Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

What is religion? - QOTD


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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 #31
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
but if 'what is' was meaningful, (sacred even) why would there be dissatisfaction in the first place?

Because the new brain could and 'wanted' more than the old one? "Meaningful" might be alright for a monkey but what if you could have 'thrilling', exciting, stimulating...? According to another story, isn't that why Adam and Eve with their new brains, got kicked out of that 'meaningful' (sacred?) garden?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 11 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #32
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Thought was the culprit, of course. Thought developed in the cortex, but "got lost in itself". It did not understand its own nature.

In the physical environment, thought is the 'problem solver'. Finding the best way to survive by overcoming whatever challenge presents itself...But thought is time. The time it takes to implement this plan or that...carry out this action or that etc. but bringing that into the psyche is poison. The poison of becoming this or that in this 'time' that doesn't exist....and constructing a wall between the human being and his environment. A wall of 'past', 'present', and 'future' and psychologically locking us out of the 'timeless now'. Trapping us in this false 'time'. And then coming up with all sorts of ways that we might 'escape'...Strange. But as Bohm said ,we did it because we could.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 11 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Because we’re divided from it...from what is....we’re not in contact with what is. We’re reacting to what is based upon what was.
Interesting, intriguing, Tom. Need to examine this.

Here’s an experiment you can do some time when you’re in a shopping mall or other public venue. Observe your reactions to each person you pass as you’re walking....or simply sit on a bench and observe your reactions to each person who passes. Are you in direct contact with the person or are you reacting to an image that comes up....they look nice or interesting or dumb or intelligent, or there’s an instant feeling of like or dislike or attraction or repulsion. But we’re almost never in contact with the real person....only with our image or images. We judge them by their dress, by their physical appearance (too fat or thin, strong, weak, very short or tall, dark skin or light, blond or curly hair, etc). All images of them are based upon our past experiences...our conditioning. Same with our images and reactions to the Jew or Muslim or Black or White or Asian, etc. We have images about the person we observe in the same way we have an image about the rose or the tree we observe. And these images divide from the living person or thing....from the reality of the rose or the tree or the person we observe.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 11 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #34
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
One has not “stepped completely out of the stream of human consciousness”, to use a K phrase again.

There is a static-ness about this image that can become a 'stumbling block' (a conditioning?) I think, to simply moving with one's every thought. As if something like this 'stepping out' has to be 'accomplished' in order for this moving without effort or motive with ones thinking to take place....The 'moving with' is the 'stepping out', isn't it?. It has no end. It gets no result. There is the 'losing it' and the 'picking it up'. There is no 'getting better' at it. To see thought as a flowing river where to 'do' anything other than to watch its flow is to 'impede' it, is a beautiful image...It is as has been said in the QOTD, an "eternal movement".

K. "If you condition that free flowing movement of thought, of mind and heart, then you must have conflict, and that conflict then must have a remedy, and then the process begins: the searching for remedies, substitutes, and never trying to find out the cause of this conflict."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 11 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #35
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If you condition that free flowing movement of thought, of mind and heart, then you must have conflict

”If”? What? It’s already conditioned. The movement of mind and heart, that is. Why does he think we are in perpetual conflict?

Let it Be

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #36
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

K.:If you condition that free flowing movement of thought, of mind and heart, then you must have conflict

If a 'condition' is placed upon the free-flowing movement of thought by the thinker (?), that 'conditioning' impedes the flow and creates 'friction'. I think that somewhere K. said that the self is the result of this constant state of friction?

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #37
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5159 posts in this forum Offline

Talking about belief, this is from the daily quote of J Krishnamurti on line.

The house of your beliefs, of your properties, of your attachments and comforting ways of thinking is constantly being broken into. But the mind goes on seeking security, so there is a conflict between what you want and what life’s process demands of you. This is what is happening to every one of us. I do not know if this problem interests you at all. Everyday existence, with all its troubles, seems to be sufficient for most of us. Our only concern is to find an immediate answer to our various problems. But sooner or later the immediate answers are found to be unsatisfactory because no problem has an answer apart from the problem itself. But if I can understand the problem, all the intricacies of it, then the problem no longer exists.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5159 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Here’s an experiment you can do some time when you’re in a shopping mall or other public venue.

Strangely Tom, when I read your mail I was sitting outside at a cafe in a thoroughfare of Auckland University, doing exactly what you describe. Yes, judgements, judgements, judgements.

Why do we do this? Why don't we just look?

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5159 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote #32:
But thought is time. The time it takes to implement this plan or that...carry out this action or that etc.

Yes Dan, seeing this as if for the first time. And action is NOT in time, is it? When the body needs to act, as in an emergency, the first thing that happens is that thought stops.

However, thought does 'plan for action'. Very much so. And it seems that this is necessary, useful at times, as you say. But can also be very destructive, as in planning for war.

I have read through your mail several times, pondering this "thought is time". And, as K also said, "time is thought". Yes, it is so. Why does it have such a grip upon us?

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Yes, judgements, judgements, judgements.

And those judgements are based upon ‘what was’...the past....therefore we’re never in contact with ‘what is’. Why? Yes, that’s the question. I see a Jew or Muslim or Hindu and memory immediately kicks in. We can’t even look at our neighbors and friends without images....positive or negative or both.

Let it Be

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #41
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why? Yes, that’s the question. I see a Jew or Muslim or Hindu and memory immediately kicks in. We can’t even look at our neighbors and friends without images....positive or negative or both.

We had to assess others 'looks' from childhood to tell the friends from the foes. For survival. We had to learn to navigate the world without the animals wired in info. Humans are devious. To see through the traps they might be setting for us meant that we had to be clever, shrewd, or we would be exploited or worse. So it's not a surprise that when we see someone or something that there is already an 'image' there by which we can assess what or who is in front of us? That's the 'why' of it, the image forming mechanism, isn't it?

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #42
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We had to assess others 'looks' from childhood to tell the friends from the foes. For survival.

For survival? But this kind of division is the cause of war.

Let it Be

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #43
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
For survival? But this kind of division is the cause of war.

And your point is that it 'shouldn't' be the way it is?

And I agree and that's why we're trying to understand this in ourselves, no?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 11 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 11 Jun 2019 #44
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
And your point is that it 'shouldn't' be the way it is?

I left out slavery and the holocaust. Any relatively sane person wants to find out if we can change.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #45
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I left out slavery and the holocaust. Any relatively sane person wants to find out if we can change.

So your point is that any one who was for slavery or for the Holocaust was insane? Could you be a little bit for either and then only a little bit insane? Not having lived or been born in those circumstances where that was going on, how can you know what you would have been? (Unless you're black or jewish of course!) Judgement no matter how obvious or 'right' it may seem is always divisive, isn't it?.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #46
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So your point is that any one who was for slavery or for the Holocaust was insane?

Obviously such a person has zero compassion for the suffering of another. Zero empathy....zero love for their fellow man. Call that what you will. Is that judgement or simply stating facts?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #47
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Judgement no matter how obvious or 'right' it may seem is always divisive, isn't it?.

I edited my previous post to address this point.

Let it Be

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #48
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Obviously such a person has zero compassion for the suffering of another. Zero empathy....zero love for their fellow man. Call that what you will

You bring in compassion but didn't the slave drivers have their families that they 'loved' and the nazis who went home each night to theirs? Is compassion something you can pass out like candy or is it something we know nothing about? What K. is talking about, not this selfish, little, limited feeling that we know?

You and I are not ,thankfully, the nazi behind the machine gun or the slave driver with his whip... they are us...and we are them. That is what "you are the world" means to me, Not just the parts I approve of or disapprove of , but all of it.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #49
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
You bring in compassion but didn't the slave drivers have their families that they 'loved' and the nazis who went home each night to theirs?

The point I was making before you took this in a whole other direction was lost. Perhaps I’ll try to remember what it was at another time.

Let it Be

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #50
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The point I was making before you took this in a whole other direction was lost.

Maybe it had to do with 'images'...You and I Tom share a terrible memory from childhood: the nazi war films. The raw, sickening face of evil. And it is still in the world. The children being taken from their parents and locked away. The rise of anti-semitism, anti-muslim, white 'supremacy' and the disaster of Capitalism...and people just go about their business just as the germans did.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #51
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Maybe it had to do with 'images'

Exactly...I raised the issue and you replied in post 41. Somehow we got thrown off track from the question I posed to Clive, I think, originally. Here was my question:

Tom Paine wrote:

Why? Yes, that’s the question. I see a Jew or Muslim or Hindu and memory immediately kicks in. We can’t even look at our neighbors and friends without images....positive or negative or both.

Let it Be

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #52
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Maybe it had to do with 'images'...You and I Tom share a terrible memory from childhood: the nazi war films. The raw, sickening face of evil. And it is still in the world.

"in the world" and in me, yes? I have my own images...maybe not as hateful as the Nazi images, but producing disorder in my own life. What do we do when we see that the world disorder...war, etc....is a result of these 'psychological' images?

Let it Be

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #53
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why? Yes, that’s the question. I see a Jew or Muslim or Hindu and memory immediately kicks in. We can’t even look at our neighbors and friends without images....positive or negative or both.

Is it because we ourselves are the image...not a 'me' looking through these images but that 'I' am the images? Without the images 'I' don't exist? Just questioning.

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #54
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What do we do when we see that the world disorder...war, etc....is a result of these 'psychological' images?

Thought's creation of images has gone dangerously beyond what was called for by 'survival'. Only 'intelligence' can show it the error of its ways. "Full awareness" K. says is what is necessary. Seeing the images as they are without any condemnation, substitution etc. The 'images' are the 'tethers' that are being discussed in the 'Eternity' topic, that 'tie' the mind to a partial, perverted understanding of the "true significance of the environment"... is I think what K may mean in his quote there?

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Wed, 12 Jun 2019 #55
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is it because we ourselves are the image...not a 'me' looking through these images but that 'I' am the images? Without the images 'I' don't exist?

Excellent question, Dan. The images are the 'me'...the self. Whether the self image, or my images of the Black or Hindu or Jew or my wife or child. Will try to look into this later....getting ready for work.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 12 Jun 2019.

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Thu, 13 Jun 2019 #56
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 62 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
how do you understand that word 'religion', if I may ask?

I cannot think of the word religion without associating it with organized religion. When I try to imagine what would be a non organized religion it does not make sense. I can only think of a religious person, who is someone who does not seek truth and yet tries to understand what is this all about only out of curiosity. Curiosity is the key factor, in my opinion. All religions simply kill curiosity by "explaining" almost everything, leaving the rest for faith.

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Thu, 13 Jun 2019 #57
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 62 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Can you say more about this "yes", Jose?

I think a confused mind can be a religious mind. I think there is a difference between an enlightened person and a religious person. A religious person is one who would give his life for it, expecting no reward. Just an opinion, of course.

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Thu, 13 Jun 2019 #58
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 62 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
When you say "religion" here, are you referring to any sort of organisation?

No. Please see my reply to Dan.

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #59
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1359 posts in this forum Offline

Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:
. A religious person is one who would give his life for it

Doesn't that mean that he/she is a slave to some belief or other? Why would it be necessary to give your life? I don't understand at all Jose. People are blowing themselves up...are they 'religious' or brainwashed? Why would true 'religion' be involved in any kind of violence?

Thinking some more on this:

We don't like to be 'confused', to be in a state of confusion. And the escape from that feeling is to attach or divert ourselves somehow. 'Belief' serves that purpose and 'delivers' us for a time from our state of being confused, of not-knowing...we can feel 'secure' with others who 'believe' as we do, etc. But whatever belief or pattern or diversion we've adopted to get away from the 'frightening' sense of confusion is based on the 'fear' of it, isn't it? So K. here is suggesting and it seems quite reasonable, don't try to escape the confusion...stay with it...don't go off somewhere else because it is uncomfortable. This is what I think being 'religious' might truly be. It is a radical idea, no doubt. And we have to discover whether it is valid or not by ourself.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 14 Jun 2019.

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Fri, 14 Jun 2019 #60
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2691 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
'Belief' serves that purpose and 'delivers' us for a time from our state of being confused, of not-knowing...we can feel 'secure' with others who 'believe' as we do, etc.

And that confusion is a result of other beliefs and ideals ....the result of thought. So we latch on to a more comforting thought....of God on Heaven or whatever. Here’s K in the QOTD today on religion:

“You have to find out for yourself whether what you call your religious experience is an escape from suffering, or whether it is the freedom from the cause of suffering, and hence the movement of reality. If you seek religious experience, then it must be false, because you are merely craving to escape from life and actuality; but when the mind frees itself from fear and its many limitations, then there is the flow of the ecstasy of life.”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 14 Jun 2019.

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