Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 #181
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
And as I see it, thought/time has no place in the psychological realm.

What would be "the psychological realm" without thought/time?

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 #182
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1389 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
What would be "the psychological realm" without thought/time?

Empty?

This may be all wrong of course

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 #183
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
That "I Will" implies the action of ...well, will, does it not? And it implies that i have some degree of control over the future. I would like to question that. Do I really have any control over the mind?

This is a very interesting post, Clive. Am ‘I’ separate from the mind? You pose an important question here. I DO like to be in control, and this is obviously an action of the ‘me’ which I say I want to look at....observe. But it’s all me....every action I take is more of the same effort to achieve or control. Which leaves what? Only total inaction, as I see it. All else is an action of ‘me’....even the desire to understand is a desire to have some control....some desired outcome. Only in silence is it possible for ‘me’ to end. And I can’t seek silence...only understand the tricks I am playing on myself by dividing from myself....as controller separate from controlled. I want to look into this further but I have to start dinner. Back later, time permitting.

Let it Be

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 #184
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
This is a very interesting post, Clive.

As I have often pointed out, including to myself, I cannot even determine what my next thought will be. And this seems eternally true. So what does it mean, to say "I will" do something, psychologically?

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Wed, 19 Dec 2018 #185
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Empty?

By "empty" do you mean "non-existent"?

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #186
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Tom Paine wrote:

This is a very interesting post, Clive.

C: As I have often pointed out, including to myself, I cannot even determine what my next thought will be.

T: Of course, because I am only another thought.

So what does it mean, to say "I will" do something, psychologically?

Isn’t it meaningless? What we call ‘wishful thinking’. “I will conquer my fear or overcome my anger.” It’s easier to stop smoking or drinking. At least that can be accomplished with will power. Or can it? I once stopped smoking and have never taken up the habit again. But were my thoughts, and determination to stop, MY doing? Or did they occur without anyone ...any self....doing the thinking or willing?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 20 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #187
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 840 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Wim asks if WE should not be able to master thinking. When we are concerned with practical skills, it makes sense to talk of MY mastering of them. But what is the entity, if it is an entity at all, who could master thinking? Presumably this has to be a force, if I can use that word, OUTSIDE of the thinking process? If it is part of the thought, then is that not just a trick thought is playing on itself?

I've looked into this very deeply and seriously and didn't found anything to answer this, but this morning woke up with this seemingly answer:

When born I was helpless, mastered walking, talking and thinking.
All activities of moving matter and experiencing with the help of the brain. What was the force behind those activities, was that the force of living, intelligence, truth or thought ? It goes with experimenting the right and wrong doing of the muscles and in a certain sense is thinking not very different from walking, talking but with thinking we make the wrong idea that it is already working right and that is the force to get it out of its place into the psyche instead of only in the world of matter !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #188
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1389 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
It goes with experimenting the right and wrong doing of the muscles and in a certain sense is thinking not very different from walking, talking but with thinking we make the wrong idea that it is already working right and that is the force to get it out of its place into the psyche instead of only in the world of matter !

It seems to me Wim that you have struck a very rich 'vein' and hopefully with others here who are interested, we can 'mine' it a bit together.

Unlike the 'moving' (muscle) processes which receive a degree of 'training' when we are young, the 'thinking' process gets little or no intelligent attention. It just 'happens' any which way. 'Things' are picked up along the way from parents, teachers, siblings, friends, books, etc. but little or no care as to what is being learned and what the future effects of that learning might bring. Or of what 'thinking' will result as a result of those accumulations. For me personally this morning, it occurred that if there is this 'state of mind' that K. has called love, or compassion, or wisdom...what is it that keeps this brain from 'living' there? One answer that arose was that the brain is basically selfish, and ignorant and that its primary interest is in its own survival. And it can be totally blind in its pursuit of survival when it comes to the effect that this survival instinct can or might have on others and the physical world. And the adoption of an 'ideal', any ideal, limits, narrows and cuts off the brain from the experiencing of what may be another reality. This is a 'fault' of the brain that can only be corrected by seeing itself that it has taken a 'wrong turn'. It has to learn as the child does, in walking, talking and eating, etc, to correct its mistakes, to see what 'works'and what doesn't. No such thing happens with 'thought', it seems. It picks up ideals like nazism, nationalism, racism, greed,etc. and accepts blindly the 'sense' of security and safety those evils give it. It reminds one of the rats in the lab experiment being introduced to the choice between cocaine and food and how the sensation of the cocaine led them to avoid the healthy food altogether and eventually starve to death...I think that you have hit upon something very important here Wim with regard to our discussion about the 'necessity' of experimentation as regards the process of thinking.

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 20 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #189
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
When born I was helpless, mastered walking, talking and thinking.
All activities of moving matter and experiencing with the help of the brain. What was the force behind those activities, was that the force of living, intelligence, truth or thought ? It goes with experimenting the right and wrong doing of the muscles and in a certain sense is thinking not very different from walking,

With walking, I think we’re not very different than the ‘lower’ animals, in that it’s a matter of instinct like the baby bird learns to fly and the baby colt stands up and learns to walk and run. Forming images in the brain from memory and making words may be the same. I’m no expert here, that’s for certain. Now how the ‘me’ image is formed and how it creates a psychological space for itself in time is a much more complex....and for me, difficult...issue. Thought has taken a ‘wrong turn’ according to K into this world of me vs you and right vs wrong, etc. What is the ‘force’ to master thinking, and understand its right place? I think that was the question Clive took up. And must it not necessarily be a force that’s outside of thought? Going to look further into this before attempting to say anything further. Busy with work for my job at the moment.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 20 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #190
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: It picks up ideals like nazism, nationalism, racism, greed,etc. and accepts blindly the 'sense' of security and safety those evils give it.

Tom: Right, we’ve moved from forming practical images of the tree to make shelter from its branches...or the egg to make our breakfast...the frying pan and the tooth brush, etc. we’ve moved from that into the ‘wrong turn’ of making images of the Jew or the Black oe White, images of God and the devil, right vs wrong, me vs you, ideals, etc. If we’ve read K we see the danger in this, yet we can’t seem to find a way out....a way to undo the wrong turn.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 20 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #191
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1389 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If we’ve read K we see the danger in this, yet we can’t seem to find a way out....a way to undo the wrong turn.

It may be though that many who have read of the dangers of taking on these 'ideals', beliefs, etc. have seen the danger of them and have avoided or discarded them the way a child outgrows a toy. But the question remains, doesn't it: can there come an end to the seeking of any ideals as a form of security? To be as "nothing" (not-a-thing) as K. put it somewhere?... What need of psychological security does "nothing" have? What 'defense' or 'adornments' does "nothing" need?

This may be all wrong of course

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Thu, 20 Dec 2018 #192
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 840 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan,

Is the brain activity for learning to walk based on thought, I don't see that, neither is it copying the brain must learn it by itself.
The brain activity of talking seems to be already based on repetition and training from the outside world, so remembering is involved but thought is not leading, the child is still very curious about its surroundings to observe new things.

Every recognition is enthusiastic welcomed by the educators en there the programming of the brain is started.

The struggle to survive is present from the beginning, cry for food or pain, it seems to be in the hardware of the brain and this urge for survival is only based on its own body c.q. matter.

So where is the stimulus to think ?

I'll stop here for a while but much more is involved !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #193
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Am ‘I’ separate from the mind?

No, obviously we are not separate from the mind. But the mind is deeply conditioned to behave as if it is.

We can see this fact intellectually, and carry on - carry on with the illusion of separation, or we can feel it deeply, intensely. We see that we cannot correct this movement, because to correct implies a correct-er and the corrected, which is more of the same movement. If we 'accept it', as inevitable, we are accepting continuing to live in falseness.

It seems to me the implications of seeing that I am not separate from the mind, that the thinker is not separate from thought, are enormous. All action, all will, all becoming, is based on the assumption that I am separate from the mind, and so I can act on that mind, improve it, maybe even transform it. So suddenly all such movement is seen as false, and so impossible.

What does one do? The very question is seen as false.Yet the mind cries out to do something. It demands action, but what we have called action up to now we see has been false. Does true action, free of this duality, imply spontaneity?

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #194
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
When born I was helpless, mastered walking, talking and thinking.

I would rather say that the brain mastered language, rather than thinking. I am not denying that thought IS language, but it seems wrong to make the statement that I am the master of thinking. More accurate to say thinking is the master of me, in that thought creates me.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #195
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Things' are picked up along the way from parents, teachers, siblings, friends, books, etc. but little or no care as to what is being learned and what the future effects of that learning might bring.

This is certainly correct, Dan. Although I might add, after a very disturbing conversation with a friend-parent today, there are many forces at work deliberately trying to influence children, subtly or not subtly control their behaviour, through Youtube and social media, etc. And using the children toinfluence the behaviour of their parents.

In education children are taught what to think, but not how to think. Taught to conform, to be selfish, to strive for personal and group success, to fear. I don't know why most parents and teachers take this task on so willingly, passing on tradition without any question - including the tradition of having ideals. As you say, Dan, it is mostly unconscious.

One further point. The dominant factor with the conditioning of children - what makes the task easy - is their desire to conform, to belong, not to stand out in the crowd. The origins of this impulse may well be biological.

But we have to go beyond our animal instincts, otherwise we are going to destroy ourselves.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #196
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What is the ‘force’ to master thinking, and understand its right place? I think that was the question Clive took up.

K talks a lot about "the awakening of Intelligence". What is this Intelligence? Is it a force outside of thought? And just how is it awakened?

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #197
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 840 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I would rather say that the brain mastered language, rather than thinking. I am not denying that thought IS language, but it seems wrong to make the statement that I am the master of thinking.

.

Clive Elwell wrote:
In education children are taught what to think, but not how to think.

this seems to me contradictory.

*By stating "but it seems wrong to make the statement that I am the master of thinking."
are you not saying that thought is the master of thinking ?
I presumed we are not yet capable of mastering the thinking process, we seem not being able to distinguish the difference between the brain, thought and thinking process, we are under the assumption that we see it rightly, but is this so?
we distinguish them without noticing the different working !
That's what Bohm tried to convey with his 'proprioception' , we feel direct the difference between our touching ourselves or that from others but don't do that in our thinking process.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 21 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #198
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
All action, all will, all becoming, is based on the assumption that I am separate from the mind, and so I can act on that mind, improve it, maybe even transform it. So suddenly all such movement is seen as false, and so impossible.

What does one do? The very question is seen as false.Yet the mind cries out to do something. It demands action, but what we have called action up to now we see has been false. Does true action, free of this duality, imply spontaneity?

I think ‘true action’ implies action/seeing as one process. Which starts with inaction, or rather, seeing the falseness of action conforming to thought. Then there is seeing and acting not separate anymore. I don’t know if I’ve expressed this well. It’s not something one can understand intellectually, however. I think I do live it at times, then ‘me’ takes center stage again, usually in a time of great conflict or confusion. There’s been tremendous conflict lately attempting to ‘come to terms’ with the insanity inherent in American society (well for most of my life actually)....the values, beliefs, ideals, that have created the social ‘order’, which is total DIS-order. I realize that this ‘coming to terms’ itself is the divided/fragmented action of thinker separate from thought...observer from observed...that we’ve been discussing.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 21 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #199
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 733 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote at 175:
Indeed they do "move and morph endlessly". Why is this? And does it happen through a process of 'me' continually reacting to thought/feeling? But this is actually a guise - a disguise of thought reacting to thought.


Clive Elwell wrote at 175:
So what is this whole that is being disregarded? Is the whole the actual process of moving and morphing endlessly? Or is the whole more than that? And if it IS more than that,how is the fragmented mind to see it?

As to “why” it happens, I can’t be sure but I see it as simply due to CONDITIONING. Mind and body as a whole are capable of being molded and - no matter what the circumstances of birth - ARE molded from birth. As I see it, this “molding” or conditioning is not a problem in itself. It is observed that mind/body has the propensity to be molded or conditioned. So, having this natural propensity - like the propensity to walk and talk - the human being therefore has the NEED to be molded. If not for this natural propensity, ability and need, we would remain helpless infants and surely die. Mind/body MUST be molded so that we can function, act, behave - learn to walk, eat, get dressed, measure, make or get clothing and shelter, grow or hunt and prepare food, dress ourselves, tie our shoelaces, keep ourselves clean, and so on - in accordance with one’s culture and circumstances.

The knowledge and conditioning necessary to carry out these activities are passed on from generation to generation. Nothing revolutionary in saying THAT.

As I see it, TIME - the concept and the image - is a part of the necessary conditioning. To successfully hunt, grow food, find water, make clothing and shelter, and so on, time is necessary - both the passage of time which does NOT leave a trace, and time which IS the trace of memory. As I see it.

The “wrong turn” is taken by every human being whenever he or she accepts the trace or stream of remembered time, conditioning, consciousness, self, tradition, official and unofficial history, as fundamental, inarguable, unchallengeable Truth or fact. As I see it (you can of course argue or challenge it!), the fact is that we do not fully AND CANNOT fully understand what life is fundamentally, who and what we fundamentally are, what time, love, relationship and beauty are, what is the fundamental meaning and significance of it all, what Truth is, and so on. No matter what we discover, there is still the unknown which cannot be known. We can understand fragments of the whole, but we do not and cannot understand the whole. The mind is limited; the whole is not. Whether as prehistoric Man (which includes Woman), historical Man in any epoch, circumstances or geographical location, and so on, each man and woman is a stranger in a strange land. No effort of the mind can pierce the ultimate mystery of life, the mystery of meaning.

And still, the discontent and questioning make themselves felt and there is a lot we CAN understand about the workings of the human mind. Through observation, we can discover our abilities and limitations. Don’t those discoveries alone have a calming, freeing, simplifying effect on the human being? With self-understanding, there is the ending of struggles and efforts to achieve, to understand, to overcome, to hide, to convince, to become, to conform, and so on. There is clarity in that, isn’t there? Clarity because I no longer struggle to GET clarity, and I no longer struggle to get clarity because I understand my limitations and abilities in this field. There is also simplicity in action and relationship because action is no longer determined by choice and struggle.

Is this the beginning of order? Or is this delusion?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 21 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #200
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1389 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
the fact is that we do not fully AND CANNOT fully understand what life is fundamentally, who and what we fundamentally are, what time, love, relationship and beauty are, what is the fundamental meaning and significance of it all, what Truth is, and so on. No matter what we discover, there is still the unknown which cannot be known. We can understand fragments of the whole, but we do not and cannot understand the whole.

Because the physical body, the flesh and blood is always subject to pain, suffering and ultimately death, there will always be a form, perhaps very hidden, of 'discontent'. We are not 'gods' and there is a feeling that 'we' have been cheated in being 'attached' to this fragile, impermanent body...but as you say, I think, it is with that discontent that much can be discovered about ourselves, about 'attachment', about fear, thought/time, loneliness, etc. We can understand that the thinker and thought are one. We can understand that linear time carried into the realm of the psyche without being questioned, as if there was a past future and present that thought could move back and forth in, recalling past experiences and imagining future ones...and being blind to the 'now' that is,..that that process would not be a source of sorrow..

Along with this it occurs to me that also picked up somewhere along the line is this age old idea of 'enlightenment'. A big bang in the brain where everything becomes clear-the mystery of life solved...just another myth? Just another reason to hope for a phony 'future'?

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 21 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #201
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote #190 :
If we’ve read K we see the danger in this, yet we can’t seem to find a way out....a way to undo the wrong turn.

Isn't this because all our attempts to find a way out of the wrong turn start by being contaminated by having taken a wrong turn? I don't know if that question makes sense? It is the conditioned mind that attempts to solve the problem of conditioning, and this simply is not possible.

It seems to me, from my observations, that all attempts to solve the problems thought has created, to overcome our pain, our conflict, to sort out our confusion, invariably consist of thought presenting an ideal. Can an ideal solve anything? Surely not.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2018 #202
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There’s been tremendous conflict lately attempting to ‘come to terms’ with the insanity inherent in American society (well for most of my life actually)....the values, beliefs, ideals, that have created the social ‘order’, which is total DIS-order

Tom, the insanity inherent in society is not peculiar to the USA, I can assure you. There isn't much point in pursuing comparative arguments about degrees of insanity, but I wonder what "coming to terms" with insanity would mean? Of course to read about the tremendous violence and injustice, inequality, lack of caring is very disturbing - but shouldn't it be disturbing? We would be very insensitive indeed if we did not get disturbed by what is going on.

I don't know if you want to pursue this, Tom, or anyone, but if so maybe start a new thread?

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #203
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote #190 :

If we’ve read K we see the danger in this, yet we can’t seem to find a way out....a way to undo the wrong turn.

Isn't this because all our attempts to find a way out of the wrong turn start by being contaminated by having taken a wrong turn? I don't know if that question makes sense?

Yes, makes perfect sense to me.

Let it Be

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #204
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I wonder what "coming to terms" with insanity would mean?

I apologize, Clive. I didn't choose my words correctly. I meant something else. I meant that I have to find a way to live in a society (yes, the U.S. is probably no more corrupt than most) that is so corrupt that it just doesn't work a good deal of the time for many of us. I'm talking about basic services that my wife and I need just to get buy. Or sending in a fax of a prescription for medical supplies and never getting a delivery because they claim they never got the fax....4 times! It was sent 4 different times by the physicians office, yet they claim they never received it. Well they get thousands of faxes a day and they obviously lost it....4 different times they lost the fax the physicians office sent. And each time I called to inquire about our order they put me on a long hold time and then say, 'we didn't ship the supplies because we never got the fax'! Infuriating. Moreover it's the only medical supply company my wife's insurance currently works with. This went on for over 3 weeks until they finally received the fax that the nurse sent the fifth time. This is only one example of the kind of thing we deal with all the time. These kind of services are often close to unworkable. Even getting the proper care my wife needs for her disability....getting public transportation for my wife who is wheelchair bound, etc. It seems that since Trump took office things like this in the service sector have gotten even worse. And they were often functioning pretty badly previous to Trump.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 22 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #205
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

As to “why” it happens, I can’t be sure but I see it as simply due to CONDITIONING.

Clive: But surely there is intrinsic movement, a process of endless change that permeates the whole universe, and the whole of consciousness, universal and individual? Surely this is beyond the realm of conditioning?

Mind and body as a whole are capable of being molded and - no matter what the circumstances of birth - ARE molded from birth.

Clive: Yes, and this is true for all life forms, is it not? Not peculiar to human beings. It is necessary for bioological survival.

As I see it, this “molding” or conditioning is not a problem in itself. It is observed that mind/body has the propensity to be molded or conditioned. So, having this natural propensity - like the propensity to walk and talk - the human being therefore has the NEED to be molded. If not for this natural propensity, ability and need, we would remain helpless infants and surely die. Mind/body MUST be molded so that we can function, act, behave - learn to walk, eat, get dressed, measure, make or get clothing and shelter, grow or hunt and prepare food, dress ourselves, tie our shoelaces, keep ourselves clean, and so on - in accordance with one’s culture and circumstances.
The knowledge and conditioning necessary to carry out these activities are passed on from generation to generation. Nothing revolutionary in saying THAT.

Clive: Do you mean passed on in some sort of genetical way, or passed on by the deliberate teaching of one generation to the next generation? This teaching would include the process of imitation that seems to occur naturally.
Certainly the brain must have knowledge, and knowledge is a sort of conditioning. But do we not need to distinguish between knowledge of the physical, technical knowledge, and psychological knowledge?

As I see it, TIME - the concept and the image - is a part of the necessary conditioning. To successfully hunt, grow food, find water, make clothing and shelter, and so on, time is necessary - both the passage of time which does NOT leave a trace, and time which IS the trace of memory. As I see it.

Clive: Can you explain what you mean by “time which does not leave a trace”? Autumn leaves a trace in the dead leaves on the ground. A body dying in the wilderness leaves a trace through the increased fertility of the soil.

The “wrong turn” is taken by every human being whenever he or she accepts the trace or stream of remembered time, conditioning, consciousness, self, tradition, official and unofficial history, as fundamental, inarguable, unchallengeable Truth or fact. As I see it (you can of course argue or challenge it!),

Clive: Yes, I see what you mean. Another way of saying putting thought in the wrong place, no?

the fact is that we do not fully AND CANNOT fully understand what life is fundamentally, who and what we fundamentally are, what time, love, relationship and beauty are, what is the fundamental meaning and significance of it all, what Truth is, and so on.

Clive: when you say we cannot fully understand, the question arises for me, what is the meaning of “understanding”? Does it mean to have knowledge, or to create knowledge about ….. what was previously the unknown? Is it being able to describe something? Or is understanding more subtle that that? Does it mean to see how things are connected – this seeing being more than a verbal description of a process?

No matter what we discover, there is still the unknown which cannot be known. We can understand fragments of the whole, but we do not and cannot understand the whole. The mind is limited; the whole is not. Whether as prehistoric Man (which includes Woman), historical Man in any epoch, circumstances or geographical location, and so on, each man and woman is a stranger in a strange land. No effort of the mind can pierce the ultimate mystery of life, the mystery of meaning.

Clive: This seems correct to me.

And still, the discontent and questioning make themselves felt and there is a lot we CAN understand about the workings of the human mind. Through observation, we can discover our abilities and limitations. Don’t those discoveries alone have a calming, freeing, simplifying effect on the human being? With self-understanding, there is the ending of struggles and efforts to achieve, to understand, to overcome, to hide, to convince, to become, to conform, and so on. There is clarity in that, isn’t there? Clarity because I no longer struggle to GET clarity, and I no longer struggle to get clarity because I understand my limitations and abilities in this field. There is also simplicity in action and relationship because action is no longer determined by choice and struggle.
Is this the beginning of order? Or is this delusion?

Clive: Certainly to see the limitations of thought, is clarifying. Then thought, at least for the moment, ceases to try to operate where it actually cannot, as you describe, and this can rightly be described as order. But no matter the nature of conditioning, physical or psychological, if the brain is constantly reacting according its conditioning, then it can never discover anything new, can it?

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #206
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 840 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There is clarity in that, isn’t there? Clarity because I no longer struggle to GET clarity, and I no longer struggle to get clarity because I understand my limitations and abilities in this field. There is also simplicity in action and relationship because action is no longer determined by choice and struggle.

Is this the beginning of order? Or is this delusion?

Hi Huguette, thanks for the description.

To start with the endline. Clarity is order and 'beginning' suggest the introduction of time. Time is needed to molded insight which is clarity and as such observable in the live of Krishnaji , or is this a hallucination ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #207
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 733 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Wim,

As I see it, the word “beginning” CAN refer to a movement in psychological time but it can also refer to the eternal movement of life. In this eternal movement which is without measure, without beginning and without end, there are beginnings and endings: the baby bird starting to come out of its shell; the human baby beginning its descent through the birth canal; a man on his deathbed - death coming; a new day dawning - beginning; dusk falling - night beginning; flood waters beginning to recede; and so on. THESE beginnings and endings within the eternal movement of life are not started or ended by the mind, as I see it. They are beyond the field of thought. THESE beginnings are not movements of the mind but they can be observed.

Clarity cannot be started through the mind’s efforts but it can be observed, as I see it. I understand your point about “beginning”, but I don’t see that the word “beginning” necessarily suggests the introduction of psychological time. There is no desire or effort to reach clarity but the observation of the dawning of clarity.

So when I say, “there is now some clarity where there was NO clarity”, it can be an observation of a fact .... or a delusion!

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 22 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #208
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1389 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The “wrong turn” is taken by every human being whenever he or she accepts the trace or stream of remembered time, conditioning, consciousness, self, tradition, official and unofficial history, as fundamental, inarguable, unchallengeable Truth or fact. As I see it (you can of course argue or challenge it!), the fact is that we do not fully AND CANNOT fully understand what life is fundamentally, who and what we fundamentally are, what time, love, relationship and beauty are, what is the fundamental meaning and significance of it all, what Truth is, and so on. No matter what we discover, there is still the unknown which cannot be known. We can understand fragments of the whole, but we do not and cannot understand the whole. The mind is limited; the whole is not. Whether as prehistoric Man (which includes Woman), historical Man in any epoch, circumstances or geographical location, and so on, each man and woman is a stranger in a strange land. No effort of the mind can pierce the ultimate mystery of life, the mystery of meaning.

I had an insight today that involves this term "wrong turn" and would welcome other's views on this. It occurred to me that another way to describe this 'wrong turning' is as a 'looking up'. That Man at some point in our evolution 'conceived' the idea of the 'higher'. Something 'higher' that could explain this seeming 'gulf' between ourselves and the rest of nature around us. An explanation for why we seem to operate on such a 'superior' plane than the insects, animals etc? Thought conceived an answer to account for it, something that was not visible to our senses, but nevertheless was believed to be there, 'behind' it all, 'behind' us...What was conceived (projected) was a 'creator'. A God (or Gods). That dwelt on a 'higher plane' and that when this life for us ended the 'hope' arose that we might be able to return 'home' to our rightful 'place' in some kind of 'heaven...There have been lots of versions of this of course but at base of it all is the unfounded belief, that there is something behind all this..."it can't be just this everything eating everything else that goes on here". "There has to be a meaning to it all". "We are here for a purpose", etc.

But this is all a 'concoction' of thought, isn't it? A way for the thinking brain to 'make sense' out of our being this insecure "stranger in a strange land"? This is what Wim said about 'thought' not questioning itself that struck me. Thought carried forth this idea (unquestioned) of the 'higher' or 'creator' because to thought it seemed a logical assumption: "something has to be behind (above) all this, doesn't it?"...

But does it? Or is all that projection just the result of our insecurity and fear? Was that 'looking up' the wrong turn (and the subsequent 'searching for the truth of it) that has been responsible for our history of sorrow and bloodshed down through the ages?

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 22 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #209
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2712 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: Or is all that projection just the result of our insecurity and fear? Was that 'looking up' the wrong turn (and the subsequent 'searching for the truth of it) that has been responsible for our history of sorrow and bloodshed down through the ages?

I don’t know Dan. I suspect it’s just another example of thought operating in an area where it has no place. And of operating in the ‘false’ field of time. Of thought not realizing that no matter what it does, it’s limited.
And to try to reach the Unlimited is an absurdity for the limited thinker/thought

Dan: But this is all a 'concoction' of thought, isn't it?

What else?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 22 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 22 Dec 2018 #210
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5200 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Along with this it occurs to me that also picked up somewhere along the line is this age old idea of 'enlightenment'. A big bang in the brain where everything becomes clear-the mystery of life solved...just another myth? Just another reason to hope for a phony 'future'?

I don't know. Did K ever talk about such a possibility? It seems to me it is more a matter of a stream of "small" realisations or insights.

I have read of such big bangs in the brain in individuals. If one accepts the truth of them, it seems they were spontaneous, or perhaps the result of some shock. But never the result of volition, effort. One thing seems clear, to form an image of the possibility of such an event, to wait for it to happen, to expect it, is destructive.

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