Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

The gift that lies in the heart of all suffering


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Sun, 03 Mar 2019 #1
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 253 posts in this forum Offline

Whatever psychological reaction, which is the appearance of a self-image, might occur in any of us, together with it there appears an opportunity to understand oneself totally through the observation of oneself without judgement/thought.

That is the Gift that lies in the heart of all mental disturbance, of all suffering.

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Mon, 04 Mar 2019 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4957 posts in this forum Offline

Yes Mina, and interesting to put it as you did “psychological reaction, which is the appearance of a self-image”. For suffering to exist, there must be the appearance of self-image. Yes, for suffering to be experienced, there must be the appearance of the one who suffers.
Carrying this a little further, if it is a fact that the self (self-image) is not real, only an illusion, then it is implied all suffering (psychological) is an illusion, no?

To return to your post, can we put it this way: all suffering contains its own antidote? I attended a dialogue meeting yesterday, which after a promising start, scattered all over the place. As dialogue, the meeting might be regarded as a “failure”. But what emerged for me was that thought can never, under any circumstances, solve our human problems. This is clarity in the chaos, and if that is faced, how can one talk of failure?

So there is always much to be learnt from so-called “failure” - and when there is learning there IS no such thing as failure.

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Fri, 08 Mar 2019 #3
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1199 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
if it is a fact that the self (self-image) is not real, only an illusion, then it is implied all suffering (psychological) is an illusion, no?

That may be logically, but when we suffer, we hurt, we cringe, we cry etc., "illusion" or not...I think Mina has put all that psychological suffering and pain, anguish, worry, fear, as well as 'pleasure', into that one word "disturbance". Why do we 'accept' any of it, when we see that it can only occur when there is an image of self? And when we have understood that any action to quiet the 'disturbance' is only more disturbance?... The "Gift" lies there, doesn't it, in the state of 'not-knowing'?

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Fri, 08 Mar 2019 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4957 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

That may be logically, but when we suffer, we hurt, we cringe, we cry etc.,

Is there not such a thing as conscious suffering? Suffering "deliberately taken on" (there may be objections to that phrase)? Suffering not escaped from, because it seen as part of life, as is joy, pleasure, etc?

Dan McDermott wrote:
The "Gift" lies there, doesn't it, in the state of 'not-knowing'?

Psychologically, would you say that 'knowledge', and 'illusion', are the same thing, Dan? Feeling at the moment that it is so. And then yes, not-knowing, which is freedom from knowing, from self-image, is the gift that is always 'available' ...... not, better use the word 'possible', perhaps.

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Fri, 08 Mar 2019 #5
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1199 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Psychologically, would you say that 'knowledge', and 'illusion', are the same thing?

Yes in the sense that what is 'built' by the psychological 'known' is an illusory structure. The accumulation, attachments, beliefs construct a 'wall' of false security which then leads to defense when it feels it is being threatened...it is a recipe for conflict and suffering and the "Gift" is the "possible" seeing through the ignorance of it.

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Sat, 09 Mar 2019 #6
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That may be logically, but when we suffer, we hurt, we cringe, we cry etc., "illusion" or not...I think Mina has put all that psychological suffering and pain, anguish, worry, fear, as well as 'pleasure', into that one word "disturbance". Why do we 'accept' any of it, when we see that it can only occur when there is an image of self? And when we have understood that any action to quiet the 'disturbance' is only more disturbance?... The "Gift" lies there, doesn't it, in the state of 'not-knowing'?

Mina: dear Dan, right, have used the word 'disturbance' describing any possible expression/reaction coming from self-image/mind.

Yes, the Gift that is talked of, lies in the 'not-knowing', 'not-reacting', 'not-minding', in the silence of the dualistic mind...

You described the quality of listening in this silence, and AS this silence, in another thread recently. It was a beautiful post. :-)

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Sat, 09 Mar 2019 #7
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 253 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Psychologically, would you say that 'knowledge', and 'illusion', are the same thing, Dan? Feeling at the moment that it is so. And then yes, not-knowing, which is freedom from knowing, from self-image, is the gift that is always 'available' .....

Mina: Yes, psychological knowledge (all that is accumulated around an experience of a separate self) is based on a delusion, illusion, so the same. (sorry I replied to a question posed to Dan, but in Oneness, this is no big deal at all :-)

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Sat, 09 Mar 2019 #8
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Yes in the sense that what is 'built' by the psychological 'known' is an illusory structure. The accumulation, attachments, beliefs construct a 'wall' of false security which then leads to defense when it feels it is being threatened...it is a recipe for conflict and suffering and the "Gift" is the "possible" seeing through the ignorance of it.

Mina: How wonderfully put and true! Thank you!

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Sat, 09 Mar 2019 #9
Thumb_open-uri20180717-8420-135f99u-0 Mina Martini Finland 253 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The accumulation, attachments, beliefs construct a 'wall' of false security which then leads to defense when it feels it is being threatened...it is a recipe for conflict and suffering and the "Gift" is the "possible" seeing through the ignorance of it.

Mina: And in the 'seeing through' (and NOT in seeing 'something else', which means that thought/duality is not in action, but seeing with the eyes of innocence, of not knowing, of no separation from what is looked) lies the 'antidote' (the word Clive used in his first reply) to all suffering.

(-I would not personally use the word 'antidote', because the seeing through is not anti-anything, not duality/thought. But as the word is not the thing, it does not matter.)

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