face to face with this fear of 'letting go'. Then we can see if the fear holds up.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 22 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 #102
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

K on religion:

When we use the word religion, we do not mean the nonsense of belief, rituals, dogma and hierarchical structure. We mean by religious men or religious women those who have freed themselves from centuries of propaganda, from the dead weight of tradition, ancient or modern.

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Sun, 23 Jun 2019 #103
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5404 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

Because you, me, we don't want to really die?

I think this may be so, Dan

And yet I see that it is essential to "be willing" to die, be willing to let go of all the known, to be - nothing.

And yes, it is so that all we have is the image of nothingness. We don't really know what nothing actually is.

Dan McDermott wrote:
It seems to me that there is no other 'way'. We have to come face to face with this fear of 'letting go'. Then we can see if the fear holds up.

It is also felt that there is joy, a sense of resolution, fulfillment even, when one does actually "let go". There is freedom implied in that movement.

You have deleted a post, haven't you :-). Cannot remember it, except you were questioning my questioning. You are most welcome to challenge me, Dan.

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