Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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All one inquiry


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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 #121
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Do you see it that social action must always bring further corruption, Clive?

I don't know about "further corruption", the corruption is already there, isn't it, in the human mind? It seems it always has been.

If I see suffering on on the news, people displaced for some reason, and without food or shelter, and I feel moved to donate some money, I don't see anything wrong with that.(Unless I feel by my actions I have discharged my responsibility to the whole human situation). And the people who work to ensure that donation reaches them, and organise the supply of food, water, shelter, nothing on the face of it wrong with that, if it is their heart that motivates them. (But one reads increasingly of aid-workers and 'peace-keepers' getting up to mischief).

But I do not see that this action has produced "a better society", the same underlying evils (ie human nature) are still at work, and their will be more displacement of people, more violence, more exploitation, more of .... the same.

As you say, certain laws have been passed, (by the way, I do not want to pick on American society), and at least black people are no longer being lynched, and the like. But racism is by no means dead, and judging from a documentary I watched yesterday, the 'extreme right' movement is on the rise in America and Europe, with its utter lack of compassion towards 'other groups', the celebration of violence. I do not see that any changes in the law will meet such problems.

I have read somewhat of the communist revolution in China, under Mao. The principles of communism sound fine, with its emphasis on equality, fairness, empowering people to run their own lives. But the revolution (so-called) was a disaster, resulting in the death of millions, including through famine. A system of extreme privilege was built into the communist party bureaucracy. People used the guise of ideology to revenge themselves on their neighbours. I believe it was the same with the French revolution, the period in France known as "the Terror".

The point is, I think, different systems of government in no way change human nature. No matter what changes were introduced on the surface, people carried with their innate ways, their power-seeking, with their violence, their greed, ruthlessness. I think history shows us fundamental human nature has never been changed, not by social change, by Religion, by politics, whatever. Add the Russian revolution to the Chinese and the French, and it seems they only made things worse. Although there were, no doubt, well-intentioned, sincere individuals. People blindly following an ideology/belief may be very sincere.

Do you accept this Tom, or not? I am not quite sure what the question is.

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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 #122
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti on 'the permanent self' in 1937

Conflict invariably must arise when there is a static centre within one, and about one there are changing values. This static centre must be in battle with the living quality of life.

Change implies that there is nothing permanent to which the mind can attach itself, but it constantly desires to cling to some form of security. The form of attachment is undergoing a constant change, and this change is considered progress, but attachment still continues.

Now this change implies that there can be no personal centre which is accumulating, storing up memories, as safeguards and virtues; no centre which is constantly gathering to itself experiences, lessons for the future. Though intellectually we may grasp this, emotionally each one clings to a personal, static centre, identifying himself with it. In reality there is no centre as the "I" with its permanent qualities. We must understand this integrally, not merely intellectually, if we are to alter fundamentally our relationship with our neighbour, which is based on ignorance, fear, wants.

Now do we, each one of us, think that this centre, from which most of our action takes place, do we think that this centre is impermanent?

The start of talk 2 at the Ommen camp in 1937

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1936-1944-the-mirror-of-relationship/krishnamurti-the-mirror-of-relationship-27

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #123
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: The point is, I think, different systems of government in no way change human nature.

Tom: Yes, I think I can accept that as a fact. My question was about social improvements, and there seem to have been many since the days of Dickens’ London. Or the days of the Jim Crow laws in the southern states in the U.S. I had some good friends who devoted their lives to bringing social change. They felt that bringing about a more fair and just society would actually bring about ‘better’ human beings. One of my friends worked for a time with Ralph Nader who worked tirelessly, and seemingly selflessly, to make a more just society. He ran for president against Bush and Gore. The election was extremely close and some say that votes cast for Nader swung the election in Bush.’s favor. If Nader had conceded (he had zero chance of winning) Gore would likely have become President rather than Bush, and perhaps there would never have been the invasion of Iraq with hundreds of thousands of lost lives. I wrote at the time that idealism has its price...or something to that effect, being very disgusted at the time with Nader for not dropping out. I suppose I still haven’t fully resolved the question about the value of social action. K was close to Indira Gandhi wasn’t he? I’m not sure if they discussed this issue or not.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 13 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #124
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 855 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
K was close to Indira Gandhi wasn’t he? I’m not sure if they discussed this issue or not.

Yes,they did Tom, there is a biography of Pupil Jayaker in which she mention it, one remark K. made was: 'what a pity that such a clear mind is lost in politics ' or something like that.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #125
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

K was close to Indira Gandhi wasn’t he? I’m not sure if they discussed this issue or not.

W: Yes,they did Tom, there is a biography of Pupil Jayaker in which she mention it, one remark K. made was: 'what a pity that such a clear mind is lost in politics ' or something like that.

T: Thanks, Wim. I won’t belabor this point further except to say that it’s been on my mind a lot as we’re dealing with a potential tyrant and dictator here in the U.S. now, who would begin removing protections for a free press if he could, and possibly arresting all those in government who present a threat to his power. We have the example of Nazi Germany as a dire warning. It seems to me that political/social action to try to point out his abuses and support those who are opposing him politically and in the courts and in the media is a necessity for all of us who value our first amendment freedoms here. Though I imagine K would point out the importance of understanding the tyrant/dictatator ‘within’ along with peaceful opposition to the dictator ‘without’.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 13 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #126
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

I think Wim's quote from K is very relevant:

"'what a pity that such a clear mind is lost in politics"

This morning I skimmed trhough the Guardian news web site - which is not essentially different from any news webite of course. A description of various conflicts, from the global to the local. A lot of anlyses from people how the problems should be solved. Opinions, arguments, explanations, all stemming from particular conditionings. They are all think that they have the answers.

And then there is the other stuff, the ideas about cooking, fashion, culture, entertainment - including a lot of sport of course.

And it will be the same tomorrow, and next week, next year, until the human race annihilates itself, becuase of its ignorance.

And these are the things that occupy people, are they not? the things that take up our time, our energy. How much energy is left over to investigate the real cause of human problems, which I suggest is thought itself, not the things that thought does? How much time goes into self inquiry? Into understanding the root of human conflict and violence?

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 13 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #127
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: How much energy is left over to investigate the real cause of human problems, which I suggest is thought itself, not the things that thought does? How much time goes into self inquiry? Into understanding the root of human conflict and violence?

Tom: How many would even look within? It’s so much easier to point the finger outwardly at the Republicans or Democrats. How many would consider this as a valid approach to resolving all the horrible misery in the world? To consider that it begins in ‘me’? Rhetorical questions. What matters is not what others do, but how I’ll begin to approach this total crisis.

Let it Be

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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 #128
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 855 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What matters is not what others do, but how I’ll begin to approach this total crisis.

This description suggest to me to be a good start:

"Self-knowledge is not an ultimate goal, it is not the ultimate end. Self-knowledge is knowing one's limitation from moment to moment, and therefore perceiving the truth from moment to moment. Truth which is continuous is not truth, because that which continues can never renew itself; but in ending, there is a renewal. So, a mind that is not aware of its own limitation can never experience truth; but if the mind is aware of its limitation without condemnation, without justification, if it is purely aware of its limitation, then you will find there comes a freedom from the limitation; and in that freedom, truth is realized. There is not "you' unified to truth:"you' can never find truth. `You' must cease for truth to come into being, because 'you' are the limitation. 
So, you must understand where you are limited, the extent of your limitation; you must be passively aware of it, and in that passivity truth comes into being.

New Delhi, India | 1st Public Talk 14th November, 1948

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #129
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 855 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How many would even look within? It’s so much easier to point the finger outwardly at the Republicans or Democrats. How many would consider this as a valid approach to resolving all the horrible misery in the world?
To consider that it begins in ‘me’? Rhetorical questions.

not that these are answers to your questions, but also consider that every fundamental change in humanity has started with one human being and according to K. only a few people - with a mind like him - could bring about an unprecedented transformation !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #130
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

K..."If you begin to experiment with yourself, you will see a curious transformation taking place. In the moment of highest confusion there is clarity; in the moment of greatest fear there is love. You must come to it spontaneously, without the exertion of will.

I suggest seriously that you experiment with what I have been saying and then you will begin to see in what manner habit destroys creative perception. But it is not a thing to be wished for and cultivated. There cannot be a groping after it."

Ommen Camp, Holland | 2nd Public Talk 6th August, 1938

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 14 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #131
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

What matters is not what others do, but how I’ll begin to approach this total crisis.

W: This description suggest to me to be a good start:

"Self-knowledge is not an ultimate goal, it is not the ultimate end. Self-knowledge is knowing one's limitation from moment to moment, and therefore perceiving the truth from moment to moment.” K.

That is an interesting excerpt, Wim. Thanks for posting. I don’t know that one person perceiving the truth will solve the global crisis, but I don’t see any other place to begin. So, how do I begin to understand the violence in me? I can’t stop the violence of my government or stop the violent crime in the city where I live. The total world crisis is a crisis of violence, isn’t it? If I want to end violence externally, I myself must be free of violence....otherwise, in my actions in the world, I’m just perpetuating violence. So I must understand myself who is violent. This is basic K 101, and we all have heard him make this point. Yet how many of us have understood the root of the problem in ourselves?

Let it Be

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #132
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 855 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yet how many of us have understood the root of the problem in ourselves?

speaking ONLY for myself, I can only say that not the quantity of others but the quality of my own pure action has my constant attention.

and of course you meet people who have their mouth full as if they understood it but that does not speak from their actions and sometimes even contradict themselves and yes, of course according to the extent to which I have understood it.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #133
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
So, how do I begin to understand the violence in me?

The way it is being seen here is through experimentation with staying in touch with physical sensation, breathing, what is being heard, and what is being seen, in the immediate present and then seeing that awareness disappearing, swept away by thought...thought 'interfering' (imposing itself) in the actual now and going back in time or forward through imagination. I haven't seen that the 'awareness' can be present alongside and illumine the 'content' of thought. The process of thought yes (that thinking is going on) but the content brings about or seems to need an identification (or waking 'sleep) for it to 'flow'and the 'awakening in the moment' is when there is awareness of the body and the senses and one's breathing, etc. Seen in this way, the 'self' with psychological time is a kind of 'violence' itself. It 'violates' the present moment as it is a fictional entity consisting of the past and not compatible(?) out of touch, with the immediate present. It can do 'good' acts when it reflects 'love' and bad acts when it reflects 'evil'. But as I see it, it is 'limited' as K says above and it will ultimately lead to conflict in the world because it maintains this false illusion of individuality. Do others see this in this way?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 14 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #134
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Yet how many of us have understood the root of the problem in ourselves?

Wim: speaking ONLY for myself, I can only say that not the quantity of others but the quality of my own pure action has my constant attention.

Tom: OK, we are back to ourself....and rightly so :) So we have only our own disorder, which is reflected outward in the world. We begin with ‘what is’ which is disorder. How does this “pure action” come into the picture when my actions and thoughts are confused and not ‘pure’? when there is conflict and no understanding?

Let it Be

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #135
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Though I imagine K would point out the importance of understanding the tyrant/dictatator ‘within’ along with peaceful opposition to the dictator ‘without’.

Has K ever talked about "peaceful opposition"? i would be interested to hear that.

Tom, there are two K books that I know of that deal specifically with the concept of 'social action'. One is called "Social Responsibility - from the talks and writings of J Krishnamurti" ISBN 81-87326-64-6
and "Individual and Society - a study book of the teachings of J Krishnamurti (published in America) ISBN 1-888004-02-9

Despite what I have said in posts above, I think, from what I have read, that K would encourage young people into socially useful occupations like teaching and social work. And he disapproved of other professions, like the army and lawyers.

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #136
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
but if the mind is aware of its limitation without condemnation, without justification, if it is purely aware of its limitation, then you will find there comes a freedom from the limitation

Yes, for me this is the issue, seeing the limitation without condemnation. Otherwise K's "passive awareness" is not passive.

I'm glad that we have returned to this issue of the limitation of thought, it is so fundamental.
At the moment, operating in the world, it is clear that thought does not see its limitations, it does not act that way. There is a sort of assumption that thought is truth, although that is obvioiusly false.

What do we mean by the word “limited”, when we say that thought is limited?

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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 #137
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K..."If you begin to experiment with yourself, you will see a curious transformation taking place. In the moment of highest confusion there is clarity; in the moment of greatest fear there is love. You must come to it spontaneously, without the exertion of will.

Dan, you are drawing attention to the QOTD, which is really quite incredible in its implications. I will copy the whole thing before it becomes the the QOYesterday?

"Do not practise discipline, follow
patterns and mere ideals, but be aware
of the process of forming habits. Be
conscious of the old grooves along
which the mind has run and also of the
desire to create new ones. Seriously
experiment with this; perhaps there
will be greater confusion and
suffering, for discipline, moral laws,
have merely acted to hold down the
hidden desires and purposes. When you
are aware integrally, with your whole
being, of this confusion and
suffering, without any hope of escape,
then there will arise spontaneously
that which is real. But you must love,
be enthused by that very confusion and
suffering. You must love with your own
heart, not with another's.

If you begin to experiment with
yourself, you will see a curious
transformation taking place. In the
moment of highest confusion there is
clarity; in the moment of greatest
fear there is love. You must come to
it spontaneously, without the exertion
of will.

I suggest seriously that you
experiment with what I have been
saying and then you will begin to see
in what manner habit destroys creative
perception. But it is not a thing to
be wished for and cultivated. There
cannot be a groping after it."

What an utterly different meaning of love is contained in these words:

"But you must love, be enthused by that very confusion and suffering."

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #138
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
What an utterly different meaning of love is contained in these words:

K."But you must love, be enthused by that very confusion and suffering."

Can we ever see 'confusion' and 'suffering' in the same way again?

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #139
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 855 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So we have only our own disorder, which is reflected outward in the world. We begin with ‘what is’ which is disorder. How does this “pure action” come into the picture when my actions and thoughts are confused and not ‘pure’? when there is conflict and no understanding?

Tom, why start with the conclusion ' we have only our own disorder ?'
WHAT Do we know ABOUT : ' what is ?' We don't know, do we !

Then the inquiry starts and rereading ' pure action ' I now see that 'purity of action' would have been a better expression . Purity allows gradations and pure is the expression of duality and this information is an expression of Love for inquiry !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #140
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
WHAT Do we know ABOUT : ' what is ?' We don't know, do we !

Right we don't. Good to point that out, Wim! We only have what we've been taught....the beliefs,ideals, opinions, all the labels, etc. that we've been brainwashed with...which has become the 'authority'...the should or should not. Along with our own memories/experiences. That's what we cling to and that may be the cause the duality which we call conflict....the observer/observed conflict....me trying to act on 'not me'. But in actuality there is only the unknown. Going to explore this further and may come back to it at some future time. Have to make some coffee and start some breakfast. Not sure I get your 'purity' and 'pure' distinction. Will look further at that later as well.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #141
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
K."If you begin to experiment with
yourself, you will see a curious
transformation taking place. In the
moment of highest confusion there is
clarity; in the moment of greatest
fear there is love."

What is the 'catalyst' that transforms the energies termed "highest confusion" and "greatest fear" into energies termed "clarity" and "love"? It is not the movement of thought, is it?

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #142
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
What is the 'catalyst' that transforms the energies termed "highest confusion" and "greatest fear" into energies termed "clarity" and "love"? It is not the movement of thought, is it?

I don't see that it can be Dan.(hope you don't mind me jumping in). Can thought ever bring clarity? Can thought which is always divided from what is, bring understanding of what is? Thought is what creates the confused 'me' who is afraid and is trying to operate on the fear....to get rid of the fear and confusion,isn't it? Just questioning...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #143
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
hope you don't mind me jumping in

Of course not.

Tom Paine wrote:
Can thought ever bring clarity? Thought is what creates the confused 'me' who is afraid and is trying to operate on the fear....to get rid of the fear and confusion,isn't it?

It becomes clearer and clearer k.'s statement that "thought IS fear". So If limited thought is not the 'catalyst' that transforms confusion and fear, is it the non-movement of thought that brings about the change? The 'staying with' and not escaping or not substituting an opposite, or "terming" the 'confusion' and 'fear' as it arises? It is the same 'energy' but if it is not acted upon or reacted to by thought, the 'fear' aspect and the 'confusion' aspect do not continue? They, according to K., give way to "love" and "clarity".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #144
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2813 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: So If limited thought is not the 'catalyst' that transforms confusion and fear, is it the non-movement of thought that brings about the change?

As long as we’re looking for something to transform fear, we’re resisting what is, and there is no love of ‘what is’. “ you must come to it spontaneously, without the exertion of will.”(K) Of course this is something ‘I’ can’t do, since I only know the action of will.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #145
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

K."But you must love, be enthused by that very confusion and suffering."

Can we ever see 'confusion' and 'suffering' in the same way again?

I looked up the word "enthused", which is obviously the adjective from the abstract noun "enthusiasm". It seemed to me there is something rather superficial about enthusiasm, some sensation of excitement which quickly fades.

But the root meaning of the noun enthusiasm "comes from the Greek word enthousiasmos, from enthous, meaning “possessed by a god, inspired.”

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #146
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So If limited thought is not the 'catalyst' that transforms confusion and fear, is it the non-movement of thought that brings about the change? The 'staying with' and not escaping or not substituting an opposite, or "terming" the 'confusion' and 'fear' as it arises? It is the same 'energy' but if it is not acted upon or reacted to by thought, the 'fear' aspect and the 'confusion' aspect do not continue? They, according to K., give way to "love" and "clarity".

This is very fascinating.What do you mean, Dan, by "it is the same energy"?

I am looking hard at what Dan says. There seems to be two possibilities with this non interference of thought - although perhaps I should not divide them, as in essence they may be one. There is the 'not escaping, not moving away from confusion or fear (or presumably any state that is traditionally classified as 'negative'. And there is not naming, not terming the states. Yes, both of these "non-movements" imply the non-interference of thought, thought not continuing.

So why should this non-movement, non reaction if we can call it that, have such power of transformation? After all, we are talking about something which fundamentally does not exist. But it does differ from the normal state, which is the state of thought continuing, thought reacting.

This feels like something that needs going into deeply.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #147
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
As long as we’re looking for something to transform fear, we’re resisting what is, and there is no love of ‘what is’.

Yes "limited" thought seeks to avoid fear and confusion, not understanding that it is itself 'fear and confusion' It has its traditional ways to escape and its attempts to substitute when these sensations present. But the question is, if there is no movement of thought in the event of these sensations, what happens? That is what we're experimenting with... to see what happens. If there is a goal or desire to get rid of or to transform the sensations (fear and confusion,for example) then that is the same old 'movement' of thought with the same old false duality. The huge understanding that I am the 'fear', that I am the 'confusion' is what can make 'staying with' the sensation possible? Not understanding that there will continue to be the resistance, substitutions and attempts to escape?

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #148
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote, citing K:
"If you begin to experiment with yourself, you will see a curious transformation taking place. In the moment of highest confusion there is clarity; in the moment of greatest fear there is love.

The original quote came the second public talk at the Ommen camp in 1938. Here is a quote from the third talk, when K seems to take up the issue again:

The motive power behind the will is fear, and when we begin to realize this, the mechanism of habit intervenes, offering new escapes, new hopes, new gods. Now it is at this precise moment, when the mind begins to interfere with the realization of fear, that there must be great awareness not to be drawn off, not to be distracted by the offerings of the intellect, for the mind is subtle and cunning. When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it.

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1936-1944-the-mirror-of-relationship/krishnamurti-the-mirror-of-relationship-36

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #149
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1491 posts in this forum Online

Clive Elwell wrote:
So why should this non-movement, non reaction if we can call it that, have such power of transformation?

That is the question that arose for me after reading K.'s statement. We know what happens in each of us when there is this resistance (movement of thought/time); the fear/confusion continues and the disturbance eventually subsides ...but we don't 'know' what happens when there is not this counter movement.We can experiment with this whenever these sensations are felt. Not as a method to counteract them as Tom is warning against, but to see just what does take place. But a certain 'quickness' is necessary regarding the 'not naming' and seeing oneself go into 'escape mode...' because there is a lot of resistance to not going down one's traditional paths of escape.

I just read the quote you put above, thank you.

K.."Now it is at this precise moment, when the mind begins to interfere with the realization of fear, that there must be great awareness not to be drawn off, not to be distracted by the offerings of the intellect, for the mind is subtle and cunning. When there is only fear without any hope of escape, in its darkest moments, in the utter solitude of fear, there comes from within itself, as it were, the light which shall dispel it."

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 15 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 #150
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5344 posts in this forum Offline

And again at the end of the fourth talk of that series:

If you integrally, with your whole being, understand this process, then in the midst of this flame of suffering, when there is no desire to escape, to overcome, out of this very confusion there arises a new comprehension spontaneously springing up out of the soil of fear itself.

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1936-1944-the-mirror-of-relationship/krishnamurti-the-mirror-of-relationship-37

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